Ron's Ortho vs. Nitto Albatross

[David Pulsipher]

Hi there,

I've been using the Nitto Albatross now for over 13 years - and love it immensely. But recently I've been intrigued by the idea of going wider, much wider. Was wondering if any one had made a similar transition and would mind sharing their thoughts, reflections.

Thanks hive mind!

 

[Eric Marth]

Hi David — I've run Albatross, Billie and Ortho bars on different bikes and have enjoyed them all. I think that the Billies are the sweet spot, more sweep back and wider than the Albatross and not out there in mutant territory like the Orthos. 

All three bars have a similar shape but each has more sweep back than the next and they get wider along the scale as well. I do like having more sweep back to accommodate levers, thumb-mounted shifters and to have a nice long grip position in the hooks which I find good for spirited riding and climbing out of the saddle. 

I don't think I'll run Albatross bars again, despite their beauty and the classic shape. Just not enough room for levers, thumb shifters and the hooks grip position for me. I'd consider it with bar end shifters but don't see myself running swept back bars and bar-ends together anytime soon. The image below, from Rivendell Catalog No. 20, is how I fell in love with the Albatross bar. 

I don't have any pictures handy but I ran mine just like this on my Surly LHT. 

I had the Billie bars on my Appaloosa for a while before I swapped to the Ortho bars. Great hooks position, nice shape, plenty of sweep back. 

The Ortho bars are very flexy and the long sweep back requires a 12cm or 13cm stem to get them far enough away from you. This will depend on how big your frames are. They're 69cm wide, mine measure 29" outside to outside. I sometimes struggle to fit the bars through my shed door but it's only a 2-8 (32") door. I think on a smaller frame they might teeter on true absurdity. I've found mine to be overall pretty comfortable though not life-changing. I won't rant or rave about them. I think I'd be just as happy with the Billie bars. The Ortho is based on a set of Bosco bars that Ron bent and flattened out, you can sort of see it in their overall shape. Here's a picture of the bike with the Ortho bars. 

Here's a quick overlay with my Billie bars strapped to my Ortho bars for comparison. 

The last round of Orthos were out of stock for over a year and then quickly sold out. I haven't heard any rumors about how soon Crust will have another shipment in. If they're unavailable I think the Billies would be worthwhile. 

Best of luck and let us know what you do! 

Eric

[DavidP]

We have two bikes with Albatross bars, a 65cm Tosco on my Platypus, and recently picked up an Ortho bar for another bike. I like the Albatross bars on roadish bikes and wider bars like the Orthos and Toscos on bikes with wider tires that see more dirt. 

The 69cm Orthos are significantly wider than the 55cm Albatross throughout the grip range and come back further (they don't extend as far forward as the Albatross).

The Orthos are actually very similar to the 65cm Toscos - just a touch wider and with a bit more rise. There'd be nothing in swap between them except the stem (26.0 vs 31.8) and some weight.

Another (inexpensive) bar that is very close to the Ortho (and Tosco) is the Wald 896. I mocked up my build using these and was very happy with them, though the price difference is apparent in the finish and weight.

What bike would they be going on? What size tires and how is it used?

-Dave

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:51:07 PM UTC-4 David Pulsipher wrote:

[Eric Marth]

David: Good point on the 65cm Toscos, forgot about those! 

Other monster swept back bars: the Albacore bar from Hope has on offer, the Golden Pliers x Sim Works x Nitto Ramble Bar and Doom Bars has some stock models but I've heard they do custom sizes, shapes and bends. 

[David Pulsipher]

Man Eric - what an epistle! Truly you have given me some deep things to ponder.

Right now I was thinking of putting them on my Surly Long Haul Trucker - it's a 62cm. I'm 6'4 (and full of muscles).

https://www.instagram.com/p/Ch7Y77ruZob/?img_index=1

I ride 45 schwalbe marathons, but am up-sizing to 47's shortly.

I use it for a commuter and touring set up - and ride about about 32 miles daily on my commute. Have been intrigued by the wider set up.

[DavidP]

Great looking LHT - wider bars will fit right in on that rig. You may want to consider a longer stem to avoid knee contact, also Orthos are not bar end shifter compatible so you'd need to switch the shifters to thumb mounts or something.

