Personal Experiences Request.

[Hugh Smitham]

So as not to offend any long-term members on this list I did first do a search and did not find an answer to my question? I believe back in 2018 William Henderson in PDX after an accident had a wheel set built with the same hubs I'm considering, if he could chime in that would be excellent.

On with the question,

Does anybody have experience with the Velo Orange Grand Cru 135mm QR Shimano hub? Specifically, has it held up over time? How does it feel? Does it spin freely? How does it sound? Meaning is it silent or does it have a loud ratcheting noise? What were your initial impressions of the build quality and then later impressions.

It's my aesthetic, I just see my new to me Atlantis built with silver shiny hubs otherwise I'd build my new wheels with a DT Swiss 350 rear hub and be done. I'm considering a White Industries hub but that's close to $200 more over the VO hub. Just debating whether the extra $$ is worth it? 

I'm going with the Velocity Cliffhangers, wish they came in silver :( Planning on running schwabe g ones in 2.25" evolutions for cush and speed. If you have a recommendation on rims that will allow for tubeless, decent tire profile in silver please lmk. FYI not going with the HED Belgian rims at $165 nope! 

I'm also looking for the Riv stem shifters currently out of stock on the Riv Hq site. If anyone has a pair that they're willing to part with let me know? 

Best Regards,

Hugh in Sunny SoCal Los Angeles to be exact. 

Since I'm honorable and might as well ask another question. I plan on running aluminum albatross bars any recommendations for grips. My preference is a easily removed grip like the Ergon which I have. Is there an esi like grip that's removes simply?

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I laughed out loud. 

Good luck with your question re: wheels! As for grips, I can offer a plug for the white Ergon grips, which somehow are much sportier than the black ones. I love them on my Platy, and I think they would look smashing on your Atlantis. 

Leah

[Hugh Smitham]

Thanks for your recommendation. Glad I could give you a laugh :)

Hugh

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[WilletM]

I just ordered a custom pair of silver anodized MSW Cliffhangers through Peter White Cycles, though they won't arrive until late March or early April.  I also had checked in with Velocity by email a few weeks back and was told that their standard silver anodized rims (unlike my machined sidewall custom order) would be back in stock in mid February.  I believe they also make the Cliffhanger in a polished finish, but I'm not sure if those are in stock anywhere.

Good luck with your "shiny" build.  My Cliffhangers will be part of a VERY shiny build on a Bombadil I'm working on.

Willet M.

[Hugh Smitham]

Nice to hear from you. I think I'm going to have pro-wheel builder build the wheels and I don't think the ones that you're getting from Peter White are an option? I think those are a custom option The velocity will do?? I look forward to seeing your build. Please post it up on the group when your finished.

Hugh

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[Joe Bernard]

I have polished WI hubs with Velocity Atlas rims that Rich @ Riv/Hands On Wheels built me. My rim choice won't help you and I can't vouch for V-O hubs, but White Industries is light and smooth and makes a cool buzzing sound at the freehub without being loud. Worth every penny in my opinion, I love em. 

[Hugh Smitham]

Hiya Joe,

I agree the WI hubs are nice. I have a WI rear hub on my Bantam adventure bike. The buzzing noise is cool except that to the horses in our area it sounds like a rattlesnake :0 Honestly I was hoping to save a little bit of coin on a wheel build. Seriously with the white industry hub it'll put the wheel build nearly what I paid for the frame.

Best,

Hugh

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[Ben Miller]

I built up a rear wheel for a friend's bike build using older generation VO Grand Cru hub. Was fine building up and riding. Alas, the bike wasn't ridden long enough for me to report on long term performance. 

An other option is Suzue's rear hub. I haven't used their rim brake hub, but I'm about to build up a disc brake one. That also seems fine in the hand. And I have a White Ind rear hub with over 10000 km on it, so I know what that's like. I'm hopeful the Suzue will perform the same!

As far as rims, you mentioned the HED belgium, but not Pacenti rims, any reason? I'm build that Suzue rear wheel with them. Almost half the price and lighter than equalilent velocity rims. I know some people don't like them, but I definitely think they're a great option

[velomann]

Velocity A-23 rims come in silver, are tubeless compatible, and have a brake track.

I have a pir I'm going to build up for my Sam as soon as I track down the right hubs.

Mike M

[Hugh Smitham]

Hi Ben,

I appreciate the feedback. 

