Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Joe Bernard]

Somebody had a change of heart, somebody else should buy it!*

*The missing binder bolt signals to me that this frame needs threads chased and the derailleur hanger checked/straightened, I kinda wish Riv wasn't selling them to folks this way but I guess it speeds up the process of getting frames sold and shipped. 

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/bik/d/petaluma-new-rivendell-roadini-61cm/7533355157.html

[Matt Beecher]

I also think it is sad that they are not doing this prep. I would have no confidence in my LBS doing that well, which would make me second guess whether to get another Riv.  I'm hoping that some amount of pleading will get them to reconsider this, if I am ever interested in buying another new Riv. 

[Ryan Frahm]

Extremely sad if you can’t trust your LBS with such an easy job. Might be worth just getting the tools and doing it yourself. Or look for the LBS that looks so rundown nobody would think to go, they usually have the skill to do anything on a steel frame. 

[Piaw Na]

When I picked up my Roadini they'd already installed a seatpost binder bolt and aligned the frame. But I picked it up in person to avoid them having to rebox it.

[Doug H.]

There are lots of folks on this list who I'm sure could prep a frameset but I wouldn't buy one unprepped. Speaking of changes of heart, I'm on the lookout for a 55 Rosco Platy owner with buyer's regret. It happens.

Doug

[Joe Bernard]

Doug, 

Keep an eye out for the Mermaid 55cm Proto Rosco Platy at Riv, it's going to go up on the block one of these days. There was a time when I may have grabbed it myself but I'm good with my custom now..YOU buy it! 

[lconley]

I bought the hanger alignment tool several years back - a great investment. Bikes get knocked around over the years. A lot of my bikes needed alignment. Especially important on bikes with indexed shifting.

The derailleur tap also helped with new frames - the hanger is always full of paint.

I used to feel bad about not using the LBS, but not any more. These guys (why no women?), some of whom are half the age of of my older bikes, are always trying to sell me on something that I don't want or need, like tubeless. If you have 25+ bikes, no way I want to add higher maintenance items to my bikes to solve a problem that I don't have - I have no idea what a pinch flat is. They don't carry even the simplest of items, I went to 4 shops and none of them had a seatpost binder bolt - evidently all new bike use clamps.

Laing

[Matt Beecher]

My problem is that the town was engulfed relatively recently by the Chicago suburbs.  It probably would not have supported a LBS in the past, so this one opened maybe 20 years ago(guessing).  They don't seem to appreciate well made steel bikes, catering to a lot of CF and aluminum.  I would not expect that they would have the taps needed.  

I suspect they also think I am weird, referring once to me as a "tinkerer".  I assume it is because of some of the relative oddities I come in with, from 1940's/1950's bikes, to Rivs with dynamo lighting.  They had never seen dynamo wiring before and were confused about them.  .    

Matt

[Doug H.]

Joe,

I will keep watching the garage sale section of the website!

Doug

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[James]

What led to the change of heart Doug?  I have been considering a Rosco Platty for a while (would ride a 60cm tho)

[Doug H.]

James,

No change of heart here just checking to see if recent buyers of the Rosco have had a change of heart. I did not jump on the sale immediately and poof they were gone.

Doug

[Brian Forsee]

I disagree with those that think its sad Riv is no longer doing this prep. Is it slightly less convenient if you are buying frame only? Sure. By previously providing this service I really think Riv was going above and beyond. Unpacking a frame, completing these items, and re-packing for shipping is time consuming. Straightening the hanger and possibly cleaning up some paint in some threads are items that will need to be completed on any painted steel frame with an integral hanger. Most competent bike shops will be able to complete these tasks for a reasonable fee, regardless of whether or not they swoon over your new frame the same way you do. Rivs and Riv style bike stuff is a niche market in the grand scheme of things. 

Brian F

[Joe Bernard]

To be clear cuz I'm the OP and this is going to reflect on me, I'm not sad about anything. My concern is we're going to end up with unprepped frames on the used market that unsuspecting buyers won't know need to be prepped. It wasn't the main point of my post, which is that there's a new Roadini frame out there people can buy. 