-Dave

[Paul M]

Having used the Albatross and Choco-moose handlebars for years and enjoying them, I recently put the Sycip Singles bar on my Kona Dr. Dew. I really like the extra width (650mm) and sweep (45 degree) of this bar. It has 200mm of straight grip area, unlike the Ortho and Tosco that don't have enough grip length before the bend for spreading out the brake and shifter controls. I would ride gravel but not mtb with these bars. Available on Soma Fabrication's web site.

[David Pulsipher]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. Eric - when I put the Albatross and Billie on top of each other on Whatbars, they look almost identical in width, just with a little more grip area which in turn makes them slightly wider. I'm actually ok on grip area, just looking for more width in general. I hear you on the bar-ends - I'm currently using the rivendell bar ends and would likely convert them to thumbies. Might have to scour the interweb to see if anyone is selling them, bummer they are sold out.

While I have you, when do we get your next video? ; )

[DavidP]

David - it looks like your bar ends are Silver2s? If so Riv has Silver shifter thumb mounts in stock - you could just move the shifters from the bar end pods to the thumb mounts.

[Mackenzy Albright]

I've found my sweet spot of swept back bars with the 54cm width range. I really like the fit of albatross, loscos, and chocomoose. I found toscos (and kind of bosco) to be too wide and somewhat bothersome to my shoulder and neck issues.  

I really like how tosco and ortho looks, but am personally not in the least tempted. 

[Brian Turner]

I have both Tosco and Orthos, and they are both very very similar bars. Orthos have gentler curves… and of course the clamp diameter… but that’s about the only difference. Aside from stem use, you’re not going to see much difference in those two.

On Aug 25, 2023, at 3:53 PM, 'Sean, PNW' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

https://whatbars.com/

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 12:37:56 PM UTC-7 DavidP wrote:

We have two bikes with Albatross bars, a 65cm Tosco on my Platypus, and recently picked up an Ortho bar for another bike. I like the Albatross bars on roadish bikes and wider bars like the Orthos and Toscos on bikes with wider tires that see more dirt. 

The 69cm Orthos are significantly wider than the 55cm Albatross throughout the grip range and come back further (they don't extend as far forward as the Albatross).

The Orthos are actually very similar to the 65cm Toscos - just a touch wider and with a bit more rise. There'd be nothing in swap between them except the stem (26.0 vs 31.8) and some weight.

Another (inexpensive) bar that is very close to the Ortho (and Tosco) is the Wald 896. I mocked up my build using these and was very happy with them, though the price difference is apparent in the finish and weight.

What bike would they be going on? What size tires and how is it used?

-Dave

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:51:07 PM UTC-4 David Pulsipher wrote:

Hi there,

I've been using the Nitto Albatross now for over 13 years - and love it immensely. But recently I've been intrigued by the idea of going wider, much wider. Was wondering if any one had made a similar transition and would mind sharing their thoughts, reflections.

Thanks hive mind!

 

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[David Pulsipher]

That's a great recommendation re: Toscos - and with availability. Thank you!

[David Pulsipher]

Anyone have experience with the Velo Orange Granola Bar? Looks really close to the family.

https://velo-orange.com/products/granola-bar?_pos=1&_sid=492f7836c&_ss=r

[Michael Connors]

Blue Lug carries the Nitto Kite, which is essentially an albatross with only 40 degree sweep. Width is 630 and rise is about 1 inch. 

[Eric Marth]

Hi David — You've got a big old LHT and you're quite tall so I'd say the wide bars will do you well. The Trucker looks like a great ride! 

After first suggesting Billie bars I'd like to make and amendment and change to the Toscos, I'd say snag some from Riv and if you don't like them you can sell them here quick and easy, I would think. As to the What Bars overlay, yeah, the Billie and Albatross bars are quite similar. 

 

There might be a chance some Ortho bars pop up here or on the Crust classifieds sometime soon, I'm sure a fair number of people bought them without a specific use in mind. But it'll be a seller's market with others who missed out ready to pounce. 

@DavidP makes a good point about the Ortho bars — they are not bar-end compatible. You wouldn't want bar ends on 'em anyway, too much opportunity for conflict. Dave makes a good point about your existing shifters being compatible with the Riv shifter mounts. Soma and VO both sell some Silver-compatible mounts as well but they are not quite as good as the ones from Riv, they don't have as many options for lever positioning. I think the Riv ones have 16 positions, the others have less. 

