Advice Sought on Hubs and Rim Choice

[Steve Cole]

I'm building up a new-to-me MIT Atlantis.  My best guess is that this is my final build short of deciding to have a custom frame built for me, which is unlikely.  As a result, I'm willing to spend somewhat more on components that I otherwise would.  I've been thinking about the wheels I want and would be grateful for advice.  Are Velocity rims and Deore hubs more than sufficient -- in other words would I notice any difference in the short- or longer-term if I use more upscale hubs such as Phil Wood, Chris King, White Industries or Shimano XTR?  For rims, I've been thinking about using Velocity Atlas as I'll be riding on and off-road in the desert southwest.  Are there other rims I should consider?  Thanks for your input.

Steve Cole

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

For riding in the desert you might like the Cliffhanger for it's tubeless option, I think the Atlas doesn't do tubeless? That's assuming you're not going sub 40mm with your tires.
-Kai

[Steve Cole]

I considered Cliffhangers but Velocity specs them at 45-65 mm.  This seems to reduce my flexibility.  I was planning on using RH Snoqualmie Pass Endurance+ tires that are 44 mm.  If I wanted to go to a narrower tire, the Cliffhangers are not ideal.

[Pancake]

Rims: the Velocity Atlas is great but (1) is it not tubeless compatible and it's nice to have that option later even if you won't need it now. (2) The Atlas is also limited to "optimal" tire widths from 25-45mm (though many folks run wider tires without issues). 

The Cliffhanger is what I'm inclined toward for tubeless and wider tire compatibility (optimal 45-65mm but reports of it doing well with as narrow as 38mm tires).

Also consider the Velo Orange Voyager which is tubeless compatible but is a size between the Atlas and Cliffhanger for width, plus it's a nice silver color.

Hubs: loads of good options out there. XT and XTR mostly get you lower weight vs. LX or base Deore. Chris King is a costly option but apparently they last forever if you care for them, same for Phil Wood. Both also look great. But you'll be fine with Deore or LX hubs so long as a couple extra ounces doesn't bother you. 

You didn't mention spokes, but how many (basically either 32 or 36 depending on you big you are and your type of riding) and their size (strongly recommend DT Swiss Competition which are double butted 2-1.8-2mm [e.g., thinner in the middle for more flexibility while still very strong] or their Sapim equivalent) though straight gauge is fine too. 

It's a fun process getting wheels, enjoy. Check out UniversalCycles for their custom wheel builder options (I've only had one built by them, a dynamo 3N72 hub with Atlas rim and DT Competition spokes - it's still running true after 1,000+ miles of abuse on my commuter).

Abe

[Pancake]

I'm in the same boat for width because I'm also running Snoqualmie Pass tires on my Atlas rims currently - 44mm would be great for Cliffhangers but under 40mm is not "optimal" though others have reported success at 38mm. 

The Voyager from VO is the middle ground: 22mm internal width, 27 external; 38mm-61mm wide tires "optimal"; tubeless ready. About the same price, weight between the atlas and cliffhanger. But relatively new so not a lot of report on reliability over time (out since June 2019) though it's VO's "stock" rim on their complete bikes. 

[Clayton.sf]

Personally I would go with White industries MI5 rear hub laced to cliffhangers with Sapim Strong spokes in the rear with a wide body Schmidt generator hub laced to the same rim with the same spokes. 32h and 3 cross on both wheels.

Clayton Scott
HBG, CA

[Ed Carolipio]

Congrats on the bike.

On the rims, I've had really good luck with rims from Velocity, so IMO no real reason to look beyond their offerings (with exceptions of course, such as a killer deal on an alternate or no stock for size/drillings/color you want.)

On the hubs, if you choose the cup-and-cone end of the hub spectrum, I suggest stepping up to the XT from a Deore. The XT has a slightly better freehub and internals plus an extra seal, and the price difference relative to the cost of the wheelset is small. It's not worth stepping up to the XTR since it's just weight reduction to get to that tier.

