Which Rivendell frame would you resurrect?

[John G.]

The recent Bombadil sightings here and on Instagram have me thinking of all the Rivendell frames I wanted and never purchased. So, let’s play (or replay) the Rivendell Resurrection game: pick one discontinued frame you would like to see back in production. If you really, really wanna name a MUSA version of a current MIT frame, I guess that’s ok.

Disclaimer: this is only intended to wax nostalgic at the ones that got away. I’m not here to criticize the current lineup.

My vote: the Legolas!

[phil k]

I definitely miss the MUSA Hunqapillar.

[Joe Bernard]

Quickbeam

[Steven Sweedler]

All Rounder w/26” wheels

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 8:43 PM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Quickbeam

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[Steve Palincsar]

But with the same tire width as original?  Or would you rather be able to fit some 2.3" RTPs in there?

On 7/16/19 9:07 PM, Steven Sweedler wrote:

All Rounder w/26” wheels

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Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Philip Williamson]

Pumpkin orange cyclocross bikes!
First Rivendell I fell in love with.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[S]

Legolas.

[J L]

Im with Joe - The Quickbeam. If I had money to buy a Rivendell custom I would ask for a Quickbeam. 

Jason

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[Joe Bernard]

I almost said All Rounder, too, but that's really just asking for a MUSA Atlantis with a Rivendell decal.

[Steven Sweedler]

Some of the early ones fit 2.35, and that would be my preference.  Steve

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[Mark in Beacon]

Hillibikes!

[Ryan M.]

I’d like to see the Yves Gomez come back...that was a stylish frame.

[jandrews]

Canti-Rom

[Wally Estrella]

I'll throw in a third on a Quickbeam vote.  Just make'm so they can take up to 50ish wide tire w/ fenders.

On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 1:46:16 AM UTC-4, J L wrote:

Im with Joe - The Quickbeam. If I had money to buy a Rivendell custom I would ask for a Quickbeam. 

Jason

On Jul 16, 2019, at 10:28 PM, S <sbl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Legolas.

On Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 5:24:01 PM UTC-7, John G. wrote:

The recent Bombadil sightings here and on Instagram have me thinking of all the Rivendell frames I wanted and never purchased. So, let’s play (or replay) the Rivendell Resurrection game: pick one discontinued frame you would like to see back in production. If you really, really wanna name a MUSA version of a current MIT frame, I guess that’s ok.

Disclaimer: this is only intended to wax nostalgic at the ones that got away. I’m not here to criticize the current lineup.

My vote: the Legolas!

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[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I'd love to see the Silver Gen. Quickbeam in Chameleon or Hunqa Green.

I wasn't aware of Riv during the QB era but discovered them at the tail end of the SimpleOne.  Had S1 been available in large sizes that would have likely been my first Rivendell.

I now own a 65cm Clem H as my one an only Riv and absolutely love it but also have 3 other frames that have served various roles all inspired by QB/S1.  I really wanted Sr. Frank Jones to be available in larger sizes but completely understand why it wasn't and didn't have the budget for it anyway.

I've been bike-less for months due to work/life and a recent move but as we get settled in I now find myself itching to get back in the saddle asap and thinking about bikes again.

If a new 68cm QB or similar were re-released I may not be able to resist, though I admittedly haven't pursued one secondhand since they appear to have generally retained their resale value and I'm on a ridiculously tight budget.  I also truthfully envision something more like a theoretical 64cm Appaloosa with Frank Jones track-outs as a potential ideal SS complement to my Clem (think of a cross between QB and Deacon's Hunqabeam.)

Brian Cole

Lawrence, NJ

On Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 8:24:01 PM UTC-4, John G. wrote:

[Matt Beecher]

I feel blessed that I now have the Rivs I most wanted.

My most appreciated are the QB, Saluki, and old Atlantis. I would like to see their return, but understand it likely will not happen.

Some argued that the AHH was the same as the Saluki, but not in the larger sizes. I wanted 650b in a 60cm frame.

I look forward to Rivs future offerings and hope they eventually make a mixte for drop bars. The current generation is too long for me in my size.

