How do I know when a saddle fits?

[Emily Guise]

Hello folks, I come to the group with a dilemma. I've never had a saddle that I could ride for longer than 20 miles comfortably. I've always ended up with sore sit bones, numb soft tissue, or both. This has really limited my ability to go on longer trips and after my five day ride on the C&O canal trail last Sept, it was more apparent than ever I need to find a saddle that won't hurt.

I've tried dozens of saddles over the last 15 years- leather, plastic, cutouts, no cutouts, wide, medium, softer, harder, you name it. :( Most of the saddles that have stayed on my bikes for longer than a month have a central cut out, are on the wider side, and plastic. They're good for around town, but that's it. I've never had my sit bones measured.

It occurred to me recently that because I've never had a truly comfortable long-distance saddle, I have no idea how one feels. So I figured I'd ask the group. How did The One saddle feel for you? Did it "disappear"? Was it love at first sit? Did it need to be adjusted a lot before finding the ideal position? Is there a certain amount of miles you ride before it becomes uncomfortable?

I'd love to hear the group's collective wisdom so I know what to look for in the next saddle I try out. Thanks!

[George Schick]

Oh boy. There are so many variables that go into good saddle fit and comfort that I'm not sure where to begin.  One has to do with the type of shorts (or other garbs) which you wear to ride.  Many on this blog have talked about the thinner the padding in their shorts the more comfy the ride.  Then again, there is the matter of riding position.  If you are riding in a more upright position on a bike with bars that reach way back you will likely put more pressure and possibly friction on your groin area causing discomfort.  There are those who seem to like riding that way - kinda like a rolling leg press machine, putting lots and lots of pressure on the pedals with every stroke in a very high gear, maybe that's how they get by with it - but that's not normative with everyone.  And, of course, there's always the usually undiscussed issue of just how sensitive those lower bones (ischial tuberosity tissues}, and other skin and muscle tissues play a part. 

[Patrick Moore]

I'm sorry to hear that, but I am confident that you can find a solution. IME, saddle comfort depends as much on saddle setup -- height, setback, tilt -- and on body position when your ride -- thus bar shape and position -- as it does on saddle shape.

My own test is, "did I think about the saddle during my ride?" If I don't think about it on a ride of typical length, then I judge the saddle a success. Of course, what "disappears" for 20 or 30 miles may come back with a vengeance after 50 or 100 miles, so one has to take into account all of one's riding.

Perhaps you might consider getting a professional bike fit? Really, if I were in your situation, I'd consider this money well spent.

Good luck, and let us know what happens.

Patrick "Original Flites and only original Flites" Moore

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I also feel that if I did not think about my saddle or anything that touches it during a ride then I have a successful saddle fit. I ride with no padded shorts so I can tell when a saddle doesn’t feel right.

On my saddles that fit best I can feel pressure on my sit bones but nowhere else. My understanding is that saddles with more cushion are actually worse for comfort since you sink into them and that crushes parts that should not be crushed.  

When you find a saddle that works be sure to buy a supply of them because manufacturers tend to keep changing things and what works for you may be gone when you need a replacement.

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 20, 2024, at 4:18 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Will Boericke]

This is a tough one.  My personal experience has been that I can get along with almost any saddle.  There are shapes that I like better for longer efforts (I like flat and narrow, so Fizik for plastic or Brooks Pro for leather, Ergons on my mtb), but most saddles are tolerable.  I think we all know the foundational secret to saddle comfort is some base level of hours in the saddle, but I imagine that is not your issue.

Which leads me to believe that there's something else at play here - a fit issue.  I wonder if getting a bike fit might steer you in some clearer direction than what we can offer here.

Will

[Bill Lindsay]

I will second Patrick Moore's recommendation to consult with a fitter.  Dozens of saddles over 15 years and never being able to do a 20-mile ride pain-free?  That's indicative of something else going on, IMO.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Roberta]

The Philadelphia Trek store can measure sits bones. Perhaps there is one near you to give you some direction?

I prefer a flat top like the B68 to a rounder top B17. I also have wide sits bones, so B17 too narrow for me.   I tilt the saddle nose up, so I’m sitting on the flat back part of the saddle.  Otherwise I slide to the front sitting on the nose part, and that is very irritating.  Where are you sitting on the saddle?

Also take notice where the seams of your underwear are when you’re riding as sit bones on seams are irritating. 

Roberta

Philadelphia 

[Noah Hirschl]

Here is my experience, entirely anecdata.

