Leo Roadini on Brevet--SFR Del Puerto Canyon 200k ride report

[Bill Lindsay]

Yesterday was the Del Puerto Canyon 200k brevet, hosted by San Francisco Randonneurs. Luckily for me the day remained conflict-free and I was able to do it.  It was the 26th RUSA event of my career of 200k or greater, and I logged my best time ever: 8 hours 18 minutes.  

I woke up a little earlier than I needed to, at 4:45AM.  I was able to pack light because of the amazing weather forecast.  The Del Puerto Canyon 200k starts and finishes in Pleasanton, CA, just south of Mount Diablo.  The ride goes out and over the hills that make up the Altamont Pass,meanders through the flat farm roads around Tracy and Wesley, and then returns out and over the same hills via Del Puerto Canyon.  The forecast called for temps in the low 50s to start and venturing into the high 70s in some places.  So I wore bib-shorts, a light base layer, short sleeve jersey, arm warmers and a reflective vest.  The ride started at 8AM, which would be light enough to not require any lighting.  Sunset would come at about 6PM, so I did bring lights just in case I went over 10 hours.  I carried a little Cygolite Dart (from Riv), a battery taillight, and two elastic head lamps that could serve as backup head or tail lights. I also carried a USB battery stick in case I needed to boost my phone, Wahoo, or headlight.  In my Ruthworks rackless Brevet bag went those lighting bits, a few bars, and a travel size sunscreen for when the armwarmers came off and the guns came out.  I made coffee and breakfast, got lubed up and dressed and I was a good 25 minutes ahead of schedule.  I had planned to catch the 6:20AM Bart train, and it's a 5-minute bomb down the hill to get to the Bart station.  I went ahead and decided to grab the 6:00AM train instead and left early, and still had to wait on the platform for several minutes.  The Fremont Train takes me down past Oakland to the transfer station at Bay Fair, where I transfer to a Pleasanton train to head over the hills in Castro Valley out to the start. There was a delay due to track repair, and a chilly wait for my Pleasanton train, but I was still at the start with my card in plenty of time.  

The turnout for this event was huge; the biggest ever for this event which was first run in 2011.  ~150 randos had signed up, partially because of the great weather forecast, partially because there is always an uptick in participation the year before a PBP year, and partially because this is SFRs flattest 200k, with "only" 5300 ft of climbing. It was a huge bunch that started off. I didn't want to get sucked up with any of the 'too fast' groups, so I looked for familiar SFR riders who I knew were in my time-zone and hung with them for the first ~15 miles through the urban streets of Pleasanton and Livermore before the first climb began. That first climb was around 1200ft, with a gradually increasing grade all along its length, topping off at around 10% at the peak. This did a good job of stretching out the riders, and there was essentially no traffic so it was a great time to move up. I was feeling good, so I left the familiar group behind and passed a lot of slower riders. I was aiming for a decent time, and one way to make a good time is to not waste a lot of time at controls. The first control threatened to be a time sink if you arrive within a few minutes of a lot of other riders, because there would be only one volunteer to stamp your card, while a second volunteer checks your name on the roster. I was motivated to move up if I could, and I found a great rhythm on Leo. Checking my Strava, the majority of the climb is captured in the "Tesla Topper" segment. That 8.24 mile segment climbs 981ft, and I averaged 13.3mph for that segment. If I could average >20kph on one of the few climbs, a sub-10-hour ride and finishing before dark was looking good. 

I found a partner to paceline with on the fast descent, who noted "we should get the miles in NOW, while we have a tailwind". The descent and the flat farm roads on the valley floor felt like cheating, we were moving really fast. I found another group of strong riders to work with on the farm roads, which were thankfully quite smooth and almost car-free. I noticed another rider up the road a bit, so I pushed harder to bridge up to him, and looked back to find that I'd left that group of ~6 behind.  I stayed with this faster rider until we hit the first control at mile 44 at 10:30AM. That control was filled with roadie types, who I assumed were the tail-end of the 'fast' group on our ride. I got my card stamped, cut/augmented my home-made gatorade with a bottle of water, and got right back on the road with a roadie group. Turns out, they were on a different ride and I followed them in the wrong direction. I only lost a couple minutes on my detour, and quickly got back on the right course. It was another 15 miles to an open control in a small town at the beginning of Del Puerto Canyon road. I got more drinks, this time my Tour de France formula of Coke mixed with OJ, and cut with water. 