There's a very distinct price step to the high end hubs, and those are a lifetime purchase - the frames will change but the hubs will stay the same. You'll get a stronger and prettier hub shell, maintenance free bearings that roll better than cup-and-cone ones and aren't as susceptible to dirt and grime, and a serviceable and stronger freehub that has a smaller engagement angle than the Shimano one.

If you're comfortable spending the money on the high end hubs, you won't regret it. If you have any doubts at all on shelling out that much money just for hubs, I suggest you pass and stick with the XT. IMO you won't regret that either: you won't have the mental weight of buyer's regret and the performance difference between a well kept XT hub and a high end hub is much, much closer than their difference in price.

--Ed C.

[Pancake]

Very nice picks Clayton! A bit pricy though:
$323 for MI5 hub
$275 for Schmidt hub
$180 for two cliffhanger rims
$57 for 64 Spain strong spokes
Plus build and shipping costs for some dream wheels.

I was looking at something that looks similar with Cliffhanger or Voyager rims, Shutter Precision or Shimano 3N72 dynamo, and DT or Spain double butted 2.0-1.8-2.0 spokes ... about $450 built.

[Ginz]

Remember that Phil wood is not going to be a reduction in weight!

[Mike Godwin]

Wheels I built for my Atlantis -rear hub is the trekking version of Shimano XT. Just like all the other XT hubs, but no disc flange. Something like 45 bucks new from fleabay. Front is SON 28 from SJS Cycles. That was pricey. Rims DT Swiss 540 TK. Eyelets, machined sidewalls, I think tubeless compatible, lighter than Atlas rims, but nice boxy cross section. Sapim 14-15-14 spokes 36 hole hole set up. I expect this wheelset to last a long time.

Mike SLO CA 

On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 9:54:38 AM UTC-7, Ginz wrote:

[Steve Cole]

Thanks to all for your insights.  While everyone notes that the high end hubs are bulletproof and potentially will last a lifetime, no one's really commented on ride quality and whether one should expect a difference between the XT say and the higher end ones.  I'm not a weight weenie so the extra ounces are not an issue for me.

Steve

[John Casteen]

Steve,

Good question.  My bikes are set up with the hubs you're asking about-- Deore XT on one, White Industries on another.  (My rims are different, so can't really comment there.)  I don't think you'll experience a difference in ride quality per se; they're all good.  But if you put on a lot of miles and/or ride in especially challenging conditions-- trail, wet, like that-- you'll spend less time off the bike servicing the higher-end hubs.  

On my own and other people's bikes used off-road, rears tend to wear more quickly than fronts.  If you're looking for a compromise, you could spend up on the rear and down on the front.  But if I were in your position and building up a lifer wheel set, I'd go for the Whites.  Mine (rear) has been terrific, and has been ridden hard.

John

[Clayton.sf]

He did mention he is willing to spend more. 

I suggest building your own wheels to save on labor and learn a valuable skill. It is not hard to do and you can get the tools for less than what a build will cost these days.

I recommend not using Shimano hubs in the rear; especially not the current XT version. I have had two of their recent XT freehubs seize up turning the bike into a fixed wheel. First time was coming down a hill. Only fast pedaling and quick reaction saved the bike and myself from incurring major damage. Never had an issue with White and Schmidt hubs. Paul and DT in 350 or 240 are fantastic too, but Paul does not make a rear cassette hub and DT no longer makes non-disc 135 hubs. Phil cassette hubs have had their share of issues so I'd pass on them unless you are building a single speed or fixed gear. The fixed/ss hubs they make are amazing.

Clayton Scott,

HBG, CA

[Brian Campbell]

This is a pretty good price on a set of White/ H-Son wheels 32/32

https://www.velomine.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=235_357&products_id=2368&zenid=57p1usqe5ad2csa55h9k1vl7d2

rear hub is more road oriented but wieght is a littless.

[Garth]

For your tire choices I'd go with a Velocity Quill., tubeless and 25-47mm tires.