I used to ride lots a decade ago, and remember a fair amount of discomfort with saddles on long days. I really only got back into long distance riding in the past couple of years, but have not experienced discomfort much anymore, except sometimes when adapting after not riding for a while. 

In the interim, I started lifting weights casually, including moderately heavy squats, and have added a bit of muscle mass to my booty that way. I have often wondered if having more muscle mass back there helps. I find myself often repositioning over the course of a long ride, moving where I'm sitting slightly and flexing/moving my butt muscles to find comfort. So perhaps in addition to a bike fit,  you could try that, if that's not something you've tried before (potential side effect: all the wonderful health benefits of consistently doing weighted squats!).

Noah

Brookline, VT

[Anthony Holden]

Pain is an obvious sign that something is wrong. And I think that's one reason why it's easy to tell when a saddle ISN'T a fit. But what feels right can be so subjective.

Obviously Riv and Grant are big proponents of Brooks. I've had several Brooks saddles, and not every one feels the same. I've had B17s that were stiff as a board despite many years and miles of riding, and then more recently the B68 that I got with my Appaloosa that felt broken in from the first ride. With saddles, like anything else on a bike, YMMV. Despite the variety of experiences I've had with Brooks saddles, I've felt they were all comfortable in their own way. The key for me has been finding the positioning that works for a particular saddle on a particular bike. Moving it little by little to find the sweet spot. If I feel myself sliding up the nose as I pedal, I consider tilting the nose upward a little. If my knees feel out of plumb with my cranks, I shift it forward or aft a hair to find a position that works better. It's kind of like dialing in tire pressure. Just keep fiddling with it until you find what works for you and the kind of riding you do.

Any kind of pain, especially lingering pain (like ongoing numbness post-ride or a persistent nerve twinge, for example) is an indication that the saddle or its positioning isn't working for you. Normal pain that's derived from effort, howeve, is to be expected with any saddle. Riding a bike is never a pain-free activity in that sense. Using your muscles, putting pressure on your wrists, feet, and sit bones is going to cause some discomfort. One thing that helped me a ton is realizing that no bike rider (pro, enthusiast, or regular fella like me) is ever riding for any significant distance without changing up their posture. Moving around on the bike is normal. Shifting weight, pedaling while standing, moving hand positions--all these things can affect how a saddle feels for me. Especially, like you say, when the distance is over 20 miles or more. Butt toughness also tends to build up for me over the season. I'm always a little sore after not riding for a while. If I've been riding a lot lately, I can do more miles without a sore tush.

Don't know if any of that helps at all, but hopefully it gives you something to think about. I'm curious about others' experiences.

[Wesley]

On my most comfortable saddle, I generally start noticing irritation of the skin over my sit bones after about 5 hours. Obviously, that's only an issue on long rides. This is a well-broken-in Brooks, but it was fairly comfortable since new (I worked some flex into the sit bone areas by massaging it with mink oil.) I am not expecting to ever have a saddle that is painless no matter how long I ride, and I generally don't wear padded shorts.

-Wes

[Chris Halasz]

How I know a saddle fits, triangulated: 

i. First off, the most comfortable saddle for hours-long rides is not *necessarily* (in fact, rarely) plush and comfortable as soon as I sit on it. My favorite saddles (B68 for upright, B17 Champion Special for when less than upright) feel just OK when I get on the bike, and my sitbones are in the 13cm range, and I weigh around 165lbs. Raced bikes in the 70s and 80s; now I stop and smell the flowers. 

ii. Because it fells just OK, I'm led to think "should I be trying out that other saddle someone else recommended"? Then I remember I've tried just about every major brand out there in the past several decades, and then, after an hour or so, I completely forget about the saddle. 

iii. After the ride - shortly thereafter, and the next day following a several-hours long ride: no latent issues - no discomfort, chafing, whatever. Just nirvana of the nether region. 

I always give a new saddle at *least* a few weeks of riding before judgment. Say, a minimum dozen good rides. I keep an Allen key magnetically attached to the frame for quick and easy tip/tilt adjustments while on a ride, and experiment with extremes! My B68 tilt looks pretty much like the photo on the RBW site for the same saddle, maybe angled just a bit more. 

Agree with all that an objective bike fit peer review is not a bad idea. Hope you can find someone who understands bike fit from a not necessarily racy bike shop, unless it's racy you want! 