Del Puerto Canyon Road is one of the longest continuous climbs I know of in the Bay Area.  For roughly 25 miles, you are going up-hill, gradually, almost without letup. It's only 2200 feet, but it is definitely relentless. This day was somewhat harder because the winds were strong, and in some stretches it was a fierce headwind, in others a strong crosswind, and in others you were protected by the canyon and kind of baking. Again, it was beneficial to find a rhythm and stay on it. I was able to do that well on Leo. I was largely solo, passing a few riders along the way. The last stretch of Del Puerto Canyon is quite steep, 12-15%, and on that final grind I caught Rob Hawks, our RBA just as we were reaching the final intermediate control at mile 85, The Junction Cafe. The 'fast group' had left by then, and this wave included more randos who would treat themselves to a beer and/or a burger. Rob Hawks got himself an IPA, but I was still holding out hope for my first ever 8-hour (wall-clock) time, so I did not tarry long.  After getting my card stamped, I grabbed a purple Gatorade and a water, ate a Clif bar and headed back out. 

After The Junction there are two smallish but mean little climbs before the LONG Mines Road descent.  For roughly 25 miles continuously you are riding down hill.  Very gradually down hill, but downhill all the time. This was kind of frustrating because the headwind that had pushed me south earlier in the day was stopping me from really getting going now that I was heading north. I would have needed to average ~22mph to get to the finish in under 8 hours, and the wind was clearly going to make that impossible for me, despite the grade. The one steep downhill on Mines Road is quite twisty and I really opened Leo up on that stretch. It's a really fun bike on twisty descents.  It's got long chainstays and a long front center, so it really rails stable and fast around sweeping turns. It's not a nervous, twitchy 'race bike'.  It's a fast cruising road bike. It's not sprightly, it's swift. I noticed the difference between an evolved road bike and a traditional 'race bike' in the final 10 miles or so back in town. The stops and starts at all the traffic signals might have been more fun with a bike that was 'quicker off the line', but at mile 115, I was feeling I had made a good choice with a machine that had put me in a position to work in comfort. I was partially resigned to miss my stretch goal of sub-8-hours, and sort of cruised in to the finish at a moderate effort. The traffic was insane anyway, so getting in safe was a higher priority than shaving those last couple of minutes.  I pulled into the finish-Starbucks at 4:18 and turned in my card. The first finisher, Brian, had set a course record exactly one hour faster than me, at 7:18, and he was still there, waiting for a few of his friends. I hung out for a short while chatting with some fellow randos and then rode back to BART for the return trip home. Strava gave me credit for 126.5 miles, 5144ft of climbing and 7:45 moving time (16.3mph average). That's a splendid day on the bike for me.

So, while lots of vocal people very sincerely and very stridently indicate that they strongly prefer, or even require the very thinnest lightest tubing in order to enjoy a bicycle, I can definitely say that the fit, handling and build are far higher priorities to me. I love a bike that is light, don't get me wrong. If there was a 'gravity knob' on my bike, I'd turn it down. If I could wave a magic wand and make my Leo Roadini 17 pounds instead of 22, I would. That said, if I swapped out my $900 Leo Roadini frameset for a $2600 Roadeo frameset, I would get some things. I'd get about a pound lighter bike, that has more pretty lugs. I'd get thinner tubing, but I still have no idea what thinner tubing would give me in any objective sense. How many minutes faster would I have been off my personal best? 2 minutes?  5 minutes?  I would not have been an hour faster and hung with Brian, that's for sure. There's no chance I would have been fresher, or happier or safer. It may have been infinitesimally 'better', and almost certainly would have been no worse, but there was no characteristic of the Leo Roadini that got in my way or prevented me from having a great day on the bike. There is a HUGE swath of road bike owners that I see on my rides, many of them as I passed them yesterday, that look like they could be having a much more pleasant time on a bike like the Leo Roadini, and a lot less like the 'racer-wanna-be' machines they were on. Many of those riders can't even reach the drops or the hooks, and spend all day on the hoods or the tops. Shouldn't that tell them something? I feel like it could tell them they are on a racing bike and they aren't racers. I'm the last person who would ever tell somebody that they shouldn't like the bike they are on, but at the same time, whenever I hear somebody diss the Roadini, what I hear is "I don't want a fast, stable, comfortable road bike for long athletic road rides. I want a bike that looks more like a racing bike". That's totally cool if that's what you want. I know I could have done yesterdays brevet on a Roadeo or a Roadini, and I think I would have had the same day on either one. If a Roadeo frame is 1 pound lighter, then I estimate I would have been a few whole minutes faster.  If I had not carried any of the lighting that I didn't need, I could have been another few whole minutes faster. Maybe I could have made my 8-hour goal, had I shaved every extraneous ounce. Those ounces and those minutes would have not changed the fact that I had another great day on the bike. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[WETH]