I was advised by a buddy with a ton more wheel knowledge than I that the Pacenti rims  are targeted for Rando bikes with 42-47mm tires. They are narrower than the HED or Quills. I'm going to run a ~55-57mm tire/2.25" g one's. I think I could get away with the Pacenti's but he also said with a larger tire it would have a greater tendency under low pressure and cornering to lose its bead and fall off. Something about the j hook design.

Best,

Hugh

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[Hugh Smitham]

Hi Michael,

Here are the specs for the Cliffhangers and A23's. You'll notice the A23's optimal max tire width is 35mm 

https://www.velocityusa.com/product/rims/cliffhanger-584

And the cliffhanger optimal tire widths are between 45mm and 65mm the schwabe g1's are 2.25 or approximately 56 mm.

https://www.velocityusa.com/product/rims/cliffhanger-584

I imagine your going to run a narrower tire?

Best Regards,

Hugh

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[Weston Hein]

The wheelset on my Clem is built from the previous generation VO touring hubs (same manufacturer?)  laced to Cliffhangers. I've run 2.35 G-One speeds and 55mm Antelope hills on them and both tires set up very easily tubeless using velocity rim tape. 

I'm really happy with the hubs- they feel really smooth and have minimal resistance when spinning them in the stand. I'd rate the free hub as medium loudness. It's not a hub noise that I would "notice" as being unusually loud if that makes sense. No high pitched buzz or anything that makes you focus on it. But it's definitely not Shimano quiet. I did quiet it down some using some Dumonde Tech free hub grease but the effect wore off and I stopped reapplying it as the hub noise doesn't really bother me. 

Hubs have been problem free for 3 years of Seattle commuting/light touring and off-road riding. The free hub is incredibly easy to service and the bearings are easy to access too (though I haven't had to replace them). All in all I think it's a great value for a nice looking, no nonsense hub. Can't argue with the quality of White, but if you're looking for a lower price point the VO may be a great option. If I needed another 135 qr wheelset, I'd choose these hubs again, especially with the excellent customer support that I've had from VO in the past.

[Ben Miller]

Hi Hugh,

Sounds like you know what you are after in terms of rim size, and yeah as you found I think you're choices in silver are limited. 

I'm not trying to argue or change you're mind, but I am going to offer a counterpoint to anyone else you is following this thread. Jan of Bicycle Quarterly has opinion that rim width on larger tyres doesn't effect handling. He has a brief section in his recent book on this very subject called "rim width and cornering" that includes a compelling (to me) example. And, from my own experience, I have 60 mm wide tyres on Velocity Dyads which have an internal width of 18.6 mm.

Everyone has their own experiences and preferences, which is one of the best things about building up bikes because you get to express that. I'm sure you'll be happy with you're piece of mind on wider rims! Best of luck.

[Hugh Smitham]

Ben,

You don't sound argumentative and I appreciate your opinion.

Is that article online? If it is, I'd appreciate a link, I'm curious to read Jan's opinion on this matter. I was expressing someone else's belief which I think I mentioned. I have had various experiences with larger tires and depending on the rim and psi I've felt the tire roll or collapse on cornering. Probably user error, running too low of a tire pressure. I've had 2.1 thunder burts on a 23mm rim and 2.8 and 3.0's on a DT Swiss 40mm rim and on my AHH I ran Velocity A23's with numerous tires from 38 to 42mm. As far as the Pacenti rims I think my buddies opinion was simply the j hook that holds the bead on isn't a good as say the HED's but good god $165 per rim. I actually like the look of the Pacenti rim. Although I can't recall where I heard this but they were difficult to set up tubeless? I may be wrong on this matter. If you have first had experience with the Pacenti I'm happy to listen/hear.

Best, 

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

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[Fullylugged]

Prowheelbuilder.com has the silver color Shimano 105 (R7000) rear hub for $61 and front for $36.  105 is a longer tested product than V-O, if you can live with a non polished finish, and the price is certainly right.  I built a 650B set with these hubs and Velocity Synergy rims.  More recently I bought a set of wheels with A23 rims and like them so far.  I have 38mm tires on both wheelsets. A third wheelset has the polished White Ind hubs and Synergy wheels and 32mm tires. All of them ride just fine. 