Cheers 

Chris 

[Linda G]

    You write that you have tried many saddles but were any of them woman specific? Through a lifetime of touring and casual cycling I never had a saddle that I would describe as comfortable until I found the Terry Liberator X. By comfortable I mean that I just don't notice it when riding. Long ago I ran for exercise, before there were running shoes for women. I would get blisters on my heels and sides of my feet because the heels and whole shoe was too wide and not shaped for my feet. 

    My dilemma now is finding a saddle for more upright riding that is comfortable and also looks good on the Platypus I am building up. What I think would be ideal is the Brooks B68s but it is not being made. Rivendell sells the regular B68 if you buy a frame but I have learned that I need a short saddle. I have bought a B67s and will see how it works out, though I don't like the extra weight of the springs.

On Wednesday, March 20, 2024 at 1:00:24 PM UTC-7 Emily Guise wrote:

[Sarah Carlson]

Hi Linda,

I "temporarily" put my B67 on my Platypus and I think it's going to live there now. The springs make a squeaky noise, and I take this bike on club rides so sometimes it gets some comments, but I am so comfortable now I don't know that I need to "upgrade." There are ways to make the squeaky noise stop but now it's just part of my ride and makes me laugh a little bit. I thought about switching out to the B68 because I understand we can just buy one off the rack from Riv now, and this is my "fast" bike, but I don't feel like I need to anymore. I can ride much longer and don't find myself as limited by butt pain on my rides. I hope it works out for you!

Sarah

[Bill Lindsay]

Hi Linda

In my searches for a B67, at one point I accidentally bought one on eBay, not realizing it's a B67S.  So, I was stuck with a woman's shaped B67.  I tried deploying that saddle on a build for my wife, but she didn't like the build.  That bike is sitting up at my cabin in the mountains as a guest bike.  I could retrieve that saddle next time I'm up in gold country, if you would be interested.  It's essentially new, and it's honey in color.  Let me know if you'd like me to photograph it on my next trip "upstairs".  I'd be looking for $100 shipped to remove it.  

Bill Lindsay

On Wednesday, March 27, 2024 at 8:39:15 AM UTC-7 Linda G wrote:

[John Dewey]

Roberta, have you experimented with a cut-out saddle? 

Jock

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[Emily Guise]

Hey all, thanks so much for your insights! I'm local to Portland OR, and there is a bike fitter in town, Pedal PT, who also does physical therapy. I've been wondering if I should get a fit with them, and it seems like I should look into it more seriously.

My travel/adventure/distance bike is a Bike Friday, and that's the one I'd get fit. I do tend to like the flatter saddles, and usually ride with the nose titled up. A challenge is that I have very long arms and legs but a shorter torso. Anyone with a similar body type have any advice?

I have tried women's specific saddles- I tried a Terry Liberator for a while, but it was just SO hard, even though the cutout was fantastic. The same with the Brookses, I always felt like I was sitting on the metal edge or the leather was as unforgiving as wood and as uncomfortable. I'm trying out Riv's new plastic saddle on my Platypus right now. It's sort of comfortable but also feels maybe not quite wide enough. I'll have to give it a few more weeks.

[Roberta]

(Jock--you probably meant to address this to Emily, but people who might be researching might find my comments helpful.)

Yes and I liked the Selle Anatomica one I tried.  Still, it was too narrow.  I could feel the saddle between my sitsbones, not under them.

What's the guidelines for saddle width--sitsbones distance + 20 cm?     Whatever it is, my "perfect number" on paper was more than the 170cm of the B17 (I think "perfect number" was 180cm).  That's why I was so interested in the new Riv saddle https://www.rivbike.com/products/saddle-182-55-plastic-vegan-comfortable  at 182 cm.   Right now I'm riding B68's and I have a newly reissued B72 to put on my Betty Foy.  I ride fairly upright, but not bolt upright.

I think Emily should experiment with the cutouts.  I have a feeling she leans more than me (she said "soft tissue" issues). 

[Linda G]

Thank you for this offer but I am looking for a B68s, not a B67s ( which I already have). If you do indeed have the non-spring S version in honey brown I may be interested. I need to get the bike put together and try out the B67s and be sure the shape works before I change. The rain up here in PNW is holding me up from getting the inside of the frame sprayed outdoors, or at least that's my excuse! So no hurry.