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2022 at 8:15 AM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

To be clear cuz I'm the OP and this is going to reflect on me, I'm not sad about anything. My concern is we're going to end up with unprepped frames on the used market that unsuspecting buyers won't know need to be prepped. It wasn't the main point of my post, which is that there's a new Roadini frame out there people can buy. 

I'm surprised at the number of people here who can't trust their LBS to prep a frame. Is it because the modern CF/AL frames don't need prepping? I certainly don't have a frame alignment table or a derailleur hanger straightener, much less the tool required to prep a headtube prior to installing headset and fork. It's been years since I carried a headset wrench while touring as well. But I recently had trouble with one of my kids' bikes not indexing correctly no matter what I did. Took it to the LBS and they diagnosed it as a bent hanger. They fixed it and then decided not to charge me since their credit card machine was broken. 

[Joe Bernard]

I don't even know where my LBS is, I work on my own bikes. I assume Riv is still prepping their frames for an extra fee, I would pay it. 

[J J]

I would happily pay extra for Riv to prep a frame. I have absolute confidence in their work. There are lots of bike shops in my area that I have gone to when I didn’t have the time, tools, or inclination to do work myself. I’m stunned by how consistently they can be counted on for sloppy work — or worse. 

The most recent example was a fender installation on a Wilbury on which we had just installed a NOS set of Paul Racers (the hard to find polished version). I told the shop that Rivendell has a detailed video showing fender installation and could they please check it out and follow Mark’s method. 

Long story as short as I can make it: the eager, wide-eyed mechanic who wanted to work on the bike because he “loves Rivendells”  did it his way, anyway. The fender hanger tab that bolts onto the brake hole on the fork was unevenly bent and rubbing against the headset as the handlebar moved back and forth. We took it back to have them fix it, and in full view of several employees, including the shop manager, the mechanic tried to bend the tab back using the Racer as leverage for his pliers. He did this despite my partner telling him “shouldn’t you take it off before you do that?” He totally ignored her, and in a second he put a gash into the the brake bridge. Now we’re not precious about nicks and scratches. But this was a deep gash on a brand new set of rare Racers, and it was horrible. It’s painful even recalling it. I regret that I didn’t intervene before he ruined it (though again, he ignored my partner, which could be another story for another thread about the contempt and condescension with which many LBS mechanics and sales people treat women). 

I think we have mythologized local bike shops. Sure, I’ve had some great experiences. But the proof of the pudding is always in the tasting, and recent experiences left me with extreme, long lasting  bitterness. Local shops have forgotten to reattach brake cables after a service, left the quick release skewers very loose, stripped threads, made adjustments worse, I could go on and on — basic stuff that should not happen and that have safety implications. It’s to the point that the only “local” shop I trust anymore is about 50 miles away, even though I have at least 5 shops within walking distance, a few blocks from where I live. I don’t want shops to use my bikes for training mechanics. It’s too unreliable. On top of that, the local shops’ labor rates are not less than Rivendell’s rates, and in my area, they are often more, adding insult to injury. For me it’s a no-brainer to pay Rivendell to do the work, pay extra for repacking, and so on. I don’t mean to rag on LBSs, though. I’m just sharing my actual experiences and thoughts. 

I suppose one good outcome of these crappy experiences is that it’s compelled me to invest in tools and put in time to learn skills. This forum has been a great educator, too. So thanks, forum!! I’m sorry this veered a lot from the original post topic. 

[Piaw Na]

Anyone can make mistakes. When we got my wife's Rivendell-assembled Cheviot a few years back, I ended up having to re-tighten the FD, and had to adjust the shifters several times. It's not a big deal. I'd be a lot less forgiving of frame prep failures. I'm a good enough mechanic that I can build wheels myself (and used to teach wheel-building workshops), but my definite preference is for parts and bikes that are "fire and forget". But I'm also blessed to have good mechanics at LBSes for times when I can't or don't have time to fix something myself. I still try to do work myself since frequently they're much more aggressive about replacing parts like brake pads too early than I am.