My favorite thumb shifters are the Suntour Power Thumb shifters. Frustratingly expensive on eBay most of the time but some of the time they pop up at a reasonable price. Real nice when reverse mounted. 

I don't have any videos or builds in the queue but thanks for asking! 

[Eliot Balogh]

I have some new silver Ortho bars that I don’t really have a use for. DM me if you want them. Also have some other goodies (XTR m960 9 speed shifters with aluminum triggers, REAL design brake levers, Ritchey Force 130mm stem etc) 

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[Mike Packard]

One thing about Albatross bars is the bend extends forward enough to have a hand position ahead of the stem clamp. This is something I miss on the other sweepy bars.

Anyway I am having fun experimenting with the Rons bars. Based on the metric of how much of a Big Dumb Smile I have on my face while riding, the super wide bars are great. Not sure if it's just a novelty and will wear off eventually. It is kind of silly in a good way how big they are. I did have to buy a new stem (11mm) and it could even be longer.

Mike in Austin

[Johnny Alien]

My problem with a sweptback extending forward before coming back is that, yes, it offers a hand position in front of the stem similar to drops but the stems are so long to accommodate the sweepback that the forward position is way to far out to be really useful.

[Kirke Campbell]

I've been riding Billie bars on my 90s Novara mtb for about two years and absolutely love them for all the reasons Eric mentioned. 

I have two critiques: I wish they had a little bit more rise and they just aren't quite as aesthetically appealing as Albatross bars, which just seem to have a smoother overall curvature and shape. I'd love it if someone made a handlebar that was an Albatross with essentially the same width and extended sweep back of the Billie bars. 

[Glen]

I'm a Billie Bar convert thanks to a kind list member and prefer them for the extra hand position in front of the brake levers. Yes they could look nicer with some extra rise, I'd prefer to look at a swooped up bar than a tall stem but that doesn't impact my ride only my gaze when looking at my bike instead of riding it. 

Regarding the usability of the front hand position. I find myself there when I need one of two things, getting out of the wind while fighting a head wind or giving myself a good long stretch while still seated. With a 13cm stem and Billies I can get a really good stretch without getting off the bike. 

FWIW my Billies are on a 64cm Atlantis

[exliontamer]

The Albatross is my favorite upright bar. I'm a fairly tall guy with fairly big hands and it really only has 1 1/2 hand positions for me but I love the feel of it. It's stiff enough for trails, upright enough to commute on, etc. They live on my older Toyo Atlantis. I do think the newer revisions like the Billie work a lot better for newer Rivs with longer top tubes. The Billie in particular is incredible. It would just have too much sweepback for me on the Atlantis without using a comically long stem and I would lose that forward bend position without having to lean a lot.

As to Ortho bars I don't know how well they work for smaller statured riders. I just put a pair on my Cheviot and they feel good out of the gate but for someone who doesn't have broad shoulders they could be overkill. 

[J]

I've always had problems with swept back bars, tried many over the years from Riv, Velo O, Soma and the Albatross bar lasted the longest (6 months?) on any bike but they were never really comfortable either. Everything always felt too narrow for my shoulder width and gave me neck pain. I had an opportunity to try the Tumbleweed Persuader bars on my hardtail, and even though the back sweep threw the fit off it still got my gears turning about wider swoopy bars. I widened some Albatross bars in a vice and really felt like I was getting somewhere but started having saddle comfort issues from riding upright again, an issue I've always had. Last year I got to try Ron's Ortho bars on his Atlantis and they felt ridiculous in the moment, but a day later I was still thinking about them. They'd been sold out for so long I gave up and sourced some Magic Components Mothbars, and they've been great! They turned an old aluminum mtb I wasn't riding into a bike I'd happily take for a casual ride under 30 miles. 

[Josh Brown]

I've been running Albas on my Bike Friday with tektro inverse levers and suntour stem shifters and the hand positions are endless. https://photos.app.goo.gl/WKCgLGpuq4Pxvv7K8

JB NYC 

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[Davey Two Shoes]

I rode albatross on a couple different bikes over the years and I never really got on with them. I used the Terminal bar for a bit and I really liked that. 

