"Sadly, Long Shen is closing" Another loss to lugged steel frame production

[M Talley]

I wondered if anyone here knew of this or more about the circumstances of the closing of Long Shen?

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/fnl-531-a-52498.html

I stumbled on this info while searching for the meaning of R. Sachs B.I.F.I.™ . . .  YAS - Yet Another Sachsism

[Bill Lindsay]

I don't know anything about the details, or even if it is true.  If it is true, that sounds pretty scary for Rivendell, unless they've known about it and are proactively transitioning over to more lugless work.  Or maybe they have stocked up.  That's Rivendell's lug supplier. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Johnny Alien]

I seem to remember a Blahg not so long ago in which Grant spoke about them fearing about the lug manufacturing stopping.  I remember he said that they worked out something that made him feel a bit better.  A huge stockpile of lugs or something? I can't remember but I do think this was a concern so I am not shocked if it's true.

[M Talley]

You've made me curious about this info having been mentioned earlier. I found this from earlier in the year RBW Owners Bunch but had no luck finding a Blagh entry:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-jLZY0dpWZ4/3YF_RVSCCgAJ

A mention of a "post-Long Shen world" and the "instability of the lug manufacturers" came up during the discussion about the early GBW sample. I've always assumed that the recent use of fillet joints was as much cost driven as it was by the freedom needed in new designs coming forth. A slacker seat angle where it meets longer chain stays or junction of a curved second top tube not to mention curved-for-clearance single top tube joint are all non-standard in the lug vernacular.

So this may be old news but what I found surprising in that link to the discussion joined by Richard Sachs. He is usually the calm voice. When True Temper called it quits it was his commentary "There's no crying in framebuilding. Notes from a cycling lifer on how to survive in the industry"

http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/c47-people-0/195-richard-sachs-theres-no-crying-in-framebuilding-0

This made me think - yeah someone always steps in when there's a void. So (if this is true news) after all, was Long Shen indispensable? Who makes all of the creative newer design drop outs, fork tips and dropout lugs and crowns for All City, Surly, Tumbleweed etc? Perhaps the quality of Long Shen in the job of a more complicated and delicate lug isn't matched by anyone else. Why else would a Richard Sachs stockpile for the future?

[Patrick Moore]

Does anyone else make lugs besides Long Shen?

Henry James's website is still up; I suppose that means they're still in business? But Lon Shen did customs, of course.

http://www.henryjames.com/bicyle-parts/bike-lugs.html

Back in the beginning, Grant used HJ lugs and crowns, IIRC.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique

[Johnny Alien]

I know I saw this in one of his blogs but now I can't locate it either.  He was discussing how things were happening that made him very concerned about future lugs for Rivendell but then they did something that made him feel more solid for the future.  Sounded like he made a massive order or something to stockpile.  I will keep looking.

[Fullylugged]

Patrick wrote:
"Back in the beginning, Grant used HJ lugs and crowns, IIRC."

My 1995 has Suntour stamped on the dropouts.

For lugs today, Kirk P has a nice offering. https://framebuildersupply.com/collections/designed-by-kirk-pacenti
Don't know if GP & he will discuss or not.

[Patrick Moore]

My 1994 custom used HJ lugs or at least a HJ crown because the Riv crown wasn't ready yet. (I think.)

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[Christopher Murray]

I think Waterford used HJ lugs around the time they were building the early Rivendells. I had a Waterford 2200 that had HJ lugs.

Chris

[Johnny Alien]

https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/peeking-through-the-knothole/2019-no-6-early-march-brake-pads-free-books-more-bootses

"We had a short scare from our lugmaker. Most of the employees are near retirement, and they-the-owners aren't going to keep on making lugs for multitudinous more years; but the scare was that -- for a while there -- it looked like we wouldn't be able to get any more lugs, period. We were living with that for three days, and came up with plan to deal with it. Now we're set thru this year at least, and have the opportunity to buy tons for the future. Lugs are expensive, so our capacity to buy is limited, but at least we can get them."