Best regards,
Matt in Oswrgo, IL

[Bill Rhea]

I've got an original gray MUSA Hunqapillar, which I love. The only way to one-up this one would be the Bombadil (the first one with the diagatube connecting to mixte-like, mid-level chainstays). Gotta love that name, too, though I don't think Grant can use any more Tolkein names....

On Tuesday, July 16, 2019 at 5:24:01 PM UTC-7, John G. wrote:

[LBleriot]

People, people. C’mon. The orange Rambouillet is the one that should be on everybody’s list.

[Rocky B]

For me it’s the Wilbury. Those first-gen mixtes had great lines.

Rocky

[Joe Bernard]

It still exists. It's a Roadeo.

[Ginz]

Saluki with brazed ok center pulls (did that exist or did I imagine it?). And was it 26” wheels? If yes, then that.

[Chris L]

I have a first batch Taiwan built gray 54 Hunqapillar and I think the only possible improvement would be the newer 56cm Hunqapillar.   That's pretty much the perfect bike for me. 

[Craig Montgomery]

S. Sweedler wrote: 

        All Rounder w/26” wheels

S. Palincsar wrote:

     But with the same tire width as original?  Or would you rather be able to fit some 2.3" RTPs 

Craig writes now: 

        My '96 handles RTP's with room to spare. Remember Grant asking what size tire I would be running. I requested Gary Boulanger build it for widest tires he could. Must've had a "vision". It's Reynolds 753. Rides light and nimble compared to the Atlantis which to me rides like a Surly. I have also converted it to 650B. It's a gem in that configuration also. 

  

Craig in Tucson

 

 

 

[John G.]

If the Roadeo hadn’t recently been brought back, I would’ve said Roadeo instead of Legolas. I worship mine (but I wish it came in even sizes, instead of odd).

[Conway Bennett]

The best riding bike I own is a 650b Hunq. My second best is a 1994 Bridgestone XO-3. I guess I'd like some iteration of the early 26" A/R but I feel like the crust romanceur fits that niche. I have seriously thought of parlaying my Quickbeam and XO into a crust bike but I like rim brakes.

[Mike Godwin]

Whale John order a 62, and can I borrow it to check the size for me?

Bring back the AR, I need one in a larger size, and fit 650b wheels.

Mike SLO CA

On Thursday, July 18, 2019 at 5:52:32 AM UTC-7, John G. wrote:

[S]

Legolas or All Rounder, I think a lighter canti frame would be a good addition. Nothing in that spot right now. Atlantis, Gus, etc, are fairly heavy duty and AHH has limited tire clearance.

[C.J. Filip]

Legolas, Saluki without updates to geometry.  

At the very least more sets of decals for both!!

[Joe Bernard]

I want a short wheelbase flat toptube All Rounder with disc brakes. And a motor*

*this might be a callback to the latest Blahg 😬

[Andreas]

Legolas

[Michael Mazzie]

All rounder 650B for RTP...light tubing, low trail...

Mike Mazzie

A2

[ctifusion]

++ on the All Rounder with space for RTPs. I will say that Surly still makes the LHT for 26-inch wheels in all sizes with canti posts. The frame clearly lacks the magic of a Riv but mimics the All Rounder.

Also, any flat-top-tubed, 650b road bike.

Brynna

[Steven Sweedler]

From what I have heard, Surly now makes the 26” LHT up to 58cm.I was impressed that Surly did make the frame for both wheels sizes. 

Steve

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[stoker]

Hunq for sure!

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 6:50:02 AM UTC-7, ctifusion wrote:

++ on the All Rounder with space for RTPs. I will say that Surly still makes the LHT for 26-inch wheels in all sizes with canti posts. The frame clearly lacks the magic of a Riv but mimics the All Rounder.

You're at least the 3rd person to mention the 26" wheeled All-Rounder. Isn't that more or less an Atlantis, or at least the older version with shorter chainstays? I am in a fortunate position of having both a short chainstay Atlantis, and an original All-Rounder built with Reynolds 753 tubes. I don't know why, but I like my Atlantis better; the All-Rounder unfortunately sits around the house, all primmed with nowhere to go.