[Linda G]

If the shape works on the liberator x they do have a gel version if it's too hard. I wear padded shorts if I am going any distance. I believe you can get padded underwear to go under regular shorts. Terry makes a city riding saddle  called the Cite X, or at least they used to. It's wider and softer. I have one and it is very comfortable for more upright riding but in my view it is ugly. I want my upright bike to be nice-looking for the cruising around bike paths I am doing these days. For me there is an artistic dimension to building up a bike. I imagine that many on this list would agree considering the attractive bikes I see in people's pictures.

[ascpgh]

Emily, I have dealt with roughly your sort of physiological dimensioning my whole riding life and currently have three variations of coping, each with saddles that bear varying results. Those results have inseparable connection to how well each of the bikes they are on fits me. 

My commuter is a stock Surly Disc Trucker "box bike". I added a Brooks B-17, pedals , Nitto RM 013 handlebar, dyno hub/ lights and a shorter a stem. The frame size that produced the best reach to the handlebars required a long  extension of the seat post and would have required a pretty high angle stem for those bars to be level with the seat, my comfort zone, and would also need significant setback dimension of the seat post head. The frame size that gives the best pedaling position requires a short stem to keep me from reaching, sort of. I still feel like I reach for the bars on that bike and do not ride it more than 20 miles. Even on the bigger size I find my legs drive me to slide back on the seat, onto the cantle (that metal thing) for many climbs before I pedal out of the saddle. Lots of compromises but it's my 14 hour lock up bike.

My Rivendell Rambouillet was the best stock bike fit to my body I'd ever experienced and prevented me from going custom. Grant envisioned it as a long hours in the saddle sporty/light touring bike in the French audax/randonnour-inspired design for comfort over hours of riding. Shorter top tube than seat tube, with 2° upslope and 2 cm extended top head tube lug all conspired to provide this. It all conspires to fitting me well. It was a stock build kit from Riv with the B-17, RM 013 bars, I added the fenders, and changed the derailleurs, shifters and brakes. I do pedal from the saddle quite a bit more than others in groups before getting out of it and standing for hills. I still find myself sliding back on the seat for a rearward position to get some pushing forward on the pedal strokes when going uphill. That puts me on that cantle again, less than on the commuter but with the bars in more comfortable reach.

I finally did go custom to for the sort of riding I have available and enjoy from my front door. I've refined what I look for in saddles, acknowledging that I do stay on the saddle across more terrain than others, scooting rearward for that pushing bit where others pop up, pedaling out of their saddles. That fore and aft position range has made me a connoisseur of saddle tops that have a platform of surface wide enough for my sit bones but also retaining that in the longitudal dimension of my back and forth positioning. I want that platform to be level and I don't want extra material rubbing my legs. 

I am using a Rivet Pearl with cut out on my custom bike. The cut out lets the centerline of the leather "hammock" between the nose and cantle without the same amount of weight my sit bones applied to those spots that breaks in the points where they do bear weight. Without the cut out, that leather remains a linear high ridge from front to back where the less skeletal portions of my rear end are perched. I thought I had picked perfectly when I chose the Rivet Diablo but after three months' riding and several centuries everything was breaking in nicely except for that ridge line down the center and it was creating discomfort. They were quick to respond to my issue and sent the the cut out version of the Pearl which has been perfect ever since. 

Hope this is of some help to your situation. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Anthony Holden]

+1 for the Rivet Pearl. I've got one on a Soma Double Cross, and the version with the cutout is indeed an excellent fit for several positions fore and aft!

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[Steven Seelig]

A lot of great input here.  I think I now know how individual an issue this can be just from the comments.

For me, just recently it has turned out that all those Brooks C17s I have ON ALL MY BIKEs are no longer working for me.  This may be TMI but it turns out that because of their shape, my sitbone locates a bit forward of the rear of the saddle and that causes paid for me as cocsysx bashes into the raises rear of the saddle.  Not really a problem if I am riding on flat ground.  When I do need more umps, and I push toward the back of the saddle, that is when I am enduring pain.  I am working with a physical therapist to figure out if this is because of a weak pelvic floor.

What I have discovered is that the whole saddle business is rapidly evolving, with such things as 3D printed saddles, men's specific Terry seats (from a company that made its name making women's saddles), the major players like Trek and Specialized have actual heat mapping that would help explain your hot spots - and those are just a few examples.  For me, I have learned that many of the newer saddle that have gaps for your dainty bits also have space to the rear so that your sitbone may reside on the saddle while the rear part of your rear may hang out back.  I am testing saddles with that profile and things look promising.

No, I am not selling all those Brooks quite yet - don't get any ideas.

Steve Seelig, District of Columbia