All I can about hubs is the high end ones don't offer any guarantee over the "basic" yet reliable Deore/LX T610/T670hubs. The newer XT style(Aluminum axle ones) had some freehub failure issues in the past, but I surely hope it's been worked out by now but how to find this out you got me. Hence, I'd trust Deore/LX first.

For a custom build, I'd consider Prowheelbuilder if you want higher end hubs. By all accounts I've seen people are happy with their builds from them, and for full custom wheels they're much less than individual builders or building them yourself.

[Patrick Moore]

All: Has Clayton's experience been a common one? I ask because I recently had the rear wheel for the Matthews rebuilt with an XT hub, which I assume is the current model; I have no idea what the current model's designation is, and when it was introduced.

No hint of problems so far, but then I've not put many miles on it yet -- a few hundred. An entirely cursory Google-verb-transitive search found several problem conversations from 10 or more years ago, and only 1, from 2016, about the seizure problem.

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=108592

Clayton: Were yours 2016 models?

All: Is the current model the same one?

Patrick Moore, desperately hoping Clayton's hub was a total outlier, in ABQ, NM.

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 12:42 PM Clayton.sf <clayt...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

[Patrick Moore]

Also: I don't think that my (purchased 2019) XT hub has the aluminum axle.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Apparently: Any XT rear hub prior to the FH-M770 has 10x1.0 steel axle and 18x1/4" balls. 

It seems the newer XT rear hubs have an aluminum axle and smaller balls, and have had issues seizing up--I don't know if that has been resolved.

My wheels are all older XT or WI hubs.  Cliffhanger or quill would be what I would use now.  I previously used A23/synergy.

Good luck!

Toshi

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[Clayton.sf]

Bought my hub in 2014. Model was: Shimano FH-T780 XT Rear Hub (36H Rear, Silver)

Hope this helps. I did some research when it happened and there were a few other people having issues. 

I talked about this before on the bob list or rbw list and linked to some of the sources.

Best,

Clayton Scott

HBG, CA

[Clayton.sf]

Atlantis takes 135mm hubs unless you respace it.

Best,

Clayton Scott

HBG, CA

[Garth]

Checking on the XT hubs from here : https://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/hubs?MfgId=4&OLN=135.0 and looking up the diagrams it seems the aluminum axle versions are 770 and above. The issues seem related to the freehub and springs breaking, not the axle or bearing size. 

[Clayton.sf]

Mine failed at the freehub bearings. Twice!

CSHBGCA

[Will]

Riv is using these: Alex DM24 Rim with Shimano Deore Hub Wheelset. We have a set that came on an Appaloosa. They are also on the Clems. Very nice wheels. 

If you're are looking for something upscale, especially with a dyno... look here:

https://www.velocityusa.com/product/wheels

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks Clayton and the rest. I take it then that, perhaps, the problem has been fixed in the intervening 5 or so years. At any rate, I'm certainly experienced in riding fixed drivetrains.

I would think that an aluminum axle would be (1) silver in color and (2) fatter in diameter than a steel one. I did not notice -- and I would have done so, methinks -- a fat silver axle on my new wheel when I picked it up, played with it, and then installedit.

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[John McBurney]

I run Cliffhangers tubeless with Compass 44 front and 38 rear. No problems. 

Other options could include Pacenti Brevet for a traditional look and HED Belgium. 

John

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[tarik saleh]

I will point out that the new Alex adventurer 2 Rims are cheap and rim brake and tubeless compatible. I think $30-35 at your LBS.  I got a few in both 26" and 700C for rim brake and cruiser bikes that I am sick of getting goat head flats on, but have not built them up yet. Based on their similarity to the pre tubeless Alex adventurer rims, I think they will built up pretty straight and true.  Not light, maybe similar to cliffhangers though. Pretty wide. Very inexpensive compared to the Cliffhanger,  Quill or Brevet or other tubless wide rim brake rims.   Probably only black, or black with a silver machined brake track.  They come in 559, 584 and 622 (26", 650B, 700c)

Tarik

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Tarik Saleh
tas at tariksaleh dot com
in los alamos, NM, USA, po box 208, 87544
http://tariksaleh.com
Tarik Saleh Bike Club!: http://tariksaleh.com/tsbc

[Pancake]

Great find Tarik, thanks!