[Bill Lindsay]

It is interesting and not-all-that-surprising that the Legolas is so frequent.  It's the only racing bike Rivendell has ever made, so if you are strictly a bike-racer, and wanted a Rivendell to come back, then resurrecting the one and only Rivendell Racing Model is the natural choice.  All other Rivendells are unracing models, so the UnRacer vote is split.  Racers overwhelmingly vote Legolas

Bill-sometime-bike-racer-and-Legolas-owner Lindsay  

El Cerrito, CA

[S]

I wish Rivendell would bring back the Legolas not because I am a racer but rather because I want a bike for day rides on mixed surfaces. For this purpose, the Atlantis is overbuilt and the AHH lacks tire clearance. A 650b Legolas would be even better.

[mark s hall]

In a New York second: Redwood.

[Fullylugged]

To me, Rivendell was about making bikes that had "extra" which is not immediately noticed by the average eye. Grant enjoyed selling bikes that were better than they had to be. The epitome of that seems to be Rambouillet. Double tapered seat stays, un-dimpled chain stays, fillet brazed dropouts, ornate lugs, heat treated and non heat treated tubes used to maximize ride quality, and a very nice paint job. It represents the high art of Japanese bikes doing French brevet style better than the French could.

I like my '95 Road (pre Road Standard, which came later) better for longer rides. It's light (18.5 lbs with a leather saddle) and lively and has great handling, but doesn't have that same all around character of style as Ram does. When I just want a bike to noodle around on, I always take the Ram.

[Craig Montgomery]

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 4:41 PM S <sbl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wish Rivendell would bring back the Legolas not because I am a racer but rather because I want a bike for day rides on mixed surfaces. For this purpose, the Atlantis is overbuilt and the AHH lacks tire clearance. A 650b Legolas would be even better. 

This kinda takes the thread on a wee bit of a tangent, but if any of you are seriously thinking like sblain here there are plenty of lightweight vintage frames equal to the Legolas in build quality available. And many if not most are 650B convertible. I found a 60's Dave Russell (English of course) for $250 on Ebay a couple of years back. Oh man what a 650B conversion it made: lightweight, low-mid trail, and within DiaCompe 750 reach. Rides like a dream. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/albums/72157690991749493 

Craig in Tucson

 

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[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 4:41:39 PM UTC-7, S wrote:

I wish Rivendell would bring back the Legolas not because I am a racer but rather because I want a bike for day rides on mixed surfaces. For this purpose, the Atlantis is overbuilt and the AHH lacks tire clearance. A 650b Legolas would be even better.

I'm curious as to what kind of mixed surfaces you ride on, such that the AHH lacks tire clearance, because the AHH is supposed to fit tires up to 44mm wide (san fenders). That means UCI race-spec 33mm cyclocross tires will fit. I've ridden 38mm wide Compass Barlow Pass tires on pretty rough trails, and didn't feel like the tires were holding me back.

[S]

Really, I am just describing my dream Rivendell. Light, 650b, cantis.

Do I *need* to be able to run 50s? No. Do I want the option? Yes.

[Mark in Beacon]

Beautiful bike, Craig. I agree that the Legolas, while an awesome bicycle, is probably not that hard to come close to replicating, especially if you don't insist on the cantilever brake feature (if you do insist, no 650b converting unless you are handy with a torch). I recently built up my Legolas simulacrum from a Huffy/Raleigh 531 cyclocross frame and fork.

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[Bill Lindsay]

Understood.  That bike you are describing would be really appealing, but it's most certainly not a Legolas.  There are a number of vendors who will sell you a 27.5 x 2.2" road bike, so you can run Thunder Burts or 48mm Rene Herse tires.  Rivendell has the 650B Atlantis, which I own and absolutely adore, and I have the Thunder Burts on-hand to put onto it soon .  I perceive no penalties for it being "overbuilt". It's not uncomfortable for being stiff, becuase it has huge cushy tires. It doesn't push back on my legs when I pedal it, like the planing folks insist, at least not to the extent that I can notice it.  It's a couple pounds heavier than a hypothetical 'dream Rivendell' frame.