[Steve Cole]

Hugh,  You and I seem to share the same aesthetic.  About a year ago, I purchased a long chain stay Atlantis.  I also wanted silver hubs and rims.  I worked with James and Candice, the great folks at Analog Cycles, to make my dream bike.  It has a James-recommended silver 36H Bitex BX103R rear hub fitted to a 9 cog cassette, a silver  Schmidt SON Deluxe Wide body QR 32H Front Hub, Velocity Quill Rims, and Sapim Race spokes.  These wheels are shod with Rene Horse 700C x 55 Antelope Hill gum wall tires.  I love my wheels, not to mention my Atlantis. I would not change a thing.  Not inexpensive, but I expect this great bike to be the one bike for the remainder of my riding.  Good luck,

Steve Cole

Arlington, VA

[ascpgh]

I like shiny silver as well. My 650B rando bike has a SON front hub and a Suzue Classica cassette rear with Pacenti Brevet rims and 650B x 42 BSPs.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[lconley]

Any Velocity rim can be had in silver, they are simply not stocked in silver, you can also get polished or many custom colors. You can also get them in any drilling. It is only necessary to wait for the next production run. I have sets of polished silver 650B Cliffhangers in 40 spoke on my Bombadil and 48 spoke on my "Keven's" Bike (cargo bike). You just need to contact Velocity directly or have your wheelbuilder do it. I generally build my own, but also have had Peter White and Hands on Wheels build them. Their wheels are better than mine, but I am getting better.

I have had a set VO touring hubs - 9 speed shimano, for several year and have had no problems.

Laing 

Delray Beach FL

On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 8:32:18 PM UTC-5 Hugh Smitham wrote:

[Patrick Cronin]

Hugh,

Here's a quick observation from master wheel builder Bill Mould, who inspected my abused White Industries MI5/Velocity Dyad wheelset:

Bill took a magnifying glass to each and every spoke hole and nipple and found significant flaking and cracks. He recommended replacing the rim. Next, he said, "let's see about this hub." He spun it in his hands and said, "Here, you hold this wheel while I spin it and then we'll swap it with this wheel over here with a brand new MI5 hub." There was no observable difference in feel. He then took the old wheel and placed it on the truing stand and spun it slowly; we laughed as it just kept on turning, refusing to stop. He smiled and said, "arguably the best hub ever made."

Spend the money on the White Industries hub. 

-Patrick

[velomann]

"You'll notice the A23's optimal max tire width is 35mm"

I'm not sure why Velocity says that. And what is "optimal max?" It seems like Optimal and Max are 2 different things?

Anyway...

I use the chart WTB has on their website here: https://www.wtb.com/pages/tire-rim-fit-chart  

I've found it to be accurate and extremely useful. 

I will be running Panaracer Gravelking SK's - 650b x 47 - on these rims and expect it to be just fine based on experience with rims of similar width.

BTW, Will at Rivendell recommended these rims for similar size tires.

But I probably would go wider if I was interested in running 55's.

MIke M

[Hugh Smitham]

Mike,

I misstated,  velocity doesn't say "optimal" anything on the A23. I extrapolated that from their specs. Meaning 35mm was their recommended max tire width. They use the term"optimal" with the cliffhanger's specs. Sorry for the confusion.

 

Specs

RIMS (CLICK FOR COLOR OPTIONS):
A23 650c : 23mm - 35mm tires
A23 700c : 23mm - 35mm tires
A23 OC 700c : 23mm - 35mm tires

I think that's just what they feel comfortable listing perhaps based on their testing? I ran 42mm on a similar velocity rim. Report back how your 47's do on these rims?

Hugh

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[Hugh Smitham]

Weston,

Really helpful info much appreciated Sir. Considering the PNW climate that's a pretty good review.

Hugh

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[Hugh Smitham]

Hi Bruce,

And thanks for the info. Do you think the A23's would handle a 55mm tire well? 

Hugh

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[Hugh Smitham]

Steve,

I like "I expect this great bike to be the one bike for the remainder of my riding" I have a similar thought regarding this Atlantis build. 

I know nothing about the Bitex hubs other than they are a UK based company. I was actually planning on 32 hole rims. I currently weigh in at 180# and figured that would be sufficient. I think the velocity quills or cliffhangers would be great. 

I think it's a good aesthetic :)

I appreciate to recommendation.

Hugh Smitham

LALA land 

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[Hugh Smitham]

Hey Andy,

Great minds think alike.

I need to learn more about this Suzue Classica cassette rear. New to me. I'll ask you the same question I've asked others. Do you think the Pacenti Brevet rims would handle a 55mm tire well?

Hugh

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[Bruce Herbitter]

Hello Hugh:

The A23 is narrow for a 55 to sit well, I think. It’s also shallow compared to the cliffhanger. The Atlas might actually be one for you to consider with 55 tires.

Bruce

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 4, 2021, at 5:30 PM, Hugh Smitham <hughs...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Hugh Smitham]

Bruce,

I think if I'm being totally honest with myself?

