Plush old 531 steel frames (was being precious)

[Ted Durant]

On Wednesday, June 21, 2023 at 2:38:16 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

I've read that the PX-10 as well as old Raleigh Internationals from about the same period (late '60s and early '70s?) had plush yet nimble rides, I guess a combination of long, narrow-gauge, not-thick-wall tubes and gentle angles? I can't say that my contemporaneous Motobecane (1973, I was told and it looked right for that period) felt superlative, but it had no vices.

Time for a thread split!

As some of you may know, my Holdsworth Special, a late-70's British handbuilt 531 standard tube frame with parallel 73d angles, was my "frame" of reference going into the Heron project. Even though we used OS tubes for the Herons, I have always felt my prototype Heron Road has some of the magic.

In the 70's I worked in a bike shop that carried Fuji. The shop in the next town over carried Motobecane. It was a bit of a Ford vs Chevy thing for a very (VERY) small group of us. I test rode the Motobecanes and never liked their handling much. My Fujis, on the other hand, always felt perfect to me. Turns out they had super long fork rakes / short trail.

Another place in the area carried Raleigh. The guy I rode with the most had a Raleigh GS, and another friend had an International. After crashing my Fuji S10-S into the side of a car, I borrowed the International for our high school's inaugural Earth Day bike race. Despite the frame being way too big for me, I managed to get my one and only win in my career, beating a few of those Motobecane fanboys. Super sweet ride, but handling more like a Motobecane than a Fuji, which was fine for a race around the high school parking lot! The S10-S was replaced by a Fuji America, which also ran into a car. That was replaced by the Holdsworth, and I became a devout believer in 531 voodoo. 

Reynolds made 531 in a variety of wall thicknesses, so it can be hard to tell what's in a frame with generic labels. Sometimes they'll have labels that are more specific but, well, it's possible the label isn't correct! If you really want to know, find someone with a wall thickness measuring device.

In the spring of 1980 I went to France with a music group. In Paris I went to the rooftop of a department store where they were displaying bikes from Tour de France winners. Holy moly, those frames had been through the wars. Dents all over the place, especially the top tubes. My guess is those guys were using _really_ thin walls.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[Eric Norris]

I’m not an expert, but I believe that most/all of the bikes from the Alex Singer shop were made with 531. My two Singers are. 

One is made of the more unusual “531 Professional” tubeset, which featured thinner walls for lighter weight than standard 531 tubing.

531 Professional is rumored to be less durable than 531 because of the thinner walls, but I regularly ride the 531 Pro Singer (built in 1983) without any problems … and I’m by no means a “light” rider.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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[Ted Durant]

6:07:06 PM UTC-5 campyo...@me.com wrote:

One is made of the more unusual “531 Professional” tubeset, which featured thinner walls for lighter weight than standard 531 tubing.

531 Professional is rumored to be less durable than 531 because of the thinner walls, but I regularly ride the 531 Pro Singer (built in 1983) without any problems … and I’m by no means a “light” rider.

The durability issue is dent resistance and strength in a crash. If you don't smash your frame against a bedpost (how my mother wrecked my first Holdsworth...) you won't have a problem.

Attached for some nerdy fun are a couple of charts of tubing specs.

On Wednesday, June 21, 2023 at 

[Mike Godwin]

Oooh, I have some of those charts too.

I think the 531 magic was also in my 1970s era Bob Jackson, and less so in a 1974 Paramount and late 70s Vent Noir. The BJ did not have a model marquis transfer on the frame other than multiple BJ labels, but, no fender eyelets on the Campy dropouts, a 531 db tubes-stays-fork blade sticker, normal (57 mm) reach brakes, and no braze-ons for cable guides or shift levers. Compared to a Vent Noir of similar era, I sure liked the handling much better. And compared to the Paramount, better handling and lighter. That bike is/was a smooth riding rocket.  Come to think of it, the mid-80s Mercian, which disappeared in the 'ought-8 divorce garage sale. 

Mike SLO CA

[George Schick]

I, too had a mid-70's Bob Jackson and a late-70' Paramount built with 531 tubing.  Both were sold due to economic circumstances not long after.  But I recall that the Paramount of that era was rather crudely constructed with a poorly applied paint job, some mediocre components, and wheels that must've been machine-built with way overly tightened spokes that began to break soon after purchase.  Can't say much more positive about those frames other than that I wish all things had been assembled properly which would have allowed me to experience the true 531 ride without any negative hassles.

