How you choose 2 Rivendells?

[Masa]

Hi all, I would like to ask you how you would choose 2 Rivendells if you could own.

Which models? What kind of purposes? What kind of weather? What kind of roads? Any definition is welcome.

I'm currently riding a Platypus and I feel like I can ride it everywhere for any purpose as Riv says it's an All-rounder so I just would like to know how you would add one more Riv or how you are riding 2 Rivs already as a reference (possibly for my future 2nd Riv).

I hope you enjoy the topic!

Masa

[Luke Hendrickson]

Hey Masa!

Great question. I currently have a MIT Atlantis set up with cantilevers and a rack and larger Maxxis tires (29” x 2.4” in the front and 29” x 2.3” in the rear). I’ve found that it’s a pleasurable upright cruiser around San Francisco, a real ripper on mtb trails in Marin, and a wonderful commuter. I believe that it would fender rather well and be a great bike to do some randonneuring as well. The main reason I would get another Riv would be to keep thus bike as-is rather than changing it each time I wanted to do more road-ish riding with fenders. Then again, fenders and a tire change/second wheelset would solve that. 

I have been anxiously awaiting the next lugged iteration of the Roadini. I tried Will’s out not long after this last batch and it was a smooth and stable bike. Nimble and grounded while being zippy, I immediately wanted to build up a road bike around that frame. As is, I’m going to wait it out for the next batch of them and see how I feel then.

[Joe Bernard]

Hey Masa!

This is a cool companion to the occasional One Riv To Rule Them All threads we do around here. 

I'm currently a one Riv (and one folding bike) person, my custom is a low-stepover kinda-pavement-oriented bike like your Platypus: It'll go just about anywhere but wasn't designed for hardcore off-road riding or full-on touring loads. I've done some shopping runs on it that I could feel in the frame was probably pushing my luck with how much weight I was carrying, so for me my second Riv would be heavier duty. I've also recently moved to an area with a bunch of fire roads and singletrack, and although my riding interests/capabilities would preclude major mountain biking escapades I'd still like to know my frame could take the abuse. 

So I'd reach as far from my lightish roadish frame as possible, which takes me past the lugged frames and into Clem or Gus territory. What I end up with - if/when I decide to do it - would depend largely on money and opportunity to pick something up. I really like the Gus but they're pricey even used and rarely available; Clems are great and easier to find. I've owned a few and imagine I'll have one again sometime. 

I hope this was helpful for you. I saw on another thread that you asked Leah for a comparison of her Platy(s) and Clem L, I hope she chimes in here, she has much to say and says it well! 🙂

Joe Bernard 

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 9:52:42 PM UTC-8 Masa wrote:

[Masa]

Hi Luke! Thank you for your post, your Atlantis must be an amazing looking bike!

It's nice that you can enjoy cruising, trailing and even commuting with one bike. In my case there aren't many trails near here in Tokyo so that I made my Platypus as a commuter/grocery bike (43c semi slicked Gravel King, RMX pedal, chain guard, basket and fenders etc).

I'm happy with the current build of my Platypus so I would rather keep it as it is than installing too much stuff to spoil the purpose of the bike.

Therefore I can understand that you would like to keep the Atlantis as-is and own another one even though Atlantis (also Platypus) is called all-rounder.

I hope you will have a good feeling and luck with the next batch of Roadini (if I'm not mistaken, you mean there will be lugged Roadinis!?).

I will ride the Platypus more and see which one would be good for my second Riv or even the Platypus actually does all for me.

Until then let's enjoy our current bikes!

Masa

 

2022年12月6日火曜日 15:10:21 UTC+9 Luke Hendrickson:

[Conway Bennett]

I have my Hunqapillar and my partner has a Rosco Bubbaloosa ATB Mixte, so that's two.  I currently have a Quickbeam too, but that's on its own way out.  I also owned a Sam Hillborne, but gasp, I was never comfortable enough on it.  The only current Riv that I like is the Appaloosa, but it would be redundant.  I have always wanted a canti-Romulus or an All Rounder and would buy either if it wasn't a hassle in any way.

[Masa]

Hi Joe, thank you for your post! It must be amazing to own a custom Riv and it's so cool that you made it as your daily-purpose-not-hardcore  bike:)

I personally like the bike which I can see its purpose and I like my Platypus as a commuter (even I kind of want to swap the tires to 38c Teravail which I have from 43c Gravel King to make it more pavement-oriented) so that it would be a heavy duty model such as Clem and Gus if I own my second Rivendell too. 