I'd like the option to run a tire between a 47 mm and a 55 mm. I think I'd like the option to run a narrower tire if I wanted to? I need to figure which rim would be suitable for that range. I'll look at the Atlas. 

Thanks,

Hugh

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[Weston Hein]

Just my experience on the whole rim width debate as a 185lb rider- tire pressure is the most important variable. 

I run my tires much lower than most (felt by taking their bikes for a spin and all the comments that I "have a flat tire") and the narrower the rim the easier the tire collapses during low pressure cornering. I've run the 55cm Antelope Hills on i18mm rims, same as an A23, and they squirmed with the tire pressures I like to run. Around 15psi tubeless says the AccuGauge. The Cliffhangers tolerate the lower pressures without any instability. 

When I pumped either wheelset up to higher pressures there was no difference felt between the two, and I think that's where the argument comes in that wide rims aren't necessary. If you tend to run higher pressure and like your tires firm than it may never be an issue. But if you run your tires low to the point where you can see your rear deforming on the ground as your ride, it may be worth considering.

Just my 2c, ymmv as always!

[Hugh Smitham]

Weston,

I haven't made it through Jan's entire argument yet still waiting for him to talk tire pressure. So far he's said that the air not the tire side wall hold bike and rider. To your point, that seems like a reasonable expectation, low pressure vs medium to high pressures. To be honest I'm just not sure,  I do recall on my Bantam running DT SWISS XR 551's i-40, 44mm external wrapped with 3.0 schwabe Rocket Ron's with a pressure in the neighborhood of 12- 15 psi the sidewall felt squishy and unsettling and led me to run pressures between 18 and 20 PSI. I think my experience runs a little contrary to yours in that one instance. I do think that there are so many tire and rim combinations that it's hard to really pin it down as to what's the ideal pressure. I think the ideal pressure is whatever the rider decides based on their comfort and safety level. Obviously based on what tire and rim combination they're running.

I need to finish reading Jan's article. I'll report back.

Hugh

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[Ben Miller]

Hugh, 

Sounds like you may have already found it, based upon your previous comment. But he is a link to the online article https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-18-wide-tires-need-wide-rims/

Ben

[Hugh Smitham]

Ben,

I did. Thanks you.

Hugh

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[brendonoid]

In regards to the VO hub; I just relaced one I have been using on my commuter to it's 3rd rim. Had it since 2013? It is still going fine although I changed, weirdly, the bearings on the freehub a few years back because they had gone a bit crunchy, presumably from me being overly zealous with chain lube at some point washing dirt into them. The main hub bearings are still the originals and very smooth.

Caveats: Other than when I have serious accidents I seem to be super gentle on my gear and a bit obsessive about maintenance. I am over 6 foot and only 80kgs and have hyperactive mechanical sympathy. Oher peoples mileage may literally vary. I also enjoy the silver look though its practicality in the long term has in recent years made it somewhat less desirable. Also hate setting up brakes on a polished rim.

[brendonoid]

I should have said that every fancy hub out there no matter the horrific, inexplicable pricetag pretty much all use the same 6902 bearings and if they ever wear out are very easily replaced. I had to replace the bearings in a Phil Wood and chucked $5 bearings in there and boom smooth as anything.

That said I still buy the expensive stuff because I'm an idiot. All the truly great hubs though are cup and cone shimano's from the 90s. Can't beat Japanese made stuff from the 90s. See used hub prices on Ebay. Sheesh.

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Hugh,

No personal or first hand usage experience to offer and I've not yet had a chance to fully read all replies so this may have already been mentioned but it might be worth checking out Velo Orange's Voyager rim - it made it's way onto my shortlist for a potential wheel build based on similar wants/needs and the Voyager fits somewhere in between the Cliffhanger and the narrower rims like the Dyad and Atlas, comes in silver finish, and tubeless compatible. I forget the exact tire range VO stated for the Voyager compared to the Cliffhanger but I at least recall the narrow end was down to 38mm tires and covered a range of widths I'm considering.

Best,

Brian Cole

Lawrence NJ

[ascpgh]

Hugh,

I am riding 650B x 42 BSPs on those Pacenti Brevet rims and it's taken me some time to get used to the smoothness they can provide without delving below the PSI necessary to keep the sidewalls structural enough for quick steering changes and high pedal efforts during a turn. I had to learn this envelope with the 700 x 32 Stampede Pass on my Rambouillet too. 

