Vaughn's custom for sale

[jeffrey kane]

omg - my size ... everything screams RIGHT about it. And I mean, everything ... well, except for the $3300.00 part (to my wallet, I mean).

Though, I am curious about the BB drop?

[Ray Varella]

What size is it?

Thank you
Ray

[jeffrey kane]

Here's the link:

https://www.rivbike.com/products/flyweight-hillibike-custom-54-8cm?_sid=b14ca0d6e&_ss=r&_pos=2&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJqZWZmcmV5LmthbmVAbWFjLmNvbSIsICJrbF9jb21wYW55X2lkIjogIkxWYjZhQyJ9

[Ray Varella]

Thanks Jeffery

I’m sure it will get snapped up quickly.

Glad it’s not my size.

Cheers,
Ray

[Patrick Moore]

That is nice, and my size too, and 6 1/2 lb is indeed light for a Rivendell off road bike. I'd ride it (with drop bar) tho' I prefer 700C fatties, TCO be damned.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[phil k]

I saw this in my email and it looks so good. Almost like an old school hunq

[Dave Small]

Am I the only one who saw this and thought that $3300 seems high for it, given the imperfections?  

Dave

[John G.]

What are the imperfections, aside from the paint chip? I don’t think it’s high at all. It’s 700 less than the going rate.

[jeffrey kane]

aaaannnnnd ... it appears to be sold!

[Ray Varella]

If I were ordering a custom from Rivendell, it would be very much like that bike.

Ray

[Justin Kennedy (Brooklyn, NY)]

Does it strike anyone as odd that they botched two fairly minor but important details on a custom frame job? and put a chip in the paint? i guess that's the Riv way ;-) and yeah, looks like it's sold. that's a relief i'm sure. 

On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 5:31:38 PM UTC-5, jeffrey kane wrote:

[Conway Bennett]

I know this is contrarian to group sentiment, but yes, how do you botch a custom? And it goes part and parcel with them periodically finding NOS bikes and parts in storage. I currently own three Rivs, have sold two, bought even more than the sum of the frames in parts from them, and have contributed to financial bailouts. Seeing this is disappointing as a someone who wants them to succeed but discourages me from financial support beyond buying what I need or want.

[Kieran J]

That's a lotta chedda for someone else's blemished custom frame. There's something perversely decadent about a Riv shop person being able to afford something like this (in addition to several other Rivs) and then Riv starting again from scratch to fix a couple minor issues. Only in Rivland I guess.

KJ

[S. Greco]

oof that crooked headbadge

[Dave Small]

Hi John.  The imperfections were the paint chip and a couple of design details, IIRC.  

Yep, it's a healthy discount off the going rate but I think the going rate is high and I've thought that for years.  I love Riv and have bought more than a few frames, a complete bike, and a lot of parts from them over the years, but I've never understood why someone would order a custom Riv.  A lot of good builders out there will charge less for a custom and could design one to ride like a Riv.  I'm not talking about an exact copy, but one designed similarly that has the same ride characteristics.  

I do see one advantage of ordering from Riv, and that's Grant's input and oversight.  That makes it more likely to ride like a Riv---there's some insurance there---but it's expensive insurance.  Obviously not everyone will agree with me, 'cause they do sell some customs.  

This isn't a knock against Riv, by the way---I'm sure there are underlying reasons for their pricing---I just think their customs represent poor value when compared to customs by some other good builders.  I've also thought that about some other frames and parts I've bought from Riv, but that didn't stop me from buying 'em!  

Dave

Boston/Indy

On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 10:38:05 PM UTC-5, John G. wrote:

[John Phillips]

   I was puzzled by the filet-brazed bottom bracket area. If one orders a custom, I assumed Riv would make 3 custom lugs for the custom order.

What does Riv normally do for custom bike orders?

Does Riv offer custom bikes entirely filet-brazed? Would it cost less or more?

John

[Conway Bennett]

The new Atlantis and Crust Nor'easter both are lugged with a filet brazed bottom bracket. I assume it reduces the cost but is it functionally better, worse, or the same as a lugged bb shell?

[Joe Bernard]

"I do see one advantage of ordering from Riv, and that's Grant's input and oversight. That makes it more likely to ride like a Riv---there's some insurance there---but it's expensive insurance. Obviously not everyone will agree with me, 'cause they do sell some customs."

I'm a very specific custom customer and will explain why it works for me (mine is at Joe Bell's awaiting paint).