Since I got the Platty recently it's "if" but not "when" to own second Riv for me at the moment but your post is really helpful and it's good to know that someone is on the same page as me, thanks! 

Masa

2022年12月6日火曜日 17:30:49 UTC+9 Joe Bernard:

[Masa]

It's really rare to see the old Rivendells where I live so that I'm not familiar to them but I always hear that Hunqapillar is one of the most popular/admired Rivendells. I assume that you like the one you own much. AlsoI wonder if there is a significant difference you find between Hunqapillar and Appaloosa while they would be redundant.

2022年12月6日火曜日 20:50:09 UTC+9 captaincon...@gmail.com:

[Ryan]

When I started buying Rivendells after owning a 93 X0-1 (still have it), I started with the classic All-Rounder ordered in 1997. Since I still did longer road rides I got a custom Road in 2001 to replace a nice enough Rossin I had and later sold...fast but not especially comfortable since it was a typical Italian racing bike, so harsh with our roads the way they are. The Riv road is a great-riding bike, as is the all-rounder.

I ordered a custom mixte late 2015 for my retirement bike but (I'm embarrassed to confess) don't ride it much mainly because it's a bit of a pain getting it up and down the narrow flight of stairs to my apartment and I won't lock it up in the garage; a little too risky. Not ready to let it go just yet, though, and if I were to sell it I doubt I'd recoup what I paid for it. Money aside, though, I put a lot of thought into how it was built up and it should be ridden. Fore and aft fit needs a little tweaking and I do plan to ride it more in the spring. Should practice the mixte deadlift like the Riv sisters often post😊

[Shoji Takahashi]

I have a Homer and HHH in the shed among other bikes. I'm on the fence about getting a Platypus: I'd use it as an all-rounder commuter, like my Homer. I have a medium saddlesack and 137 basket, which handles most of what I would want to carry by bike. 

I'd add a lightweight one-speed, like the coming RoadUno. Whenever I strip down the Homer for maintenance and ride it (sans racks), it always sparks joy. I would try to leave it as a minimal bike that's for Just Riding. 

Enjoy!

shoji

arlington ma

[Scott Luly]

Hey, Luke:

Please forgive off thread topic question but what cantilevers are you running that allows you to run a 2.4 on your MIT Atlantis. I'm building one now and part of my decision to get an MIT Atlantis was seeing on Riv's website the ability to run a 2.4 "comfortably." I called Riv to ask about 2.4 clearance, and Will was gracious enough to fit a set of 2.4 front and rear and get back to me with his findings. He said there was a bit more room out back, about 5 mm of clearance between tire and stay, and a little less room up front, about 3 mm of clearance. Surfing the Riv site the other day, I see they changed in the bike's description for tire clearance from 2.4 to 2.3.

Please share your thoughts on brakes choice and tire clearance.

Thanks so much,

Scott

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[Ben Mihovk]

Hello!

I think a lot of it has to do with how you set 'em up, but I have a "work" and "play" two Riv set up. Atlantis is work horse with racks, basket on the front, Sackville saddle sack for laptop, lunch, incidentals, upright bars, etc... I can carry a lot on it, it's stable loaded up, etc... I have a Sam Hillborne that's just to ride for fun. No racks, Swift Zeitgeist on the front for layers, snacks, phone/keys/wallet, x-small saddle sack on the back for tools/flat kit, drop bars. I like having a somewhat lighter and zippier bike to ride when I don't need to carry anything and I'm just going out for fun.

Now...I do ride my Atlantis for fun now and then, and I have taken the Sam to work when I don't have more than a lunch to carry with me. It's nice to ride one where you'd normally ride the other to see how each performs outside of the normal use.

Ben in Omaha 

[Marc Irwin]

My choice was easy, I wanted a Bombadil but the 650B wheels kept me back.  When Grant designed the 700c version, Hunqapillar, I was all in.  After a year of riding the Hunq, I HAD to have the lighter faster version and bought a Sam.  No regrets.  The Hunq takes me anywhere, on any road with any load for days at a time.  The Sam is provides the same comfort and response for recreational rides and keeps me up with 15-16mph groups easily.

Marc

[Matt Maceda]

I'm going with CLEM L and any big tire road bike. One for riding loaded (ha!) and one for a "spirited" pace with minimal portage, definitely no racks. I had a toyo homer but got rid of it because of the overlap in my collection, but that would be my choice for "second riv".