[J J]

Sorry, just noticed your note on this week-old thread, Piaw. Yes, I totally agree that anyone can make mistakes. I also think there is a big difference between a genuinely innocent mistake and negligence, recklessness, or incompetence. (Ignoring specific instructions that were in earshot of the entire shop is an unfortunate instance of negligence.)

 Where you draw the line is debatable and depends on circumstances. For me the big gash, scratches, and dings on brand new brakes, as shown in the attached pic, unequivocably cross the line. The mechanic attempted to bend the fender hanger tab with pliers while pushing off the brake bridge and arm, using them as leverage, as the entire shop looked on with shock, and despite the fact that he was asked to do it properly. It wouldn't have been as big a deal if the Racers were readily available (as they evidently will be again in a few months), but this shouldn't have happened regardless. 

   

[Joe Bernard]

That's appalling, I would have LOST it if someone did this to my (very expensive) Paul brakes. They owe you a new Racer. 

[Piaw Na]

Indeed. That's really appalling. I'm so glad my LBS is competent like that and would tell me if they can't actually do the work. T

[J J]

We lost it, Joe. In the immediate aftermath, a quiet hush descended over the entire shop because everyone was shocked by what happened. And then it was like, wtf?!? 

The shop's first response was an unsatisfying and defensive, "it was an honest mistake," and they would have been content to settle it with a mere apology. After a lot of negotiation, the shop agreed to reimburse for labor and to replace the brakes — but good luck finding polished (or any other finish) NOS Racers. It's been three months since it happened and I've heard nothing but crickets. So I was super pleased with Eric's message about Paul Component resuming Racer production.

It had taken me nine months to find the brakes — scouring the interwebs, cold calling dozens of bike shops all over the country, putting out WTB posts. Finally a set appeared in an eBay auction listing. I preempted the auction by offering the seller a (very) pretty penny for them. I wanted those brakes.

Now... I have not lost perspective. This ordeal was upsetting, but it was not an issue of grave existential importance. Still, these things matter to bike nerds and to nerds in the making.

Getting back to the original theme of this thread, I'll reiterate that if I had the option, I would gladly and enthusiastically pay Rivendell to do any frame prep, builds, etc. over any of my local bike shops, even if it meant waiting a while.

[ascpgh]

More saintly than I would have been if standing there. 

"Honest mistake" is the rationalization of a good samaritan not someone with access to tools holding themself out as a mechanic. What was described was a task in need of being done right by someone who didn't do so in the first place. Instead of acknowledging their corner-cutting, inadequate effort or skill by carefully doing it right the second time, they applied the same slapdash degree of "wrenching". I would have called them out and stopped things when pliers and a big screwdriver appeared. 

What do people like that intend to do with any time they save by doing work so poorly? 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[J J]

Thanks for your note, Andy. I agree 100 percent. 

My partner did intervene before the damage occurred, asking the mechanic to put the bike on a stand and take the wheel off. He ignored her.

“Honest mistake”. Ugh. 

[Ryan]

Yikes! I would be PISSED! That's inexcusable.

A few years ago I took in a set of wheels with Mavic 501 hubs with a couple of other pairs of wheels  for some truing to a local BS and when I picked them up, the rear wheel  Mavic QR skewer was inexplicably missing. Just...gone. Phoned said bike shop, and no... they couldn't find it. Offered a replacement skewer, and BTW , 501 skewers are not easy to find...although I have not checked recently, so I just used an old Campy skewer. 

No, I'm not cool with having that bike shop do more work for me

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

Are the Paul's brakes particularly hard to install yourself? One reason why I'm such an adamant adherent of the sidepull caliper is that it's impossible to install wrong. I sold my Heron touring bike with Paul's Neo Retros cantilever brakes in 2007 to a colleague of mine. She got another friend to help build the bike up. He started the evening saying to her, "Piaw has an irrational dislike of cantilever brakes." 4 hours later, he was swearing at them and saying, "Ok, maybe not so irrational..."