I'm aware that I could have gone with someone local - like say, Fitz - for a little less money (and I love his work). But I'm not like a lot of you who want a full immersion buying experience with lots of measuring and talking, that's stressful for me. Grant knows me, what I'm built like and the kind of riding I do. I need an uber-upright frame now to accommodate my arthritis so I pointed at another custom they had done, explained the situation and gave them my PBH and general riding/parts style, and said "Make me one that looks kinda like that, have Joe Bell make it pretty, I'll pay you."

Another factor is I've been following the Grant/Riv thing since before there was a Riv, and this is my one shot before I get too old/disabled to get the full zoot deal with "Rivendell" on the downtube. I want it, I want that Riv ride and I have the money. It's happening!

Joe Bernard
Marin County CA.

[Joe Bernard]

Fillet-brazed joints.

Yes, my custom has a fillet BB, too. I don't know if it's to accommodate the angles or they just ran out of BB lugs, but I think it's cool so I don't care. Yes, they will build a complete fillet bike..there was one on the Blahg a while back built that way, then half faux lugs were added at the headtube. The frame had some pretty extreme angles and was cool as heck.

[lconley]

The fillet brazed bottom bracket was a $220 additional cost on my custom (the "swanky" orange one from the previous mailer). It was the best way to build the frame because they didn't have a bottom bracket lug that exactly fit the application. My custom didn't even get the custom lugs because (I assume) of the oversized tubing sizes used (no discount though).

Laing

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 1:11:41 PM UTC-5, Conway Bennett wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

Usually they're used because the "lugged" ones don't allow you to angle the chain stays enough to provide the clearance to make room for really wide tires.  I'd call that "functionally better".

On 2/28/20 1:11 PM, Conway Bennett wrote:

The new Atlantis and Crust Nor'easter both are lugged with a filet brazed bottom bracket.  I assume it reduces the cost but is it functionally better, worse, or the same as a lugged bb shell? 

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Patrick Moore]

When I ordered my first custom in late 1994, I told Grant that I wanted a road bike somewhat like my 1992 XO-1, 'but better." He said, "Oh, it'll be better." That Waterford-built 26" wheel road bike was indeed better, but the 1999 and the almost identical 2003 were far better yet. No measurements that I recall, just a few half-hour conversations, and the 1999 and 2003 have been my benchmarks for fit and feel ever since.

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 11:18 AM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

[Hetchins52]

"Making" a lug that is not cast from a mold involves a lot of work and secondary pieces cut and mitered then welded together, probably more work than fillet brazing.

The Gus and Susie MiT Hillibikes use mostly fillet brazed major tubes except for the fork crown.

David Lipsky

Berkeley

[Bill Lindsay]

I will disagree slightly with Steve, but only slightly.  Imagine Builder X had access to a lugged BB shell that was perfect for all the tubes coming in.  All the angles and clearances were perfect.  With that hypothetical BB shell on hand, then functionally, fillet brazing and lugged would be functionally equivalent.  Both strong, both reasonable weight.  Totally equivalent and absolutely impossible to tell the difference in use. 

If that hypothetical BB shell was already on hand, then the lugged assembly work would be cheaper.  Maybe not a whole lot cheaper, but not more expensive. 

If that hypothetical BB shell was NOT on hand and you had to go cast a new one, custom, then that's prohibitive.  Say $5000-$10000 and a few months to get something set up to cast a new BB shell.  Once you've done the prep work, then manufacturing hundreds or thousands of them is not that expensive, but that first one is really expensive.  Nobody makes a true custom cast lug.  No frame builder casts custom lugs for their custom frames.  Will they someday, with metal 3D printing?  Perhaps, but not today. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[John A. Bennett]

Rivendell is honest about everything that they do, even when they flub up. 

That leaves them open to criticism, but it beats the alternative by a mile. 

Other companies screw up, too, but they're more likely to keep mum about it, or spin it to cover a mistake: 

"We just scored a batch of NOS widgets. Get 'em while they last!"

That's not to say that Rivendell is the only honest company out there, just the one that I have the most first-hand experience with. 

In the 12 years I worked at Rivendell, I never heard anyone lie to a customer, was never encouraged to fib to save face, or to preserve the company "rep."

Quite the contrary. 

Sure, customers got steamed if we goofed, but they --and we-- slept better knowing that we were above-board and honest. 

As Grant wrote more than once, and I paraphrase, "This is not a secret company; ask us anything and we will tell you."

Sounds good to me!

John in Portland, Ore. 

[Dave Small]

Those are all good reasons to go with a Riv custom, Joe.  Your last sentence says it all:  "I want it, I want that Riv ride and I have the money."  I don't doubt you'll get a great bike for that money!

