What is the seller's safety with PayPal and other payments.

[Roberta]

Riv content:  I'll be listing a Riv soon.  Lots of us sell bikes.

What is the seller's safety in getting paid with a cashiers check, PayPal, Zelle, cash, other options?  I''ll be listing my complete bike here and on CL, so likely I'll be selling to a stranger.  I'd want to protect myself again someone taking my bike and then, somehow, I wouldn't get the funds.

When I bought a bike from a list member, we met in person, I paid him with PayPal, he accepted the money and then I took the bike.

Roberta

[Joe Bernard]

Hi Roberta! 

I don't know anything about seller protection stuff so I'll let others chime in on that, but the way I've always done it over 20 years here and on the BOB is the buyer pays for the bike then I ship. I've always bought stuff this way, too, which can be a little nerve-wracking for the buyer but this is a small group of folks who've built a lot of trust over the years. I wouldn't do that on Craigslist as the buyer, but if someone there wants give you the money to ship just tell them the dollars have to be securely in your account and cleared first. 

The easiest for me is PayPal, the money shows up in my account right away and that baby is in a box and out the door! 

Joe Bernard

[Eric Daume]

PayPal has two modes, Friends & Family and Goods and Services. G&S charges a fee to the seller, I think 3%, but offers some protection for both parties. F&F doesn’t offer any protection. I’ve heard of cases where the buyer paid in F&F and then retracted the payment after they got the part. 

Eric

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[Joe Bernard]

Make sure you pull your payment from PayPal into your bank account right away. 

On Monday, March 8, 2021 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-8 Eric Daume wrote:

PayPal has two modes, Friends & Family and Goods and Services. G&S charges a fee to the seller, I think 3%, but offers some protection for both parties. F&F doesn’t offer any protection. I’ve heard of cases where the buyer paid in F&F and then retracted the payment after they got the part. 

Eric

On Monday, March 8, 2021, Roberta <rcha...@gmail.com> wrote:

Riv content:  I'll be listing a Riv soon.  Lots of us sell bikes.

What is the seller's safety in getting paid with a cashiers check, PayPal, Zelle, cash, other options?  I''ll be listing my complete bike here and on CL, so likely I'll be selling to a stranger.  I'd want to protect myself again someone taking my bike and then, somehow, I wouldn't get the funds.

When I bought a bike from a list member, we met in person, I paid him with PayPal, he accepted the money and then I took the bike.

Roberta

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[Shoji Takahashi]

Hi Roberta,

Cash is best. I've done transactions with RBW listers (who are "known listers") via check.

I was under the impression that PayPal G&S is more favorable to the buyer than seller-- but I haven't looked at it recently. Also, note that PayPal submits tax forms if your sales exceed a certain amount. As it's the sale of a used item, it does qualify for IRS exemptions, but documentation could be a pain. 

Good luck!

shoji

Arlington MA

[Dave S]

I've been selling a lot of things online during the pandemic and the seller protections are very minimal across the board.  It seems like most of the payment services treat individuals like businesses who just have to accept some amount of loss due to damage, theft, etc.  I've had: 

• issues with buyers claiming something didnt work, return it (my shipping cost both ways) only to find it works perfectly upon its return.  
• freight damage from fedex ground (purchased through shipbikes) that resulted in weeks of runaround with claims.  Fedex actually picked the bike up, brought it back to their facility and weighed it, verified it was "light" and then returned it to me.  All the seller wanted was a credit for missing parts that fell out of the box when it was destroyed.  He ended up saying "forget it" and I gave a full refund.
• Right now I'm dealing with a chainring that went missing (USPS) after shipment.  USPS told us to wait because things are backed up. Now we're past the USPS claim window, but not past the Paypal claim window.  Not sure how this ends.

None of these seem to be malicious but all the payment systems definitely favor the buyer and most all of the risk is on the seller.

On Monday, March 8, 2021 at 2:29:26 PM UTC-5 Eric Daume wrote:

PayPal has two modes, Friends & Family and Goods and Services. G&S charges a fee to the seller, I think 3%, but offers some protection for both parties. F&F doesn’t offer any protection. I’ve heard of cases where the buyer paid in F&F and then retracted the payment after they got the part. 

Eric

On Monday, March 8, 2021, Roberta <rcha...@gmail.com> wrote:

Riv content:  I'll be listing a Riv soon.  Lots of us sell bikes.

What is the seller's safety in getting paid with a cashiers check, PayPal, Zelle, cash, other options?  I''ll be listing my complete bike here and on CL, so likely I'll be selling to a stranger.  I'd want to protect myself again someone taking my bike and then, somehow, I wouldn't get the funds.

