Do Roadinis ride tall?

[Piaw Na]

I recently acquired a Roadini, and I've been puzzling over the way it rides. It feels a lot taller than my custom touring bike, which was itself based on a 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 geometry with longer chainstays (43cm) and a 80mm BB drop. The Roadini has a 75mm BB drop, and I've got 28mm tires on the Roadini vs 25mm on my touring bike, so in theory, that's only an 8mm difference in BB height. But when I ride the Roadini it feels a lot taller than that! Strangely enough, that doesn't affect handling on climbs or on gravel, but on descents it makes me slow down quite a bit in comparison with my custom bike. Did anyone experience anything similar?

I've attached my frame geometry, and the Roadini 54cm geometry is here: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/files/ROADINI-540-Geo.jpg?7649874663519573416

[Bill Lindsay]

The legendary Piaw Na asked for a comparison of the 54cm Roadini with a 1993 RB-1. 

What size 1993 RB-1 are you comparing?

Back in 1993, I would have chosen a 56cm RB1 for myself, and that would have been for a Lemond-ish race fit.  I probably would have run a 120mm extension stem, basically slammed.  My Saddle Height is 75.5cm.  I worked at a Bridgestone dealer to the end and had my 56cm Bridgestone setup dialed.  The 1994 RB2, which had the identical geometry to the RB1, got blown out at the end for $250 complete on my employee deal, so I set up one of those as my primary road bike for a few years.  It was my first road bike with a compact double, which was life changing.  

Anyway, now I'm 53, and today I have an RB1.  It's a 1992.  My less race-oriented setup  puts me on a 59cm RB1, with a slightly shorter extension stem (100mm) and not slammed.  :)  

I also used to own a Leo Roadini, and I ran a 57cm.  A 57cm Leo Roadini is a MUCH larger bike than a 1992 59cm Bridgestone RB1.  It's got enormous stack and moderate reach.  I would call my 57cm Roadini as a hair larger than my current largest road bike, which is an Ebisu All Purpose whose seat tube measures 60cm c-t-c, 61.5cm c-t-t.   The reach number is about the same, but stack on the 57cm Roadini is taller.  

I'd guess that a 54cm Leo Roadini would probably have a stack and reach pretty similar to a 59cm RB1.  If the RB1 you are comparing was a 59cm, then I would not expect the 54cm Roadini to "ride taller".  If your RB1 is/was smaller than a 59cm, then YES, I think a 54cm Leo Roadini would ride taller, because of it's huge stack.  If, for example, your RB1 for comparison was a 54.5cm size, then a 54cm Leo Roadini is a much much bigger bike than a 54.5cm 1993 RB1.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

I had a 56cm 1993 RB-1 (which died when a Volvo C70 broadsided me on a residential street). So ok, my impression that the Roadini is a taller bike makes sense. When I first talked to Will he thought I would fit a 57cm, but after I told him my intention to use drop bars he went and remeasured the bike and decided the 54cm made more sense. I'm glad I didn't go for a 57! Clearly bike sizes are like shoe sizes --- they seem to change year to year even from the same designer! I did give Grant a hard time for not making the Roadini a 80mm BB drop bike like the Hilsen. (The Hilsen wasn't a consideration --- it used 135mm wheels, which I don't have, and the chainstays are even longer --- the Roadini's long stays already make certain sharp steep climbs not as much fun to ride!) My thoughts are that with the trend to larger/wider tire sizes BB drop should be even lower, especially for those of us who aren't aggressively pedaling around corners. But Grant rides fixies and he pedals around corners so I'm going to lose that argument every time.

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[Bill Lindsay]

The Roadini GEO-Chart on rivbike says the drop is 75, but also shows the bike set up with a 33mm tire.  I think 75 is the correct drop for 622x33mm tires.  I agree with you that 80mm is the correct drop for 38-40mm tires (like a Hilsen).  I don't think any of that has anything to do with Grant riding fixies and forgetting how to design road bikes.  :)  

I don't think a rider can meaningfully feel a 5mm difference in BB drop.  I think what you are feeling is likely Stack related.  A 54cm Roadini is a bigger bike than a 56cm RB1.  Is your stem slammed?  Slam that stem! :)

If you want to split the difference, ride your Roadini for now, and get a deposit in on a Nobilette Roadeo.  Sell the Roadini when it arrives, and off you go.  I'm not sure if you'd prefer a 57 Roadeo, or maybe a 55?  

BL in EC

[Piaw Na]

The bike can take 42mm tires though! I always feel like you should design the bike for the biggest tire you intend to use. I've never heard the term "slam the stem." I assume that means to put it down as low as possible? Right now I have it set up level with my seat just like my touring bike. I'm not sure I want it any lower, but it's worth a shot to see if my back aches. I have no intention of replacing the Roadini, which rides nice enough. My intention was to have it be a backup bike for my touring bike, since this is the 3rd frame I'm on from Carl Strong and he's retiring so that lifetime warranty isn't going to work any more. I may put 38mm tires on it and treat it like a MTB. :-)

[Bill Lindsay]

Google "Slam that Stem" and see what the kids are doing.  It's amusing.  Best of luck with your Roadini.  