Dave

Boston/Indy

[Dave Small]

Hi Conway,

I thought the MIT Atlantis had a TIG'd bottom bracket.  Are you sure it's filet-brazed?  If yes, was the first batch TIG'd and the new batch filet-brazed?  I was told by an owner of one from the first batch that it was TIG'd, which is the main reason I didn't buy one.  

Dave

Boston/Indy

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 1:11:41 PM UTC-5, Conway Bennett wrote:

[Steve Cole]

Dave, 

This may not provide a definitive answer to your question regarding filet brazed BB vs TIG welded, but here's the RBW website's description of MIT Atlantis construction:

"Underneath, the investment-cast Rivendell lugs and custom drawn Silver tubes are the same. All frames are brazed and welded to the highest standards, with samples of each new production passing the rigorous EN tests."

Others with more direct knowledge may add to this.

Steve Cole

Arlington, VA

[Conway Bennett]

@Dave Small I do not know for sure but I feel like I read it somewhere.

[The Snag]

OMG THEY CHIPPED THE PAINT!!! How could they do that?? To a bike that costs that much?! Talk about fiscal irresponsibility. But let's not talk about the fact that a frame builder got paid to make a frame, and a painter to paint it, and the buyer is getting the bike that they wanted, and someone scored a deal on a SWEET bike. Nope, let's use this benign situation to speculate on the real reasons a small bike company struggles to make it these days. 

Haakon

Sarcasm, OR

[Drw]

Since fitz was mentioned, I’ll throw in a very high recommendationdatuon.

I think riv could’ve basically just offered this as a custom that someone didn’t want. They told us a bunch of info that we actually didn’t need, and now we are judging it. Paint blemish, yes, but bottle mounts and weird dropouts...nobody would’ve known. The mistake is telling us all the mistakes and then pricing it like they didn’t tell us the mistakes

[Joe Bernard]

Or course now I still want a Fitz. After that whole story about not being into taking all the measurements and lots of talking on the phone (or in person, it's 30 miles from me) and blah blah blah. It's only money, right? 😂

[hugh flynn]

The pearl clutching is a bit much. I'm going to assume this is just mid-winter cabin fever settling in. 

Someone has offered a bike for sale.

If you want it, buy it (someone has) If you don't, don't. Is there any more to it?

Hugh "really glad it was too small for me, cause I thought it was a dope bike" Flynn

Newburyport, MA

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 1:48 AM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Or course now I still want a Fitz. After that whole story about not being into taking all the measurements and lots of talking on the phone (or in person, it's 30 miles from me) and blah blah blah. It's only money, right? 😂

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Hugh Flynn
Newburyport, MA

[Conway Bennett]

I think anything that was stated comes from a place of caring and displays a passion for a brand and subsequent community that is unprecedented.

[Joe Bernard]

Exactly. I'm not a 100% "it's always all good" fan, but I've spent a breathtaking amount of money at that place, ride an electrified Clem L right now, and have a custom awaiting paint at Joe Bell. I'm all in!

[Conway Bennett]

To @John Bennett's point, riv is transparent, but so are we. What other company of their size gets such sincere and direct feedback and with little to no expense for re-engagement?

[hugh flynn]

Ok, fair enough, but I don't recall shushing anyone or implying one needs to pass a Riv loyalty test. I simply find the tone of outrage and insult over a frame being sold at cost a bit odd. I'm guessing the the builder and painter got paid. It's a custom. They don't come at scale prices.  

If I were selling it, I might have knocked a bit off for the paint chip, but I'm not selling it or buying it, so my thoughts on the matter are pretty meaningless. That said, I'm the fist to ridicule Rapha and others for "epic" marketing and bro-tuned adds - and I'm about as far away from being a customer of "epic" goods as one can get. So where does that leave me? Probably somewhat more reflective about MY comments than I was earlier today...

Hugh "got no dog in this fight" Flynn

Newburyport, MA

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:36 PM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, there's exactly more to it as has generated discussion. The attitude that we have to shush and never be critical of anything is not helpful or healthy.

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[Bill Lindsay]

For what it's worth, Hugh, I think I'm on the same page with you.  Somebody ordered a custom and a frame was built almost to spec, and the buyer elected not to take that frame.  The seller elected to have another frame made and offered up the reject at a discount, which somebody bought.  

Is Rivendell incompetent?  No.  

Were mistakes made?  Yes.  

Did Rivendell make it right?  Yes.  

Do the mistakes offend me?  No.  

If I was Vaughn, would I have rejected the frame?  Yes.  

Do the mistakes discourage me from buying products from Rivendell in the future?  No.  

Do I think there is any individual vendor of bicycle goods or services that has never made a mistake of any kind?  No.  

