Clem Smith Rear Drop Outs

[Philip Barrett]

My Clem was delivered today & it looks like UPS crushed the box so badly the rear triangle is bent. Does anyone have a measurement of their rear dropouts internal width?

Good news is I bought the insurance but it's sad to see a Riv destroyed like this.

[Joe Bernard]

135mm.

[Philip Barrett]

Well this is probably not good then eh?

[Joe Bernard]

Not great! There should have been a dropout block in there so it wouldn't crush even if UPS screwed up. I'd do whatever legalities you need with them and take it to a framebuilder to reset the triangle. It's not broken, just a little bendy at the moment. 

[Philip Barrett]

Chain stay has a pretty decent & visible bend, this one's gone the journey I'm afraid?

[Joe Bernard]

Ouch. Yeah, if you can get your money back and put that baby back on a truck I think that's the plan. Too much drama. 

[RichS]

Phillip,

What a disappointment to discover the damage when you opened the box. Did Rivendell ship your Clem? I've purchased a few frames from them and the dropouts (and fork ends) were always well secured. 

Good luck and please let us know how this is resolved. 

Best,

Rich in ATL

[Philip Barrett]

It was through Bikeflights.com, I've used them before & they were excellent so here's hoping they come through. I doubt any frame however well packed would have survived whatever it was they dropped on top off this, the sides of the Secialized shipping box were actually burst! A carbon frame would have just snapped.

[Philip Barrett]

Update; Bikeflights has settled the claim & the frame was donated to a kid's bike charity. Currently up for sale on ebay with the damage shown & repair noted, might be a deal for someone who is OK with the condition;

https://www.ebay.com/itm/203329558177?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11021.m43.l3160&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=4ac514ba1adb42079cd095c39e2f34f2&bu=44128052550&ut=RU&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20210401070233&segname=11021&sojTags=ch%3Dch%2Cbu%3Dbu%2Cut%3Dut%2Cosub%3Dosub%2Ccrd%3Dcrd%2Csegname%3Dsegname%2Cchnl%3Dmkcid

[Justin Kennedy (Brooklyn, NY)]

I was just looking at that posting! I'm considering upgrading my Xtracylce using this frame. Does anyone know if I can fit a 26" wheel up front, maybe using a Paul Motolite or something with lots of reach? I know the 52 is made for 650b but my current wheelset is 26" Velocity Cliffhanger and I'd rather not have to change it up. 

[Philip Barrett]

If it helps, the 650b wheels that came off this measure as;

Axle C to inner edge of of rim = 290mm

Axle C to outer edge of rim = 305mm

To my calculations you'll need to lose (not gain) 25mm of reach. Centerpull cantilevers might get you there?

Then again, for the price of a pair of Paul's you could buy a nice set of 650b wheel & call it done?

[Justin Kennedy]

Hmm you're right, the Motolites are built to go the other way -- fitting 650b or 700c to a bike meant for 26". I currently have a cheap Shimano V-brake on the front. Will measure and see if there's any room for losing reach. I like your canti suggestion too. I may email Riv and see what their thoughts are. 

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[Philip Barrett]

Ask any Clem owner to measure from the center of the rear axle to the center of the brake caliper bolt, that's the magic number you need.

[Justin Kennedy (Brooklyn, NY)]

Well, since it's going to have an Xtracycle extension on the rear, that rear axle measurement doesn't matter much. i just need to know whether a 26" wheel would fit up front. So if anyone with a 52 Clem L could measure the distance from the center of your front axle to the canti/V-brake posts, that would be greatly appreciated. 

[Justin Kennedy (Brooklyn, NY)]

So I bought the frame! According to James at Rivendell, the distance b/t the center of the front axle and the center of the canti posts on a Clem L 52 is 263mm. I measured the distance from my center front axel to the rim and it's ~285mm. That's a difference of ~22mm or 2.2cm. So theoretically I think the 26" wheel should work. Unless I'm missing something??? Anyway, worst case scenario I have to buy a new 650b wheel for the front.  

[Joe Bernard]

Mechanically it might work, real world you're going to have a VERY low bottom bracket. I say mullet it. 

[Justin Kennedy]

650 up front and 26 in the rear?

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[Joe Bernard]

Yep. The mountain bikers do a thing now - which I don't really understand - with 27.5/650B in the rear and 29 front, they call it mullet. Ideally you should have 650B rear, too, but your Xtra cycle is 26" sooooo..mullet it!