Trust me I get the appeal of a 27.5x2.2" road bike.  I want one.  I was in Santa Barbara earlier this week and tried to schedule an appointment to visit Stinner Frameworks, because I wanted to check out the Refugio.  That thing looks really fun to ride. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Ryan M.]

I had a canti post Sam Hillborne with 650b before the gravel thing really took off...it was a great bike and would do what you seem to want. I kinda wish I never sold it.

The Legolas is a really nice cyclocross frame that you can actually race, so tire clearance would be an issue...plus it's going to be 700c to comply with race requirements. I'd like a Legolas (make it disc and I'd like it even more. lol) I remember reading maybe on this board that the Legolas was like the Roadeo but with canti posts...but I'm sure there are some geometry differences going on being one is a cyclocross frame and one is a road frame.

[John G.]

Mark, your Huffy is one of my favorite bikes on the Bob/RBW lists. Remind me how you came by it?

[S]

Yeah, I am drifting off the point of the thread. To be clear, I would be more than happy if Riv brought back the Legolas exactly as it was.

The Atlantis is great, I wish I had one, and it isn’t overbuilt for its intended purpose, but it is overbuilt for me and what I do most of the time, a light rider with light loads.

And yes, you could sorta replicate the Legolas with other bikes, but still, the Legolas is a special bike. Big part of that is the style, the look, the paint and lugs. Hard to replicate that. For instance, I may buy a Black Mountain Monster Cross, very similar, but, for me anyway, it would be a utilitarian choice, it lacks that Riv magic.

[Bill Lindsay]

I have all three of those.  The Black Mountain Monster Cross is very different from the Legolas and very different from the Atlantis. 

The Black Mountain Monster Cross is a drop-bar rigid 29er mountain bike, in my view

The Legolas is a cyclocross racing bike in my view

The Atlantis is a 650b road-to-touring bike

Any of the three can be (and are) ridden on road rides that wander onto trails and they are all delightful and I have no urge to get rid of any of the three.  I use the Black Mountain Monster Cross on some off-road sections that I would be reluctant to take the Legolas on.  I use the Atlantis on some off-road sections that I would be reluctant to take the Legolas on.  I use the Atlantis for every day road commuting and never use the Legolas or the Black Mountain Monster Cross, because the Atlantis is just so pleasant when I'm not in an aggro mindset.  If your rides have a "racer attitude", then a racing bike like the Legolas may be more rewarding.  I generally grab the Legolas when I have my heart rate monitor on, my racy kit, and I'm planning to hammer balls-out for 90 minutes.  That's what the Legolas is built for.  It's fun for other things as well.  It's a great bike.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[S]

For sure, BMC is different, that was a bad example, but I was more thinking of what you could buy new instead.

In any case, I prefer canti/v-brakes, I like the ride of the lighter tubed bikes I have, and I think the Legolas looks cool. So if the Riv genie asked what I wanted I would chose that.

[Mark in Beacon]

It was being offered on ebay as a full bike. Because the parts looked mostly beat I made an offer on the frameset , which the seller accepted. Unfortunately, the bike arrived with obvious downtube damage from a crash. I told the seller I would be returning the bicycle, he gave a full refund and did not want the bike back. I was going to scrap it, but I had already thrown out one frame with this issue, so decided to hang on to it. Obviously can't ever resell it, "The Bike Stops Here", but Mark Bulgier guaranteed that it will be okay. More pics (apologies if I've overshared these, can't recall): https://photos.app.goo.gl/K9DststxHD3PETtB8

Maybe one day I will send it out to Greg Reiche to bend back into shape. But it's a fantastic ride, no handling problems. It's between the Huffy and the Takara for this year's D2R2.

[Karl]

Mark,

Beautiful bike! Wow, what year was it made!?!?

Karl
Melton fan from way back

[Marty Gierke, Stewartstown PA]

This bike checks all the boxes for me. Love the fork crown in particular! I'm guessing 1983?

Marty

[Mark in Beacon]

I think Marty is pretty close. I think Huffy sponsored a cyclocross team right around the time enthusiasm was building for the u.s. 1984 Olympics.