[Ryan]

Well, once you have one, temptation to add N + 1 is hard to resist. They may be expensive but they are worth it and they never seem to go out of style. I can sure think of worse things to spend money on...and my excuse is that they are my one material indulgence; I don't really care that much about the acquisition of other stuff.

[iamkeith]

People typically choose two Rivendell bikes by thinking about what the eventual third one will be, and by calculating how they will all complement each other and round things out.

This sounds sort of tongue-in-cheek, but it's common in practice because of the addiction/collector gene that all bike geeks possess.   N+1 is real.  You're always going to "think" you need another:  One that's lighter and suited for long, fast paved trips; or one that has fatter tires and is better suited for exploring dirt roads and trails;  or better equipped for loaded touring; or one that's equipped as a town bike for shopping and carrying things; or one that's robust and fendered for winter commuting.  So what seems like an obvious answer is to get two models that are as different as possible - like a Roadini and a Gus - to cover all bases.... but this thinking is a trap.  

The problem is that you end end up with bikes that are specialized  or optimized for one thing but don't get ridden enough because -  in the end - you're ALWAYS  going to just grab the one you like best and fits the best and that you are most familiar with.  The one that has become an extension of you.

My advice would be to do the opposite:  Think about the range of riding that you do on a regular basis, and pick two models separated only by that degree of optimization.   If you don't regularly do group rides with roadies, you really don't need that Roadini.  If you don't live in the mountains, you really don't need that Gus.  If you don't plan to tour - or could get by with a lighter load or credit card the one time you do - then you don't really need an Atlantis.  You can ALWAYS do those things on any other Rivendell model.  You might just go a tiny bit slower.  

With this thinking, you'll admittedly end up with bikes with a lot of functional overlap, but I promise you'll use both of them more.  If you tinker with one at a time, you can also experiment with things like different cockpit setups and gearing and tires to your heart's content, without finding yourself without a bike to ride mid-project, while you're tracking down some obscure spacer or ferrule that you didn't know you needed.  

So unless you really DO participate in those more extreme activities, you could maybe get a Sam if your tire and fender clearance are good but you think you'll regularly need a stiffer frame than the Platypus.  Or get a Clem L if you like the step-through but regularly need fatter tires than the Platypus.

Leah, when faced with your exact quandary, did the smartest thing ever and just got a second Platypus!  

I started accumulating rivendells (and other bikes) at a different time.  Compared to the much older and more speciaiized ones that I own, the current range of Rivendell bikes - with the longer top tubes and longer chainstays and slacker head angles and increased tire clearance - across the entire range -  are SO good.  Combined with the ready availability of quality, fat tires now on the market, it's hard to make a mistake.  I often think how much simpler my life would be if I got rid of most of what I have and chose one new one - but I'm too emotionally attached still.   So many now hang un-used... making me feel guilty... while I inevitably grab the "one." 

[Luke Hendrickson]

Masa – yes! Will said that when I was chatting with him about a month or so ago (or maybe I read it online in an update?). Either way, that’s in the works!

Scott – I saw that change on the site and Will was also sorta blown away when I mentioned how big my tires on the Atlantis were! I would suggest 2.25” max if you do a lot of mud. I ride a lot of trails but loathe muddy trails. I currently have Mafac cantilevers on here and so it stands to reason that you could opt for Paul Neo Retros instead for similar clearance and improved adjustability.

[Eric Daume]

I am currently Riv-less (between Rivs?) but I could cover most of my riding with a QB for road fixed gear riding and a Gus or Susie for mountain biking and the occasional overnighter. 

It would be hard to give up a dropper post for trail riding, though.

Eric 

Who somehow has 7 bikes but surely doesn’t need that many. 

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[Scott Luly]

Luke, thanks for the pics...snug fit! That's very helpful intel.

Obviously, you keep your rims true. I don't intentionally ride muddy conditions and have a set of 2.35 Vittoria Mezcals on the way. On the MIT Atlantis I don't intend on running anything wider than that for dirt touring, bikepacking, gravel, and MTB stuff. The future Gus will fulfill the desire to run plumpies.

Scott

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[Bill Lindsay]

Keith articulated a problem statement:

"The problem is that you end end up with bikes that are specialized  or optimized for one thing but don't get ridden enough because -  in the end - you're ALWAYS  going to just grab the one you like best and fits the best and that you are most familiar with.  The one that has become an extension of you."

