High bars at a club ride

[Marc Irwin‏]

It was a normal Monday night ride with the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club.  A typical group was riding 15-16 MPH for 25 or so miles.  A good bunch of people in biking regalia on their over the counter crotch rockets with drop bars, except for me and Leah Peterson on our Rivendells. with upright bars.    In the lousy cell phone shot I took from the back of the group, Leah is the second white helmet from from the front left.  Notice her posture compared to the body position of all the riders on their drop bars.

It was that way the whole ride. Most club riders assume their drop bars make them faster, after all, EVERYBODY uses them right?  

Marc

[Eric Daume‏]

Is there any doubt drop bars aren’t faster? Less drag goes a long way. A more leaned over position lets you use your big butt muscles better. 

Leah is up front because she’s a strong rider. Maybe she would be up fronter if she had drops. 

Eric

With no drop bar bikes in the garage. 

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[Marc Irwin‏]

Eric,

The point is that riders don't use that position.  Even against the wind, only one with drop bars actually got into the lower position.  They all stayed up on the hoods or the flats the whole ride.

Marc

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 7:38:12 AM UTC-4 Eric Daume wrote:

Is there any doubt drop bars aren’t faster? Less drag goes a long way. A more leaned over position lets you use your big butt muscles better. 

Leah is up front because she’s a strong rider. Maybe she would be up fronter if she had drops. 

Eric

With no drop bar bikes in the garage. 

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022, Marc Irwin <irwi...@gmail.com> wrote:

It was a normal Monday night ride with the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club.  A typical group was riding 15-16 MPH for 25 or so miles.  A good bunch of people in biking regalia on their over the counter crotch rockets with drop bars, except for me and Leah Peterson on our Rivendells. with upright bars.    In the lousy cell phone shot I took from the back of the group, Leah is the second white helmet from from the front left.  Notice her posture compared to the body position of all the riders on their drop bars.

It was that way the whole ride. Most club riders assume their drop bars make them faster, after all, EVERYBODY uses them right?  

Marc

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[Bones‏]

I would have said look at all the other riders' body positions compared to Leah's. It's the same. It's the same position I am in while holding front of my Albatross/Billie bars. I can't dispute that drops are great sometimes (mostly wind for me), but I have my drops high enough to comfortable and useful for me. That may not be the case with many "over the counter crotch rockets" <-- love it!

Bones

[Garth‏]

I've ridden many a mile and raced with quite low drops bars. I've ridden many a mile with with quite high Albatross bars. 

I've ridden many a mile with "regular/street" clothes. I've ridden many a mile with "cycling specific" clothes. 

Day/night/up/down and all around . 

Who/what is to say one "position/way" is better than any other ?

That "who/what" is but the given position trying to justify itself !   Not the rider, the one riding. These "positions" take many forms, be it formations of size and shape or thoughts/opinions/attitudes inwards and outwards towards "others". Sometimes the rider seems to "lose themselves" in these "positions" and seem to believe they ARE the "position". They are not, ever. One is not "what they say", One is That They IS" .....BEING !  ((( laughing ))) 

Such is the "egomania" of such "positions" !  ((( laughing heartily ))) Always seeking validation, a pat on the ol' back, a status up high or even down low... and a ho-ho-ho !

 

Nevertheless.... There's endless way to ride !  As you ride 'em all you clealy see that they all have thier place/time/space/etc, that there is no valid basis for comparing/raising/lowering one to any "other" one as there is only The-One-ALL ..... This Presence called "Here/Now/This/The-IS" ! 

Just Ride sunshine ! 

[John Moore‏]

Garth, couldn’t have said it better myself.

Whatever works for YOU is all that counts…

…though I have been known to give pointers to relatively new riders on form, cadence, gearing etiquette, etc. to help them maintain pace in a paceline. 

Johnnysmooth 

On Jul 26, 2022, at 8:44 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Bones‏]

I think that's the whole point. Drop bars are the only option on many over the counter crotch rockets. Many people are not aware of the "endless way(s) to ride."

Bones

[Wesley‏]

Agree with Bones. Everyone should ride the bike that makes them happiest, but based on my experience experimenting with all different kinds of bars, I can''t imagine that every single roadie would prefer drop bars if they gave other options a chance.

-W

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!‏]

Well, of course everyone should ride what they prefer to ride. Just Ride, and all that jazz, and love your bike and stuff.

I think what Marc is saying is that it just seems ironic. We both feel it is our handlebars that make the roadies look askance at us. Something about swept-back bars says “not serious” to the other riders in a club ride. But truthfully, they are sitting upright on the tops of their drop bars about as tall as I am, so is there really a huge difference? 