Bill,
Congratulations on your great day. Your descriptive prose had me climbing and descending with you. Also thanks for your reasoned thoughts on Leo.
Erl
Kensington, MD

[Eric Daume]

That's a great story Bill. Riv should give you a commission on any Roadinis sold in the next week!

Eric

who only managed to ride about six miles between kids' games and football yesterday

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[Metin Uz]

Nice ride Bill! Just to correct the record, a bunch of roadies actually came in under 7 hours. Bryan got a PR, but not the CR. I saw the Roadini at the finish, was wondering whose that was.

--Metin

[Bill Lindsay]

Metin

Thanks for the correction on PR vs CR times. I saw you mingling and was going to say 👋, but you appeared to be in a conversation.

Best
Bill

[Randy Franks]

Great report and congratulations!

[Deacon Patrick]

Fantastic, Bill! Delightful to read how Leo and you enjoyed the day. I got a kick out of reading your load, having just been thankful for my panniers to haul my boiled wool sweater, et al for my hangout at the top of the trail in the snow. Ain’t it wonderful how bikes do everything? Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Lum Gim Fong]

Congrats on the great ride!!!

Sounds like so much fun!

I wish I was strong enough to do those types of rides. Sounds delightful.

Glad the Roadini performed so well for you. Sounds like a great machine!

[Steven Sweedler]

Bill, very enjoyable report, congrats for a great day on tbe bike. Steve

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[John G.]

Amen to this line: "fit, handling and build are far higher priorities to me." Now, a I'd much rather take 25 pound than a 35 pound bike on brevet, but a bike that fits and handles well will ALWAYS be more enjoyable for me than a featherweight jitterbug that has me straining to even reach the hooks. 

Bill, what's your gearing on the Roadini? I'm a bit terrified that 5K of climbing is considered flat for a 200K! Smart gearing seems essential.

[Lum Gim Fong]

You can have fit, good handling, and a good build on a 6/4/6 Rivendell, too. Why not?

[Lum Gim Fong]

That is if you find that 6/4/6 makes things easier for you.

[Bill Lindsay]

John G asked about the gearing on my Leo ♌️.

It’s a 2x10. White Industries VBC crankset with 44/30 rings and a Shimano 12-30 cassette. I use Shimano indexed barcon shifters.

5000ft over 125miles really is tame in the SFR catalog. When the mountain bike racing season arrives, we’ll do 30 mile training rides with >5000ft of climbing. I did a 200k mixed terrain brevet with SFR earlier this year that had over 13,000ft of climbing. That was a toughie!

Bill Lindsay
#6551

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

Congrats on the strong finish! And thanks for that write-up; as usual, it's a great read.

Bob E

Cranford, NJ

[Dave Grossman]

Bill, great write up.  I was going to PM you with some Roadini questions as I have been dead set on finding a used Roadeo, and then you posted this.  You bring up some valid points about weight, lugs, and overall usage.  This aint no crit racer.  Maybe a less expensive new Roadini is what I should be looking for after all.  