[Drew Fitchette]

Already told Ted, but outside of my Atlantis my other main bike is an 80's Holdsworth special. 

The cockpit was a mtn bike bar with index thumbies when I got it, so I put the mustache bars on it with some Exage levers from my parts bin. 

The rest of the components are all Shimano 600 Arabesque and still work flawslessly. Been thinking about changing the 27's to 700c and getting a slightly wider gear range though. 

Unfortunately the Reynolds sticker is mangled and hard to know what it says. 

[brendonoid]

My late 80s Holdsworth Mistral is 531c (I assume that's the competition tubing?) And is the only frame I've ridden that has that "planing" feeling that Jan gets so hot under the collar for.

I have converted it to 650b and it is my go to roadish bike when I'm not on a Riv. Definitely a special frame.

[Eric Norris]

For the tubing nerds out there: the 531 Professional decal (in French) on my 1983 Alex Singer. 

–Eric N

On Jun 23, 2023, at 6:53 PM, brendonoid <bre...@areyoualert.com> wrote:



My late 80s Holdsworth Mistral is 531c (I assume that's the competition tubing?) And is the only frame I've ridden that has that "planing" feeling that Jan gets so hot under the collar for.

I have converted it to 650b and it is my go to roadish bike when I'm not on a Riv. Definitely a special frame.

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[JohnS]

Hello Eric N,

Thanks for the close up of your bike. Because of it I noticed the clamped on water bottle cage on the seat tube. Do you like? Which brand is it? I would like to add a water bottle cage to my '82 Sequoia's down tube (Tange Special Series Touring, Cro-Mo Double Butted), great riding bike, so much more lively than my Surly Pacer.

JohnS

[Ted Durant]

I know at least one of you has mentioned having an Austro-Daimler Vent Noir. Spotted this on a rack at Waterford today. Also of interest, the current owner of Heron Bicycles had Waterford build a run of Heron frames before shutting their doors. The owner sent it to Waterford to be measured as the basis for a custom frame to be built. Also, Cody (I think that's the right name), if you're having Waterford repaint your Rivendell in light French blue metallic, please send me a private message, I have a photo for you.

[Eric Norris]

The mount I added to the Singer is this one:

It’s been solid and dependable. The device adds mounting points—you provide the bottle cage.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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[JohnS]

Thank you Eric,

JohnS

[Jamie Hascall]

My first "real" bike after my two-speed Schwinn Typhoon was a Frejus I bought at Robert's Cyclery in Chicago. It was the first bike I'd ever ridden that felt alive. I rode that all through high school and college. Years later I picked up a nicely restored '63 Jack Taylor Super International frame from a shop in Portland. It was my first 531 frame and I built it up to ride with a batch of Ultegra parts that I had. It was the fastest bike I've ever ridden. I don't know if that's objectively true, but it had a feel like nothing I've ever been on. Sadly, the short Jack Taylor brazed stem and the long top tube made the riding position too stretched out for my aging body to ride the long distances I'd planned on and it got relegated to short rides and eventually taken out of use. It hangs in the corner of my shop and needs a new home.

[Ryan]

Lovely understated frame. I take it that the braze-on on the fork is for a generator. But I can't figure out what's up with the braze-on and bolt in the middle of that coppery stem. What is it for?

[Patrick Moore]

I think that the bracket on the right fork leg is meant for a battery powered headlight; the vertical arm has the same dimensions and shape as that of the ubiquitous headset-mounted "L" bracket on old British roadsters meant to support a headlight, and many headlights, battery and otherwise, were made to slot on to these brackets.

Long, long ago as an 11-year-old in Bangalore circa 1966, long, long before Bangalore became the Indian tech hub it is today, and when it was still a gently decaying ex-British military cantonment, my US Foreign Service father very nicely bought me a Hero rod brake roadster for my birthday to replace the outgrown 24" wheel JC Higgins bought at the local downtown (Clinton, MD) tires, brakes, and sporting goods store some 4 years earlier. 

