Tubing between Clem H, Atlantis

[Jason Fuller]

Anyone have experience between the Clem H and the MIT Atlantis frames in terms of the feel and weight of the tubing, and the differences in how they ride?  I am shorter, at 5'8", and ride a 45cm Clem H that fits pretty well, if a touch small.  I have been daydreaming about the 50cm Atlantis frames with 26" wheels that are in the 'Garage Sale' section of the website (3 left!) because everything from my Clem would bolt right up. 

However, I also recognize that it's a lot of money to buy a bike that's basically a fancier version of what I have - the ETT measurement is the same, the rear end is a bit longer and the top tube is a bit higher (better aesthetic fit for me, but the touch points would hardly move at all, so really the same fit). Plus I would probably worry about it more. As such, I always ponder it for a short bit then put it out of my mind. 

I am curious though if the assumption that it would ride similar to the Clem (or at least, not different enough to be able to justify the expense) is fully sound. I think it is, but maybe I'm wrong. I use this bike for commuting, errands, shorter rides with friends, but also occasionally for loading up with more stuff than my Hillborne can reasonably carry (ie multi day camping trips).  I find the Clem to be quite heavy-duty and very stiff, moreso than I'd prefer, but it can do whatever I need it to. 

Thanks!
Jason in Vancouver BC 

[LBleriot]

I have both. I kinda think they’re two sides of the same coin.  I use the Clem for tooling around town and on local trails with upright bars and Cazadero tires.  I use the Atlantis for longer, chill rides with drop bars and RH tires.  Both are amazingly comfortable and fun. I can’t ride upright bars for more than hour or so before my wrists aches.  I know I’m missing something technical, but they seem like very similar frames/geometry.  

[Jason Fuller]

LBleriot, thanks for the response!  That helps ease my mind.  I think no matter what, I ought not buy the Atlantis, but this helps me rest easier. I've been quickening my Clem a bit, with Rene Herse tires now, next logical step is a lighter wheelset but I want to be confident before making that investment. 

Cheers, 

Jason 

[Drw]

I don’t have any current specifics, but I do know the the latest iteration of musa atlanti/hunqs had straight gauge tubing, and the only differences were at the fork/stays (this info came direct from riv). It would be my assumption that both mit atlanti and Clem’s (Being a budget hunqapillar) are also both straight gauge in the same way.

As musa Atlantis owner and toyo Atlantis Former owner/current keeper, the toyo is definitely lighter. The musa feels more like my wife’s Clem, which is tiny, so I can’t really do a ride comparison.

All this to say, I think the sam, especially now with canti mounts, is really the most do everything bike. Every time they announce a new round I consider selling 2 “nicer” bikes and having the sam do it all.

[Jason Fuller]

Good info, cheers.  I hear you on the Hillborne, I love mine so much I would be tempted to buy a second :D  The Clem's a good bike, but it's not magic.  The Sam is! 

[Bones]

I do not own an Atlantis but I do have a Clem H (59), Appaloosa (62) and Sam (62). You already know the answer but its all in the setup. My Clem is a stripped down trail bike. It has Cliffhangers (tubeless) with 2.25 Thunderburts, bullmoose bars, and no racks. It does not feel any heavier than my Sam, and it feels just as fast. I have tossed around the idea of trading my Clem H for an Atlantis but I think the truth is that they are functionally equivalent, one is just fancier. I imagine that if you set up an Atlantis with the same components that you have on your Clem now, it would feel about the same. I think some component changes are the best first step. If you want it to be much lighter/quicker, you will need to remove all the parts that make it a useful utility bike though. I think my Appaloosa has the same role your Clem has now, and it works great for that.

Bones

[Collin A]

I had this same question like 3 months ago, but eventually (thanks to the group discussions here) avoided pulling the trigger...well that and the current economic situation...

However, what I did to appease myself was to lighten my Clem as much as possible without spending any money. I removed the racks, fenders and bags, switched the more burly components (rear derailleur with XTR, aluminum handlebar) and picked the lightest tires I had in my ever increasing tire box and set them up tubeless on my wheels. The result was a magnificent ride that I would HIGHLY recommend trying yourself to see what the clem is really capable and how it feels when "unburdened" by the typical accoutrements of a commuter bike. Photo for reference:

I didn't weigh it, but based on Maths, I probably took off 4-5 Kg. When we finally have a response to COVID in the US and ever start commuting to work again, I may just end up getting a beater commuter bike to keep the Clem as a full-time lightweight (ha!) trailbike. 

Cheers,

Collin, it'll be 40C today, in Sacramento

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

The best tubing is no tubing. It's inarguably the flexiest and most resilient. And with this in mind, there's a bike out there that is perfect for you Jason. So, to hopefully completely derail any other plans you might have, please look for one of those smaller Rosco Bubbe mountain frames that do absolutely everything you want it to do. It can haul massive loads up front, and the tig welds, while perfect, don't draw attention at the trailhead.
Plus it shreds.