Is it my right to express outrage at anything that offends me?  Yes.  

Is it my obligation to express outrage at everything that offends me?  No.  

Do I think it is helpful to express my outrage?  Usually no.  

Bill "nothing-to-see-here" Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 4:57:05 PM UTC-8, Hugh Flynn wrote:

Ok, fair enough, but I don't recall shushing anyone or implying one needs to pass a Riv loyalty test. I simply find the tone of outrage and insult over a frame being sold at cost a bit odd. I'm guessing the the builder and painter got paid. It's a custom. They don't come at scale prices.  

If I were selling it, I might have knocked a bit off for the paint chip, but I'm not selling it or buying it, so my thoughts on the matter are pretty meaningless. That said, I'm the fist to ridicule Rapha and others for "epic" marketing and bro-tuned adds - and I'm about as far away from being a customer of "epic" goods as one can get. So where does that leave me? Probably somewhat more reflective about MY comments than I was earlier today...

Hugh "got no dog in this fight" Flynn

Newburyport, MA

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:36 PM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, there's exactly more to it as has generated discussion. The attitude that we have to shush and never be critical of anything is not helpful or healthy.

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[Ian Dickson]

Once Rivendell sent me a 700c frame with a 26" fork in it. Could that mistake happen anywhere? Yeah, probably. I called them, a person picked up the phone, I got a mortified apology, had a nice conversation, and they express-shipped me the right fork. Does that happen everywhere? No. It's nice dealing with nice people who make cool things.

[Mark Roland]

I had the same reaction as Hugh and John to this thread.

I understand this point of view:

What other company of their size gets such sincere and direct feedback and with little to no expense for re-engagement?

But the tone of this thread was, to me, more like non-constructive, non-helpful criticism.

As a long-time Rivendell customer, I've had a couple of interactions that were less than perfect. But that is the nature of most relationships. And the overwhelming majority of the time the company has gone above and beyond.

Two recent examples.

I pre-ordered one of the Cheviot sweaters. It came, it's beautiful. (I've been trying to find time to do a post about it.) I consider it a fantastic bargain. And then Rivendell decides they, I don't know? made too much money on it, so they send everyone who bought the sweater $25 gift certificates. Point me to another company that would do that. I would like to patronize them. (Funny enough, the "mistake" element entered here too, as they initially sent out certificates for $20 instead of $25. I had only the slightest fleeting thought of pointing out this "error." ) I get that it is partly marketing to a segment of its business that will order something sight unseen, and the certificate could potentially be a sales stimulant, but still.

Second example. I bought a second-hand Clementine to replace the one I had to sell for financial reasons a while back. There was something not quite right, so I called Riv to discuss and see if my idea to fix it made sense. They offered a brand-new replacement frame and fork. On a four-year old bike. Of which I was not the original owner.

I'm not saying nobody should ever criticize Rivendell. But this was about a one-off sale, a bike where either communication went awry or the builder had a bad day, or whatever. And Rivendell laid out the various "defects" and offered the bike for sale. Why that needed to have feedback is questionable to me. But then it spirals into finding stuff hidden in the warehouse (see the Crust basement sales on Instagram; this is a feature not a bug!) the cost of Riv customs, and how perverse it is that a Rivendell employee can afford a Rivendell. Maybe Rivendell customs cost a lot because they pay the builder and painter what their skills are worth, then make a bit on top of that as the designer and facilitator. Maybe a Rivendell employee can afford a Riv because they get a company discount, and because the company pays a living wage.

Most on this list are, by definition, at least slightly obsessed with bicycles. Between this type of consumer, and the chance consumer who likes "quality" and happens to hear about or see a Rivendell in the wild, that's a niche market within a niche market within a hurting industry. Most people thinking of buying a bicycle would think a Clem Smith Jr. is too expensive. Those that don't, if they had heard of a Clem Smith Jr. would mostly scoff at it and get a carbon machine.

 Anyone considering a custom bicycle is aware of other options and price points, so I'm not sure that falls under constructive criticism either. That would imply Rivendell getting this info and thinking about changing its pricing structure due to the feedback. I think its safe to say Rivendell charges what they need to charge for customs and still adhere to their business tenets. I also find it odd that many are quick to criticize Rivendell's financial woes, yet find the price of a custom too high.

Anyway, end of ramble. Athough it sometimes feels like piling on, I do appreciate the various viewpoints. (I just wanted to make sure the correct one got out there;^)

On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 7:57:05 PM UTC-5, Hugh Flynn wrote:

Ok, fair enough, but I don't recall shushing anyone or implying one needs to pass a Riv loyalty test. I simply find the tone of outrage and insult over a frame being sold at cost a bit odd. I'm guessing the the builder and painter got paid. It's a custom. They don't come at scale prices.  