[Peter Adler]

The only thing that's new about the "mullet" (?) is the diameter of the rear wheel. In the late '00s, when 29ers were first becoming a thing, there was a fad of putting longer forks on hardtail MBs and installing 29" wheels, for better clearance over roots, ruts and whatnot. As the rear triangles were using canti/V-brake studs, it wasn't practical to put larger wheels in the rear; so they left 26" wheels in back, and called the resulting builds "69ers". Har har har.

I know what you're about to say: why didn't they just spring for the high-zoot Paul Motolites, and run 29" rear wheels that way? Here's the problems with that: First, the brake bridges are often not high enough on older 26" MBs to clear 700C wheels. A notable exception to this are Kona and VooDoo frames designed by Joe Murray, which tend to place the brake bridge particularly high. I tried installing 700c wheels on a 1998 VooDoo Hoodoo, and the wheel fit fine. I set it up with Paul MotoDVs, which have even longer pad travel than the lighter-weight Motolites (instead of having cuts along the V-arms, which set an upper limit on the points where the brake shoes can be securely attached, the V-arms on the MotoDVs are cylinders all the way to the noodle). But once I got the brake shoes up to the point that it hit the 700C sidewalls, you lost so much mechanical advantage that it wasn't worth the trouble. I ended up solving the problem with a 700C CX fork and a Mavic Caliper Adjuster, a sort of caliper reinforcer which bolts onto the seatstay pivots and has substitute pivots high enough to mount brakes for 700C wheels. Worked a treat, even if they didn't compensate for the fact that the frame was too small for me:

Once you get the brake shoes into their sweet spot, Paul's V-brakes are the most ferociously powerful rim brakes ever made. On my first ride with the caliper adjuster in place, I did a panic stop behind a school bus which stopped suddenly in front of me, and immediately laid it down. Life lesson learned! But when you move the shoes out of that intended range, the brakes lose awesomeness pretty quickly. I think the "you can put 700c wheels on your oldie mountain frame, maybe kinda" is more theoretical than practical. It wouldn't work at all, if the brakes were less monstrous than they are.

At the point where 29ers were more established (more wide rims, more mountainish 700C tires), the reverse 69er idea was also a momentary fad - a 29" rear wheel, with a 26" fork and wheel, naturally called "96ers". This was basically an offroad version of a series of road bikes that Terry used to sell, intended for smaller women: A 700C rear wheel with a 650A front. The mountain versions didn't stick around long either.

Peter Adler

who should probably take advantage of his sequestration to move all that VooDoo stuff to the bigger frame he's now had for about five years in

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Nerl L.]

Hi Justin,

I'm on a Clem 52 H, so if the fork is different from the L, then this may not help.   Center to center, front axle to brake post is 10-1/2".

By the way, one year plus later, I'm still happily on the bars, stem and saddle I got from you!

Best,

Noah

[Justin Kennedy (Brooklyn, NY)]

UPDATE. Turns out a 26" wheel on a 52 Clem L does not work with a regular V-brake or canti brake. There may be a way for it to work with some other set up but I'm going with the mullet set up - 650b up front and a 26" on the Xtracycle Free Radical extension. Just waiting on the new wheel to arrive.

[Dave]

How'd this end up for you Justin? Tempted to try a free radical on the back of a 650b proto-bleriot....would either be running the 650b with the expense of the paul motolite brakes (I think that would work), or would be buying a 26" wheel and running a mismatched 650b up front 26" in back. Curious to hear your feedback!

[Justin Kennedy]

I finally got it built up last week and it's riding great! The 26" front wheel did not work on the 52cm Clem fork. So I got a 650b up front and kept the 26" rear. It handles really well and rides like a dream. Flexy in all the right ways and places. 

Below is a pic and here's a video of my wife and daughter riding it. Let me know if you have any questions about the build etc. 

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[Philip Barrett]

Wow! I guess a straightened rear triangle is probably irrelevant at this point? Seriously cool build, how many chains did it take to reach the cassette?

[Justin Kennedy (Brooklyn, NY)]

Yep, the Xtracycle conversion fit perfectly into the drop outs, so whatever previous spacing issues there were had been resolved. I *think* the chain length is ballpark ~175 links but it could be more. I didn't count the exact number b/t the two 116 link chains I used but about 1.5 chains.