[Bill Lindsay]

The poster previously known as Michael Levan, now known as Lum Gim Fong asked "Why not?" swap out my Leo Roadini for a different bike made of 6/4/6 tubing.  He said I can have the fit and handling of a Leo Roadini, so I assume he means that he is recommending that I order a Custom Rivendell made with Leo Roadini geometry but with lighter, flexier tubing.  Assuming that is what he is recommending, then the list of Why Nots would include:

1. The Leo Roadini was $900, and a Rivendell Custom is $3500

2. A frame that weighs one pound less would make me plus my bike weigh 0.5% less.  I would be 0.5% faster on climbs, exactly the same speed on flats, and very slightly slower on descents.. In order to measure these things, I would have to do a detailed statistical analysis of Strava data.  In other words, I would not look for it ,and not looking for it would mean I would not find it.  

Alternatively, Michael Levan (Lum Gim Fong) might have meant "why not buy a Roadeo instead?".  The list of "why nots" for a Roadeo would include:

1. The Leo Roadini was $900, and a Roadeo is $2600.

2. A Roadeo is a road race bike.  I'm not a road racer, and I don't use my Leo Roadini on road racing type rides.  I don't do 'club races'.  I don't do local crits.  The extra stability and comfort of a Leo Roadini are not detriments (for me). 

3.  A frame that weighs one pound less would make me plus my bike weigh 0.5% less.  I would be 0.5% faster on climbs, exactly the same speed on flats, and very slightly slower on descents.. In order to measure these things, I'd have to do a detailed statistical analysis of Strava data.  In other words, I would not look for it ,and not looking for it would mean I would not find it.  

I get it that ML(LGF) for years dwelled on flexy tubing bikes, presumably from reading Jan Heine stuff.  Jan Heine knows that the weight of the bike doesn't matter.  Jan Heine prefers the feel of a flexier bike, but acknowledges that is an extremely nuanced, very subtle feeling.  The fact that ML(LGF) claims dramatic differences in 'feel' and large (~10%) differences in speed tells me that ML(LGF) wants his Roadeo to be a LOT faster, and so it is.  If you want your newest, lightest, raciest bike to be the best thing ever, you can easily convince yourself it is true.  Personally, I want to have a huge stable of bikes. I want them to all be awesome in their own way. I want them all to be fun to ride and I want to enjoy all of them, and so I do. Human beings can convince themselves of all sorts of things, including me. I'm anticipating the day when ML(LGF) finds a used STANDARD DIAMETER 7/4/7 bike and finds that is EVEN BETTER than his Roadeo.  

There are things about the Roadeo that are distinctly desirable, and if you want one, and can afford one, you should buy one and try to enjoy it. I have no doubt in my mind that if I buy a Roadeo down the road I will enjoy it. There is no chance whatsoever that I'll be 10% faster on it. There are things that are distinctly desirable about the Leo Roadini, and if you want one and can afford one, you should buy one and try to enjoy it.  If you are incapable of enjoying a Leo Roadini, that says something about you, not the bike.  Don't get me wrong.  There are objectively bad bikes out there.  The Leo Roadini is not one of them.  The Roadeo is a great bike also.  Different, but also great. I'm happy for ML(LGF) that he found a used Roadeo at a price he wanted to pay. I'm glad he enthusiastically likes it. It bums me out that he needs to insist that all his previous Rivendells 'fought him on hills'. I think his other bikes are also great and deserve to be enjoyed. If he can no longer enjoy them, I hope he moves them to people who can. 

Bill 'defender of all bikes' Lindsay

El Cerrito CA

[Lum Gim Fong]

Bill:
You totally misunderstood what I typed.
I wasn’t saying you would have the handling of a Rodini. I was not suggesting that you buy a custom. I was not even talking to you.

I was just throwing the idea out there that a person can also have those benchmarks mentioned while also having a 646 bike. Sorry for the confusion. I am not a good writer.

I have sold my Sam and two Bleriots. They were great bikes but when I decide not to commute because I am bummed out by the hills it’s time to look for something that rides better for me. Now I don’t fear the hills. Now recovery is quicker, enabling me to commute more days per week and have more fun. More efficient bike= less energy spent= quicker recovery from less exhaustion.

The rodeo does that for me. But that is what I’m looking for in a bike. Everyone here has something they’re looking for in a bike and the cool thing is that Rivendell makes so many models just about everybody can find something that works for them. I think every bike they make are equally good, just different.