When I bought a bike from a list member, we met in person, I paid him with PayPal, he accepted the money and then I took the bike.

Roberta

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[Eric Norris]

Roberta:

I’ve never had a problem buying or selling using PayPal. I would never, ever take a check of any kind, cashiers or otherwise. 

Craigslist offers advice on how to avoid being scammed: https://www.craigslist.org/about/scams 

Among their recommendations: “Don’t accept cashier/certified checks or money orders"

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

[David Person]

The lead article in latest issue of Adventure Cycling magazine is about buying a used bike.  There is a section on "How to Pay".  Several methods are mentions.  The section on PayPal mentions that as a seller you can send the buyer an invoice on PayPal, which adds add'l safeguard (I suppose in the form of documentation should a dispute arise).  Purchase Protection is automatically included when Goods & Services is used (3.7% fee charged to seller). 

[Minh]

most everyone has it covered, paypal generally covers the buyer more than the seller, if you are selling remotely its really your only option so a little bit of due dilligence is warranted, like someone thats active in the list etc.  

when i sold my stable a few months ago (5 bikes in a month), it was in person, so i accepted pretty much anything, usually Venmo or Zelle--Venmo there is a little bit of risk for chargebacks, Zelle i'm told cannot be taken back.  either form once its in you app you are fine.  and ofc you still have option of cash!   i would not accept any form of check unless you do it at the PAYERS bank and they cash it on the spot--but in that case why cant they pull it out in cash!

On Monday, March 8, 2021 at 1:40:48 PM UTC-5 Roberta wrote:

[Hugh Smitham]

Eric,

I know somewhere in the back of my mind this has been a concern but this is a possibility with F&F. Thanks for making this point.

Hugh 

On Monday, March 8, 2021 at 11:29:26 AM UTC-8 Eric Daume wrote:

PayPal has two modes, Friends & Family and Goods and Services. G&S charges a fee to the seller, I think 3%, but offers some protection for both parties. F&F doesn’t offer any protection. I’ve heard of cases where the buyer paid in F&F and then retracted the payment after they got the part. 

Eric

On Monday, March 8, 2021, Roberta <rcha...@gmail.com> wrote:

Riv content:  I'll be listing a Riv soon.  Lots of us sell bikes.

What is the seller's safety in getting paid with a cashiers check, PayPal, Zelle, cash, other options?  I''ll be listing my complete bike here and on CL, so likely I'll be selling to a stranger.  I'd want to protect myself again someone taking my bike and then, somehow, I wouldn't get the funds.

When I bought a bike from a list member, we met in person, I paid him with PayPal, he accepted the money and then I took the bike.

Roberta

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[Joel S]

Roberta, I’m not sure if paypal friends and family offers protection, it should be a non reversible transaction, you need to call .  Once payment is made on non friends and family paypal, I believe the buyer only has 1-2 hours to reverse the charge, and they can always file a dispute.  You can call paypal for more info.  Take a lot of pictures, both before and during packing as well as keeping your listing with those photos.  A cashiers check you need to wait for it to clear prior to shipping.  Cash is good face to face but get a pen at staples to make sure the bills are legit.  

I’ve sold once on CL for cash, not an expensive bike.  If you use eBay the buyer can always try to file a dispute so care needs to be taken.  

Not sure this is helpful, I prefer to sell on list, sell a bit cheaper as you know most people ob these lists but that is not a guarantee.

I sold a complete Bleriot on eBay some years ago with no issues but every transaction can be different. 

Good luck

Joel

On Monday, March 8, 2021 at 1:40:48 PM UTC-5 Roberta wrote:

[Joe M.]

With PayPal, if they pay you as “friends and family,” you receive the full payment amount with no fees taken out. They are offered no protection by PayPal and they must trust that you will be sending them the bike. If they choose “goods and services” when paying, you pay a fee but PayPal may offer them money back if you don’t ship the bike. 

As far as sellers protection goes, I never ship until the money is in my account. I do not accept personal checks or cashiers checks. No checks of any kind. These days everyone has Venmo, PayPal or Zelle. If they don’t, I don’t sell to them. 

And of course, cash is king. I only meet people in high traffic public places like Starbucks or bank parking lots. 

I can easily get a sense of someone’s legitimacy by talking with them. If I have a bad feeling about someone or a transaction then I abort. 

And if someone messages you on Craigslist asking for your phone number, NEVER give it to them. They can use it to steal your identity. 
When it comes time to meet with someone I ask for their number and I use a Google voice number to communicate with them. 