If I were selling it, I might have knocked a bit off for the paint chip, but I'm not selling it or buying it, so my thoughts on the matter are pretty meaningless. That said, I'm the fist to ridicule Rapha and others for "epic" marketing and bro-tuned adds - and I'm about as far away from being a customer of "epic" goods as one can get. So where does that leave me? Probably somewhat more reflective about MY comments than I was earlier today...

Hugh "got no dog in this fight" Flynn

Newburyport, MA

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:36 PM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, there's exactly more to it as has generated discussion. The attitude that we have to shush and never be critical of anything is not helpful or healthy.

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[Mark Roland]

Whoops. Meant to add, the reason for the bottom bracket being fillet-brazed is right in the product description.

"More unusually, the down tube is 28.6mm. That’s skinnier than normal, but we had lugs for it. But no BB shell, so the BB area is fillet-brazed."

I wouldn't think, with a custom, cost would have much to do with it.

[Ian A]

Snipped from Mark's response: "Maybe a Rivendell employee can afford a Riv because they get a company discount, and because the company pays a living wage."

This is a really great point, and maybe exposes certain unconscious bias, even among us enthusiats. I'm guessing a fair few Riv workers live car-free or extremely car-lite. If a Riv employee spent their wages on a Toyota Echo no one would bat an eye lid, but investing in a bespoke bicycle can raise eyebrows. Despite the real cost of the custom bicycle being a fraction of the cost of typical car ownership.

People rarely regret paying for good quality.

IanA Alberta Canada

[Steve Cole]

Mark,

Here, here!  I couldn't agree with you more.  As a fairly long time RBW customer, I have always found them to bend over backwards to meet whatever needs I have.  I highly value them and am grateful every day and every ride that Grant created this business, these bikes, and this community  -- the one we all are a part of, which includes him and all those who work at RBW too.

Steve (deeply grateful for RBW) Cole

Arlington, VA

[Joe Bernard]

Two points without digging through all this again:

1. Although I personally never said otherwise, I still want to add that - as a customer myself - I don't think Riv customs are overpriced. They're designed by a guy who's been doing this a long time, built by a trusted builder who's brazed a lot of frames, and painted by the best in the business.

Yes you can find a cheaper custom builder, but I think some folks get googley eyes over the phrase "hand built" and just assume everyone doing that job is super great at it and all customs are equal quality. This seems unrealistic to me.

2. I'm not sure where employee pricing crept into this discussion. Vaughn hasn't worked there in, what, 10 years? If $3300 was 'at cost' at the time of this build then I presume he paid the $3500 buy-in that was available until recently (it's $4000 now). My understanding is there isn't much of an employee discount on ANY Riv frame, and I'm confused how this entered the thread. I'm sure Vaughn paid full pop, and the buyer of that "mistake" frame paid pretty close.

That is all. It's Sunday, let's ride!
Joe Bernard

[Mark Roland]

"There's something perversely decadent about a Riv shop person being able to afford something like this"

[Patrick Moore]

I think it's wonderful that a Riv shop employee should be able to afford a custom. In fact, I think that it ought to be part of the compensation package, for employees who perform well until their 5-year anniversary.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

Bill, I will challenge a few points you've made.

On Saturday, February 29, 2020 at 6:35:07 AM UTC+8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

If that hypothetical BB shell was already on hand, then the lugged assembly work would be cheaper.  Maybe not a whole lot cheaper, but not more expensive.

Why would the lugged assembly work be cheaper, even if you have a compatible BB shell on hand? In both filet brazing and lugged construction, the tube preparation is identical. With lugged construction, there is an additional step of preparing the lug. I've read that the best filet braze requires even smaller gaps, so perhaps that's where the extra cost comes from?

If that hypothetical BB shell was NOT on hand and you had to go cast a new one, custom, then that's prohibitive.  Say $5000-$10000 and a few months to get something set up to cast a new BB shell.  Once you've done the prep work, then manufacturing hundreds or thousands of them is not that expensive, but that first one is really expensive.  Nobody makes a true custom cast lug.  No frame builder casts custom lugs for their custom frames.  Will they someday, with metal 3D printing?  Perhaps, but not today.

