Susie 53 - 56 Sizing Help Please!

[☆ Paul ☆]

Hey Y'all.

I spoke with Grant this afternoon, who told me that at 5'10 with 75.5 PBH I could go for either a M (53) or or L (56) Susie, and they'd both work for me. 

I'd really prefer a 53 because of the 650B wheels, but want to double check the fit before I pre-order. My 5'7" wife just got her 52 Clem L, and I can ride it too but the top of the head tube is a bit low. It would require a maxed out tall stem to get the bars up where I like them.

Does anyone have a 53 Susie out there? How tall are you and how is it working for you? 

Can you upload a photo?

Also if anyone can help: I'm trying to sort out what measurement to ask for that would give me the top of the head tube height vs. top of seat tube height, so I can make sure the head tube is longer than on the Clem L, and that I don't have to have a crazy high stem on the Susie if I buy the 53.

Hope I'm making sense here.

Thanks all!

🙏

Paul

[Mark Roland]

Hi Paul. I have a 52 Clem L and I am waiting on a Susie 56. I am also 5'10" and I also spoke with Grant.  I suspect you meant saddle height 75.5, not PBH? Anyway, I ride with my saddle these days in the neighborhood of 74cm. I went with the 56/700c large Susie for a couple of reasons. First, I already have the 650B Clem, and I really am in the zone where I could go either way, so wanted to make the bikes as different as possible. Second, Grant recommended going L. Third, they were out of M.

[☆ Paul ☆]

Hi Mark.

Thanks for your note. Yes, I meant 75.5 saddle height, andI have a 85.5 PBH :). Long day at work. 

(My dad is the same height as me and is crazy bow-legged, and probably pulls off a 75 PBH, actually.)

Your ordering logic makes sense — I just really want to go the smaller 53 frame with 650B if the frame will fit me. Don't want to get the size wrong when I pre-order as the frames always sell out by the time the order arrives!

Thanks 

Paul

[kim young]

Hi Paul- 

Am still not finished - but here’s the Susie in a 53.

I think my bars are too high. 

I know I have a 120mm v-brake somewhere. I’m in the middle of swapping that out, because the 110’s seem awfully close to the tires.

(I’m 5’6/ pbh 84)

It’s a beautiful bike and super comfortable.

I only tested it a tiny bit on the trails here.

However, I am finding that riding it takes way more effort than normal. My local terrain is rough and rocky. Maybe if I were tall and strong like Deacon Patrick it would be ideal (goals!!) So it must be the length and I’m short - getting up over logs and boulders and the climbs seems almost impossibly hard.

(It’s way easier for me on my other shorter bikes.)  

So we’ll see how or if I can adjust. 

If anything, it will make a peaceful gravel bike for rides up along the control road. Or I can use it to get to my mailbox in style and my neighbors farm to get the eggs and I will pretend I’m French. (But doesn’t that kind of make it a Clem ?)

Grant was confident it would greatly improve my off-road rides, but that may be a stretch ...lol

If you have other questions let me know .

From kim

They said mine was one of the last to go out, so I hope Mark must be getting his soon.

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[kim young]

Ps: that top-normal shift great btw! - thx joe :) 

[Hetchins52]

Paul,

Still finishing up my 53 Susie but it’s done enough to give you some measurements of head tube versus seat tube heights:

The head tube itself is 23 cm long but I don’t have a Clem L for comparison. (It is 7 cm longer than the head tube of my 51 Appaloosa.)

Measuring from the top of the headset’s locknut to the ground is 95 cm.

I’ve installed a 10 cm Nitto DirtDrop stem and, at close to max extension, that puts the bar center at about 110 cm from the ground.

Measuring from the top of the seat cluster lug (ignoring the pointy bit) to the ground is 81 cm. 

With the saddle at 73 cm extension from the bottom bracket center, saddle center is 99 cm to the floor.

I'm 5' 8 ½" and my PBH is about 83 cm.

[Measurements are approximate….]

I’ll take it outside and take a picture tomorrow.

David Lipsky

Berkeley, CA

On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 5:04:05 PM UTC-7, ☆ Paul ☆ wrote:

.....

[☆ Paul ☆]

Hello David and Kim,

Thanks for your notes, and for the picture and measurements.

If one of you could do the following measurement for me, I'd be extremely grateful:

• Could you please measure from the center of the front wheel axel a in straight line to the top of the headset (but not spacers).  
  
• Also could you please measure from the top of the seat tube (ignoring the little part that pokes out) parallel to the ground to where your tape measure hits the center of the head tube or stem? Measure from center of seat tube to center of head tube, if that makes sense. Someone else emailed me directly and is doing the same for a 56 for me. I'll post the results for everyone to see, if it's of use!
  

That’s probably all I need. Thank you!!!!

[kim young]

Straight up in the air- from center of front axle . if there was an imaginary line to top of headset cup- connects at about 58mm. 

