Studs for Winter Riding?

[John Rinker]

Went for a ride in snow today and had a blast! I also slipped around a little bit as I tried to follow the packed snow of tire tracks. Got me thinking about studded tires. I've never ridden them before and know nothing about them. 

Do any of you fine folks with more experience in such matters than me have any recommendations for studded tires for my Hunq?

Cheers, John

[Ryan Frahm]

Hey John, glad you got out and had fun in the snow! 
Right now I am running the 45nrth Khama tires and they work really really well. Last season I had the Schwalbe Marathon version and they were great on ice but so so at best in the slush or any inches of snow built up. I love the confidence of the studs, much more enjoyable to ride. They do have so drag but overall I think it is well worth it. 

[Steven Sweedler]

John, for many winters I commuted to work with Nokia Hakkepelitas, 700 x 35. For more grip, riding on local lakes and snowmobike trails, we would use sheet metal screws on knobby mtb  tires, kind of noisy and slow on any bare pavement, but very secure on hard ice. 

Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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[John S]

This has also been my experience with the Schwalbe Marathon Winter Plus (700c x 40mm).  The studs grip very well on the ice, but if the packed snow/slush gets deep down enough that the tires don't sink though to the ice/pavement below, the studs have nothing to bite into, and one can lose traction.

[Josiah Anderson]

I use 700x35 Nokians on my winter commuter. They work pretty well 95% of the time, but today I was about at the limit – it snowed yesterday, thawed a bit and rained, cleared off and froze hard, and then dusted snow again, so we had loose powder on top of a sheet of pure ice. For conditions like that I have some 26x2.2 Nokian Extremes that seem to be more stud than tire, and they work spectacularly well on ice (though buzzy as heck on bare pavement), but I don't have them on a bike right now so I just rode the regular commuter carefully. Don't bother with any of the cheap Kendas etc that only have studs on the sides – they say you only need them for cornering but I've fallen while riding in more or less a straight line on them multiple times.

Josiah Anderson

Missoula, MT

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[John Rinker]

Thank you all for your replies. Just to clarify @frahm30, are those the 45N Kahva tires? I'm wondering about the fit of 2.25 with studs in my Hunq frame. Worked at a bike shop this summer and saw a bike with studs (sheet metal screws) that chewed into a frame! Ouch! 

In the case of studded tires, does a wider tire make a great deal of difference as far a traction goes?

Cheers, John

[Ryan Frahm]

Yes, sorry. I didn’t catch the auto correct! Mine are 27.5x2.1. The only others I used were right at 2”. So I can’t really say if wider helps. I can say that the more aggressive tread and studs have made a huge difference. They are about as loud as a car with studded tires though and my old set made very little noise. 

[J G]

Tires like the W106 700x35 Nokians work well for snow and ice on paths, however on rutted ice, they have no studs to pull you out.

Tires like the W240 700x40 Nokians are more aggressive with knobs, stud volume and stud placement.  You can ride these pretty much anywhere.

Schwalbe Marathon Winter and Ice Spiker Pros are great tires and worth a look.

As stated above, more aggressive tread and studs drive traction more than tire width.

I just bought some nice NOS Schwalbe 26x2.35" folding Ice Spiker Pros for my Riv Mtn/Expedition.

Justus,

Mpls, MN

[Will Boericke]

Longtime studded tire user for winter commuting.  They are great for on-road riding when you know there will be ice or patches of snow.  They really make no difference in packed snow on trails unless it's likght and you're digging through to the ground.  In that situation, volume makes a difference, but we're talking 4" tire vs. 50mm tire.  Studded tires are heavy.  I have two commuters so I don't have to ride them when roads are dry.  Easily 2mph slower and loud.

If you're planning on buying, I like Marathon winters, but for the usage you describe I think you want a wide studded mtb tire.  Not familiar with the offerings there.  

Will near Boston

[ascpgh]

I've used studded tires for my winter commuting for a while. They are definitely slower than your regular tires but when they are necessary speed matters less. As others have pointed out, winter weather and precipitation are like craft cocktails, there's endless variety and combinations to which no tire (or bike) will be the best answer. 

I have sets of both Schwalbe Marathon Winter Plus 700c x 40mm and Nokian Hakkepelitas, 700 x 35 for my commuter which is the given, I'm not building a winter commuter.  Both roll slowly on pavement but the Nokians more so because of rubber compounding (they smell) and more aggressive tread for churning through deeper snow or slush. The Schwalbes are a much more refined tire that would be satisfactory if left installed over a few weeks of on and off conditions of need since they are less of a pig when the pavement clears. The Nokians are definitely a more primitive product for better use in more specifically primitive conditions. 

