(Large) Sackville Saddlebag without a Rack?

[Max Diener]

Hi all, posting this again after I realized the new view in Google groups was sending my posts into the void. Hopefully switching to old has fixed the problem!

I am really interested in buying a Sackville Baggabond (their current large) Saddlebag, but also really would like to run it on a bike with no rack. I currently have 2 bikes in my quiver--one is a way overloaded, over-fendered, over-racked cargo bike. The other is my "poor man's Rivendell", a 1986 Schwinn Cimarron that I am running fully stripped down--no racks, fenders, etc. It's just a fun cruising bike. 

I was drawn to the Sackville bags both for their aesthetic and because (in theory) they will allow me to keep this a rackless bike, which appeals to me as the yin to the yang of my overloaded cargo bike. The goal would be using the Sackville to commute with on fair weather days (13" MacBook Pro, lunch, light change of clothes), as well as any other misc uses it may have around town. Also, they look good :)

All of that being said, I have not yet come across anyone running one of these large bags without a rack. After speaking to Will at RBW, he told me that he would expect the bag to sag after some time, and so to size down, as right now I just barely meet the 13" gap between saddle loops and top of tires. I'm 6'1", 89cm PBH (somewhat shorter legs for my height), riding a 22" frame as they call it in their catalog. I've got a decent chunk of seatpost showing, but really don't see my saddle moving much higher!

Can anyone give some experience on running these rackless? I'd hoped that the hard bottom layer would prevent too much sagging, but maybe that's not the case? If I do need some support for the bag, I'd really love to run something like a Carradice Bagman support rather than a full blown rack, but again haven't come across a Large on one in searching posts. Any experience, thoughts, wisdom, stories, jokes...would be welcome. I want to make this work!

Last thought--in theory I could go for the HappiSack BUT--they don't have Olive in stock, which if I'm going to spend over $200 on a bag, I want it to be my preferred color, AND in the past, I have always regretted not buying the bigger bag, all else being equal.

Thanks!

Max

[Paul Richardson]

definitely not the best pic in the world, but here's evidence of my 67cm homer, sans rack, with a very saggy saddlebag.  it's an older model sackville large.  the 'hard bottom layer' is the same material as a yardsign and, in my experience, doesn't do too much to prevent sagging with a genuinely heavy load.  (you could of course put whatever bottom layer in that you want).  that being said, for short distances i can cram probably 30 pounds of groceries in this thing and feel reasonably okay riding a home, and have also done a tent-less one night campout and fit all the gear i needed for 60 miles in there.  

hope this helps.

paul

takoma park, md.

[Max Diener]

Hey Paul, that's super helpful! Thanks for the report and the pic. Do you have a guesstimate on distance between top of tire and saddle loops?

[Paul Richardson]

just measured.  got 15".

[Lyman Labry]

I think I’ve seen somewhere in their blog that you could use a stick and strap arrangement to help support the bag.  On the other hand, the Erlen rack is a more elegant solution.

On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:08 AM Paul Richardson <pjrich...@gmail.com> wrote:

just measured.  got 15".

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[Max Diener]

@tirebiter - yes, I've seen the same thing re: a stick, though I have had a hard time conceptualizing what that would look like in practice. Seeing Paul's pic helps me to envision it. I do wonder if it would prematurely stretch the bag out if done regularly...

Regarding the Erlen rack, maybe you can help me understand something. If I'm reading their product info correctly, it allows for a bag of up to 7" to rest on it before that bag would be hitting the seat. How would you fit the Baggabond in there without seat interference?

On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 11:26:41 AM UTC-6, Tirebiter ATX wrote:

I think I’ve seen somewhere in their blog that you could use a stick and strap arrangement to help support the bag.  On the other hand, the Erlen rack is a more elegant solution.

On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:08 AM Paul Richardson <pjrich...@gmail.com> wrote:

just measured.  got 15".

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[Max Diener]

A pic of the above referenced 7", in case that clarifies my question

[Lyman Labry]

Yes. The Baggabond may be too large for the Erlen and maybe too heavy for what its designed for.  Just a thought.  

Back to the stick.  It’s kind of an “on the fly” approach.  But maybe a piece of black bamboo and contrasting cord would be more elegant and appear more purposeful.

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[Joe Bernard]

I've tried several times with various Sackvilles to make "not an inch to spare" work on rackless fenderless bikes and always discover the same thing: Works great unloaded, go to the store and buy some stuff, load bag, ride home with it dragging on the tire. You're probably going to need a rack

[Max Diener]

Gotcha--thanks. I asked because I do like the way those look, not quite a full on rack, so was curious if I could make it work.

Interesting thought on the stick--I'll have to think on that!

[Joe Bernard]

Hey Max, if you can live with gray in a brand new Happisack for less than a brand new price, gimme a holler. I've never used the dang thing and I don't see that changing this year so maybe you can. Check me at:

joeremi62 gmail com
or text 415 786 4623

[Hetchins52]

If you'd settle for the previous generation large SaddleSack, in Olive (!), I have a barely used one. I don't commute anymore and have a grocery store in sight of my house. If I go to Trader Joe's, I use a medium Saddle Sack (thanks to Joe!) and pannier(s) if need be.

Let me know if you are interested! (And, note that you get two more pockets AND a detachable pouch than with the current model.)

You probably don't want to combine a Sackville of either generation or size, with the Carradice supports. The deeper Expedition model, like the Sport, has an upturned end and it doesn't play well with the flat bottom of the Sackvilles. The Carradice bags don't have flat bottoms.