[Mike Godwin]

Perhaps this is a solution, MUSA lost wax casting in Hollister CA. Got a tour in March, they make the casts with 3-d layup/printing that "prints" with casting wax. Photo of pre-heating a mold before a pour.

http://americancastingco.com/

Mike SLO CA

On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 12:19:27 PM UTC-7, M Talley wrote:

[M Talley]

Ah yes, so this problem's arrival has been mentioned. The solution that is on-going and illustrated by that custom Nobilette build with lugged headtube top and bottom and seat tube/binder really illustrate where builds are currently with the production frames also. These changes might indicate there will be no more fully lugged production models going forward. The language of this statement would seem to suggest a change in the original ethos of the brand: 

"Lugs aren't necessary, but they add some non-genericness, and they add excitement to the bicycle archaeological finds of the future. That is the worst reason for building with them, but it's also undeniable."

The better reasons for building with lugs if left out of the discussion seems a change from Rivendell Bicycle Works' beginnings. A sad reality of the times? Does this eventually mean no more A. Homer Hilsen or Sam Hillborne or Cheviot?

[Joe Bernard]

It's actually the original vision, which Grant backed out of shortly after the company got going. A very early interview mentioned lugged models, plus a possible lower-priced TIG bike.

Lugs are great and my custom will have them, but it's going to have some filleted joints like that recent one, too. I like both!

[Matt Jacobs]

I have some on-site perspective to lend to this discussion - I apologize in advance if I am somewhat long-winded. Hopefully you find it interesting and somewhat engaging.

About three weeks ago, I got back from a two-month work study in Taiwan through my university. While I was there, I worked for a company in the Dadu district of Taichung, that does precision die casting, working primarily in Aluminum, Magnesium, and Zinc. They're called Magic Precision (here's their website if you're curious). Magic Precision hasn't made many bicycle parts to my knowledge - they do make some pretty cool parts though, such as laboratory equipment for National Instruments, as well as the motor mounts, cooling fins, and other assorted castings for a company in California called Zero, which is a manufacturer of performance electric cycles...motorcycles, that is (almost had ya there). They also make the housing for many popular e-cigarette brands, too, which most of the workers find to be gross but a few are really on board with. Along with many, many other interesting parts. 

Every other week or so, my friend Nate and I would go with a few other employees from Magic Precision with our manager, who would take us to visit other companies in our area that we do business with. On one of these visits, we went by a company that was similar to ours, a job shop in essence...exclusively for lost-wax investment cast pieces, called Shin Yih Precision Casting Co Ltd. I had done a little investment casting when I took metals class two semesters ago, but my dinky molds were no comparison to the absolute wonder that took place before us. I'll let the pictures do most of the talking, but if you are curious about what's happening here, this page from Rivendell's site is a good primer on how companies like Long Shen do their business. In fact, the video on Riv's article could have been taken at Shin Yih, even though the two companies are a district apart (about a 30 minute drive from Dajia district to Qingshui district).

Here are some photos from my tour at Shin Yih. If you scroll down you can see a few bicycle parts - most notably a nice sloping fork crown, a chain tool, and a facing tool for canti brake bosses.

Why do I share this? In my experience, each business in Taiwan is pretty specialized to a niche industry - if there is sufficient demand, other companies like Shin Yih will step up to fill in, in case Long Shen really does bite the dust. The rumblings that they're on their way out would be disappointing to many, including me, but there are many paths forward - this is just one. This is only my supposition, of course, but Long Shen likely wouldn't be doing too well if their only customers were Grant Petersen, Kirk Pacenti, and Richard Sachs, and they have probably have found other ways to support their business from time to time. If someone at Rivendell is looking for a future supplier of lost wax investment castings down the road, there's a business card for a guy named Tony who took us around for a tour in the photo album, too. 

-- Matt Jacobs in Redondo Beach, CA (for now)

P.S. I will say that I love my MIT Atlantis, which has both lugs and fillet brazing throughout - each has its own unique beauty. I'm working in El Segundo, CA for the rest of the summer. I was worried, but LA is actually pretty good for cycling in my experience thus far. If there are some good Riv rides or BOB-ish groups in the South Bay area, please send me an off-list reply, I would love to hear all about it.