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[J J]

That sucks about the 501 skewers, Ryan. Awful. 

A local shop once serviced a bike (and did a “safety check”) and when I picked it up I noticed that the quick release skewer springs and adjusting nut were missing from the front wheel. They just pushed the skewer through the axle without clamping it down.

[Ryan]

Believe me...I was not best pleased, you may be sure

BTW, J J, I hope that you presented that bike shop with a bill for that rear brake you went to so much effort to find and they reimbursed you without demur. Those Paul Racers are not cheap. I see on my 2016 invoice for my mixte custom...assembled by Mark Abele (go with the best 😊) the Racers were 288.00. Mark's labor was 220.00 + 50.00 for fender installation , and in my opinion, worth every penny. I am more than happy to pay  top dollar for first-class work. On the other hand , the vanishing skewer probably speaks to not properly overseeing a junior mechanic's work , if I'm being charitable. I do know the shop's owner and he's a good guy who does a lot for cycling in the city, and I am reasonably sure that if I had been able to source a new rear skewer and showed him a receipt, he would have probably given me credit or cash, which would have been fine. Anyone can make a mistake; it's what the maker of the mistake does to remedy it that's important

[Corwin Zechar]

Here, here JJ! I agree completely. Having Mark do the build and set up my bikes is one of the main reasons I buy bikes from Rivendell. Mark raises wrenching on bikes to a very high form of art.

Regards,

Corwin

[J J]

Piaw, the installation in question was the fenders, not the Racer brakes, which are not too arduous to install. The damaged brake was a casualty of the mechanic ostensibly fixing a poor fender installation. And yes, installing fenders had seemed challenging and overly time consuming for me — that’s why I paid someone to do it on the Wilbury. 

But since that ordeal, I forced myself to actually install a new set of fenders on my Hunq to accommodate fatter tires. I’m happy to say that I now feel totally comfortable doing it (though they are still fussy and a pain to install, however easy Mark makes it look in the video. I must have watched it 10 times!).

Ryan, I have to give credit where it is due, and the shop owner, who works in a different city, was apologetic when he learned about what happened. He reached out to me and genuinely wanted to make things right. He committed to replacing the brakes. The challenge is actually finding new Racers, and so far none have appeared. (If anyone reading this has polished Racers they want to part with, please let me know!)

I told the owner that the mechanic seemed so enthusiastic about working on a Rivendell. The owner said, “and therein lies the problem. Sure, everyone will be bright eyed and bushy tailed about working on such a bike, but that does not mean they are qualified to do everything and anything on them.” I appreciated his forthrightness, but it raised the question of why the shop would assign the work to someone who wasn’t necessarily qualified to do it right. 

Corwin, thanks so much for your note. Your characterization of Mark’s work as high art is absolutely apropos. He’s also incredibly accessible and generous with his time, help, and advice (as is everyone I have ever interacted with at Rivendell).

Best wishes all. 

[Ryan]

I'm glad to hear the shop owner will make things right and I hope those polished Racers surface sometime soon. They are lovely looking brakes. But I wonder if the RH brakes would be an acceptable compromise? They do have the virtue of being available and if your current brakes are scratched, but still functionally fine, maybe you could sell them at a discounted price.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/product-category/components/brakes/ 

About Roadinis or any other current Riv frame offering...I know Will and co are selling them unprepped to move them and I didn't necessarily see prepping as an option , but it is available for a fee isn't it?

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

Oh yeah. I've never enjoyed either having fenders on the bike or installing them. One year while touring in Europe, I hit a bout of rain and went into a bike shop that sold these amazing clip-ons. They were so easy to install and remove and unlike traditional full fenders never make the scritch-scritch sound when riding off pavement when rocks get thrown onto them. Since then I've switched to using those. Later on, I found SKS clip-ons that work almost as well. I see that Rivendell has found similar fenders and will be selling them soon.

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