While I have no doubt that this kind of things DOES happen, I reject the notion that it MUST happen.  People acquire bikes for lots of reasons, and later on change their minds about the bike and get rid of them.  Curating a stable takes effort and self-knowledge, but a well-curated stable is not impossible.  Plenty of people have stables of 5, 10 or even more bikes, and are perfectly content to keep them all.  N+1 does not require one to fall out of love with another bike.  It only depends how much room one has in their heart for bikes.  Some of us have VERY LARGE HEARTS.  

Bill "big-hearted" Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 10:43:21 AM UTC-8 iamkeith wrote:

[Ryan]

Yes...indeed we do, Bill. And all of them have a story

I do like your thinking

[Ryan Frahm]

I feel very happy with my 2 Rivendell bikes stable. I use my Clem H everyday for groceries and towing my daughter around (studded tires with fenders now). It could easily be stripped down and be a fantastic dirt road exploration bike, but I am fortunate to have a Susie for that and the Susie has an incredible ride!I’d love to add something like a Sam for lighter, quicker rides, but I’m slow on any bike so I doubt it would make a big difference.

[John Rinker]

Hey Masa, 

I'm stoked to own two Rivs- a Waterford Hunqapillar and a Toyo Atlantis. 

The Hunq was my first bike from Rivendell which I bought new in 2015. I had the great pleasure of working with Keven M on ordering and dialing the bike in. Right out of the box it was a go-anywhere, do-anything bike, and it has been tested to its limits all over the world. Or, should I say, it has tested my limits! This is the One-Bike-To-Rule-Them-All as far as I'm concerned. 

I was fortunate enough to find a Toyo Atlantis a couple of summers ago in this group. I chose the Atlantis because I still wanted a trail-worthy bike that could handle a load, but also one that could be pared down for a lighter, more nimble ride. Further, I wanted a bike made in Japan by Toyo because...well...because of my love affair with Japanese dedication to craftsmanship. It's a beautiful bicycle that provides a dreamy ride. 

As far as the problem of bikes not being ridden enough is concerned, my solution has been to ride all the time and alternate daily- when the Hunq rolls on Monday, then the Atlantis rocks on Tuesday.

Cheers, John

[Luke Hendrickson]

John,

What a two bike collection you have! Since I have the Riv I’ve always wanted (Atlantis), now I’m yearning for a Hunq. Such a lovely, lugged beaut. 

[Masa]

It's really interesting to read how people are enjoying/planning to ride 2 Rivendells! 

It seems like most of you have 2 different type Rivs for different occasions as I was vaguely imaging for my future as well.

As Keith pointed out the tricky point is that if you get second bike for a different purpose which you barely have chances to go, you will end up to ride just one but not both of them. 

That made me think that I should get the second Riv if I "need" it while I got my first one mostly because I did "want" it.

(Well it's really hard to separate these feelings though)

Anyway I am going to ride my Platypus as much as possible for now and will see if I need another one:)

Otherwise actually it's a really simple thing. Having 2 bikes you really love and "ride all the time and alternate daily" as John said.

John, if I'm not mistaken I have seen your Hunq on Blue Lug's blog before. You have lived in Japan? The Hunq and the Atlantis are both so beautiful!

Masa 

2022年12月7日水曜日 17:55:05 UTC+9 Luke Hendrickson:

[reynoldslugs]

Well, I'd choose this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157696979339224

and that:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157645542691980

Legolas - fast and fun, light.  Always makes me happy.

Atlantis - same but more rock solid.

My favorite bike... is whichever one I'm riding at the moment.

Happy Holidays everyone, stay safe

Max Beach

Santa Rosa CA

[Stephen]

I have two and fall into the category of having bikes on the further ends of the spectrum. My first was a '21 appaloosa, which I craved for a while and wanted above other models because I was obsessed with its unique fork crown in addition to its tire clearance and capabilities. Then secondly, I was fortunate enough to find a ramboulliet in my size on the used market. I really enjoy both bikes, however, in the spirit of just keeping two (as I don't even have enough room for the bikes I currently own as it is.. ) and as the mixte/stepover bike styles keep invading my brain sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't have gotten a platypus instead of the Joe, or I think that I'd want to get clem or susie/gus for even more tire clearance. But, I have to say every time I ride the Joe I'm reminded how much I like it and how well it fits my needs. Both these bikes ride better than I remember every time I get on them.