PS- I’m keeping my 858 Ram!😀

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Awesome ride, Bill!  Nice to see Leo perform so well.

Toshi

--

[Jock Dewey]

Hey, Bill, et. al.:

Quoting BL: "I get it that ML (LGF) for years dwelled on flexy tubing bikes, presumably from reading Jan Heine stuff.  Jan Heine knows that the weight of the bike doesn't matter.  Jan Heine prefers the feel of a flexier bike, but acknowledges that is an extremely nuanced, very subtle feeling. "

We all love BQ for those tires and so many other things, too. But Mr. BQ once wrote a couple years ago when someone asked why his Mafac levers were missing the tiny thin rubber strips on top. The reply was 'to save weight.'

That one had me questioning the whole endeavor honestly. 

I just had Hiroshi built me another EBISU frame. A 'Road' this time. In our quite extensive communications he asked about tubing. I told him I weigh 135 wringing wet and that I could probably get by with really light. Frame is 58 cm (c-to-c). He asked about OS as opposed to 28.6 throughout. I told him he's the expert, you decide.

He said OK, 'I use 8-5-8 downtube then'. I said fine, my EBISU All Purpose is 8-5-8 and it's light, fast, smooth as can be. I'm not privy to his reasoning for that. I tend to keep my bicycles for the duration, but maybe has to do with what happens passing it along to someone big and beefy, I dunno.

I do know this, however. My lastest EBISU replaces the bike attached. I called it my MYSTERY bike, just to fool myself mostly. It was a SOMA Stanyan, a good looking bike with SS lugs, fork crown, Taiwan Tange Prestige but rather heavy I suppose. The very best bits, however. Wheels, bars & stem, crankset, seatpost, etc. And whaddya know, turned out to be maybe my favorite rider. Even though heavier and with much less provenance than my other bikes, it always felt fast fast fast to me and always made me want to push hard, the good kind of push. It just felt like it wanted to go. I admit, after spending 50 years on the bike, and most of them on really nice machines, I still don't really know what 'planing' is. And for sure don't really care either. At my age, I can't see those angels dancing on the pinhead anymore, and I've concluded that it doesn't matter anyway. 

Of course, to each his own. There is no single solution to any of these positions.

So I look forward to building the new one and will post some pix when I complete it. Must be EBISU Time on the good ol' BOBList!

BEST / Jock Dewey / Athens, GA

[Bill Lindsay]

Thanks for that, Jock. Like you, I have no idea what 'planing' is. I've admired your orange Ebisu several times. What color is your new one?

Bill

[jack loudon]

Bill: "Thanks for that, Jock. Like you, I have no idea what 'planing' is."

Thanks to both Jock and Bill for validating that I'm not totally deficient (or at least not alone) because I also don't understand planing, after well over 100,000 miles of riding. 

Bill, thanks for the great ride report.  You are an inspiration to many of us.

Jock, I used to own a beautiful orange Ebusu All-Purpose but I impulsively gave it to my then-son-in-law as a wedding present.  The marriage lasted about a year and I haven't seen the bike since.  I hope he or somebody is enjoying it.  Ebisu's have an understated elegance I haven't seen in many bikes.

Jack

Seattle

[Ash]

Thanks for the wonderful ride report Bill! 

I Googled and got the Del Puerto 200k map.   Want to attempt it sometime.  Longest I've done is 70 miles (on Appaloosa).  That took 8 hrs!  

This 200k might be a 14-15hrs deal for me.  Probably a good one for the summer, so there's enough daylight hours.  Maybe I'll get a Roadini by then.

[John Hawrylak]

Bill 

Great ride report and sounds like a very fulfilling ride. Your Leo really performed 

The 1 lb weight savings (Leo vs Roadeo) translates into a 1/12 mph increase or using your measured 125.5M & 7H45M time, the 1/12mph increase is 16.4 mph avg and a 7H43M time.  A time savings of 2M!! 

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Philip Williamson]

Bill: Thanks for the inspiring and engaging write-up. The details important to a bike ride made me think, “oh, I can do all those things.” “I can buy Coke and OJ and cut them with water. I can bike up a hill for 20 miles.”

