Pondering one 'nice' bike...

[David B]

I've had lofty goals to increase riding while working from home - those were unrealistic with young kids - and I'm now leaning towards one 'nice' bike as an all-rounder. I likely won't be doing road-exclusive rides, so don't really need a 'road' bike, hence the sale of my Roadini.

With a Roadini sale, I'll be left with the following:

Riv Redwood, 650b'd and fendered - https://www.instagram.com/p/B_yrQRyl3T6/

Riv Clem Smith Jr., currently w/ drops - https://www.instagram.com/p/B-99voyFx5D/

What I'd really like is a bike that can take 2.1" tires and fenders and be setup comfortably with either drops or albatross bars, and with geometry angles somewhere between the Clem (71.5 hta/sta) and Redwood (73 hta/sta).

I've been very attached to the Redwood, however I've been shifting to the 'bikes are just bikes' attitude and am open to passing it along if need be.

I say 'nice' as I have a lockup train station bike and a folding bike that I'll be keeping.

I see potential options as:

1. Sell Redwood, keep Clem and be okay with current setup

2. Sell Clem, keep Redwood and be okay with 47mm tires w/ fenders

3. Sell Redwood, sell Clem, buy an Appaloosa

4. Sell Redwood, sell Clem, buy a Black Mountain Monstercross

5. Ignore this desire and keep both bikes

Note - this is not a feeler for selling either bike - if I sell the Redwood it'll not be a bargain sale.

Thoughts, suggestions, other options? Other options would need to fit ~94pbh.

Thanks,

David

[Ginz]

Can the Appaoosa give you 2.1" tires plus fenders?  Or do you need an Atlantis for that?   The biggest question is can you setup one bike with both Albatross and drops and be happy? Will have to do the zero CM stem thing and will you be happy with that?

If you can be ok with the 47mm tires, I'd keep the Redwood and get the bars you like. 

Maybe pick the one bike, set it up how you want it and see how long the honeymoon lasts?  In other words, don't sell unless you've really tested your decision for a good while.

I, too, have a bit of identity crises among my bikes and am trying to figure it out.

Ginz

[S]

If you ever changed your mind, the Redwood would be the hardest to buy again, so if it were me, I would keep the Redwood. And I wish I had an Appaloosa, so I would opt for (6) sell Clem, keep Redwood, and buy an Appaloosa.

[Jason Fuller]

While I should take my own advice when I say this, I think the difference between 47c and 2.1" is almost all in one's head and you'll be able to ride either tire in basically any of the same situations and the bike will do the job.  That Redwood looks great and seems like a perfect all-rounder visually, but I know that for me 73 HTA is getting to be steeper than I like. If it's stable enough for you, I'd continue to rock that, personally.  If you're feeling the want for something more stable, what about the upcoming batch of Hillbornes?  Hopefully they'll be canti, and then you'll be able to fit the 47c and to me, that's a pretty ideal all-rounder size. Among the multitude of great and versatile Rivendells over the years, I struggle to imagine any being more versatile than the Hillborne. 

[Steve Palincsar]

On 8/7/20 3:03 PM, Jason Fuller wrote:
> While I should take my own advice when I say this, I think the
> difference between 47c and 2.1" is almost all in one's head

The difference between 47 mm ( "47c" is fingernails screeching on a
blackboard) and 2.1" is a whopping 5.3mm.   5.3mm is more than the
difference between a 23mm tire and a 28mm tire; more than the difference
between a 28mm tire and a 32mm tire; more than the difference between a
38mm tire and a 42mm tire.  Those are non-trivial differences, and are
instantly noticeable when riding.   "Almost all in one's head?"  I doubt
it...


--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

[Jason Fuller]

That is some poor math there, Steve, and I don't see why you need to be so argumentative.  Comparing 23 and 28 is over 20% difference in width. The difference from 47mm to 52mm is about a 10% difference in width, and both are well into the "can handle any surface" size territory. "Whopping 5.3mm" is quite laughable in this case. I'm not saying you can't feel the difference necessarily, but two things are true: the difference between brands and models will have a much bigger impact than the small width difference, and you will be able to do all the same riding on either size.  

[Mark Roland]

Those are some excellent examples there, Steve. Thanks for doing the work!