The Erlen shape would be better but it would be forced to carry all the weight and movement of your load because it is not dropped low enough to put weight on the saddle loops of such a tall bag.

The Nitto bag supports do look less "racklike" when the struts are connected to the seat stays of your bike....

How about a Nitto R-10?

https://www.benscycle.com/nitto-r10-rear-rack/rear_mount_rack_nitto__870-801-11/product

David Lipsky

Berkeley, CA

PS. I also have a never used Carradice Expedition QR if anyone has an interest.... I sold the Carradice Super C bag I bought it for and as above, the Sackvilles won't sit nicely on it.

On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 7:42:53 AM UTC-7, Max Diener wrote:

I am really interested in buying a Sackville Baggabond (their current large) Saddlebag, but also really would like to run it on a bike with no rack.

.... 

[Patrick Moore]

Not a Bagabond, nor even a Large, but a Medium Saddlesack. The bike is the 2003 Riv the frame etc of which I am now selling, which has a 58 c-c frame and had ~25" tall wheels (559 X 32 mm tires -- the 700C equivalent would have been 2" taller), and there was just barely enough room -- 2-3 cm -- between bottom of loaded bag and top of tire. With a 700C wheel, this would have been -- to quote Ralph Wiggums -- unpossible. Still, the Medium worked well stuffed as full as possible with weighty groceries.

If you want to use a large saddlebag of some sort without a rack on a smaller-than-giant frame, you might consider the Carradice Super C Slim and the SQR ("seatpost quick release) seatpost bracket, weight limit 10 kg, and capacity 16 litres. Not nearly as big as the Bagabond Large, but designed to make the most of small gaps between tall tires and low saddles. Here is mine over 29.6" tall tire, and this before I installed the fenders. Ample clearance even with 80 mm wide fender.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Max Diener]

Thanks for all of the replies here; this is a very helpful community. 

I tend to agree the Nitto rack could make a great solution--I just don't know that I'm trying to spend that kind of money right now!

Now I find myself in a pickle because I could have sworn that I measured 13" between top of tire and saddle loops when I was last with my bike, but I'm currently on an somewhat extended vacation to in laws and can't confirm because the bike in question is not with me. Something about the 13" number was nagging at me, so I started to do some napkin math:

I am (about to) run Rat Trap Pass tires, which I read have an outer diameter when inflated of 67.5cm, so let's round that up to 68cm, and the frame has virtually zero BB drop. If I take half of that value, 34cm, as the starting height for my crank center and use RBW's Saddle Height of 78cm (with their formula based on my PBH of 89cm--which I think is close to how my bike is set up), I land at the saddle being roughly 112cm over the ground. This would give me a gap between seat loops (112cm) and tire (68cm) of 44cm, or 17in...much more substantial than I originally was remembering.

Anyone care to poke a hole in that math? I feel like a crazy person writing that all out. 

[Max Diener]

Whoops. Totally forgot to factor in that the saddle height is at a 70 degree angle. That puts me much closer to 12" between saddle and tire with my napkin math and if I'm remembering sohcahtoa right...

[Patrick Moore]

More about the Carradice SQR system: I works well to hold regular (and not just the purpose-designed Super C Slim) transverse saddlebags higher than the rear of the saddle (tho' your have to be aware that you'll need to lift your leg higher when you swing it over the saddle, in case that is a problem). I'd guess you get up to 3" of additional lift over the tire compared to strapping it to Brooks slots -- note of course that the bag-holding device is far more vertical than that built in to the Super C Slim. I've used it with the Camper and the Nelson and the Junior to hold the top of the bag above the rear of the saddle. However, I'm not sure if it works well with the flatter, more horizontal Rivendell design. Perhaps others can address this?

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[Max Diener]

Thanks Patrick

Well, I realized my calculator was in radian mode instead of degrees. I think I have roughly 15" of clearance between saddle and tire... And I'm glad I'm not in high school geometry any more 😬

[Mackenzy Albright]

Hi there. I am in a similar boat and just ordered a grey baggabond. (I really like huge bags and always have regretted ordering a smaller size) I'm about the same PBH as you (89) and have ~11" saddle loops to a cheap no-name saddle bag support rack. I am running RTP's so curious if I'd be able to run a baggabond rack free eventually. The bag should be showing up this week at some point customs pending so may have more useful info.

Another thought is something like this:

https://ronsbikes.com/products/not-a-rack

I think you could easily make one out of parts bin rack struts and parts for under $20. Could be an interesting solution.

[Hetchins52]

Patrick, and all,

The Rivendell designs don't really have any stiffness to the front of the bag (closest to the seat post and SQR) so their bags will collapse around the SQR rack. I took my Homer out to RBWHQ in late 2018 to try out a BaggaBond (and HappiSack) to see what the additional height of the SQR system would do. It works, but not optimally.

We also tried hoisting the BBond up with the string to the bottom loops of the daisy chain trick. My saddle to tire distance is too small. And, I don't use anything bigger than the old Medium SaddleSack, now.

See attached photos.

David Lipsky

[Andrew Turner]

While this is also pretty expensive for what it is, it's still cheaper than a rack, or you could DIY something similar for a few bucks less. https://ronsbikes.com/products/not-a-rack 

I'm using one now on a Carradice Camper Long Flap that I modded with 3 leather, essentially, belt loops to the bottom for the horizontal rod to run through. Works great! 

- Andrew

[Lyman Labry]

Watching ronsbikes video was a hoot.  Clever end run on racks.  But, you can’t remove the sack without dismantling, no?

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[Andrew Turner]

There's the rub, no you cannot, unless you're feeling extra crafty.