[Robert Hakim]

On Wednesday, July 17, 2019 at 6:06:58 PM UTC-6, LBleriot wrote:

People, people.  C’mon.  The orange Rambouillet is the one that should be on everybody’s list.

I wholeheartedly agree! In my formative years as a young bike mechanic I remember going into the basement to get a bike for a customer, and I noticed the gleaming orange paint, ornate badge and decals, beautiful lugwork and the lovely white head tube on the bike next to it. I went straight to the mentor I had at the shop and asked him all about it- and that is how I came to know about Riv. 

I was very happy with my new-to-me '93 RB-2, but wanted wider tires and a saddle bag- not to mention that orange! 

This year I finally purchased my first Riv, and I do love it so... but I still lust over that orange Rambouillet! 

 

[Patrick Moore]

Sorry, blue Ram -- doesn't it take fatter tires? Mine took 35-labeled, 32-actual with fenders.

But my theoretical fave is the Roadeo, which I think has similar, if not more ample, clearance.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique

[bruce.h...@gmail.com]

The color doesn't really matter.  Ram is spec'd for 37 mm btw w/o fenders.  It's the lugs, the double taper stays, the combo of HT and non HT tubing for ride quality, the beautiful fork blade curve, the un dimpled chain stays, the fillet brazed drop outs, The Panasonic or Urema paint work with lug window details and the neutral steering that corners beautifully on fast descents.

[Patrick Moore]

It does, at least if what I've heard is true, that the later blue ones cleared fatter tires than the first orange ones.

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[ascpgh]

I responded to the OP of another thread that was essentially an answer to the "what model would you resurrect" question with my orange Rambouillet:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/vt0OdAZtZDs/1hUH0ETLDQAJ

I've done some original parts swapping to optimize things a bit. Racer brakes for better clearance when closed under braking, "Properly" sized fenders for the tires since the Racers greatly improve clearance for such. RH Stampede Pass EL 700x32 tires. TA Zephyr crankset, now a wide-ish 46-34 double. Suntour AccuShift bar end shifters for their lovely micro ratchet mechanism. In respect to the name (useful French sheep) and inspiration of the model (French rando archetype) I have a Mavic 841 rear derailleur with an 845 cage (the long cage road is goofy looking and the 845 parallelogram plate has a garish sticker instead of the nicer laser etching in the black anodizing), and Mavic 860 front derailleur. I have a set of Simplex DT shift levers, but holy cow those bosses are WAY down there on my 62cm frame. 

My Rambouillet has been so much of what I want or need in a bike that I've been riding it since new to me in 2001. It has acted as a pure road bike and held its own in group riding, carried a load in a Carradice Nelson Longflap with a Bagman support on a credit card trip across the country and been my prime ride for lots of short and multi-day trips on the gravel of the Great Allegheny Passage and rocks and mud of the C&O Canal path. The orange, besides being the undisputed fastest color, has been a large part of people approaching me and asking about the bike and where I'm riding. On the Five Borough ride in NYC a few years ago my wife noted how sour folks on some very expensive CFRP bikes in our riding cohort looked as my bike drew a continuous flow of unsolicited compliments appreciating its aesthetic and fit. 

I have a project cooking that more precisely matches my dimensions, needs and riding. It's custom, but the Rambouillet was so good of an off the hook production option that I was able to avoid a bespoke bike for almost 20 years of riding. Consider yourself lucky if your body proportions are satisfied by the standard frame size increment geometry. I don't and it has left me unimpressed by lots of bikes that are supposed to be "all that". This has been my magic carpet ride

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[RichS]

Patrick, tire clearance for my briefly owned Roadeo was maxed out at 35mm (fenderless) with a couple of mm between tire and chain stay. Depending on rim/tire selection 37mm might be achievable.

Agree with what others have said about the much admired Ram being the one to be revived. First and only time I saw an orange one I was smitten by everything about it. The blues and greens ain’t bad either!

Rich in ATL
(currently building a Ram wannabe MIT Homer)

[Evan E.]

Yes: Rambouillet. Orange. 

[Bill M.]