Even at 11 I wanted to customize my bikes, so I went out and bought a true Victorian relic still made at the time in Bangalore, a box-shaped oil-lamp-with-wick-adjustable-with-little-wick-turnkey at the side, wee little chimney on top, with spring-loaded parallelogram arm with sleeve meant to slot onto the headset bracket just described or, indeed, one of these on the fork leg. The "Bullseye" front lens was mounted in a little door that opened so that you could light the wick, and the lamp had a reservoir for fuel; come to think of it now, perhaps it was made for paraffin (US: kerosene) instead of the cooking oil I filled it with. At any rate, even in my youthful naïveté I remarked how dim the oil-fueled light was; I daresay that kerosene might have given minimally decent illumination.

I have no idea what the doodad on the stem extension is. 

Mine was more modern and streamlined than this one (it was 1966 after all) but it was basically the same thing -- and yes, per the etsy description, I should have used kerosene.

On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 12:27 PM Ryan <ryte...@mts.net> wrote:

Lovely understated frame. I take it that the braze-on on the fork is for a generator. But I can't figure out what's up with the braze-on and bolt in the middle of that coppery stem. What is it for?

[Garth]

Here's my current setup of my '99 Franklin "Bradley" custom road/sport bike made of 531ST. It's a 62cm C-T with a 62cm TT, with 18" chainstays. I measured the BB  drop once but can't remember what it was, likely 68-70ish. This is my preference, which I never thought about 'tll I got the Bombadil which still feels odd to me with the 80mm drop.

I just love the way it handles and rides, just like all the fine European racing bikes I owned but maxed out in the chainstays and the extra long top tube with a 1" head tube extension. Mid trail, low 50ish I think.18" chainstays is/was the max for Reynolds and that's fine as it takes a normal chain. I eventually sold all those former frames as they never fit me well in length. Mostly they were Columbus SL/SP/SPX and Reynolds 531C.

I was going to put on some drop bars but since trying out new racing saddles I needed to get that sorted out first. On there is a Cobb San Remo which is exactly what I was looking for as it's very narrow between the legs and 35mm wide though the nose. Despite having a long narrow bridged cutout, I don't notice it at all as the light but dense padding with a flexible base is flawless. I ended up lowering the steel 56cm. Albatross bars to about level and I found I really like it, so maybe later for the drops. My hands are always at the most forward position on the straights and @ the curves.

That's the original Topeak Road Morph pump on there. I greased the gasket just once and that was last year. I noticed I've forgotten to trim the FD cable .... I think it's been

that way for a year ! I was playing around with cable lengths and.... oh well. Those Suntour XC Pro brakes on this frame are the epitome of the perfect brake, it's just PFM.

[Garth]

Two more as three was two too many. The software here sucks as these images are only 3.7mb. The paper clip can't handle it.

[Jamie Hascall]

Patrick was correct on the bracket on the fork of the Jack Taylor. That was the bracket for the headlamp. The fitting on the top of the stem is an integral center-pull brake cable hanger and adjuster. I had it set up with some long reach Mafac brakes and it worked beautifully. Here's a close-up. The rear brake hanger was nicely done as well.

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 3:57:49 PM UTC-7 Garth wrote:

[Will Boericke]

This thread makes me appreciate my vintage 531 bike all the more.  It's a Raleigh Lenton Gran Prix from the 60s.  Shod with Barlow Pass, it truly floats over everything.  Set up as a simple 3-speed path racer, it reduces the riding experience to simple moving along.  I've been thinking about having a low-rider single-sided rack made to fit the lamp bracket and fender boss but have not gotten around to it.

[lconley]

How about a plush NEW 531 frame - my Pashley Guv'nor 3 speed (shifter mounted on seatpost). I need to measure the frame angles on this. I have switched to a Sturmey Archer Dyno-Hub w/90mm drum brake from the standard front 70mm drum brake since this picture was taken.

Laing

[Eric Norris]

I LOVED my Guvnor! Rode it a lot in the early 2000s, culminating in an 1,100-mile ride from Santa Rosa to Seattle.

Finally sold it only because it wasn’t getting on the road enough and needed a new home where it would be enjoyed and used.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy

YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

On Jun 28, 2023, at 5:08 AM, lconley <lco...@brph.com> wrote:

How about a plush NEW 531 frame - my Pashley Guv'nor 3 speed (shifter mounted on seatpost). I need to measure the frame angles on this. I have switched to a Sturmey Archer Dyno-Hub w/90mm drum brake from the standard front 70mm drum brake since this picture was taken.