Some custom builders offer custom lugs that are cut from tubes and welded together. These are not stamped nor cast like traditional lugs, but the amount of work is substantial (read: expensive). In addition, some bike manufacturers have already integrated 3D-printed parts into their process. For example, Moots and Firefly both use 3D-printed titanium dropouts to meet the challenge of producing mounting points for flat mount disc calipers. At least in Firefly's case, the 3D-printed dropout is hollow but with reinforcement ribs. I would think this is at least as intricate and challenging to make as any lug, and certainly a BB shell. The question may be whether small custom bike builders, who practice a traditional art, have the skill and money to invest in such a tech. Maybe there's a market there for a 3D print shop that can supply custom steel lugs to individual small bike builders such as Nobilette.

[Kieran J]

In hindsight, my comments sound judge-y and insensitive. That was not my intent; I don't know anything about the original buyer of this custom so I shouldn't go there. 

My opinion of Riv's custom prices remains the same though. 

KJ

[Bill Lindsay]

Kieran 

You didn't state an opinion about Rivendell's custom prices.  You only stated that $3300 is a high price for a rejected custom.  I agree with that opinion wholeheartedly.  In my opinion, at least half of the value of a custom is that it is custom.  The freedom to make something that has never been made before.  That freedom is worth $2000 to me, and in my opinion, the moment that custom is actually built, that $2000 worth of freedom is absolutely gone.  It's been spent.  In other words, it is no longer custom.  I would never pay a penny more than half-price on a rejected custom.  Used stock bikes retain their value in re-sale, because they are stock.  

Your post here implies that you have an opinion about the price of Rivendell customs, and I'll go out on a limb and guess that your opinion is that the price is too high. The nuance, and the place where I think interesting discussion happens, is why people think $4000 is too high a price.  I can imagine a bunch of different reasons why:

A. $4000 is too much for me to spend on a bike frame.  I can't afford it, and if I could, I would be too worried about protecting it to enjoy it

B. $4000 is a rip-off.  Rivendell is price gouging.  Riv is skimming way too much profit on a frame that's nowhere near that expensive to build

C. $4000 is too high because builder X will build whatever I request for $2500 and so it's just as good a bike for $1500 less

D. $4000 is too high because stock Riv Z is so good and so much more affordable

I totally understand and empathize with A.  I would disagree vehemently with B.  I think there's a really useful discussion to be had around C.  I wholeheartedly endorse D, but comprehend that many retro-minded Riv devotees want the more conventional Rivendell forms (aka short chainstays).

My main reason for not buying a custom may be E:  I'm way too opinionated to completely surrender the design process to Grant.  Grant has talked me out of a custom at least twice over the years.  My stock Rivs are spectacular, partially because I ride Grant's frame size :).  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Brian Campbell]

I have purchased 2 frames from Rivendell.  An AHH in 2011 and a Legolas in 2019. I asked for and paid for  the AHH  to be a custom color, Green. It came back from the painters Grilver. (Gray & silver mix).

 Riv.  offered to repaint the frame or give me a discount on the original frame price, sans custom paint up charge, equivalent to cost for custom paint. In short I got a new 2011 AA in a custom color for $300 IIRC less because of the mistake.

In 2019 I ordered a Legolas. In talking with Mark the bike was specced with rear rack mounts (for light loads) with the mounts on the inside of the seat stays. The frame came with them on the outside of the seat stays.  Mark asked if I was OK with that and I agreed it was not a big deal. He had already included DT shifter braze ons, front & rear fender mounts, seat stay bridge threaded fender mount, chain stay bridge threaded fender mount and a pump peg with no additional up charge.

 Riv has always done a great job of dealing with mistakes in my experience. 

[Jay Lonner]

I agree that $4k is a bargain for a custom bike, especially if your intended use includes commuting/utility cycling. Good luck owning and operating a car for that price. 

The reason my next bike won’t be a Riv is a variation of your option E - I’m interested in heretical technologies. I’d like to experiment with a Rohloff drivetrain, Gates belt drive, and disc brakes, all of which offer potentially compelling advantages in my soggy part of the world. I dig my Hunqapillar, but I keep a browser tab open on the Surly Ogre...

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

Sent from my Atari 400

On Mar 2, 2020, at 10:33 AM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Kieran J]

I like your multiple choices, Bill. Thanks for laying things out in your distinctive rhetorical style!

I feel like there is merit in all besides B. I know Nobilette builds a variety of frames, including as the go-to builder for Jan's RH superbikes. Obviously there is journeyman skillset there and the cost reflects this. Incidentally, if I were to order a custom Riv, it would probably be nearly identical to this one (albeit in 67cm).

That said, I have had two (less fancy) customs built for me simply because the bike I wanted did not exist in the world in my size or desired style. Besides the fact that both of them cost approximately 1/3rd that of a Riv custom, I went that route for the reason you laid out: they were built for me, under my direction. I love them both.