I mean, it’s a fair question…

[John Moore‏]

I’m a strong advocate of just enjoy the ride and the more people I see getting out on their bikes the better as good Ol’Mother Earth needs all the help we can give her. 

Here in Boston, there is a dramatic difference in the number of people I know see out and about on bikes compared to a decade ago, and the decade before that. All good. 

That being said, I’m a tried and true “roadie” that use to race in my home state of Colorado and more recently here in  New England area and have always ridden drop bar bikes. I’m on the hoods a good part of most rides but I also have about an 11-12cm drop from saddle to top of bars, so yes, it is lower and I find more efficient for that type of riding. 

Am downshifting to a certain degree with an Atlantis that will likely have Tosco bars. This will be for a different style of riding, more touring and stopping to smell the roses. 

But I’ll be keeping those road bikes as well as sometimes I just love the feel and handling of them. 

All bikes and bike configurations are good as long as they get ridden and not collecting dust. 😁

On Jul 26, 2022, at 3:46 PM, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, of course everyone should ride what they prefer to ride. Just Ride, and all that jazz, and love your bike and stuff.

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[Ryan‏]

Not really , basis Marc's photo. Unless he'd pointed it out I wouldn't have been able to tell it was you basis body position. You 2 are riding much nicer bikes IMO. But, admittedly, most modern road bikes by major manufacturers don't do a lot for me. But that's me and YMMV.  Not dissing anyone who rides them. On the rare occasions that I ride my old Riv road which does have drop bars, I am on the hoods or just behind; sometimes on the top , and very rarely in the drops. Bars are more or less level with the saddle. And admittedly, the ergonomics are much better after replacing older Campy Super Record brakes and levers with Grand Cru brakes and those funky TRP road levers. 

But  since 1993 my bar of choice is the elegant but certainly polarizing moustache bar. Which almost certainly would have replaced the drops on my road bike had I not stumbled on TRP and Velo-Orange Grand Cru.

[Joe Bernard‏]

What the dropbar riders would tell you is they have the option of that higher position plus a lower one. Which is fair if you're going to use it, but in all my years of riding drops I hardly ever did. Gimme my Billies! 

Joe "upright and catching wind as the Good Lord intended" Bernard

[Max S‏]

I think that's just part of the design intent for the bike, and the reason the drop bar is such a persistent design element. I think that on a properly set-up road bike, I should have at least 3 positions: 1) Chillin', 2) Groovin', and 3) Jammin' – tops, hoods, and drops, respectively. When I'm "Chillin'", I want to be comfortable, and my position may not be all that different than when I'm riding my commuter bike with swept-back bars. 

- Max "gotta work on my flexibility as I age" in A2

[Joe Bernard‏]

I'm happy to see that the group are nice people happy to ride the hoods with Leah and Marc. It looks fun! 

[Leah Peterson‏]

Max, you forgot your favorite riding position: NO HANDS.

Joe, the club folks are really, really nice. The young racers in the super-fast groups don’t talk to us, but I guess I don’t talk to them, either, so…

On Jul 26, 2022, at 11:23 PM, Max S <msh...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think that's just part of the design intent for the bike, and the reason the drop bar is such a persistent design element. I think that on a properly set-up road bike, I should have at least 3 positions: 1) Chillin', 2) Groovin', and 3) Jammin' – tops, hoods, and drops, respectively. When I'm "Chillin'", I want to be comfortable, and my position may not be all that different than when I'm riding my commuter bike with swept-back bars. 

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[Nick Payne‏]

I dislike flat handlebars so much that back in the days when I had an MTB, I took the flat bars off it and substituted drop bars after the first couple of rides. Drop bars offer multiple different hand positions, which I find very useful on long rides:

1. holding the straight section of the bar each side of the stem
2. hands on the curve of the bars behind the brake levers
3. hands on the brake hoods with the body of the lever between thumb and forefinger
4. top of the lever hood hooked into the base of my palm, with my forearms resting on the bars behind the lever
   
5. on the drops
   

When I'm riding away from traffic, I probably spend more time in position 4 than any of the others. I have the tops of the bars pretty level with the saddle.

Nick

[ascpgh‏]

It really boils down to manners and the realm of empathy, which is something I have seen dwindling in the subsequent ranks of roles in my healthcare workplace. Any activity one participates in has certain participant etiquette, even bar room brawls. In group bicycle rides I have even had my randonneur drop bars questioned by a new to cycling cyclist because of my bar end shifters. "Those are dangerous, you have to take your hand off the brake levers to shift them". There is a whole lot egocentrism in that sort of projection. I refer to that as a bilateral thumb disease: 

.