I can't imagine how badly a 55mm wide tire's sidewall would luff if I unknowingly got below that structure supporting pressure with them. I don't have experience with any wider tires on the Brevets, just the memory of summer 1988 in southwest Colorado and a new pair of Specialized HardPack 2.2 (not the neutered HardPack II) tires. They provided me the baseline education regarding what is "just enough" PSI and how your intended riding dictates that, not your thumb, the pump dial or a couple of leans on the handlebar with the front brakes clamped. Ouch. Continental Divide decent ouch. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Pancake]

I also wanted to point out the VO Voyager rim, exactly between the Atlas and Cliffhanger width, polished silver, rim brake and tubeless compatible. Excellent and will go on my "one day" wheelset when I'm ready for a dyno build with the best stuff (e.g., maybe some hub beyond Shimano's "great but not fancy looking" options). 

For anyone looking for significantly cheaper but similar width, tubeless ready rims, see that Alex Adventurer 2 https://alexrims.com/products/adventurer2/ - sometimes called the Adventure. Ticks all the boxes EXCEPT it's not all silver (only the rim brake surface is silver). But a screaming deal at $36 / rim. I had some built by universalcycles (DT double butted spokes, LX hubs) so I could try a tubeless setup on my Hillborne - it was excellent until I put too much air in the tire and popped it of the rim (entirely my fault, didn't read the separate and lower tubeless PSI max limit on the rene herse website for my snoqualmie pass tires). Now with tubes I'm still very happy with them. Nice for 35mm-52mm wide tires. 

The old rule of thumb was "tire size should be about 2-3 times the rim interior width." Sheldon's thoughts on rim vs. tire width - https://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html#width

Many have said, and it seems supported by actual use reports, that the Panceti rims are nice with wider tires than the above chart indicates. Clearly 90's mountain bikes had narrower rimes relative to tire width (easily 3-4 times wider than the rim width) with success. In fact, there seems to be a consensus that there's a "wider" (forgive me) range than the Sheldon chart suggests.

Abe

[Dean Henderson]

Hugh,

I have VO Grand Cru hubs on Homer... 2130.9 trouble-free, shiny, silent miles, so far. 

Dean

[James Cooper]

Id go with those cliff hangers based on the tire width you want to run. The A23 might work but it will look odd to have such a wide tire on a narrower rim. 

[Casey McMann]

Hugh,

Check out the VO Voyager rims. They’re not too expensive, the polished finish is really nice, and they build up really nice. I’ve been commuting on them since June and have had zero problems. 

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[Bill Fulford]

Hugh, I run g ones 2.25 on my Atlantis with Atlas rims. The tire pushes the limit but does work. The tires are solid on turns. I have an older model Atlantis so they barely fit on the frame. I’m curious how you plan on setting up your bike. Your previous Atlantis is one of my favorites, a true touring bike!

[Hugh Smitham]

Hiya Bill,

I appreciate the compliment on the previous build. Good to hear your wheel tire combination work.

On this build I'm going with a more around town lighter setup.

Since I posted this on the forum I believe I've decided I'd like to run a tire from 47 mm up to~55mm. I may start out with a WTB horizon or byway. For rims I am leaning towards the Velo Orange Voyager rims in 650B setup tubeless. Unfortunately they're out of stock!!

Albatross bars. I really want to keep my cockpit clean so I'm considering downtube shifters or stem shifters. My preference would be the downtube shifters, just simpler and cleaner lines. I don't care about indexing so friction is my preference. Drivetrain 9-speed with a white industries double crank. 

Small Nitto rack up front and small Nitto rear rack both of which I have. I'm considering Paul Minimoto brakes and I have Paul brake levers. Vice silver pedals to complete the build.

Hugh

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[David Person]

Hugh, too bad (for me) that you need 650b Voyagers,  as I have a set of 700c Voyager rims hanging up.  I built them up into wheels but decided to go with Dyads.  Could have made you a good deal.  I do have a set of silver VP Vice pedals in excellent condition, if you are in need of a pair.  I gotta get around to listing some of items it's time to purge from the collection.

David

[Brett Callahan]

Hi David, I might be interested in those 700c voyagers you're hanging onto. I'll send a PM, too, but I know they don't always come through. If you're interested in selling and don't get a PM, feel free to email me: waterfowl04 (at) gmail (dot) com

[Hugh Smitham]

Hi David,

I have plenty of VP pedals. I wish they were 650b :)

The Atlantis arrived yesterday. Can't wait to build it up.

Hugh

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[David Person]

No prob on the pedals.  Thought I'd throw it out there.  I have two individuals interested in the rims, so that worked out.  Do you know what year your Atlantis was made (approx)? 

[Hugh Smitham]

2018

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