<IMG_1535s.jpg>

Laing

On Wednesday, June 28, 2023 at 7:27:38 AM UTC-4 wboe...@gmail.com wrote:

This thread makes me appreciate my vintage 531 bike all the more.  It's a Raleigh Lenton Gran Prix from the 60s.  Shod with Barlow Pass, it truly floats over everything.  Set up as a simple 3-speed path racer, it reduces the riding experience to simple moving along.  I've been thinking about having a low-rider single-sided rack made to fit the lamp bracket and fender boss but have not gotten around to it.

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 7:39:33 PM UTC-4 mr.wa...@gmail.com wrote:

Patrick was correct on the bracket on the fork of the Jack Taylor. That was the bracket for the headlamp. The fitting on the top of the stem is an integral center-pull brake cable hanger and adjuster. I had it set up with some long reach Mafac brakes and it worked beautifully. Here's a close-up. The rear brake hanger was nicely done as well.

On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 3:57:49 PM UTC-7 Garth wrote:

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<IMG_1535s.jpg>

[Patrick Moore]

This is the sort of bike I imagine building that Libertas into; in fact, it's probably what I should build that 2020 Matt 2:1 into, tho' now it has fenders and f+r racks and integrated lights and so on. If our local dirt was not sometimes-deepish sand, my Matt 1:1 would be more like this.

For a while my commuter/errand beater/child trailer puller was an early sport tourer Raleigh Technium with relaxed angles and long stays. I found some 32 mm Vittorias online -- fat for the very early aughts and for me who was accustomed to 22 mm 559 Specialized Turbos even on his commuter/grocery bike. The long wheelbase, the flexible aluminum tubes, and the "fat" 32s made me remember delivering an early '70s Oldsmobile 88 or whatever the biggest, fattest, softest Olds of the day was: like riding on marshmallows, yet it didn't pedal as if riding in cold molasses. 67" fixed drivetrain. One of the few beaters I wish I'd kept.

[Patrick Moore]

Some of us boast of a lovely 30 mile ride and then we read about this casual 1,100 mile jaunt. Kudos, Eric.

In similar vein, a friend who just completed his 3rd or so Santa Fe century, known for "heartbreak hill," was just telling me that he saw an older gentleman in his 70s who rode the route, heartbreak hill included, on a fixed gear. As the Psalm says (KJV, accept no other), "I am a worm and no man."

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Andrew Scherer]

I hear variants of "plush" used when folks discuss steel and particularly 531 but I'm not sure what to make of it. I have 6 bikes with 531 frames and I ride them all: 1970 Raleigh Pro Mk I, a Falcon San Remo of undetermined age but likely 1969-1971, a 1971 Raleigh International, a 1972 PX-10, a 1972 Paramount, and a 1987 531c Mercian Professional. Sizes are 62-63cm for reference, and most of them run Compass or similar Panaracer tires. Each has different characteristics related to how the bike responds to steering effort delivered at the front end or through shifting weight/center of gravity, and a general sense of what I'll call rigidity. Perhaps it's because they're all the same base material, but I wonder if geometry, wheelbase, and tires makes more of a difference than materials. They all feel "comfortable" but the range is significant. The PX10 and the Falcon have a strong self-centering steering feel and the PX10 requires more effort to change direction. I'd say "steady and predictable". At the other end of the spectrum the Mercian has criterium geometry and feels very light, the steering is super responsive and at the same time the whole bike feels more solid/rigid than the others. I didn't like riding it on rough/urban roads until I changed the tires from 23c Michelin Pros to 28c (that barely fit) Soma Supple VItesse. The Raleigh Pro and International fall somewhere towards the PX10 to different degrees, and the Paramount seems to be smack in the middle. FWIW I've had the Mercian since it was new and if I could only keep one, that would be it.

Anecdotally, the International was the first of the above I added to the fleet some 7 years ago after a friend convinced me to buy the frame. I built it to more or less the catalog spec and took a first ride with him. As we came up to a small pothole on a descent I used my Mercian reflexes to shift the bike around it and ended up sailing right through it...not enough "oomph" for that setup!

Andy