What is dangerous is being a new rider thinking that your proceeds from a Peloton at the gym and anything you bought make you a good rider. If your brakes are the control you want most, you are still NIB as a rider.

I invite all riders to cycling and joining group rides but new cyclists need to be less self-focused and more outwardly observant to absorb from experienced riders, passively or actively. Overtaking me on an upgrade then cutting back in front of me by inches only to pull a bottle and take a drink while wavering is newbie obtuseness. That sort of exuberance put a rider (that one) on the ground last night on a beautiful fast downhill on brand new asphalt. Another went down because of a very poor condition section of concrete with eroded open joints and fist-sized rocks that have evulsed from them.

I was the only rider with fenders and on one downhill stretch all others around me were in their wobbly tucks "to go faster".  I overtly sat up as high as I could in the air and only then was able to stop continuous braking to keep from needing to cross the center line and pass while coasting on my big gushy 650Bx42s amongst all their rock hard 700x<28s. 

What things that make my bike faster? I realize green comes after red and the cross street turns yellow just before that progression. I can clip into my pedal without looking, before I want to start moving and momentarily track stand until I'm clear to pedal onward. I can remember that if I come to a stop when pushing a heroic gear that I will have to begin pedaling from a standstill and downshift into a gear that makes that possible. Those three things alone contribute to put me off the front, regardless of how "fast" those new riders' bikes are or how slow they think mine is. 

Experience counts more than hardware, which long time riders change with some frequency. Knowing when someone else had made a conscious decisions about their bike gear should be clue enough for one to keep their opinion to themselves. Especially when their "OTC crotch rockets" (that's awesome Marc!) have not been altered from the box, even bar tape or tires. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Brian Turner‏]

I've always been a "to each their own" kind of person when it comes to bikes, and whatever gets anyone out riding and enjoying their bike(s) is a very good thing. However, all of this discussion centering around the controversies and drama of club rides just further cements my antipathy towards club riding.

[Tom Wyland‏]

OK, I used to be all against the idea of riding in circles for sport.  I'm all about riding to get somewhere or do something, not just riding loops.  Then Covid lockdown hit  and I didn't bike to work, there was nothing open, and I didn't want to be exercising my lungs in the grocery store after riding there.  So I found myself riding in circles.  So I guess it's not that dumb after all. I just wish people would take a relaxing ride once and a while instead of sprinting everywhere.

I'm 100% with the comment from Max S on Chilling/Cruising/Jamming positions.  All bars should have them.

Tom, who recently switched to Bosco Bars

[amill...@gmail.com‏]

I’ve got Boscos, Toscos, Rene Herse Maes os, and Some HWY onecos. I’ve ridden albatross, bull horns, fun3s, high risers, etc.

They’re great. Having strong feelings about a handlebar seems strange to me. I like the multiple positions on a drop bar as much as I like the upright position on albatross’.

Just like cruising can be as much or less fun as a group ride. 

I admire Leah for not letting preconceived notions prevent her from trying new things. I’ve been shunned by roadies at group rides and hipsters at critical mass. Laugh it off and eat some tacos.

Best,

Aaron in El Paso

On Jul 27, 2022, at 08:13, Tom Wyland <tomw...@gmail.com> wrote:

OK, I used to be all against the idea of riding in circles for sport.  I'm all about riding to get somewhere or do something, not just riding loops.  Then Covid lockdown hit  and I didn't bike to work, there was nothing open, and I didn't want to be exercising my lungs in the grocery store after riding there.  So I found myself riding in circles.  So I guess it's not that dumb after all. I just wish people would take a relaxing ride once and a while instead of sprinting everywhere.

I'm 100% with the comment from Max S on Chilling/Cruising/Jamming positions.  All bars should have them.

Tom, who recently switched to Bosco Bars

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[George Schick‏]

I clearly recall riding in an organized 100K group ride that took place in Central Indiana in 1994 where a young lady and I had somewhat separated from some of the other clusters of bikes and she asked if I wanted to join her the rest of the way.  She said she was a triathlete. I agreed and rode along side for while on my "ancient" '73 Fuji 5-speed while observing her riding style.  Although obviously a very strong rider on a very up-to-date bike, she seemed very nervous and kind of jittery on her bike and, by virtue of the all too accessible brifters, was constantly jumping from one gear to another on even the mildest elevations.  She said that she had crashed on a few occasions, which made her somewhat apprehensive.  She couldn't even remove one hand from the bars to drink from a water bottle and, though she had flexible tube running from a very tiny bladder-like water vessel mounted at the rear of her bike, I never saw her take one sip.  She announced that she had become dehydrated during one triathlon and I could easily see why.