[Piaw Na]

Clearly I'm too old school to be slamming anything!

[Joe Bernard]

My answer is yes. I had a 54 Roadini for a while (great bike, shoulda kept it) and it felt markedly taller (higher off the road) than various 650B Rivs I've owned. Fat tired 650B vs. skinnier 700C should be similar diameters so I think the higher BB on Roadini must indeed be noticeable. This is not a criticism in my case, the frame was quite zippy and fun! 

[Piaw Na]

According to https://www.bikecalc.com/wheel_size_math, it'll take a 1.75" tire on 650b to match a 700x25 tire on 700c. No question the Roadini would ride taller than the 1.5" tires on my wife's Cheviot. I think I once tried 1.75" tires on that bike and she didn't like it at all and made me size down the tires.

[Karl Wilcox]

I am 6’6” tall, so I ride ‘tall’ no matter what.  I ride a 61cm Roadini, but do not find that it rides taller than my other frames (I have a 69cm Mercian frame, for example).  But, I also ride with my bars about 1 inch below saddle height.  If you lowered your bars, the feeling of riding tall would probably change.

On Saturday, September 10, 2022, Piaw Na <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I recently acquired a Roadini, and I've been puzzling over the way it rides. It feels a lot taller than my custom touring bike, which was itself based on a 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 geometry with longer chainstays (43cm) and a 80mm BB drop. The Roadini has a 75mm BB drop, and I've got 28mm tires on the Roadini vs 25mm on my touring bike, so in theory, that's only an 8mm difference in BB height. But when I ride the Roadini it feels a lot taller than that! Strangely enough, that doesn't affect handling on climbs or on gravel, but on descents it makes me slow down quite a bit in comparison with my custom bike. Did anyone experience anything similar?

I've attached my frame geometry, and the Roadini 54cm geometry is here: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/files/ROADINI-540-Geo.jpg?7649874663519573416

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[Piaw Na]

I don't think a rider can meaningfully feel a 5mm difference in BB drop.  I think what you are feeling is likely Stack related.  A 54cm Roadini is a bigger bike than a 56cm RB1.  Is your stem slammed?  Slam that stem! :)

If you want to split the difference, ride your Roadini for now, and get a deposit in on a Nobilette Roadeo.  Sell the Roadini when it arrives, and off you go.  I'm not sure if you'd prefer a 57 Roadeo, or maybe a 55?  

I went and measured the stack and reach on both bikes. Turns out my touring bike actually has a higher stack (71.8cm measured from BB to handlebar hood) and reach (45cm measured from BB to handlebar stem center), while the Roadini had 68.58cm and 41.91cm on both of those measurements. What is significant is that the BB height on the touring bike is 10.5" while the BB height on the Roadini is 11", which is a 1.3cm difference. I guess I can definitely feel a 13mm difference in center of gravity shift, 5mm of which is accounted for by the BB drop difference, and then other 8mm is accounted for by the bigger tires (which is strange since the difference between tires is basically going from 25mm to 30mm tires, but 3mm difference might be within the margin of error)

[Michael Hammer]

I ride a 57.5 cm 1992 RB-1 with the drop bars at saddle height.  My saddle height is 74 cm.  This bike feels tall (for a few minutes) compared to a Black Mountain 50 cm Road+.  Both of these bikes have the same reach from saddle to bars and comparable effective top tube.  The RB-1 has 28s and the Road+ 47s.  I ordered a 54 cm Roadini after discussing with Vince at Riv where he initially thought a 57 would be right.  We eventually agreed on 54 based mostly on saddle height and effective top tube.  I plan to use 38s on the Roadini, so we'll see how it feels when it arrives and gets built.  

[Jim Bronson]

My Custom or Road Standard (not sure which) rides a lot lower than my Clem Smith, because, well, it is.  It's a bike that came standard with narrowish tires by todays Riv standards and has 80mm BB drop.  Then I went and converted it to 650B x38.  It's really low.  Like never pedal through a corner low.  If I look down, the pedal seems alarmingly close to the ground.  But I love the way the bike handles this way, it feels so planted, but yet you can easily redirect it in a fast corner.  So I just don't look down at my pedal relative to the tarmac, and all is well.

The Clem on the other hand has not only less BB drop to begin with, but also 29x2.1 tires on it.  Plus the riding position is extremely upright.  Pretty much night and day between the two.  I have to duck quite a bit for the trees on the sidewalk between the two halves of my neighborhood (which don't connect by road, so nice).