As you said, paying nearly full premium price for a blemished not-custom custom wouldn't do for me. That said, if a dead ringer of the original buyer (and presumably the secondary buyer of this frameset) is presented with the opportunity to purchase the custom they would have ordered anyways at a small discount and no wait time, the modest flaws could very well be a moot point.

KJ

[Mark Roland]

I kinda hope the buyer is not a list member, now that we've gotten our opinions off our chest.

If he or she is, please share when you get your new bike built up, it's a special one. In any case, it's already legendary...

[Bill Lindsay]

I hope the buyer is a list member and shows us their build.  It looks like it will be a really special bike.  If the buyer is a list member and saw a number of people proclaim why they would not have paid $3300 for this particular frameset, then I hope that buyer still feels satisfaction in having spent their money.  Most of us buy what we want, regardless of whether somebody else thinks we got a good deal. 

More importantly, I hope the buyer gets enough joy out of their new bike that they forget what they paid for it.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Joe Bernard]

I hope the buyer rode it in the dirt and put a couple more scratches on it and thinks we're a bunch of idiots who need to get off the internet!

[Kieran J]

Amen to that

[Keith Swanson]

I tried to refrain from posting about this but I have to.  A custom anything is a tremendous amount of work no matter what it is, and in my  experience none of the parties involved except the material supplier is charging what they should to properly compensate themselves.  Customers forget how quickly the hours add up on any little project.  This is aside from how long it took the people involved to learn their craft.  If one wants to have customers, you cannot charge enough to cover all of your time, even if the project goes perfectly.  Those of us who do custom work do it because we love what we’re doing, not because it’s lucrative.    

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/E40C540B-551B-400D-A719-7C8ED30AF5CD%40gmail.com.

[Michael / SF]

Buyer checking in! Yes, the plan is to add more chips to the frame but ultimately cake it all in dirt. Will is a friend, and I told him I’ll think of him every time I see the paint chip. We laughed about it.

I asked Grant to compare the design to any Rivendell, past or present. He chose the Hunqapillar, except with a level-ish top tube and lighter tubing. He told me he spent tons of time and energy designing the frame, poring over all the details and repeatedly, with an ear-to-ear grin, paused to remind me that "this is a really, really - really - good frame.”

He went on to praise Mark Nobilette and Joe Bell for being masters of their craft, and hinted at the “small run” MUSA frames coming later this year (sorry, didn’t get specifics). I could tell he is excited that Riv can generate hopefully-lucrative business for small custom shops like Nobilette and Bell, who he believes deserve to rake in the big bucks, but don’t. Not even close.

Assorted things:

• Yes, this was “Vaughn’s out of spec custom”, but it deserves to be called “The Flyweight Hillibike Custom.”
• This is exactly how I’d spec a Riv custom. In other words, “please mix the Susie/Wolbis - a hillibike for lightweights like me - with a Hunqapillar. Keep classic Riv details like shorter chainstays, fancy custom lugs, level-ish top tube, and soothing green paint. Design for Bullmoose or Albatross bars, cantis, and tire clearance up to 2.35. Plan for mountain biking and camping overnighters. Use the lightest tubing you feel comfortable with, but I can’t promise I won’t load it up.”
• No, I wouldn’t spec the fancy dyno dropout tabs, nor would I spec the triple bottle cage mount. In reality, all this amounts to is a single extra bottle mount. I’ll make use of it one day!
• I measure 1 PBH less than Vaughn and weigh a couple pounds more. All angles and measurements jived.
• My beloved 48cm/26” Hunq is slightly small for me. I’ve considered commissioning a MUSA 51cm/650b Hunq, but Rivendell won’t tweak stock frame tubing without entering $4000 custom territory. Alas, nothing happened until this custom popped up out of nowhere. Perfect!
• From the website: “A custom takes your weight and riding style into consideration, but a stock frame comes in one tube weight only---which is just fine if you're in the normal weight range (for normal people, not for pro- cyclers). If you're super stout for your height, maybe you DO need a custom. If you're really light for your height, there again, we can build your custom with tubes lighter than those we'd put on the equivalent A. Homer Hilsen, Atlantis, or whatever.”
• Yes, the frame was expensive, but Rivendell is a local business I love to support, especially in this wild chapter in San Francisco Bay Area history. My tax return really helped out and, again, they sold the frame at cost.
• You’ll be pleased to hear that Joe Bell provided touch up paint for the frame.
  

Grant was visibly jazzed about the frame, so much so that I jokingly made him say goodbye to it before leaving the warehouse, but I promised I'd bring it back next time I ride Shell Ridge.