(But measuring up the fork angle to the cup,  is about 55.)

From center of seat tube - just above the seat stay, to center of head tube is about 62.5.

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[☆ Paul ☆]

Hello Kim!

THANK YOU SO MUCH for the measurements.

Just to make sure we're measuring the same thing for the front-of-bike-measurement:

Please measure from the center of the front axel in a straight line to the top of headset on top of the the top tube. Like the blue line in the image attached!!! 

These are kind of non-conventional measurements, but since I know the seat-tube length and head-tube angle, I can use them to compare with my Atlantis' bikes (I have two) and my wife's Clem!!!

🙏 Thanks!!!

Paul

[☆ Paul ☆]

Here's an image of the other measurement, by the way, which I think you did and came out 62.5cm.  Sort of like turning these bikes into old triangle-frame bikes :0). Probably could have done this in a more conventional way, but this will work!!

[kim young]

Hi paul 

Yes will send you some numbers on your dm

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[Garth]

   As a note in general about viewing frames on the Riv website. They use the same background for every bike they photograph. I used to remember how many centimeters there is in between each line, if someone recalls please do share. Using that same backdrop makes it easy to spot differences in heights between head tube and seat tube heights, whether you include the headset or not, as long as you're consistent. When I first saw the Susie/Gus it was easy to spot how much higher the HT was than any other Riv frame !

[Mark Roland]

Hi Kim. Build looks great! Mine is a 56/L, and they/we are/were waiting on forks for these, hopefully came/coming soon. Though honestly have been lazy and still have not put together the wheels. Also a little concerned about my brakes, I think they may be on the short side at 108ish . I have a set of knobby 29 x 2.6" tires. I hope my v-brake clears.

On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 10:12:51 PM UTC-4, Flowerfang wrote:

They said mine was one of the last to go out, so I hope Mark must be getting his soon.

On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 5:20 PM ☆ Paul ☆ <pa...@superplastic.co> wrote:

Hi Mark.

Thanks for your note. Yes, I meant 75.5 saddle height, andI have a 85.5 PBH :). Long day at work. 

(My dad is the same height as me and is crazy bow-legged, and probably pulls off a 75 PBH, actually.)

Your ordering logic makes sense — I just really want to go the smaller 53 frame with 650B if the frame will fit me. Don't want to get the size wrong when I pre-order as the frames always sell out by the time the order arrives!

Thanks 

Paul

On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 8:14:04 PM UTC-4, Mark Roland wrote:

Hi Paul. I have a 52 Clem L and I am waiting on a Susie 56. I am also 5'10" and I also spoke with Grant.  I suspect you meant saddle height 75.5, not PBH? Anyway, I ride with my saddle these days in the neighborhood of 74cm. I went with the 56/700c large Susie for a couple of reasons. First, I already have the 650B Clem, and I really am in the zone where I could go either way, so wanted to make the bikes as different as possible. Second, Grant recommended going L. Third, they were out of M.

On Tuesday, September 8, 2020 at 8:04:05 PM UTC-4, ☆ Paul ☆ wrote:

Hey Y'all.

I spoke with Grant this afternoon, who told me that at 5'10 with 75.5 PBH I could go for either a M (53) or or L (56) Susie, and they'd both work for me. 

I'd really prefer a 53 because of the 650B wheels, but want to double check the fit before I pre-order. My 5'7" wife just got her 52 Clem L, and I can ride it too but the top of the head tube is a bit low. It would require a maxed out tall stem to get the bars up where I like them.

Does anyone have a 53 Susie out there? How tall are you and how is it working for you? 

Can you upload a photo?

Also if anyone can help: I'm trying to sort out what measurement to ask for that would give me the top of the head tube height vs. top of seat tube height, so I can make sure the head tube is longer than on the Clem L, and that I don't have to have a crazy high stem on the Susie if I buy the 53.

Hope I'm making sense here.

Thanks all!

🙏

Paul

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[kim young]

:) Thanks mark.

Does seems pretty tight with the 11Os - even tho those arms are so long already,

seems like a mudcatcher? 

I put the rhino cranks on mine - so I wouldn’t be too jelly about your kooka’s! Lol

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[Mark Roland]

Maybe it will help shave the mud off?! But yeah, that looks a bit tight, and my tires are bigger at 2.6. We'll see where the braze-on placement puts them on the yet to be delivered 700c fork redo. (Don't be all jelly--yours is actually in your possession and ridable!;^)

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[Ash]

Hey Paul,

It's been a busy day I have not had a chance to catch up with this thread.  Regardless, thought I'd share couple of pictures and my two cents.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/16-STunfWYCEndP2nIAWrJ6RRfnCyYYm5?usp=sharing

I'm 5'7" with 81cm PBH.  First I picked up a 53cm Wolbis.  After attaching wheels, pedals and few stem/handlebar combos, I quickly realized that it was too big for me.  It is one loong bike, in the first place. I've had 51cm Appaloosa before,  but this one felt even longer. This bike runs large in general, IMO.  I'm always grateful for Riv's top notch customer service.  They happily exchanged the frame for a 50cm version, which fits me much better.  