[Patrick Moore]

Interesting perspective and photos; thanks for posting.

Patrick Moore, who wonders if he ought to insist that his next frame be fillet brazed, in ABQ, NM

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[M Talley]

Yes, a nice inside story of a possible path forward for precision lugs and thank you for that inside view from Taiwan. 

Sachs really sounds like he had covered his remaining production schedule. He also mentioned having his "tools" returned - so the masters? for his personal designs (26 different castings). I would imagine Rivendell's tools are either going back to their hands or to the replacement casting company?

Fillet brazed is a path that makes sense when the recent designs are so varied / non-standard. There's an inside story of fillet production told by the young adventure bike brand's owner Cjell Mone. He is an experienced builder and is impressed by the mastery of the Taiwan brazers whom he joins in producing a run of his frames.

https://bikepacking.com/plog/made-in-taiwan/

I agree, there are likely many other brands that need a supplier for custom lugs. Just the number of suppliers and buyers / builders of "generic" Long Shen lugs is a supply quantity that would be seeking a replacement. So someone who can step in has to be eyeing that business.

This discussion in my mind is about the custom lugs that the eye identifies as Rivendell - not the Henry James look. I would miss stock Rivendells that aren't built to the old completely lugged standard. This is a game of cost - quantity ordered, capacity to produce (possibly small numbers)  in the general proximity (Taiwan) of the frame builder. The challenge might be if a qualified producer is interested when there's demand that pays top dollar for pricier technology-driven castings. My fingers are crossed for continuity of this standard full-lugged frame type. Perhaps the cost needs to increase to near custom MUSA for MIT.

I also apologize as well for my musing at length.

Mark

[Laing Conley]

Maybe this is sacrilege, but can lugs be 3D printed at this point?

 

Laing

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[M Talley]

I've wondered the same thing. Printed metal products have been shown at bespoked shows in titanium and steel. I wonder about the cost?

Newer technology has already entered the process in ways that save time / lower costs.  As Sachs mentions in that discussion at velocipedesalon - having no "Solidworks files" would be a daunting setback. 3D modeling and design likely has replaced making a handcut lug for the original design along the way. 3D printing from that digital design is likely how the model is made that becomes the (lost) wax pattern that goes into making the multiple ceramic mold step. The ease of having a digital file that is where a small modification can be made is probably invaluable for the speed and keeping costs low (picture a 72° to 73° seat lug design change with just a quick tweek to a digital drawing).

It's a gritty looking process, the casting portion of making lugs. I'm sure there are reasons it still looks similar to the ways of the Bronze Age. Factors that effect the end product are likely still demanding of similar methods. It sounds like Matt Jacobs who posted above about his experiences could tell the story of methods new and old.

When I've wondered about modern 3D metal printing a thought about strength and durability always enters my mind. The parts may be equal but there must be a hardening process which is at least one more step to think about. It's the straightest line of process steps to an (close-to) equal part that would win. I've also pictured the 3D printing of the wax pattern piece as well? This could short-cut out one molding step. These are all questions for a manufacturing insider - which I am not.
Mark

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[Mike Godwin]

The tour I took at American Casting went through the wax printing/buildup process, to making and curing the ceramic molds, to casting with molten metal. American Casting does vacuum casting (for gas sensitive metals like titanium) and "open" furnace casting for steel alloys (atmospheric pressure).  I'm sure their full process is the same Matt observed in Taiwan. American Casting has a room of something like 18 3d machines, and the folks work 3 shifts to keep up with the automotive, aerospace, and medical casting needs. They are 90 miles from RWHQ.

Mike SLO CA

[Kyle Brooks]

Late, late reply on this thread - but I recently got an email from Grant Mosely, the owner of Mercian Cycles in Derby, England. Long Shen is their main lug supplier. What he told me is that Long Shen is ceasing production, but that they have a "sister company" that will keep making them at least for the foreseeable future. "No need to panic just yet" he said.

Kyle Brooks

Akron, Ohio, USA