Both are studded equally from the perspective of gained control over slick surfaces. Stud counts are not an equal comparison. Someone pointed out studs near the sidewalls...probably for marketing and retail point of sale impact. Studs work best when in near vertical line with your riding alignment to gravity on a surface that they can make a scratch or press into. You're not going to gain lean angles on your bicycle because of studs. Like Josiah pointed out, even going in a straight line (on studs) it is possible to lose bite and have a wheel slip out from under you. 

The best choice in wintery conditions is still your head and riding skill. Studded tires won't make 8" of fresh snow bow to your ability, nor will packed frozen or icy surfaces be crossed like you are on a cog railway . Every pedal stroke in declining conditions becomes what could upend you so your proprioception becomes more relevant to keeping moving. Winter riding reminds me that the worst part of any speed of bike wreck is the distance your head travels before meeting the ground. The fun of it is the mastery of the tools you have and to be able to ride in conditions and places that make others abandon the idea instantly. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Peter White]

Studs do nothing for you in snow. They only add weight and are noisy on pavement.  Studs are only useful on ice. For snow you need tall tread blocks.

That being said, in winter we tend to get snow with ice, so winter tires should have tall tread blacks and studs.

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Peter White

[Ryan Frahm]

Well said, Peter.

[Takashi]

I agree with Peter; if you don't know whether there's ice below snow or not, you'd better use studded tires.

Here's a photo from Dec 2020, near Nigorigo Pass (elev. 1700m).

My Hunqapillar equipped with Schwalbe Ice Spiker Pro 29 x 2.25.

They're the fattest tires that can be put on this bike (front derailleur frequently rubbed the rear tire).

I think Waterford-built Hunq has a slightly wider clearance than mine.

I also have Hakkapeliitta (700c x 40).

I haven's measured time, but I have a feeling that both tires are equally slow.

Both work equally well on ice, but when there are ice, slosh, rutted ice, rutted snow etc, it's easier to ride with fatter tires (Ice Spiker Pro).

Except when you ride on pavement; they sound like the end of the world is coming.

Takashi

2023年12月4日月曜日 23:10:47 UTC+9 fra...@gmail.com:

[John Rinker]

Thank you all for chiming in with your experiences and advice. Peter, I appreciate your thoughts about spikes in deeper snow (we've a lot of that out here!) and the need for tall knobs. Takashi, your thought on being prepared for ice under the snow is a sound one. And, Andy, I agree that while the right equipment is helpful, nothing is a substitute for careful, skilled riding in such conditions. 

I'll look more closely at the 45N Kahvas and the Schwalbe Ice Spikers, but a cursory glance makes it seem the Ice Spikers have taller knobs. 

Takashi, your warning that these tires 'sound like the end of the world is coming' made me laugh out loud. Luckily most of my riding is on gravel roads and trails out here.

Cheers, John

[Eric Grim]

I have a pair of Schwalbe Marathon Winter Plus studded tires, 700c x 35mm.  This thread reminds me, it's time to mount them.  Whenever I ride with them, conditions are varied: rutted ice, slush, packed snow, and snow.  The studded tires make it possible, but for me, the handling is kind of squirrely.  Fun, but squirrely.

Eric Grim

Spokane

[Patrick Moore]

Forget studs. What you want for winter riding is a British Racing Tricycle. I owned a nicely restored early '80s Ken Rogers for 18 or 24 months and had great fun riding it over a winter with more than average snow -- high desert ABQ, NM where it often snows but rarely stays. I recall how exhilarating it was to see a snow or ice patch in the distance and, instead of slowing down, being able to speed up. (You can also stop dead on a hill without unclipping or putting your foot down,)

OTOH, the trike had left-hand-drive (other wheel just coasted) for British traffic so that in Britain the driving wheel pushed the trike against the slope of the road crown. Riding on the righthand side of the road was not a problem on the flats, but on steep hills where you had to stand and honk, the drive wheel would push you toward the curb (kerb) and you had to lean sharp left to keep the trike going straight. Still, I found this only a minor annoyance. 

Image below for illustrative purposes only; that is not my erstwhile Ken Rogers.

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 4:11 AM Will Boericke <wboe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Longtime studded tire user for winter commuting.  They are great for on-road riding when you know there will be ice or patches of snow.  They really make no difference in packed snow on trails unless it's likght and you're digging through to the ground.  In that situation, volume makes a difference, but we're talking 4" tire vs. 50mm tire.  Studded tires are heavy.  I have two commuters so I don't have to ride them when roads are dry.  Easily 2mph slower and loud.

If you're planning on buying, I like Marathon winters, but for the usage you describe I think you want a wide studded mtb tire.  Not familiar with the offerings there.  

Will near Boston

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Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[Will Boericke]

Hahahaha, a wonderfully bobish solution to the ice problem.   N+1

Will 

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[John Rinker]

Ha, Partick! Who needs studs when you're riding around on that tricycle? You ARE the stud!