John: Wow. A pound on the bike only costs 2 minutes over 8 hours of riding? Super interesting quantification that could help me choose tradeoffs on the bike...or just accept the ones I’ve already made, and not worry about them.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[Tony DeFilippo]

Bill, love your ride reports. Epic prose for an epic experience. I identify with finding immense pleasure in carefully picking a bike, building it up for a purpose (or many purposes) and then having it perform as well as you'd have hoped... I think that the full circle of deciding-finding-customizing-using is one of the real draws of BOBish/Rivish culture.

Tony

[EasyRider]

Nicely done Bill. With writing like this, pictures are unnecessary; they're in my head.

Reading your report made me want to take my bronze Rosco Road on a long ride. Do you think you'd notice much difference between your Roadini and your blue Rosco Road on a ride like this, if both bikes were set up similarly? My "Roadini" is a '94 RB-T with standard diameter tubes and 32mm tires. It's less versatile than my Rosco but appealing in its own ways for longer rides.

Pete

Arlington, VA

[Bill Lindsay]

Pete asked if I could do similarly well on my Blue R05C0 8U883 road.  I'm certain that I could.  I've put over 1000 miles on my blue Rosco and I have no doubts that I could throw down a respectable 200k on it and have a whale of a time doing it. 

I just posted on the "Albastache" thread that I'm planning to put an Albastache on my Leo Roadini and I am considering using it in that configuration for the next 200k, in December.  That may be a hoot.  

Bill

[Ash]

Hey Bill,

Do you mind sharing your Roadini build details?

I think you have posted it in some other thread, but I haven't been able to find it.

Thx

[Bill Lindsay]

Ash asked for my build details. 

In May I built it up, and it got most of its build hand-me-down style from a Black Mountain Road.  Here is a link to the thread I initiated when it was new.  There's a pretty good build-list description in that thread dated May 24:

LEO thread

Since that time, some changes have happened.  The Rene Herse crankset and Ti H2O cages got pulled for a new Frenchie rando-build that is forthcoming. Leo has been running a White Industries VBC crankset for a couple months.  Last night I pulled the White Industries crankset off, and installed a Ritchey Logic 94bcd crankset in its place.  I also swapped the wheelset out.  The wide-rimmed HED wheelset that was on there will be going to a different bike that will run 35-38mm tires.  I've put a skinny-rimmed Ritchey wheelset onto Leo because I'm running 30mm tires, and may go down to 28mm tires with fenders.  Albastaches are coming, and I'm also thinking about 'downgrading' to 9-speed.  It's in flux! 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Brenton Eastman]

Got a pic of your setup? I'm building a roadini at the moment and love seeing others' builds. Would love to see it in it's brevet mode if it has multiple modes.

[Bill Lindsay]

I posted a photo of the drop bar build that I had on that bike in 2018.  This thread links to that thread, and in that thread I posted a photo.  You should be able to find it. It doesn't look like I made a Flickr album for that build so the detailed build photos are buried. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Chris Fly]

Bill,

Good Stuff! I had pretty much written a Leo off as I really couldn't find much feedback on it to be honest.. I got a few replies to my question, but not a lot.. your report has it back on my radar! 

Having been a big supporter of the Black Mountain Cycles brand and having had a V1 Road and MC, I'd be curious how you would compare the BMC Road and your Leo (in drop bar mode)? 

Thanks,

Chris 

[Chris Fly]

edit to my above reply- just read through Bill's post when he initially built up Leo.. good stuff and good comparisons.. 

Thanks! 

[Bill Lindsay]

fourflys wanted feedback on maybe buying a Leo.  

My general impression of your search for info is that you want it to be a racing bike that takes wide tires.  That's not what the Leo Roadini is, in my opinion.  The Leo Roadini is an evolved road bike.  It seemed to me you want a traditional or mainstream road bike, just one that takes wide tires and maybe says Rivendell on it.  In other words, you want a Roadeo, which is a lot more of a traditional or mainstream road racing bike that takes wide-ish tires.  

A big part of my "presence" on this board is to counterpoint the contrarians.  

[Bill Lindsay]

"A big part of my "presence" on this board is to counterpoint the contrarians."