Stephen

[Scott Luly]

Max:

I've wiped the drool from my chin and have a few questions about the Atlantis, please. I assume it's yours.

Is it a Toyo model (I don't get the Atlantis squared decal on downtube and the downtube shifter bosses)?

What saddle is that?!

Can you speak to and describe your cockpit and reasoning behind it, namely the multiple brake levers (is one a pass-through/slave)?

Happy Holidays, all!

Scott

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[Scott Luly]

John,

Your cup runneth over!!!

Those are two seriously RAD bikes. Inspiring to know both are loved and used frequently. Sounds like you've logged some cherished memories on the Hunq.

Scott

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[reynoldslugs]

Mon Cher Scott:

That's my Atlantis, yes.  It's one of the originals, I think I bought it from Rivendell in 2003.  I am not sure if that makes it a Toyo or something else, but I guess Toyo.

The saddle is a Selle Anatomica:

 https://selleanatomica.com/products/x1?currency=USD&variant=26447320072&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&gclid=Cj0KCQiAkMGcBhCSARIsAIW6d0DMPdR14gbzi7T9zEFYIZ9F08qIQgL-wwcThaZvwO5jRqNN3IPjFhgaAqUhEALw_wcB

As for the cockpit, those are regular in-line Paul Cross levers on the handlebars:

https://www.paulcomp.com/shop/components/brake-levers/inline/cross-lever/

My reasoning - i.e.,  the experience that led me to start putting  in-line cross levers on my bikes comes from long rides with long downhills.   After six hours or so of riding, they provide a comfortable alternative to braking in the drops.  When I'm tired, I like to have hand-position options for the Pine Flat Rd  descent (3,000' descent), or one of the other hills around here.

Best,

Max B

Santa Rosa CA

[reynoldslugs]

Scott et al - 

correction - sorry, the saddle on the Atlantis is an SMP Avant:

https://www.performancebike.com/selle-smp-avant-saddle-black-aisi-304-rails-154mm-zstrikeamne/p1262159?v=531971&gclid=Cj0KCQiAkMGcBhCSARIsAIW6d0C4B_hvbJZzbo7h6LftzDSyVysuuUTlKKqOM_1-J5mYoAJjo7O4FOEaAta9EALw_wcB

It doesn't look as nice as the Selle Anatomica, but I switched a number of bikes over to the SMP Avant split-seat in my post-cancer life.  (I don't usually mention that, but it's no big deal and I'm figuring a number of us have had to accomodate our bikes and components for all kinds of medical reasons as we get older.  E.g., cross levers for old arthritic neck, split-saddles for post-surgical comfort.)

Best

Max B

Santa Rosa

[Scott Luly]

Max, splendid!

I bought an Atlantis f/f from Riv last month and have a build in progress, so I've been vacuuming-up build directions/options/possibilities. And thanks for the reasoning behind your cockpit design...creative and functional.

Thanks for the dirt!

Scott

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[Scott Luly]

Affectionately acknowledged, Max. Ride on...

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/aec17141-7226-487c-a9a8-6f8ca3a42692n%40googlegroups.com

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[Shoji Takahashi]

Scott,

"Atlantis 2" on Rivendell's model is because Bridgestone had an "Atlantis" model, designed by Hiro Watanabe. 

You can read about it in RR35 available here: http://notfine.com/rivreader/

Thanks

Shoji

Arlington MA

[Brian Turner]

There’s some real chestnuts in that issue. Oddly enough, it’s one of the very few physical issues I still own. You get a primer on the term “beausage”, an in-depth interview with Gilles Bertoud, more than you ever wanted to know about Salukis, and an introduction to the esteemed Mark’s rack. I actually purchased one of those little Tivoli radios back then because of the review that was mentioned in this issue!

-Brian

[John Rinker]

Yes, Masa, I lived in Yokohama for a couple of years and had the very good fortune to ride in many beautiful places in Japan. Yakushima and Shikoku were my favorites! And, you are not mistaken, Chuyan at Blue Lug Hatagaya took some photos of my bike one day, so he must have posted them on the blog. Great bike shop with friendly, helpful staff. Another favorite of mine. 

Cheers,

John

[Scott Luly]

Shoji,

Thank you for educating me on Atlantis history and sharing the article...much appreciated!

Scott

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[J J]

I’m really enjoying this thread! Thanks for initiating it, Masa.