Cheers, John

[Patrick Moore]

To be sure, most of my riding was on dry pavement, but the bit of snow riding I was able to do that winter -- 2010? 2011? -- was great fun.

This was the trike -- I'd lost the photo but found it again in the back pages of the "Trikes and (odd) Bikes" blog.

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[Ted Durant]

On Sunday, December 3, 2023 at 7:34:32 PM UTC-6 John Rinker wrote:

Do any of you fine folks with more experience in such matters than me have any recommendations for studded tires for my Hunq?

As Andy said, winter conditions are like craft cocktails! And, as a result, what works in some conditions might be terrible in others. For me, those conditions regularly varied between my morning ride to work and my evening ride home. Others have covered the broad range, but I will add one point. I found that 2.1" Marathon tires were deadly in slush. They had just enough float that at any speed above walking pace the front would float up off the underlying pavement or ice/snow pack, and the traction then would match the mythical frictionless surface of physics.  With all the salt that is used on roads here, temps can be pretty well below freezing and we still have mostly slush, so I found that skinnier tires worked much better. Unfortunately, that means that when dealing with frozen ruts, there's a lot more bone shaking going on. Nokian W106 (700x35) on my Quickbeam were the best combo I ever used for commuting in Milwaukee.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee WI USA

[Marc Irwin]

I've used both Nokian  and Schwalbe Marathon Winter on my Hunq.  I prefer the Schwalbe.

Marc

On Sunday, December 3, 2023 at 8:34:32 PM UTC-5 John Rinker wrote:

[John Rinker]

Thanks again to all of you experienced winter riders for the illuminating discussion and worthy suggestions. One significant factor that I don't contend with anymore is the commute to work, so my winter riding is strictly for pleasure. Since most of my riding is on country gravel roads I also don't have to suffer pavement and, in Takashi's words, 'the sound like the end of the world is coming'. 

I've been riding with my very low-tread WTB Nano's in the packed snow and relying on the handling skills honed from over 50 years of riding. So far so good. I don't ride super fast in these conditions and whenever one of my tires tries to slip out from under me I'm able to correct and hold it together, and this always makes me laugh as though I've cheated death or something. 

Again, I am a believer that the right equipment makes a world of difference, but I also really appreciate Andy's reminder that there is no substitute for skillful bike handling. Combining the two is certainly the sweet spot, but for the time being, I think I will forgo the Schwalbe Ice Spikers and focus on mindful riding and practicing my winter riding skills with what I've got. 

I'll let you know if I end up knocking out my front teeth. 

Cheers, John

[Mackenzy Albright]

John - Ive ridden extensively with both studs and regular tires through severe Minnesota and Alberta winters. Back when winters had a fair amount of temperature consistency I found fat MTB tires were excellent. I loved when the cold weather hit -19*c and packed snow becomes hard and squeaky. It's a joy to ride. Most trail riding was perfectly adequate if not excellent. 

With the winters these days heavy freeze thaw as well as increased cycling traffic on winter trails I found things ice up much more often.  I was also commuting extensively and found the 45N kahvas to be excellent and worth the money. 

Now that I'm in Vancouver I don't bother with anything but fenders. If it's slippery I take the bus!

[Julian Westerhout]

I'm impressed and/or depressed at the sight of lovely Hunqs being ridden in snow and ice.  In the middle of Illinois we get snow and ice but always accompanied by lots of road salt. I commute in those conditions on an old Schwinn High Sierra set up as a 1 x 6 with Marathon winter tires with studs -- and stop only when I have far better traction than the cars (that's when i fear being squashed by a sliding SUV- on those rare days I'll take the bus).   The horrible road salts (and my twice-a-season cleaning of the old Schwinn)  are slowly eating the Schwinn alive , but it is sacrificial, and my Rivs are not. I envy those of you who live in climes with little or no salt on the roads -- I remember fondly the winters in SW Colorado in the 1990s when I lived there -- no salt, only cinders in the corners. 

Julian Westerhout

Waiting for winter to actually arrive this year in Bloomington, IL 

[Will Boericke]

+1.  You should see the state of the Raleigh (Carleton) Gran Prix that wears the studs in my stable.  Lots o' rust.  Sacrificial frame.

Will near Boston 

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[David Pulsipher]

I've used Schwalbe Winter Marathons for over a decade, and love them.

[John Rinker]

MacKenzy, Julian, Will and David,

Thank you for your further input. It's great to know that of the many choices there are for studded tires, it seems it would be hard to go wrong. Thanks. 

Julian, regarding the salted roads, I do believe out here they are lightly salted, and each grain is lovingly hand-selected from an organic, free-range environment. So, it's the good salt! Ha! Actually, I don't think our roads are overly salted and I'm quite sure our gravel roads where I spend most of my time in the winter are not at all salted. That being said, I do tend to avoid riding when the roads are wet and slushy. I'd hate to think that my bike is being eaten away by salt.

Cheers, John