Although I never said anything, I also noticed that, given her long legs, she rode with the saddle in way too low a position.  So, at one point I asked her if she had ever drafted behind another cyclist and she said no, so I offered to take the lead and instructed her about where to place her bike behind mine in order to get the best wind break.  After a while she remarked, "Your peddling is SO smooth."  A little while later she asked, "Do you ride rollers?  You ride perfectly straight!"  Well, I did ride rollers during the off season back then and my pedaling had developed into that "ankle drop" at the bottom of the down stroke, something (and I'm sorry about this for you platform pedaling folks) can really only be perfected with some type of pedal retention.  So, on we rode to the end of the route, never giving her any advice one way or another about riding position, constant shifting, or pedal retention (I learned the hard way not to do that with anyone).  As strong a rider as she was, I always hoped that she developed a better riding style as time went along.

The whole point of mentioning this is to underscore that position, position, position is of ultimate importance.  But not the position you have to buy into at a shop with a Fit-Kit.  Having encountered Grant and his Readers in the mid-90's I soon began to understand that in a different way that I had previously and, though I still used road drop bars, I adopted a much higher bar height as a result.  After all, I was aging and was becoming much less flexible that I used to be.  If you want ride higher bars in a more upright position, good for you.  But don't automatically discount those who use road bars positioned in a way that supports their riding style; consider instead this article from Page 28 of an old reader http://notfine.com/rivreader/RR04.pdf and at least give it the benefit of the doubt.  The author is, after all a physical therapist and does have some worthy credentials.  Consider instead what Nick Payne so clearly underscores in his very accurate post above about the multi-position availability that the road bars offer a cyclist that upright or flat bars simply cannot.

[Joe Bernard‏]

I agree that position on the bike matters, but I don't understand how the young lady relates to the rest of your post. We're talking about bar height and you mentioned her saddle was too low and she seemed nervous (which she explained) and shifted a lot. 

[George Schick‏]

Maybe I was too unclear in my previous post because it was getting too lengthy, but what I was trying to underscore is that one cannot simply elevate a rider with upright bars to the same level as one riding with road bike drop bars without taking into consideration the level at which the road bike bars are set, the stem length, etc.  I'll wager good money (not that any money is worth much these days) that a well positioned rider with drop bars would blow the socks off any rider on a long wheel-based bike with upright bars in an out and out competition.  What I seem to see in the club ride scenarios posted here lately is a kind of Annie Oakley "Anything You Can Do (I Can Do Better)" with upright bars and that's just a one-off comparison.  Did you read orthopedic physical therapist and exercise physiologist Bob Gordon's article?  What's the point of all this, anyway?

[Joe Bernard‏]

Annie Oakley?? Well ok then. 

[Leah Peterson‏]

George,

Wait, is this Annie Oakley stuff directed at me? If so, I find your comments bordering on mean, but I’ll try to remain objective here. The point of my club ride posts is meant to be that one does not have to conform to the preconceived notions embraced in bike clubs everywhere: that if you don’t look the part and ride a certain bike, you can’t keep pace. 

For a rider like me, joining a club ride can be uphill battle, right from the time you roll into the parking lot. Despite the “experts” saying you can’t hang with a group and ride a heavy bike, a bike with swept back bars, flat pedals, blah blah blah, I’m doing it and I’m not slowing us down. I’m not saying drop bars are bad and should be tossed out. I AM saying you can ride Billie Bars and still be fast. The point is not to negate drop bars and carbon bikes; the point is to show that there is room for variety in club rides. It might even be healthy. The club riding crowd can be awfully dogmatic, and even condescending (though most of my fellow riders are kind souls). I would hope my exploits might be a bit refreshing.

But to your point, who here has ridden both types of bikes and can honestly say which is faster? Maybe it *is* the drop-bar, short wheelbased bike, but I’ve never ridden one, so I can’t say.

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[Joe Bernard‏]

Leah, 

Your exploits are certainly refreshing to me. Those dropbar/carbon/Lycra group rides always gave me a closed "you can't ride with us, stay away" vibe; I'm still not quite motivated to DO it on my Billie Bar long wheelbase mixte-ish Riv - Joe Bernard, Slow Lone Wolf - but you've shown me it's possible! I think this a good thing. 