Note that multiple people on this thread, many of my cycling friends, me, and at least one past Rivendell employee all want to ride a frame exactly like The Flyweight Hillibike Custom. The demand is out there. With that said, no regrets - I’m happy with the purchase.

I’ll post build photos when I get ‘em. Cheers!

Michael
SF / CA

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 3:08:40 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:

[John G.]

I'm glad it worked out so well for you Michael! Many happy and awesome miles on it. 

[Philip Williamson]

Excellent news! Thanks for the great write up.
It looks like a beautiful bike. It reminds me of the early Riv mountain bikes. As the Bring A Trailer crowd says: “stance.”

You and Vaughn will have twin bikes pretty soon. That would be something to see.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[jeffrey kane]

I started this damn thread .. and could not be more jealous (!). 

Fit wise: I'd want to be able to switch between drops and say, bull moose (and yet, still hope the BB wasn't too high) but hey, that's why the call it "custom" isn't it?

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 8:19:49 PM UTC-5, Michael / SF wrote:

[Clayton.sf]

The backdrop is awesome too! Statue of liberty 45 adapter?

Blew out my residential speakers earlier this year. Luckily have a decent setup in the barn, but I miss the vinyl. A few more months...

[Mark Roland]

Sweet. Thanks for the great back story. Congratulations and good deal!

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 8:19:49 PM UTC-5, Michael / SF wrote:

[Conway Bennett]

My best fitting bike is a 56 cm 650b Hunqapillar and I have long wondered what it would ride like if it was made of lighter tubing. I have very seriously considered getting a lighter fork made while maintaining the original geometry. I actually have a spare Hunqapillar fork and I would only need the blades removed and replaced with the lighter ones. I say this like it's easy. If folks know if this possible and have reccomendations how to achieve it relatively economically I invite suggestions.

[S. Greco]

I really hope some version of the hunq makes a comeback. I feel like I've always been one riv generation too late . . . or perhaps they've just always been ahead of the curve. likely a bit of both :)

[Michael / SF]

Getting everything dialed in. Soon I'll finish up with a front rack, basket, and dynamo lighting. It is "really, really - really - good" so far!

Michael

SF / CA

[Chris L]

That is awesome.  My new favorite Rivendell!

Congrats!!

[Max S]

Oh my, that looks great! Exactly how I'd set it up. (Actually emailed Will about it, but PBH didn't match.) Enjoy!! 

- Max "two bikes on loan, so there's a free hook, which is dangerous" in A2 

[Kurt Manley]

Very cool!

[Wyatt]

Might be my favorite Riv color scheme.

Bullmoose plus thunder burts plus a wide range cassette looks like a very fun combo.

[phil k]

Michael this looks good!

I would love a lighter tubed Hunqapillar that is slightly bigger than the 48cm I used to have!

That is also my favorite Riv color, aside from the bronze-green of their older Cheviots.

On Sunday, March 8, 2020 at 9:32:24 PM UTC-4, Michael / SF wrote:

[Ray Varella]

Judging from the reactions to this bike, Rivendell could likely sell a bunch of them.

Ray

[Joe Bernard]

I believe you are correct, Ray.

[Ray Varella]

If they made it available in enough sizes with minimal or no substitutions as a special order, it might keep their semi-custom queue filled.

Not trying to micro manage their affairs but it does seem to fill a niche not currently offered.

Ray

[Chris L]

I'll take it further and add that possibly following the Gus/Susie model of two versions for heavier/lighter folks might be a winner.  

Look at how fast old Hunqapillars usually sell on the used market.  

From comments here and on social media, it's clear that many people are turned off by the super-long chainstays and I've been hearing people pining for closer to level top tubes on Rivendells since I discovered RBW in 2011.  

Two versions of this bike as a production model with Gus/Atlantis/Appaloosa prices would be awesome.

[Mark Roland]

My understanding is that this is essentially a Susie but with a straight top tube and some customization. I've heard the "they will sell a ton of them" before--for instance, with the Legolas. If people are pining for almost level top tubes and don't like longer stays, there are lots of companies making that style of bicycle. From what I observe, Rivendell is not the kind of company that responds to trends, or even caters to what people think they want. They come from a somewhat different objective/perspective. Even when you order a custom, the process is different than working with a custom framebuilder directly, and you are not guaranteed to get everything you desire. 

I think it's important to acknowledge that we are in a serious echo chamber here on RBW Owners Bunch. On the other hand, what do I know. The bike in question doesn't have discs or a motor, so maybe folks at Rivendell will jump on this crowd-sourced business advice. If you think that might be the case, get our your postcards and  start anagramming "Vaughn Custom" !;^)