I'm trying to eliminate bikes too. I kind of am, but they seem to be getting replaced with Rivendells. All of the Hillibike variety, which I feel is hard to come by anywhere else. I like the utility and the fun of the Clems.

With the extra dough from selling the Redwood, you could get a nice passle o' supple rubber:

 

44 Snoqualmie (file tread)

55 Antelope (file tread)

29 x 2.2" Fleecer Ridge (knobbie)

Or similar from other brands. Get a second wheelset for the Fleecers.

With a slight saddle adjustment, you can get a smidge more seat angle (really such a slight difference between 71.5 and 72 anyway.) Easily handles the 2.1" with fenders, drops. Really a vintage mtb drop bar conversion but way better, with longer stays and more stack. I've never ridden a Redwood, but I have ridden bikes with the same geometry and wheel size. In terms of versatility and fun, super hard to beat a Clem. When the kids are older and you're having a midlife crisis, you can order up a Roadeo.

[Philip Williamson]

Keep the Redwood.
47mm tires can take you just about anywhere.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[Reid Echols]

Keep them all, and buy a 66cm Toyo Atlantis to boot. Or if you want just one, the Atlantis is hard to beat.

Reid in Austin

[brendonoid]

I managed to fit 2.1 knobbies (smart sams) with fenders on a 58cm Appaloosa just to help out here.

[Andy Beichler]

What is the bottom bracket drop on your Redwood? Was that built before Rivendell started using 80 mm of drop for frames?  I have an 84 Paramount touring with 80mm of drop and have played with the idea of putting 650b on it.  I have never made any moves to make it happen due to the bb drop but if it is the same as a Redwood, I might actually look into it. 

[John H.]

Personally, I think you've got all the of the bases covered with the two frames you already own. That Redwood is super cool and even though it goes against your "a bike is just a bike" ethos, I think the fact that you've imbued some of your own personality and tweaked it to fit your needs better makes it a keeper (not to mention the rarity). With both of those frames you have a ton of flexibility (within reasonable bounds) to adapt to whatever riding you want to do now or might want to do in the future.

[David B]

I don't disagree with this in practice - and certainly 47mm is enough for trails - so I'm leaning towards trying out some semi-knobby 47mm 650b tires. This might be the first step and see which bike I prefer.

[David B]

The Clem certainly is the most versatile and I'd be more inclined to load up this one for camping trips vs the Redwood. I have 2.1" Thunderburts right now which are a pretty sweet spot, but lots of options.

[David B]

That might just be the ticket! Anyone have a 66cm Toyo Atlantis?

[David B]

Good to know! Thanks!

[David B]

78mm drop on the Redwood. Works fine with 47mm tires. Likely fine with 42mm and 170mm cranks. I wouldn't go with smaller tires than that though.

[David B]

In looking for Toyo or Waterford Atlantis geometries, I happened upon the geometry for the first version of the Clem Smith Jr, which I have.

Geometry-wise it's pretty much the same as the Appaloosa with a couple minor differences.

Pertinents below:

Clem (59cm first version)

HTA/STA - 71.5/71.5

Effective Top Tube - 64cm

Seat Tube - 59cm

Chainstays - 56cm

Appaloosa (60cm - current largest size)

HTA/STA - 72/71/5

Effective Top Tube - 64cm

Seat Tube - 60cm

Chainstays - 53.5cm

This now makes sense as to why my switch to drop bars on the Clem was easy and it rides comfortably with wide drops. And it has more tire clearance than the Appaloosa. So, Clem it is in the decision whether an Appaloosa would be worth the frame swap.

So, I guess now the real question is whether or not I sell my Redwood...

David

[Dave Johnston]

Somebody posted Atlantis geo comparisons earlier on ibob, so I am reposting.

I'm not sure 2.1 + fenders will always work on the front. Attached is a picture of a Big Ben 26"x2.15" under the Toyo fork, I can't remember the actual width, I think around 52mm, so there is just enough room for that combo. There is plenty of room in the back.

Also, I think knobbies and fenders are a bad idea as the knobs seem to pick up sticks easier into the fenders.