[George Schick‏]

"....But to your point, who here has ridden both types of bikes and can honestly say which is faster? Maybe it *is* the drop-bar, short wheel based bike, but I’ve never ridden one, so I can’t say..."  Well I, for one, have and continue to ride both types of bikes and have no reason to negative either one; they both have their legitimate purposes.  But if you want to say that one is either just as good or superior to the other then I have to stop and shake my head a bit.  Again, as I replied to Bernard, what's the point?  If you can ride with the "roadies" as you call them and keep up with them, fine.  But does that make your upright bars and long wheelbase superior to theirs?  I hardly think so - it's all a matter or riding position and what it does (or is doing) to your anatomy.  It could make no difference or it could be harmful in the long run.  After all, even Grant has said that certain bikes aren't intended to be use in club rides.  And you can, if you wish, employ Grant's "maybe so, maybe not" rhetoric about one versus the other, but it makes one wonder why he bothered to include that "Raise Dat Stem" (which was aimed at both people who ride at too high a position and what it does to various leg muscles versus those who ride at way too low a position (think excessively low drop bars)) in one of his Readers.  Have you read it??  And to Joe's late arriving comment, yeah you have proved you can do it, but once again, what's the point?  I can see that I'm creeping closer to the crotchety Steve Placinar commentary level so I'll cease and desist.  Meanwhile, ya'll have a great time on your rides and enjoy the company of those who differ a bit.

[Joe Bernard‏]

"And to Joe's late arriving comment, yeah you have proved you can do it, but once again, what's the point?"

For the record my comment was exactly on time. 

[Wesley‏]

I read the Bob Gordon article. In it, he says that the ideal position is to have your back elevated 50 degrees above horizontal. There aren't many photos of cyclists in profile on the Riv site (mostly from ahead or behind as captured by a photographer standing on the same trail or road as the rider). But I did find this one, where the back angle looks just about perfect, on a Sam Hillborne with albatross bars. I think we can all agree that this is the ideal riding position.

I like Max's position categories - Chillin, Groovin, and Jammin. For me, 100% of my riding is best described as chillin' or groovin', so I don't miss the jammin' position on my albatross and albastache bars.

[Leah Peterson‏]



Oh, George, I hope your question to me was sincere and not “crotchety” because I would love to answer you.

“What’s the point?”

Inclusion. Encouragement: If I can do it, you can too. I cannot be the only one who rides a Rivendell and wants to be part of a local bike community but feels unwelcome. I hope someone on this list decides to try out their local club after reading about the Racing Platypus. That is the whole point of my club ride thread. Sprinkled with some amusement. And, I think it’s healthy for the local club to have a Rivendell in it. I’m happy to spread Grant’s influence; it’s a healthy way to ride a bike. 

I moved across the country and I wanted bike friends. I didn’t know how I would be received at a club ride, was uncertain I could succeed in one. What if I was unskilled? Too slow? Not accepted? My Platypus is supremely comfortable, gorgeous, and just right for me. If I can’t ride my Platypus in a club ride, I don’t want to be in the club. As it turns out, you *can* ride your Rivendell in a club (Marc has done it for years) and you are not automatically slow and unwelcome just because you do. All but the fastest riders are good to me (the 18+ mph guys ignore me).  I ride with nice people on carbon bikes and we really enjoy each other. And now several of them have expressed interest in getting their own Rivendells. 

“But does that make your upright bars and long wheelbase superior to theirs?” 

Maybe. Depends on what you value. If I can do the same job on a bike that allows me to wear whatever clothes I want, look at the scenery and keep pace with the rest, that’s superior by my definition, and that’s why I’m riding a Platypus and not a Trek.

I’m sure the roadie would think their bike superior to mine. That’s ok with me. And tomorrow I’ll be riding with them and we’ll have a great time. But I’ll be more comfortable and riding a prettier bike.