Like John, I have a Waterford Hunqapillar (58) I bought new from Rivendell. Also like John, I have a Toyo Atlantis (61), a recent acquisition. So John's post really resonated. 

A few weeks ago someone asked me, “Why did you buy an Atlantis if you already have a Hunq?” I really hadn’t thought about that question. I guess the implication was that the two bikes had overlap of purpose.

To my mind it was more like, why wouldn’t I buy the Atlantis? It checked a lot of boxes: Toyo built; fully lugged; quintessential Rivendell; beautiful; robust; classic good looks; the submarine green.

I don’t think anything could replace the Hunq, my true all-rounder. I’d buy another if the bike gods kindly bestowed one on me. There is precedent in my household of having two of the same bike, a Wilbury and a Glorius.

But the more I ride the Atlantis the more I appreciate just how special it is, too. It reminds me of the Hunq in robustness, stability, and lovely ride, but it is more compact and a bit livelier and lighter. And I could load it up if I needed to. I love the feel and aesthetics of the shorter wheelbase Rivs. All Rivs are great no matter where they are produced. There's something distinctive about the Toyo-built Rivs that's hard to pin down. 

Jim

[Masa]

John, it was actually you and your Hunq on the blog post! I have been to Shikoku for a holiday by the public transportations but it must be amazing to ride there. I'm glad that you could see many beautiful places here in Japan.

Luckily Blue Lug is my local bike shop so it didn't take long for me to be a Riv fan!

Masa

2022年12月8日木曜日 3:28:02 UTC+9 John Rinker:

[Masa]

Hi Jim, I too am really enjoying this thread to know how the people ride/plan their Rivendells!

I can easily tell that how your Rivs are beautiful even from the head badges:)

Can I ask you how you describe the feel of the shorter wheelbase Rivs please?

Since my only Riv is Platypus which has longer wheelbase and so do majority of the current line up of Riv, I'm not familiar with the shorter ones.

The more I like the feel of the longer wheelbase Riv, the more I'm curious how is the feel of the shorter ones.

I would like to know how you feel them!

Thanks,

Masa

2022年12月8日木曜日 11:33:57 UTC+9 J J:

[Scott Luly]

Jim,

Your bikes are immaculate and down right gorgeous! Does each have its own bedroom in the house?!

Will you, please, share pictures of your cockpits? I'm in a state of ponder regarding my Atlantis' cockpit direction.

And more pictures of the Glorious, PLEASE??? That's my fave!

Happy Holidays,

Scott

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[John Rinker]

Hey Masa-san,

You are lucky, indeed! Blue Lug is such a great shop; there are so many beautiful bikes and fine parts to enjoy. 

I rode to Shikoku on the Shimanami-kaido from Onomichi. This is a spectacular way to go there. You must try it sometime. Here are GaiaGPS tracks and photos if you are interested.

Cheers, John

[Bill Rhea]

Hi Masa,

Funny I was thinking of this the other day... What if I could keep just one of my Riv bikes?

I would have to go with the first generation, grey/red 62cm Waterford Hunquapillar.  Day night, rain shine, commuting, long multi-day tours or grocery runs... Always comfortable, reliable, and fun!  Has more miles on it than any other in my fleet 

After that I'd have to say my first gen, Toyo AHH.  This is my winter road bike, with fenders, Schmidt generator light and French-style handlebar bag on the Mark's rack with a VO decaleur.  Ready for all conditions, but for light loads on long day rides.

Others in the fleet (yeah, I know, I've got a condition here...).  I build this up over 30 years, but what can I say?  I like Grant's bikes!

63 cm Romulus with Gran Comp centerpull brakes, no racks, 38c tires.  My summer road bike that's also great on dirt roads

64cm Quickbeam with Bertoud steel fenders, with a Sturmey Archer S3X hub.  My commuter of many years but less practical now that I live in super hilly area in Napa

Size XL Susie/Wolbis with a fillet faceplate Nitto stem and Tosco extra-wide bars. My off road "klunker" but also great on the super steep, beat-up roads in my area

Size M orange Hubbuhubbuh. The.Best.Tandem.Ever

59cm orange XO1 with a looong Nitto MTB stem from the 80's and Albatross bars (my stepson has it now). Always was a little small for me, but got ridden tons back in the day

I love seeing all the photos from BlueLug, RivSoc, and all the Japanese Riv enthusiasts on IG!  Makes the world feel a lot smaller!