The Alex Adventure (sometimes called Adventurer) 2 rim is a great fit for the tire sizes we've been talking about, and at a lower cost it could save a bit to spend on nicer hubs or other bits. They're also lighter than the Cliffhangers (by 95g) and Atlas (by 50g) for those who're counting. I'll be looking for reviews but nothing comes up quickly. 

Details of the Alex Adventure 2:

Color Black with silver machined sidewalls

Tubeless Compatible / tubeless ready

Holes 32h or 36h 

Sizes 26" or 700c

Tire sizes: 28-50mm tire width range (great for all but the hillybike Rivs!) 

Outer width 26 mm

Inner width 21 mm

Overall height 17.8 mm

Weight 580g in 36h, 556g  in 32h (according to https://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/rim/400, but Alex claims 530g in 32h)

UniversalCycles has them - the wheelset I'm looking at (XT T780 hubs, DT Competition spokes, DT brass nipples) would be ~$270 shipped and built with this rims, great find!

TreefortBikes has some details (include the tire width size range: https://www.treefortbikes.com/Alex-Adventure-2-Rim-TRS-700c-w-Machined-Sidewall

Great find, thanks!

Abe

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

I don't have any White Industries or Chris King hubs, but I'd love some, especially considering I could ease off of the bell due to that lovely buzz coming off the freewheel. Not that I hate my bell, quite the opposite is true, but buzzzzzzzzzzz...  

..and bearings, awesome easy standard bearings.

-Kai

[Jeff B]

For what it's worth, I always value ease of service and parts availability with my hubs. All the hubs listed fit that category for simple maintenance, especially the sealed bearing ones such as the Phil, Chris & White. The bearings are readily available & most are a 6902. I think the Chris King hubs require special tools for bearing replacement although you can always tap the bearing out with punch and make your own press. Working in a shop for 10+ years, I have seen a few White hubs that refused to stay adjusted and would become loose after a few rides so they required constant attention. That being said, I've never owned a set. My nice hubs are DT Swiss 240's and they have always been maintenance free. Only hiccup with those is that you may ned a ring gear tool to remove the ring gear for bearing replacement. 

Shimano hubs have loose bearings, no matter how nice, so if you know how to clean, re-pack & adjust loose bearing hubs those can provide many years of service. 

The boutique hubs may have better/ quicker engagement of the freehub body, but don't get too hung up on that

I do not have experience with Atlas rims but an eyeleted rim is always a very good choice so I'd say you would have no issues.

It really comes down to how much you want to spend. I think Atlas rims with brass nipples, butted 2/1.8/2 spokes and higher lever Shimano hubs would be pretty bomb proof. Enjoy your building!

[AMAC]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but I found the tool on Benscycle.com helpful for getting a sense of the options and price:

https://www.benscycle.com/custom-wheel-builder/search

I second the VO Voyager as a great option just below the beefier Cliffhanger.

-Andrew

On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 9:47:09 AM UTC-7, Pancake wrote:

[James / Analog Cycles]

Bitex touring hubs are the best bang for the buck touring hub out there.  Big Enduro sealed bearings, rebuildable steel freehub, adjustable bearing preload... About half the cost of White.  I don't know why anyone would build a nice wheel without butted spokes.  Sapim force or race spokes go on even our most budget oriented wheel builds.  After multiple mud seasons, the bitex hubs we run on our personal bikes are still spinning smoothly.  Yearly tear downs reveal only the most minimal contamination.  The main difference in 'ride quality' is going to be engagement and ease of coasting.  Shimano FH bodies are not rebuildable, and have a relatively short service life in my experience (19 years building wheels).  Coasting with Shimano FH bodies is often sort of sticky, with the chain lagging and sagging when you go rapidly from pedaling to coasting.  That, plus the slow engagement, are all the 'ride quality' differences you are going to have between a nicer hub and a Shimano.  Bitex hubs use 48t engagement with 6 pairs of pawls.  White by contrast, uses 3 pawls, no pairs.  The White hubs are nice, and they look better.  That's the main draw, besides slightly lower weight.  