Leah

On Jul 28, 2022, at 7:08 PM, George Schick <bhi...@gmail.com> wrote:

"....But to your point, who here has ridden both types of bikes and can honestly say which is faster? Maybe it *is* the drop-bar, short wheel based bike, but I’ve never ridden one, so I can’t say..."  Well I, for one, have and continue to ride both types of bikes and have no reason to negative either one; they both have their legitimate purposes.  But if you want to say that one is either just as good or superior to the other then I have to stop and shake my head a bit.  Again, as I replied to Bernard, what's the point?  If you can ride with the "roadies" as you call them and keep up with them, fine.  But does that make your upright bars and long wheelbase superior to theirs?  I hardly think so - it's all a matter or riding position and what it does (or is doing) to your anatomy.  It could make no difference or it could be harmful in the long run.  After all, even Grant has said that certain bikes aren't intended to be use in club rides.  And you can, if you wish, employ Grant's "maybe so, maybe not" rhetoric about one versus the other, but it makes one wonder why he bothered to include that "Raise Dat Stem" (which was aimed at both people who ride at too high a position and what it does to various leg muscles versus those who ride at way too low a position (think excessively low drop bars)) in one of his Readers.  Have you read it??  And to Joe's late arriving comment, yeah you have proved you can do it, but once again, what's the point?  I can see that I'm creeping closer to the crotchety Steve Placinar commentary level so I'll cease and desist.  Meanwhile, ya'll have a great time on your rides and enjoy the company of those who differ a bit.

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[amill...@gmail.com‏]

I like club rides. Hanging with the A group is fun. Even getting dropped by the A group is fun. As long as you come back next week.

My first Wednesday night ride I saw a guy on a white powder coated, fixed gear Jeunet. I thought that was the coolest. 

The next week I left my cannondale at home and rode my fixed RB-2. I got dropped. I rode it again the next week. I got dropped again. I rode it the next week and hung with them. It was awesome. Having a community is important. 

I think everyone should ride whatever they want. Riding should be fun and competition should be fun. Nothing wrong with it. 

As a side story, my petty officer used to call us Annie Oakley if we sat sideways at our watch console in the Navy. I’m wondering if Leah has some magical 90° crank that allows her to sit sideways (and if she’s a crack shot.)

Comfort can be described in different ways. On my fillet brazed plus bike with Bosco bars and a brooks, I feel quite comfortable cruising with my kid in the Mac-ride. I do not feel comfortable trying to go fast.

On my roadie Protovelo with drop bars, I feel quite comfortable going fast. I do not feel as comfortable with the kid on it.

I want both of these bikes. I’m happy I have both of them. I don’t want cruiser bars on the proto or drop bars on the cruiser. 

I’m glad this list can support both. I’m glad Riv can support both. Rivendell is a part of the bicycle industry, and just like the industry they have to make new things and sell new ideas to stay afloat. In the 90s that was 28s and lugs and brooks. Now it’s long chainstays and Bosco bars. I’m glad they’ve done both. 

Best,

Aaron in El Paso 

On Jul 28, 2022, at 18:42, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Ray Varella‏]

Here’s my one and only experience encountering a group of local club riders. 

Years ago (20) I was out on a Saturday morning ride on my Rivendell Allrounder, upright bars. 

I pulled up behind a group of road bike riders at a stoplight. 

I said “ I thought I was the only one in this city that rode a bike who hadn’t lost his license because of a DUI. 

One of the guys said “anyone riding a Rivendell is welcome with us anytime. 

Ride what you like, any day on any bike is time well spent. 

Ray “several rides on the Toei this week, plus a super smooth Clem ride”

[Doug H.‏]

Leah's bicycle is superior to the roadies bicycles. That is an opinion but happens to be correct.  Thank you Marc for this thread as it highlights the fact that you don't have to follow the crowd or group-think (pun intended) to succeed. I suspect some other riders in Leah's group would very much enjoy a Rivendell and Leah's courage to show up with such a different bike and perform well gives them confidence to try it. 

Doug

[Joe Bernard‏]

Leah's bike is better and prettier and her position is superior and that's just the facts. In my opinion. Which is the correct one. 

Joe "just sayin, and I'm right" Bernard 

[Toshi Takeuchi‏]

I recently rode an event where my Roadeo was the spectacle of the ride. My leather seat and “giant” banana sack bag and “fat” 32 mm tires were so unusual. My comment to them was that the Roadeo is my light bike! I climbed faster than my buddies despite my “heavy” bike and dusted’em on the downhills because my “fat” tires were way more stable on the bumpy roads. We all had fun and no carbon frames cracked that day thankfully.

Toshi

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[Patrick Moore‏]

I entirely agree that position or fit generally is the most important thing in bike comfort and riding efficiently (yes, comfort is relative; but even a pro will ride faster if he is more comfortable than if he is more uncomfortable, and bad fit is probably the worst thing for comfort), and I agree entirely too that the entire virtue of drop bars is that they offer many different positions for comfort (yes, and efficiency, but believe me, tucked into the hooks against a 25 mph headwind in a 70-something fixed gear is a hell of a lot more comfortable than trying to buck that wind while sitting upright). 