Cheers,

-br

[J]

John- thanks for that GaiaGPS link. It's the first time I've seen it after hearing about it for years, it's a really nice set up. I really like how if you are just scrolling though photos it is simultaneously moving your point on the route as well in the background. Looks like a lovely ride. 

[MoVelo]

Late to the party but these two have kept me happy.

@Max B; I was really struck with how close your Leoglas is to mine. I usually run Chris King hubs laced to Pacneti rims with RH 700x38s, but am trying some slightly wider rubber here. 

Cheers and Happy Holiday!

JP

[Masa]

John san, thank you for sharing the tracks and photos! I just saw the first ones and these were amazing. I will check the rest later.

Bicycles were only tool for me before but now they are something makes me happy and I care about so yes I'm sure that I'm interested in long distance rides!

Masa

2022年12月9日金曜日 2:00:39 UTC+9 John Rinker:

[Masa]

Hi Bill, you enjoy riding all the Rivendells for each purpose and I admire it!

The other day I saw an orange Hubbuhubbuh at Blue Lug Kamiuma branch and it was already sold.

I hope to see the tandem bike is running in Tokyo very soon because tandems are not so common here.

I like to see people are riding Rivendells in a lot countries too! It's amazing to see that one bike makes so many people happy.

Masa 

2022年12月9日金曜日 3:02:59 UTC+9 Bill Rhea:

[Masa]

Hi JP, I can't take out my eyes off not only your bikes but records too!

I think we have more than one thing in common:)

Masa

2022年12月9日金曜日 3:33:08 UTC+9 MoVelo:

[Jason Zakaras]

For me, I have a Quickbeam and a Hunqapillar, the riding I do varies from fast road riding to rough gravel riding to dirt mtb single track trails.  I think these two bikes are on opposite ends of the spectrum with wide ranges so I can do most everything I enjoy on a bike!

[Masa]

Hi Jason, I haven't ridden neither of them but sounds like if you have them you can not only ride everywhere but also have fun everywhere as much as possible as you said. I would like to see photos of the bikes if possible!

Masa

2022年12月10日土曜日 1:38:46 UTC+9 jasonz...@gmail.com:

[Jason Zakaras]

Hi Masa!  Yes lots of fun and fun yet to be had!  Here is a link to the two bikes:

 https://flickr.com/photos/197124752@N07/shares/C33fDW3gf1

(still learning how to upload photos here, or use my iPhone to add to conversations)

My QB is set up 48-18 free/fixed with a Paul flip flop hub and a SP7 polished front hub laced to polished velocity rims and 700cx42 Cava/Rose ultradynamico rubber. The crank is Rene Herse SS 171mm crank arm, Paul T&H Seatpost, and matching brooks honey saddle with the bar tap.  Bars are 600 Towel Rack that are absolutely lovely.  The brakes are Paul Cantis using the cx method of mixing the neos with the touring Cantis. funky monkey on the front for some added braking bling power.  I love this bike its been used for 150 mile races to causal family riding.  I could see myself touring with it, but like having it clean and rack free to maintain a light and fast quick, quickbeam

The Hunq is what I call my Disc-o-pHunqapillar, it is a MUSA Waterford Hunq that has been updated by Waltworks to have disc brakes added, which I think is a great feature for a heavy touring bike, certainly not critical, but I like it, especially when I have my twins linked to the back in their burley trailer.  It is currently under construction:

Painting currently pending at D&D to be the grey/kidneybean/lined lugs which I think really shines as a classic riv look and fun to have an OG painting the OG hunq once more....

Bars will be 630 silver towel racks with grey newbaums and maroon Oury grips, black and silver drilled TRP levers

black cable housing with brass ferrels and brass barrel adjusters

rear brake will be the DISC-o part of the pHunq.  I'll have a polished Paul Klamper short pull here, the front will be polished silver Paul Neo-canti brakes (going to keep it Canti up front) I think this will give me ultimate stopping power and a cool/funky (phunqE) look to this bike

combo brass/silver headset spacers / polished funky monkey front

1x White industries crank 38t black chainring, silver crank, 12 Spd rear cassette

black hubs front/rear with shutter precision dyno laced to velocity cliffhanger with 700c Ultradynamico MARZ rubber

I have marks hub area rack for panniers and a mini Nitto campee with a sine wave beacon lamp ready for bags and packing not sure if I'll swap out for a silver or black pass and stow 5 rail rack instead?  Not sure for the rear rack at the moment.... thoughts?