Then the orthos came in stock and I bought them without thought of what I'd actually do with them.

I've been running them on my Karate Monkey which is used as my toddler hauler and mountain bike. I've got a couple days out on the single track I normally ride and I've never had more fun. The width and flex of these bars add a suppleness that has always been missing from the KM despite the wheel and tire set up I would use. Combined with a B17 flyer I am so pleased. 

I do need to up my frame size as the Medium is really just barely big enough for me with a more traditional mtb set up. I like the bars enough to change the frame.

If you're going to use the bike for more chonky gravel and some single track I think this is where the argument for an Ortho over other options really gains traction.

Thinking about building up a geared Surly LowSide for the Orthos.

[J S]

I switched to Choco bars in 2020 from Albatross bars. I have never regretted the switch, seems like I have extra hand room and added comfort. 

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 1:51:07 PM UTC-4 David Pulsipher wrote:

[Chris K]

J, question about your mothbars - do you find yourself ever using other hand positions?

Intrigued by this bar but it looks like holding on anywhere but the ends would be awkward with such a wide bar.

[Richard Rose]

I am late to this party & I may not be much help but… I’ve been running Bosco bars on my two bikes - a Clem & a Gus. They are pretty much perfect. Except that the Gus begs to be ridden harder on singletrack than I was comfortable with. After much deliberation I took a flyer & installed a “Albacore” handlebar from Hope Cyclery. It’s wide @ 785. It has a forward sweep before coming back & a very comfortable & confidence inspiring 50-60 degrees. It necessitated ditching my 90mm stem for a 35mm one. These changes transformed the Gus. The part of this that might apply to your situation; wide bars feel great on the trails, experimentation can be fun & rewarding.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 4, 2023, at 1:35 PM, Chris K <cmka...@gmail.com> wrote:

J, question about your mothbars - do you find yourself ever using other hand positions?

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[Brian Turner]

If you were to overlay Toscos (the 650mm version) over top of some Orthos like that, you would find them nearly the same in just about every way... for anyone pining for some unobtainable Ortho bars.

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[Chris Halasz]

Thanks to all for the great input on different bars and their applications. 

When I first tried Albatross bars on my Bleriot, I could not get comfortable with them. Fifteen years later the Albatross bars are my favorite. I use them on a 58cm LHT. 

I recently experienced shoulder pain when I tried (much) wider upright bars. I swam long distances for decades and am now careful with my worn shoulders. Somewhere I read that it's important to keep the arms 'in the box' (i.e. within the width of the box established by the shoulders) during exercise. It seems to work very well with this scrawny six-foot-tall person. I'm fairly upright on the LHT, with the bars about 2.5" above the B68 saddle. 

I'm curious to try some of the narrower Toscos sometime. The way the bars can be tilted so that the grips tilt toward the downtube is intriguing. No rush, but someday. 

[J]

To: Chris K (I have no idea how to quote your question and reply)

  I tend to move around a lot on bars and it's no different with the Mothbars, I definitely see them as 3 position bars. I spend quite a lot of time up in the bends in front of the shifters, the width is about identical to my favorite drop bar hood position.

[Paul M]

I've been riding with the Choco-Moose handlebar for years and the "narrow 55cm" width has been fine for on road and off. Even though in the back of my mind, the general cycling community has been pushing wider handlebars. This moose style handlebar has a fixed rise, reach, width and downward tilt of the bars which is perfect for me. It does need a longish top tube to work best.

[Minh]

i"m down to a single big bike and only ride albatross but have been very tempted by the billie.   this discussion always reminds me of this t-shirt from blue lug. 

https://global.bluelug.com/blue-lug-nitto-handlebar-t-shirt-white.html

[Sarah Carlson]

Minh, I love both. I have albatross on my more compact bike, but I sized up on my Platypus and got Billie's and it feels so spacious. People say there are more hand position options, but I realized I never change positions, but I do like to put stuff all over my handlebars so there is more space for that.

[James M]

Another Choco-moose lover here.  I had a set of Ortho bars from the first run that I sold off.  I just couldn't keep them from slipping in the stem on trails - so much leverage!  Switching over to a moose-style bar has been perfect for me - they ain't going anywhere!

James