But!! Tell me if I am right or wrong: I thought that the entire smorgasbord of the many different Rivendell upright models came about precisely to give more comfortable upright riding with multiple hand positions -- isn't this right?

I've not used any non-drop Riv bar since the old Priest and original edition Moustache bars, but I have been tempted to try an Albastache precisely because **I thought** that this was an improvement in hand positions and therefore comfort over the old Albatross and Moustache bars. 

Anyone?

On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 2:51 PM George Schick <bhi...@gmail.com> wrote:

.... Consider instead what Nick Payne so clearly underscores in his very accurate post above about the multi-position availability that the road bars offer a cyclist that upright or flat bars simply cannot.

[Wesley‏]

I have an Albastache on an old road bike frame, and an albatross on an old MTB all-purpose tank. The albastache is great! compared to the albatross, it is more comfortable to grab the curve because it conforms to a natural arm posture with the pinky lower than the index (which is opposite to the rise on the albatross.) The albastache lacks an equivalent position to the drops on a drop bar, but over the years I've found that I never get into the drops, anyway. If that doesn't bother you and if your body is like mine, then you'll find that the positions it does have are more comfortable than their drop-bar equivalents.

-W

[Corwin Zechar‏]

At the outset, I will say that I agree with pretty much everything said so far in this thread. I heartily agree with RIDE WHAT YOU LIKE. I will also say that I hate riding upright. I have the interesting situation in that I captain two tandems every week - once a week for Charlie Cunningham and a few times a week for my wife.

Both Charlie and my wife are disabled - each in different ways. My tandem sports Albastache bars "slammed". Charlie and Jacquie's tandem sports Bosco Bull Moose bars "up high". Every time Charlie and I go out, my backside aches. Every time my wife and I go out? Bliss. Saddles? You ask... Charlie's tandem has a Brooks C17. Mine has a Fizik Aliante. I've tried lots of saddles. Wide ones, narrow ones, soft cushy ones, hard ones, etc. The wide ones chafe my thighs. The resulting sores are worse than a sore bottom. The saddles I like best are Fizik Aliante and Berthoud Galibier.

Point #1 is: Tolerating others is easy - once you find some common ground. Charlie LOVES chocolate ice cream. And Charlie is a Berkeley trained engineer who geeks out over fascinating designs. I provide both for him and we get along famously. [Charlie and I happen to be rather close in other aspects too - so not much of a stretch for me or him]. But it's easy to bond with lots of people over this kind of stuff if you focus on similarities instead of differences.

Point #2 is: About thirteen years ago, I discovered when riding my drop bars, I spend 99% of the time on the top - straight section, hoods, ramps, etc. Almost never in the drops or hooks. So I tried Mustache bars. What a revelation. Then I ordered our second tandem (a Hubbuhubbuh) for my wife. No Mustache bars to be found. Tried the Albastache bars and loved them too. So if you pay attention to what you like, you may get some insight into related preferences as well.

YMMV.

Corwin

[Patrick Moore‏]

Thanks, Wesley, this is useful information. An Albastache won't replace my drop bars because I often use the hooks, but it might give more hand positions on my Monocog 29er than the (cut down) MAP/Ahearne bar currently on it, which, though it is the best "upright" bar I've used to date, is not as comfortable as my drops.

The one thing that makes me hesitate about the Albastache (and other Rivendell bars) is the width; I've learned over many years that I just don't like bars much wider than 46 cm, shorter stems or not.

But it remains on my "definitely maybe" list.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Roberta‏]

It’s nice when we can ride our preferences and at least not denigrate other preferences. I found Rivendell because I was having terrible neck pain. Anything low (most bikes/stems) had me cranking my neck. Anything aluminum was jarring. **I didn’t know there were other options.** Until…

I now ride happily pain free on my upright Rivendells, about the same lean as recommended in the article.  I have multiple hand positions on my Billie and albatross bars but never use them.  I see the roses rather than wizzing by them.   It comes down to goals and wants. 

About a month ago I went on a hot 90* “D” ride to the bike club picnic and although everyone had kits and drop bars , they were a nice group and friendly to me. We went at a C+ pace because we all could go that speed.  I told them I’m a weak rider especially on hills, just in case I needed to hike a bike. I was one of the first up the hills, although I didn’t care if I was up front; I just didn’t want to hike a bike. 