-Dave

[Dave Johnston]

oops forgot the Big Ben pic:

[William deRosset]

Dear David,

The least expensive thing to do is to double your money: fold it in half and put it back in your pocket, and you have two lovely bikes there. I'd suggest you resist the urge to shuffle bikes just 'cause.

If it is a vote, I'd go with the following process:

1. What bike that you currently own appeals most to you? Does it meet your current (not aprirational) uses for the bike?

2. Keep that one. 

3. Sell the other if you must. 

4. If you're curious about other bikes, get the object of interest and ride it enough to wear off the new bike glamour. This may take years if it is a really cool bike.

5. Iterate.

I do like the Redwood setup a lot. 

Best Regards,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

[William deRosset]

Dear Steve,

47 to 55-584 is is about  1.37X by area and 1.38X by volume. 

Compare to a 23mm to 28-622 tire 1.48X by area and 1.5X by volume. I definitely notice the difference between a 23 and a 28, and between a 28 and a 32 (using the same tire casing and adjusting the tire pressure as appropriate). 

You'll sure notice the difference if one is pumping up the tires for consistent drop. I find for road use that the tire pressure that works best for handling and riding out of the saddle etc tends to offset the change in very wide tires (I submit that 47-55mm tires on the road are very wide; your definitions may vary) and that the difference is not as prounounced above some threshold (for me it is the 38mm to 42-584 change or the 30mm to 35-622 differences).

Best Regards,

Will

Willliam M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

[William deRosset]

Hi, All,

I apologize for comparing a 47-584 to a 2.2" tire vs the 2.1" described. Maths is tricky!

47mm to 53-584 is about 1.27X by area, a little more than half the area difference between a 23 and a 28-622 tire area.

Best Regards,

Will

[Steve Palincsar]

Maths may be tricky but "half the area difference" isn't an imaginary number.

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[Philip Williamson]

I’m a maximalist. My custom go-many-places road bike has 58mm G-Ones. However, 45mm tires work the same everywhere I ride. I ride with people on 48mm tires on the same terrain, so it’s not just me. It’s like quartz vs marble countertops - the quartz is supposedly more durable and stain resistant, but in practice marble easily meets the threshold of “very” durable and “very” stain resistant. 48mm tires are “very” capable.

I do think we aren’t making the math nearly complicated enough, though. Rolling comfort depends on volume (cubic liters) and cornering adhesion depends on area (square millimeters). Further, we put lower PSI into wider tires, so the pumped up volume of the tire goes up at a shallower angle than the 1 bar volume each tire width would hold if it was a plastic tube.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[Reid Echols]

Philip is right, as usual. And then there’s also my newly-discovered awareness that a Clem will clear 2.6” tires! 

[masmojo]

I fully understand the desire to consolidate, but there's a reason you have a Redwood & a Clem in the first place & that reason is still valid. If you have the space & you don't need the money then I would stand pat & possibly tweak both bikes to further distinguish them from each other.
Seems pretty pointless to swap the Redwood for anything else if it can take 47mm tires, especially since the Clem can go far past that.
The Redwood seems like a good versatile bike good for most things while the Clem can be more offroad specific, with fatter tires. Between the two you've got just about everything covered. Especially if you find a road bike not really needed.

Another option is one bike with two sets of wheels. I have a Crust Bombora; one of the first things I realized about it was that: with smooth tires it excels at being a decent road bike and with chunkier knobbies it's great offroad. As a result I've got two sets of wheels for that bike! Another advantage of two wheel sets is being able to just change wheels if you have inflation issues (flats) 🤣

[Mark Roland]

This is what I suggested he do for the Clem, which is similar to the Bombora in terms of range-- a wheelset with some skinny 48mm Switchbacks for the pack training ride, then pop on the set with 2.6" knobbies for hitting the woods. Best to have rims with same width and brakes set up to open wide, but then good to go. If, as the subject line says, you truly want/need to get to one bike for the time being. Personally, for most on this list, I think that is an aspirational fantasy for some of us, but not likely to happen all that often. Everyone with only one bicycle please raise your hand....

[Andy Beichler]

Thanks a bunch.  I'll give it some more thought. 

[David B]

Pondering no more. Keeping both bikes, however this process relieved the 'preciousness' of the Redwood and I think I'm going to to get canti studs added for 650b. Then I'll really be set... for now.

David