...and what I mean by that is that there are a number of people who badmouth the Leo because they bought it, thinking it was a racing bike, wanted it to be a racing bike, and then got mad that it isn't a racing bike.  It's totally fine to not like a bike, but it's a little lame to say that a row boat is crap because it isn't a motor boat.  

Anyway, some of the voices badmouthing the Leo for not being a race bike went so far as to claim that the Leo couldn't be ridden fast.  Those threads that you read were my reports that even though the Leo is not a racing bike, it still can be ridden fast.  That period, 2017 - 2019 was when I was in my best racing shape, because I was coaching a high school racing team.  That anecdote comes up a lot.  "It doesn't matter which bike that pro rides, because at that level it's the rider".  Several "voices" on these boards sort of anticipate that by claiming "I need ultralight tubing because I'm so weak and slow, I need all the help I can get", etc.  In those threads you read, I was trying to make clear that you can get a lot out of a Leo Roadini if you want to.  

I think the best summary was that I felt a little weird in full-kit on my Leo.  I felt a little weird NOT being in full kit on my Black Mountain.  That's what I mean by "traditional racing bike" vs "evolved road bike". 

Bill Lindsay

[Chris Fly]

fair enough, I can see why you got that from what I had put in my initial inquiry.. 

I'm certainly NOT looking for a race bike, I already have a couple of those kind of bikes, if that is what I'm looking for.. what I don't want is a bike that feels "heavy" or "sluggish" when being ridden.. I think we all know what that means.. of course, much of that can often be attributed to heavy wheels/tires, but a 35# bike HAS to feel heavier than 21# bike to ride, either accelerating from a stop or on a 5% extended climb.. (using these weight numbers just to illustrate a point)

But back to my search for info- yes I like Rivs, every since around 2008.. yes, I want a bike that will take a larger tire.. and yes, I would like the bike to not feel like a pig when I ride it. I generally like to have my bars at or even a bit above my saddle, so a Riv certainly ticks that box normally. 

Appreciate it! 

Chris 

[Chris Fly]

makes sense! and I totally get what you mean.. while I certainly wear "kit" when riding.. my days of wearing stuff that has logos all over it are mostly gone.. I do have a couple of classic Salsa jerseys I still like to wear.. and i also have some more MTBish stuff for those days when I want to be a bit more "under the radar".. :) 

thanks Bill! 

[Bill Lindsay]

"what I don't want is a bike that feels "heavy" or "sluggish" when being ridden.. I think we all know what that means"

I think this is where I'm the outlier because I don't know what that means.  Or, to be more specific, what I think that means is something different from what other people mean.  The way I always express it is that all my bikes go faster when I pedal harder.  I always pedal as hard as I want to go and the bike goes as fast as it does.  I do know what it means to ride a crappy bike, but there are crappy 20 pound bikes and great 35 pound bikes.  I don't think there is anything objectively connecting bike weight to sluggishness, but A LOT of people do, and it seems you may be one of those normal people.  I'm the abnormal one.  Maybe what "normal" people mean is that they insist on riding up HILL X at precisely 12 MPH, and a "sluggish" bike requires you to pedal harder to get to objectively 12MPH?  Maybe "normal" people are all on club-rides and just want to keep up with the speedy group?  I am neither of those people.  

Being really specific about it, on these group boards, there was a poster who claimed he can tell how full his water bottles are just by how fast his bike goes up a hill.  I cannot tell how full my water bottles are by riding my bike up a hill.  Two full water bottles is four pounds.  I would say the majority of cyclists claim there's a massive difference between a 17 pound bike and a 21 pound bike.  I agree there's a difference, but I don't think it's massive.  That;s what makes me a weirdo.  There are posters here who may refer to a 24 pound road bike as "a tank".  I'm not one of them.  I hate picking up my 30+ pound bikes, but I don't hate riding them.  I'm sure my sub 20 pound bikes go a hair faster, but I still pedal in the gear that I feel like pedaling in.  In no circumstances am I under some deadline where I have to average 18.75MPH or I get fired.  