As you can see in the pic, even with the small size, I have to use a relatively short reach stem to get full upright riding position (even with Bosco!).   

Bottom line, I think 53cm would work better for you.  If the handlebar is too close, you have an option to use a longer stem.  But if the frame happens to be on the longer side, then there's no  easy/clean option to bring the handlebar to a comfortable position.

Cheers,

Ash

PS:  Those pictures were taken around 3pm today.  No retro/sepia filter used.  The light has been orange-ish and gloomy all day.  My kid took the picture, looks like he was having a hard time focusing the camera, due to low light.

[☆ Paul ☆]

Hello Ash

Thank you for your note. I really appreciate the advice and photos.

Yes, I also concluded that the 53 is right for me, and it does seem to measure super-long. I like Billie Bars, which come way back already, so a short-ish stem should work just fine for me. Do you find that the bike turns funny at all up front give how far that front wheel is out there in front of you? IT seems like a pretty slack angle!

Sorry to see the orange skies! I live in Vermont but grew up in Berkeley, and get reports from my mom. Hope it clears up soon!!

Best,

Paul

[Hetchins52]

Please measure from the center of the front axel in a straight line to the top of headset on top of the the top tube. 

My 53 measures 65.2 cm to top of adjustable race from the hub's axle. (So, no spacer or locknut.)

David Lipsky

On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 8:01:36 AM UTC-7, ☆ Paul ☆ wrote:

......

[Hetchins52]

Measure from center of seat tube to center of head tube, if that makes sense.

I get a little longer measurement, in my very cramped basement workshop, so bike may not have been quite level. Actually its not likely as the front tire is a 650 x 60 (2.35") G-One and the rear is a 650 x 70 (2.80")!

I get:  64.7 cm

David

[Hetchins52]

It is longer than the not-Hillibikes! For comparison, I have Ash's original 51 MIT Appaloosa. Susie has a longer wheel base than the JoeA, along with longer other dimensions:

dimensions

Susie Longbolts 53

Joe Appaloosa 51 cm

front center	72 cm	62 cm
rear chain stay to BB	54 cm	52.5 cm
wheelbase	125 cm = 49.2”	> 113 cm = 44.5”

David

Berkeley

[Hetchins52]

Here's a picture of some cheap Shimano V-brakes (also 108 mm-ish) on the rear of my 53cm Susie. Using Schwalbe G-One AllRound 650 x 70 (2.80") on Atlas rims. Very close (~5mm) to the noodle's dirt boot; About 18 mm clearance to the seat stay bridge of the frame.

The front is using Avid "Ultimate" cantilevers so no clearance issue for the straddle cable but maybe 9 mm to the bottom of the fork crown. I tried the 70 mm AllRound on Atlas rims but had about 3.5 mm clearance and decided against using it. The second picture shows a 650 x 60 mm Schwalbe G-One Speed. 

Vince at Rivendell wrote this last month:

"I think part of the issue is the Atlas rims. The brake posts on the Hillibikes are set wider apart than usual and require a rim that's 30mm or more wide."

"I just checked a 650B Susie with a Cliffhanger rim and the same G-One you have. The vertical clearance is 6mm. We haven't had any trouble with the demo bikes."

David

Berkeley 

On Wednesday, September 9, 2020 at 11:57:53 AM UTC-7, Flowerfang wrote:

:) Thanks mark.

Does seems pretty tight with the 11Os - even tho those arms are so long already,

.....

[Ash]

Paul,

As for your question on Susie's turning characteristics given how far out the front wheel is, I have not noticed any problem.  Generally it feels so stable, I feel the bike is doing the steering for me.  If Elon Musk were to market this bike, he'd definitely claim it came with autopilot feature :)

3-4 weeks ago I rode 100k with ~15 lbs weight in Wald's basket in the front. One small issue I noticed happens at tight corners on trails.  It requires a tad  bit more maneuvering effort  than regular (the 50cm MIT Atlantis I had owned for instance) bikes.  It probably has more to do with overall wheelbase than front-center or fork-rake.   That small inconvenience gets you a ton extra ride comfort in return.  The extra bend (or maybe the overall angle contributes too) in the fork makes it sort of dance when you go over gravels and other road imperfections.  I think it acts like a micro shock-absorber.  The feeling is simply delightful.  It makes me often avoid the smooth side of the trail and ride on the bumpy side, if available.

Cheers,

Ash

[☆ Paul ☆]

Hello Ash.

This is so helpful. Thank you!

[kim young]

Thanks for putting up all the info David.

Your bike sounds cool!

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