One older guy had really skinny tires was humped over his bike and probably weighed over 250 lbs. His buddy said he should bring water on the ride. No, it weighs too much, he said. (I’m not kidding.).  I’m sure I had a more comfortable ride.

 I sure had fun though talking with everyone and I’ll join the group again once once the temps lower.

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 7:29:03 AM UTC-4 Marc Irwin wrote:

It was a normal Monday night ride with the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club.  A typical group was riding 15-16 MPH for 25 or so miles.  A good bunch of people in biking regalia on their over the counter crotch rockets with drop bars, except for me and Leah Peterson on our Rivendells. with upright bars.    In the lousy cell phone shot I took from the back of the group, Leah is the second white helmet from from the front left.  Notice her posture compared to the body position of all the riders on their drop bars.

It was that way the whole ride. Most club riders assume their drop bars make them faster, after all, EVERYBODY uses them right?  

Marc

[John Hawrylak‏]

Marc Irwin stated:   "The point is that riders don't use that position (I'm assuming drops).  Even against the wind, only one with drop bars actually got into the lower position.  They all stayed up on the hoods or the flats the whole ride."

Typically, this is because their stems are too low and the drops are too low to use, unless your a pro rider or a top athlete.   If you raise the stem to get the tops at saddle height, the drops are very usuable.  I believe Grant P made this point in a RR in the past.

Also, above 15 mph, I can feel the increase drag from the wind resistance and go down to the drops to reduce it.     Others may be content with being more upright, but you need additional energy to do it.  

Just remember, wind resistance varies as the square of the velocity:   15 mph has 2.25 times the wind drag as at 10 mph ( (15/10)^2 ), even though you are going only 1.5 times as fast.    If you a going into a headwind, the wind speed adds to you wind resistance.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 8:12:02 AM UTC-4 Marc Irwin wrote:

Eric,

The point is that riders don't use that position.  Even against the wind, only one with drop bars actually got into the lower position.  They all stayed up on the hoods or the flats the whole ride.

Marc

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 7:38:12 AM UTC-4 Eric Daume wrote:

Is there any doubt drop bars aren’t faster? Less drag goes a long way. A more leaned over position lets you use your big butt muscles better. 

Leah is up front because she’s a strong rider. Maybe she would be up fronter if she had drops. 

Eric

With no drop bar bikes in the garage. 

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022, Marc Irwin <irwi...@gmail.com> wrote:

It was a normal Monday night ride with the Kalamazoo Bicycle Club.  A typical group was riding 15-16 MPH for 25 or so miles.  A good bunch of people in biking regalia on their over the counter crotch rockets with drop bars, except for me and Leah Peterson on our Rivendells. with upright bars.    In the lousy cell phone shot I took from the back of the group, Leah is the second white helmet from from the front left.  Notice her posture compared to the body position of all the riders on their drop bars.

It was that way the whole ride. Most club riders assume their drop bars make them faster, after all, EVERYBODY uses them right?  

Marc

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[Steven Sweedler‏]

I’m another rider who started wirh drops on my first 10 speed that I got for my thirteenth birthday. Still on drops 58 years later, always level with my saddle. Twice I’ve built up bikes with flat bars and always went back to drops. I do spend most  of my time on the ramps or hoods but whenever descending, once my speed reaches 25-30 mph I always reach for the drops and feel much more secure. I’m curious how others feel on upright bikes while descending. Steve

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[Wesley‏]

Hi Steve,

I love descending on upright bars! It is slower than getting into the drops because the upright posture creates a ton of wind resistance, but the enhanced view is more than worth it!

A few months ago, I converted my do-anything tank from drops to an albatross bar. The impetus was a hilly off-road ride where I felt unsafe descending on the drop bars. Hands on the hoods meant that if my hands slipped, they'd fly off the bars and I'd be injured in a fall. That risk was gone if I kept my hands in the drops, but then my body was leaned far forward in the descents and I had to be very careful not to get sent over the bars by braking or hitting rocks. Plus, the posture was terrible and I was stuck staring down at my wheel instead of the forest around me.

On the albatross bars, my descending position is the same as my quick-riding position: thumbs hooked over the bar and hands grabbing the body of my brake levers. When I need to brake, I can squeeze with my pinky or just shift my hand back an inch and squeeze. Having my thumb around the bar means it can't slip off, and I just find the hand position extremely comfortable. I just did a hilly weekend camping trip on a mix of roads and trails. This arrangement was fantastic!

-Wes

[Steven Sweedler‏]

Wes, sounds great. Thats why we have so many choices of bars, something for everyone. Steve

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