On Monday, March 8, 2021 at 10:40:48 AM UTC-8 Roberta wrote:

[Philip Barrett]

Note that transferring the funds out of Paypal and into your bank account does not protect you from Paypal reacquiring those funds back from your account in a dispute. That's why they have you "link" your bank account rather than it just set up as a direct deposit.

[Peter Adler]

PayPal now has a third option, which I discovered last night when I paid an RBWer for a shirt: The buyer pays through Friends & Family, but pays an additional fee on their own end to preserve their buyer protection (e.g., seller pockets money then sends damaged product/product not meeting presale description/sends no merch at all). This displaces the standard seller concern (the percentage comes out of my end!) while allaying some of the buyer's equally valid concerns when dealing with a seller they don't know IRL (how do I know you're not going to rob me?)

Most of the voiced complaints re PayPal/Venmo/Apple Pay etc. around here are those of sellers who think they've gotten burned, or who fear they might get burned. As a person who's been exclusively on the buyer end for 25 years, and who is still wrestling with eBay/PayPal over a $750 laptop that was allegedly "delivered" by FedEx (where the only evidence for a delivery is a BS FedEx delivery/tracking notice - I was standing on my porch when FedEx claims to have "delivered" it, and there was no truck), for which the commercial seller refuses to accept any liability (even though they said they didn't trust FedEx, for obviously good reason)...may I say that I think there are two sides to this issue, and I'm glad that someone with muscle is at least willing to pretend to contend for my interest. Because otherwise, I'd be out the price of a lot of bicycles, with nothing to show for it and nowhere to seek redress.

And let's not ignore that in a lot of metro areas, there's a long history of attractive Craigslist ads as bait, placed simply to set buyers up to be mugged for the cash brought as payment for non-existant goods. In San Francisco (CL Central), the problem got so bad that the SFPD had a setup for awhile where exchange of payment/goods for CL purchases could happen under police supervision, in the parking lots of police stations.

Sure, seller beware. But buyer beware, too. There's a reason that the latter one is a commonplace saying, and the former one isn't.

As for "hearing of cases", I think that's a show-your-work thing. As I read it, once I send money F&F, it's gone; I have no way to get it back, whether the seller makes good on the transaction or not. Members of this group should note that every PayPal payment I've made to anyone here has always been F&F; this reflects not so much my trust of people's inherent decency (only people who don't know me would think I'm like that) as my pinchpennyness, my fatalism, and my hope for intolerable social censure in the event the transaction goes south.

One thing to consider is, if a seller isn't willing to pay the Goods & Services fee to offer protection to a buyer (a fee which they should be incorporating into the total sales price, just as would happen with a shipping fee), why should a buyer trust them? Personally, if I insisted on buying a big-ticket item from a buyer too far away for me to pound on their front door who refuses to go the G&S route, I'd bite the bullet and pay the F&F protection fee, purely for my own safety.

Peter Adler

several times bit in

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Hugh Smitham]

As a seller on eBay I got burned. Sold a Sony camera and shipped to an address the buyer requested. It turned out that eBay recommends never send a package to any address other than the one on the eBay buyers account. The buyer paid via CC through PayPal and opened a claim that they never bought the item. eBay washed their hands of it since as far as they were concerned the transaction was successfully completed. It went to PayPal and the credit card company for an investigation. After 30 days the CC company ruled in favor of the CC holder claiming it was fraud. As the seller I lost close to a thousand. At the time I was a infrequent seller and really wasn't versed in the intricacies of the eBay market place. I haven't sold anything on eBay since.

I think in this age it's Buyer and seller beware. There are scoundrel's on both sides of the fence. 

In terms of this and the iBoB group I have never had a bad experience. I hope that remains the case. I have always offered PayPal as the method of payment with a friends and family designation believing we are on the honor system and saving folks some money. If a buyer want the G&S protection than I'll pass that fee onto them. 

Hugh

Los Angeles, CA  

[Justin Kennedy (Brooklyn, NY)]

I've had several successful bikes and parts buys-and-sells on Craigslist (and here!) and typically use Paypal, Venmo, or cash. But definitely beware. Someone in NYC recently was selling a Crust Romanceur complete bike and had it stolen by a prospective buyer who took it for a "test ride" and never came back. I've also heard of companies being on the hook for thousands of dollars in merchandise after selling via PayPal and the buyer claiming fraud. 

[Ryan Nute]

For this group and a couple other's I'll ship and collect after buyer gets it okay.  Just how I do it.  I've never gotten burned.

Ryan

On Monday, March 8, 2021 at 1:14:53 PM UTC-8 Joe M. wrote: