Need help sizing for the upcoming Appaloosa

[Ted W]

Long rambling post ahead, but bear with me...

Folks, I'm stressing about this way more than is probably necessary but I've been pining for an Appaloosa for years and I really want to make sure I won't be bummed out by a poor fit. So, here's the deal. I called Riv and spoke with Roman. After discussing my current bike and my size he suggested the 57cm. Now, I'm not doubting his knowledge on the subject but I can't wrap my head around the difference in measurements between what I'm currently riding and the 57cm Appaloosa and I'm hoping maybe to get some more opinions on the subject to either help me be comfortable with the idea of the 57 or realize that I need the 54...

Current bike has the following measurements:
58cm ETT, approx. 39cm reach, 57cm stack and 83cm standover

The 57cm Appa has:
62.5cm ETT, 41.3cm reach, 63.5cm stack and 85.2cm standover

The 54cm Appa has:

59.8cm ETT, 39.6cm reach, 60.3cm stack and 82.3cm standover

My PBH is around 87cm so I have plenty of room for either size

My current bike has a standard setback seatpost with a B17 saddle. I have a 100mm quill stem and Velo Orange, 50m randonneur bars and 170mm crank arms. In this configuration, the bike is almost perfect.

Now, I think I'd be quite happy with the additional standover and stack height; my current bike has around 160mm of steerer sticking up out of the head tube, so being able to drop that by 70mm would be aesthetically beneficial. Not to mention the extra top tube length combined with the more slack head tube of the Appa might prevent the toe overlap And since I'm currently running a 100mm stem, I can easily cut that back to accommodate the additional reach.

My main concern with the 57cm Appa is the ETT length as it relates to my knee angle / knee-ankle line. I seem to have a fairly short femur as I'm always having to push my saddles fairly far forward to get my knee in line with, or slightly over my ankle to avoid pain in my knees. Being that my current bike has only about 1-2cm of additional room on the rails to slide the seat forward, and the 57cm Appa effectively places the seat tube another 2cm further back, I'm concerned I'm going to end up unable to achieve the necessary knee/ankle alignment.

So, now that I have probably made myself sound sufficiently insane and obsessive, give me some opinions. Maybe there's a 0 setback 26.8 seatpost that could bail me out if it's a problem? Will the other differences in the frame geometry compensate for the differences in ways I'm not considering? Hit me with anything you think might be relevant :)

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Ted Wood < ted.l...@gmail.com >

[Hoch in ut]

Ted, are you setting up the Appaloosa with dropbars or flat bars? 

[DavidP]

Hoch's question about intended bars gets to the crux of choosing a frame size, I think - you want a larger roomier frame for swept back bars and less reach for drop bars though by changing stem length you can likely get both bars to work on either.

I have the same PBH as you and am comfortable on drop bar bikes with 58cm ETT. By comparison the ETT on my 60cm Platy seems astronomical, and yet I run a 120mm stem along with swept back bars and have a fairly upright position (~75deg back angle) when back on the grips.

With regards to your concern about reach - I may be missing something but the extra 2cm reach also means the BB moves back along with the seat tube (since reach is measured from BB forward) so the saddle / knee / pedal alignment isn't impacted? What would impact the saddle to BB alignment is a difference in seat tube angle.

Have you compared the bike geometries on Bike Insights?
https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=646ed3ba6c60a90021cb6aa5,,

[Ted W]

Thanks to the help from my LBS I was directed to bike insights and pulled up another frame I own and compared it to the Appa. I came to the conclusion that I should go with the 57cm based on the overlaid wire frames of the bikes and purchased one of these in purple.

To Hoch’s question, I want to run drop bars. I’ve tried swept back bars on my Gus and while I like it, this build will serve a different purpose and I’m generally more comfortable with a more upright, drop bar position.

To expand a bit (ok a lot), the 57cm Appa had a difference of about 45mm overall compared to the 54cm Surly Disc Trucker it will be replacing. I naively purchased the trucker thinking I could get away with the smaller frame to maintain 26” wheels by stretching it out with a longer stem and long setback seat post. I was successful, however, in doing so I changed the handling characteristics quite negatively (I believe due to extending the reach so dramatically) and this make it feel like the front wheel wanted to flop over when cornering. When lining up the BB in the wire frame models, the seat tube and head tube angles of the two bikes were nearly identical and the tops of the seat post collar was fairly similar. The primary differences were the extended wheelbase of the Appa due to the extra long chainstays and the head tube being about 45mm further forward, as mentioned previously. So, this made it fairly easy to realize that I could get the 57cm Appa and got quite nicely with a rather “normal” stem length of around 50mm instead of the 120mm I needed on the Surly.

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Ted Wood < ted.l...@gmail.com >

[Hoch in ut]

You’ve already concluded the 57 was the right size. I think so, too, based on the fact you wanted to set this up as an Upright dropbar bike. Higher the bars, closer the bars come towards you. 54 would’ve felt too cramped. 

Best wishes on the build!

[Garth]

Ted, Origin8 makes a "Pro Fit"  zero setback 26.8 silver seatpost. (365 Cycles sells them) I don't know about the quality of the hardware. I'm mainly referring to the bolts and the length of the clamp itself as to how long it holds the rails. Kalloy for example, sucks !  Nitto and Thomson make them in 26.8 for more money but have proper clamps and stout bolts. This will allow you to get your saddle positioned over the BB where you need it. This positioning comes first, before any consideration of reach to the bars. 

By the way, the STA and HTA are anything but nearly identical ! The difference between 71.5d and 73d in seat angle = appx. 18mm further back of the seat tube at saddle height. The 72d and 71d HTA means the Appa bars don't move back as much as they do with the shallower LHT. This is where when comparing frames you must look at everything in relation with everything else. I'm assuming these two frames : 

https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=646ed3ba6c60a90021cb6aa4,5f5e45837fbbda0017192063

You can input things here https://www.bikegeocalc.com/ if you really want to see how things change. It's sorta geeky, but you catch on how it works. It beats buying the wrong frame though. 

I've edited this so much my heads spinning so forgive me if it's a bit scattered !

[Ted W]

Thanks for the info, Garth! So, apologies about the confusion in my last email. I am on a bike tour this week and trying to do everything on my phone leads to funny wording sometimes, not to mention the difficulty constructing coherent thoughts with the brain fog from all day riding. I did not mean to say they were “mostly identical”, you are correct, there is quite a difference. However, considering that I needed a longer set back seat post and very long stem on the LHT, the extra room should be a welcomed difference and the end result of the fit should be mostly identical using normal-ish parts (standard set back and reasonable length stem). I was able to use the LHT as a reference for how the Appa would fit in relation to something I had experience with, despite their differences and that’s teLly what I was trying to figure out. The last thing I wanted to do was wind up with something that was severally out of whack to where I wouldn’t enjoy such an otherwise lovely bike.

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Ted Wood < ted.l...@gmail.com >

[Eric Marth]

Ted, glad to see you got an Appaloosa ordered. Do let us know how it all works out with the fit and the ride once you have it all built up!