The original Riv Road Standard was if not a race bike by today's standards, was certainly a raceable bike in its time as the heir to the RB1.  IIRC back in the early days of this list it was reported that someone had actually won a local race on one.  In having eyelets it was very much in the tradition of British racing bikes that were ridden with mudguards and wire-on tyres during the week, then stripped of mudguards and raced on sprints (aka tubulars) on the weekend.  Italian bikes typically made no such concession to practicality.

For those wishing for an AR with more tire clearance, or a new Bombadil, I would suggest resurrecting the rare Riv Mountain Expedition:

I owned the one above for some years, which was the original photo model for the catalog.  Not sure how many others were actually made.

Bill

Stockton, CA

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 10:28:36 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:

It is interesting and not-all-that-surprising that the Legolas is so frequent.  It's the only racing bike Rivendell has ever made, so if you are strictly a bike-racer, and wanted a Rivendell to come back, then resurrecting the one and only Rivendell Racing Model is the natural choice.  All other Rivendells are unracing models, so the UnRacer vote is split.  Racers overwhelmingly vote Legolas

Bill-sometime-bike-racer-and-Legolas-owner Lindsay  

El Cerrito, CA

[bruce.h...@gmail.com]

Bill:

The "original" "Road" in 1995 was the Riv Road (see RR #2) which came out before the "Standand."  It's a nice bike with level TT, normal HT, and basically a Waterford RS front married to a slack seat tube/long stay RBW rear. Made from Reynolds 753, drawn heavier wall than normal for RBW. The bi-plane fork crown is nice too. It is lighter than Ram, Homer, etc, My 54 cm  frame weighs 4 lb, 7/8 oz.  My 52 Ram frame weighs 4 lb 8 oz.  The road forks are not quite as nicely curved as Ram, the stays are single taper. The lugs are Sachs designed, and look powerful. Ram is more typical of Riv curlique designs. My '95 Road is still my "go-fast" bike. "Fast" being relative of course, and related to  the rider, not the ride.

The Road Standard came out in 1996 with sloped TT, extended HT (see catalog #3) Strated out with the same lugs and tubes but  changed lugs by '97 iirc.

[Joe Bernard]

Kinda spammy bro.

[esoterica etc]

Totally spammy, especially with the handle “Cheviot for Sale”

[Alan H]

Hunqapillar for sure. I'd love to get a size 50 with the 27.5" wheels. It that perfect "what a bike is supposed to look like" frame (at least to my eyes) and the green/cream color combination is off the charts beautiful (again to my eyes).

I even called Riv recently to see if I could order one, but alas it would appear that the Waterford link is dead. At least for that frame (perhaps they still make the Roadeo?). It was hinted that the Hunq could reappear in the not-too-near future, but that if it did, it wouldn't be made by Waterford and it would be updated to the point that it would be a different bike. I suspect that this update will be much like the updates that were applied to the Homer (making it more Hillborne-like) and to the Atlantis (making it more Appaloosa-like). 

Makes me kind of sad that I didn't pull the trigger a year-or-so ago when I still could've gotten the bike I really want. So if anyone happens to have a 50cm Hunq that they want to part with...

[tc]

Yes Alan, I heard the same from Will...they're no longer taking orders for the old Waterford-built Hunq.  Sounds like Steve Rex will likely make the "not-the-same-as-the-old-Hunq" Hunq, if it ever happens.  I too am looking for a used one, 58 or 59.

Tom

[Hugh Smitham]

Saluki that can take a 47~48mm tire and keep the center pulls oh and dynamo wire routing.

Hugh

[Bruce Herbitter]

Always, always, always: with Rivendell, if you see something you want, get it now. Chances are it won’t be there later. Not to say there won’t be other great stuff, but nothing stays the same at RBW. GP’s recent blog talks about what he thought he knew when he started out at RBW vs what he now knows to be true regarding bike design. Some of us, like me for instance, prefer that old stuff. Others prefer the new. Holds true for bags, clothes, too.

Tailwinds

Bruce

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 18, 2019, at 1:59 PM, Alan H <ahe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 

[James Warren]

Hugh, this is what a Hillborne is. At least the centerpull version.

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[Hugh Smitham]

Jim,

But I like the HB too.