Re:  Rim widths.  If you don't care about Tubeless, the Atlas rim is fine, but get it with machined sidewalls for more consistent braking.  Really though, the Cliffhangers feel fine with 38mm tires even on really rough terrain, and why run a tire smaller than that ever?  Plus you can run tubeless, which for the desert, has gotta be helpful.  

For whatever it's worth, we stopped selling Atlas rims and Shimano hubs about 3 years ago.  Bitex touring hubs are that much better, as are cliffhangers.  A bit more scratch, but not a ton!

-James / Analog Cycles / Wheel builder 

[Spearo35]

Ill second the White industries/H+ son combo. Wheelset im rockin on my roadini and i highly recommend.

[Garth]

James, which Bitex models are you referring to as almost all of their J bend rear hubs are available in a 135mm QR axle ?  http://bitexhubs.com/htm/index.php

Any experience with a Velocity ATB hub, the base cartridge bearing one ? https://www.velocityusa.com/product/hubs/atb-rear-hub  It seems like an alternative to the Shimano ones and from what I've seen Velocity offers very good warranty service. 

 I noticed on a new Deore rear hub some sag and lag of the chain as you mention, leading to some chain suck which I've never experienced on the Bombadil using Sachs freehweels. 

[John McBurney]

Does anyone have experience with Velocity Wheels? I was thinking about an Atlas 700c set with a dynamo front and velocity rear hub. Do Velocity hubs offer preload adjustment? They are listed as hand built. For $590 seems like a good deal if they are well built. 

John

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[Tristan Roberton]

Chiming in as I'm also looking at building a wheelset in the near future and considering alternatives to Shimano. Does anyone have an opinion on Novatec hubs? They are readily available and the prices seem very reasonable. Searching through the archives people seemed to have a good opinion of them, curious if that's still the case.

Tristan in Toronto

[James / Analog Cycles]

Hi Garth, 

A few things: 

According to Velocity, there are no replacement FH bodies available for their hubs.  That right there knocks those outta contention for me.  What good is a hub if you can't service it?  It's like having a stick shift car you can't put a new clutch in.  

I import my hubs from the UK.  As far as I know (and I know very little about what other shops are doing!) we are the only ones who import them from the UK cause it's a PITA, not unlike Middleburn Cranks and Jtek stuff.  Not worth it for higher volume shops.  They are not listed on the Bitex site.  They only come in silver or black, 32 or 36 hole count.  

-james

[Garth]

 

    Thanks James , just before I came back here I was on the phone with Velocity about their standard MTB wheelset w/unpolished silver Cliffhangers and black ATB hubs. I asked about replacement FH bodies and yes, they do stock them for current hubs and try to stock them if a model changes suppliers. They're listed on the website too !  http://store.velocityusa.com/p/cassette-body/hubs_parts_cassette-bodies?pp=12

    I'm not sure if the Bitex hubs you are referring to but the UK Bitex website lists more than the US one. Yeah, one flat shipping rate of 60 pounds/about 75 USD, ouch !

https://bitexhubs.co.uk/product-category/mountain-bike-hubs/

https://bitexhubs.co.uk/product-category/road-hubs/

https://bitexhubs.co.uk/product/bx103r/    This one is available in 135mm QR and silver ! 

These guys sell some Bitex in the US, but all disc mtb hubs. https://www.bikehubstore.com/category-s/226.htm

[Kieran J]

That one looks pretty nice. Would look right at home on an all-silver/polished wheel.

KJ