My Redwood, which is shod with 700Cx38 tires and more or less in a stock configuration, falls somewhere in the middle.

Random musings brought to you by,

Jim

Austin suburbs, TX

On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 9:57 AM Piaw Na <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I recently acquired a Roadini, and I've been puzzling over the way it rides. It feels a lot taller than my custom touring bike, which was itself based on a 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 geometry with longer chainstays (43cm) and a 80mm BB drop. The Roadini has a 75mm BB drop, and I've got 28mm tires on the Roadini vs 25mm on my touring bike, so in theory, that's only an 8mm difference in BB height. But when I ride the Roadini it feels a lot taller than that! Strangely enough, that doesn't affect handling on climbs or on gravel, but on descents it makes me slow down quite a bit in comparison with my custom bike. Did anyone experience anything similar?

I've attached my frame geometry, and the Roadini 54cm geometry is here: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/files/ROADINI-540-Geo.jpg?7649874663519573416

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[Jim Bronson]

I'm 6'7", see my prior post, the position of the bike relative to the ground does make a difference ;)

Jim from Oregon who lives in the Austin suburbs of Texas for a long time now.

On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 5:32 PM Karl Wilcox <kwi...@weimar.edu> wrote:

I am 6’6” tall, so I ride ‘tall’ no matter what.  I ride a 61cm Roadini, but do not find that it rides taller than my other frames (I have a 69cm Mercian frame, for example).  But, I also ride with my bars about 1 inch below saddle height.  If you lowered your bars, the feeling of riding tall would probably change.

On Saturday, September 10, 2022, Piaw Na <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I recently acquired a Roadini, and I've been puzzling over the way it rides. It feels a lot taller than my custom touring bike, which was itself based on a 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 geometry with longer chainstays (43cm) and a 80mm BB drop. The Roadini has a 75mm BB drop, and I've got 28mm tires on the Roadini vs 25mm on my touring bike, so in theory, that's only an 8mm difference in BB height. But when I ride the Roadini it feels a lot taller than that! Strangely enough, that doesn't affect handling on climbs or on gravel, but on descents it makes me slow down quite a bit in comparison with my custom bike. Did anyone experience anything similar?

I've attached my frame geometry, and the Roadini 54cm geometry is here: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/files/ROADINI-540-Geo.jpg?7649874663519573416

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[Piaw Na]

The Roadini has been an eye opener for me in terms of seeing how Grant has evolved in his thinking. I really like the idea of slackening the head tube and making it up with increasing the rake. The result is a similar feeling geometry but no toe overlap and room for wider tires. I suspect if I ever end up getting a new custom frame I'd use the Roadini geometry, shorten the chainstays by about 1cm, and increase the BB drop to 82 or 85mm (don't ever pedal around corners or use tires less than 700x30 --- since I like and use clipless pedals I'll still have plenty of room), and it'll be pretty much ideal. I agree that you can't beat a low BB height for cornering and descending.

[Slin]

Could the difference in feel be from the w-factor?

[Philip Williamson]

Without arguing against BB drop affecting handling and the perception of handling, I can’t see how stack can make a bike feel or ride “tall,” IF the bars are level with the saddle. I think the shorter reach makes you sit up, raising your head and giving you a narrower base (ass to grips) which I think might degrade balance on the bike. I’m much less “in” the bike on a smaller bike, even with the saddle and grips up. Jim Bronson also says his “tall” bike gives him a much more upright posture.

The reason I think reach drives the “tall” feeling more than stack: In my mind’s eye I can put my hands on the bars, and the bike can grow or shrink vertically and the stem and seatpost can make up the difference. My position on the bike stays the same. If, however, I shrink the top tube, my hands move back towards my hips and my head and CG move up. 

I like to measure my bikes saddle-center to grip-center, rather than saddle-tip to steerer-center.

Philip

Sonoma County, Calif

[Piaw Na]

I went back and measured the height of my tires, and discovered that indeed, the tires were 8mm taller on the Roadini than on my touring bike. It's very strange, since these were nominally 700x28 or 700x30mm tires, but measured only 27mm wide on the rims. I guess all the extra material on "wider" tires went into raising the height of the tire (which is undesirable) as opposed to increasing the width of the tire (which was what I expected). Does this continue as you increase tire size? For instance, if I got a 700x38mm tire, would I expect to it to end up being only 30mm wide, but end up adding another 1cm to the height of the bike?

[lconley]

Bicycle tires are basically circles in cross section, as the tire gets wider it also gets taller. The width of the rim will impact the width to a certain degree, but not the height. Modern car tires a more like rectangles where the width and height are independent of one another.

Laing

[Piaw Na]

Doesn't seem very circular to me if almost all the extra material went into height instead of width. :-)  I guess that's what I get for running Velocity Aerohead rims which are narrower than current fashion.