Happy rolling
-Kai

[Mark Roland]

I was going to say, wait for the Platypus, a mixte with cantis. That will be different enough to rationalize! In regards to lightening up, instead of removing the fenders, racks, lighting, kickstand, panniers, and streamers from my Clem L, I bought a Susie. It will be my more or less dedicated trail bike, no fenders etc. Though still not terribly light with klunker bars and fairly heavy duty RynoLite XL rims and big knobbies. (Light is relative obviously, especially if you are in RivWorld!;^)

[Jason Fuller]

Ha, thanks all. If we're going to delve into what Riv's I want to wait for, it's actually the Charlie H Gallup.  I am reasonably sure I want one.  In fact, I just sold my XO-1 to a friend and took a set of 700x38 Gravel Kings in partial trade with the CHG in mind.  

[Joe Bernard]

Jason, I think your problem - other than you just like light, sporty-feelimg bikes like that XO - is your Clem is more than a bit too small. I'm 5'-6" and had a Clem L 45cm which was a BIT small for me, and only really worked because I needed the bars close and way upright (arthritis). At 5'-8" I don't see any way you're riding that bike without feeling cramped and awkward, not to mention the tighter triangle on that size H model is going to be WAY stiff. In Clems I'm sure you need a 52 but to heck with that, get a Gallup!

[Jason Fuller]

Heya Joe!  I think you're pretty bang on that I'm having a hard time being fully happy with the Clem due to fit. The thing is, the 45cm has a 575mm ETT which is actually pretty reasonable for my height based on setup (not full swept bars, but the ~45 degree bar I'm running on it), but otherwise it's quite small.  And yes, the overall compactness of the 45 Clem H paired with the tubing renders it a very stiff bike indeed.  But since Riv has decided to only put out three sizes which could fit a football field between each, I went with the 45 on clearance because I can't even stand over a 52 without being on my tiptoes. 

I'll certainly enjoy the Clem over winter for now but will put my extra beans in a jar for the eventual Gallup pre-sale! Funny enough, the geo of the engineering drawing of the Gallup from an old Blahg is totally my size, and looks good from what's shown in the image. 

[Reid Echols]

Hey Jason, I had a similar problem on the higher end of the size spectrum: 65 H was too big for comfort offroad, 59 too small. My solution (and on I think that would work well for you, if you ever want a rough stuff bike) was the Clem L in “my” size (64). All the standover, but enough front center to ride confidently offroad (I think all things being equal that a larger bike nearly always rides better offroad for that reason). My latest Clem nails it in the fun/fast/sturdy pie chart.

Pic: https://www.instagram.com/p/CDwIMqJlTC4/?igshid=1wr0pidwn2ld1

Reid in Austin

[Jason Fuller]

Cheers Reid, that was the solution for Zed too, since the L's are longer for their size, but in Zed's case he's actually almost exactly the same height / PBH as me and had the same issue between 45 and 52. The L probably has more compliance too with the reduced stiffness of the design, I'm betting. 

What this thread unintentionally highlighted for me is that most are using their Clem as an analog mountain bike (as it's advertised to be!) but that's not what I use mine for generally. I have a dedicated mountain bike already, and this is more of a commuter build (which, in the past, I'd use a 90's mtb for so this seemed like a natural extension). Occasionally I do ride trails on it, and occasionally I load it to the gills and it's handy to have the frame stiffness in those times.. but 90% of the time I'm riding it around as a commuter / errand bike. 

So in light of that, Platypus or Charlie H does seem a better fit. I am really analyzing these things right now because my next investment was going to be a new wheelset with dynamo setup, but being that the Clem is 26", it would greatly reduce my replacement options if I wanted to take them along. 

I'm also pretty curious about the next round of Rosco Bubbe that were hinted at when Riv received a bunch of extra 650B Susie/Gus forks in error.  

[Joe Bernard]

I don't recommend pumping more money into a frame you're not really into. Gallup and Platypus are both going to be livelier bikes with plenty of standover in sizes you'll fit, you can grab one of those and that Clem will sell in a heartbeat to someone who will fit it well and find it amazingly useful.

[Jason Fuller]

Cheers Joe. I was just pouring over the CHG! prototype geometry below, which happens to be my size, and the numbers are just perfect on paper for me - I was weary of 700c high volume tires because in my size, that generally means huge toe overlap, but look at that 636.5mm front center! That's a full 30mm longer than the FC on my Hillborne, meaning even less overlap for the same size tires in 700c.  And based on the wheelbase measurement, the rear end is around 50cm.  

I realize all these numbers are subject to change but I hope they don't much, I wouldn't change a thing from this drawing!