One other way normal people justify their "need" for a light bike is using language like "it's just more fun to throw the bike around".  Even Jan Heine uses language like this.  I think I know what "throwing the bike around" is, and I agree that if doing that was something I did a lot, I guess I'd develop more of a taste for very very light bikes, but the fact is that I don't "throw the bike around" all that much.  I love doing weight weenie builds, but the evaluation of the lightness happens on the scale, not on the road.  It's fun to shave a pound of unnecessary weight off a build, full stop.  I can't feel the difference.  Others claim they can, and I can't prove them wrong.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Chris Fly]

Bill,

Thank for the concise, informative replies! I really mean that.. and do get what you mean, for the most part.. I have my Dad's AHH I inherited that, I think, comes in around 25# (typical 2010ish RIV build) and it certainly doesn't ride heavy.. 

I can get totally wrapped around the axle on the perception of weight for sure.. :) Appreciate the grounding truth! 

Chris 

[Max S]

Regarding the weight of Leo... there was a thread earlier on the list discussing the Crust Malocchio, where Bill wrote:

• "...the reported weight of the Malocchio is very low.  They claim frame and fork combined are under 6 pounds.  Even with a headset it may still be a hair under 6 pounds.  My Rivendell Legolas weighed 6.30 pounds frame+fork+headset, and that's about as light a frame as Rivendell can make.  My Roadini weighed 7.75 pounds for frame + fork + headset."

8 lbs is quite a lot, IMO, even for a steel bike. That doesn't imply it's a bad ride, or worse than a lighter frame might be. Neither does this read on whether a given rider can tell the difference while riding...

Now, I'm aware of the "blind" tests done with Mondonico frames having different tube specs, etc., and the "surprising" results of people preferring the thicker wall, "downspec" tubing. Like Bill, I've got enough bikes in my collection, and do enough tinkering with them, to do my own A/B/C comparisons. In contrast to Bill, I believe I can feel a difference between a light and a heavy bike, a given bike free of bags and with bags, and a given bike with baggage located in different spots (e.g., on top of front rack vs. low-riders vs. saddle, etc.), different tires and wheels, different inner tubes, and so on. 

I think that weight – and in particular, weight distribution on a bike – can make a huge difference in how the bike feels when pedaling seated, out of saddle, downhill or uphill, with and without hands on bars, etc. Moving a load from the front to the rear can easily cause a bike to shimmy even pedaling on flat ground – I have video to prove it. And whether my average speed changes or not for a given effort, I can still have personal preferences. It's just like people have preferences for low- vs. mid- vs. high trail steering, based on what they're used to, the terrain, etc.

Speaking of bike geometry, I think one could tell differences between frames that are geometry-driven, more than weight, but the two aspects have some interplay between them. Frame flex, for example, is another attribute that depends on tubing diameter and wall thickness, but also quite a bit on frame design. The long and relatively skinny chainstays on the Roadini are going to flex a lot more than the thin-walled, short, light, but super-beefy chainstays on the Pegoretti Round, for example. How much flex will feel good to you depends on your weight, riding style and surface, etc. Plenty of riders and custom frame builders have experience with having a tuned / optimized flex characteristic, and one that may even change for a given person with time.

Speaking of custom, it's quite possible to get custom steel frameset (frame + fork) to weigh closer to 5 lbs, and then build it up into a ~16 lb bike with ~32-35mm tires (some titanium and carbon parts may need to be used). Check out the steel bikes made by Rob English – plenty of examples in that range! How stiff that frame will be, and how ponderously it'll ride will depend on how the frame is laid out. One 16 lb bike may well end up riding more sluggishly than a 23 lb Roadini.

So, I think it's great to ask for and share qualitative opinions. I'd also add that it's helpful to specify what wheels, tires, and other attributes the bike had, and maybe include pictures of the set-up, too, as that could give a better idea of where the weight is distributed, which impacts how the bike feels, rider weight, etc. It's no different from the talk of racquets on tennis forums – a given stick in the hands of a star college varsity player will feel very different than in the hands of a weekend 3.5 league doubles player. That info, along with playing / stroke style, is typically specified in reviews to help others make a decision.

- Max "I wouldn't want a head tube shallower than my QB, and would not object to a slightly lower bottom bracket, and I sure can tell the lower weight with carbon wheels and titanium fixin's" in A2