Nitto Jaguar Seatpost, Black/copper Ti brooks Seatpost to finish it off.

I'll probably start a build thread once I get the Frame/fork back from Rick.  Stoked for sure!

Cheers,

Jason

[Stephanie A.]

At first I thought I really only wanted a Platypus. I bike to get around the city. What more could I need? And then I started thinking. What if I want to ride on trails or have a slightly more aggressive ride? I can't quite say which I'd have as a second bike without riding any of them, but now I'm thinking I may eventually want an Atlantis, Homer, or Sam...

[Luke Hendrickson]

Stephanie – an Atlantis would be epic. 💅🏻

[Patrick Moore]

I'm intrigued by the Legolas. Can anyone compare the ride -- handling, "planing"? -- to the Roadeo or to the Rambouillet, or to the old Road Standard or to an older Road Custom? 

Does it have less bb drop than Rivendell road models? Does this affect handling or feel?

What is the fattest tire that will fit on a Legolas, no fenders? 

Thanks.

On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 8:15 AM reynoldslugs <be...@perrylaw.net> wrote:

Well, I'd choose ... and that:

[Patrick Moore]

The Atlantis is nice too. I have to say that you keep your bikes looking new. Or are they both new? Mine are never as clean and always show a bit of wear on frame, components, luggage.

On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 8:15 AM reynoldslugs <be...@perrylaw.net> wrote:

Well, I'd choose this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157696979339224

and that:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157645542691980

Legolas - fast and fun, light.  Always makes me happy.

Atlantis - same but more rock solid.

My favorite bike... is whichever one I'm riding at the moment.

Happy Holidays everyone, stay safe

Max Beach

Santa Rosa CA

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 12:30:49 AM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:

Hey Masa!

This is a cool companion to the occasional One Riv To Rule Them All threads we do around here. 

I'm currently a one Riv (and one folding bike) person, my custom is a low-stepover kinda-pavement-oriented bike like your Platypus: It'll go just about anywhere but wasn't designed for hardcore off-road riding or full-on touring loads. I've done some shopping runs on it that I could feel in the frame was probably pushing my luck with how much weight I was carrying, so for me my second Riv would be heavier duty. I've also recently moved to an area with a bunch of fire roads and singletrack, and although my riding interests/capabilities would preclude major mountain biking escapades I'd still like to know my frame could take the abuse. 

So I'd reach as far from my lightish roadish frame as possible, which takes me past the lugged frames and into Clem or Gus territory. What I end up with - if/when I decide to do it - would depend largely on money and opportunity to pick something up. I really like the Gus but they're pricey even used and rarely available; Clems are great and easier to find. I've owned a few and imagine I'll have one again sometime. 

I hope this was helpful for you. I saw on another thread that you asked Leah for a comparison of her Platy(s) and Clem L, I hope she chimes in here, she has much to say and says it well! 🙂

Joe Bernard 

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 9:52:42 PM UTC-8 Masa wrote:

Hi all, I would like to ask you how you would choose 2 Rivendells if you could own.

Which models? What kind of purposes? What kind of weather? What kind of roads? Any definition is welcome.

I'm currently riding a Platypus and I feel like I can ride it everywhere for any purpose as Riv says it's an All-rounder so I just would like to know how you would add one more Riv or how you are riding 2 Rivs already as a reference (possibly for my future 2nd Riv).

I hope you enjoy the topic!

Masa

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Eliot Balogh]

Max,

That Atlantis is absolutely stunning. I don’t think a more beautiful build is possible!

I’m sure I’ll get banned for asking this because it doesn’t matter and goes against the ethos but… purely out of curiosity, how much does it weigh in that configuration?

[Patrick Moore]

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 9:52:42 PM UTC-8 Masa wrote:
> Hi all, I would like to ask you how you would choose 2 Rivendells if you could own.

> Which models? What kind of purposes? What kind of weather? What kind of roads? Any definition is welcome.

> I'm currently riding a Platypus and I feel like I can ride it everywhere for any purpose as Riv says it's an All-rounder so I just would like to know how you would add one more Riv or how you are riding 2 Rivs already as a reference (possibly for my future 2nd Riv).

> I hope you enjoy the topic!

> Masa

For me it's easy: a gofast road bike (to make up for my slowness) and a very similar model but built for all rounder -- pavement + light dirt -- and errand riding. So perhaps a Roadeo and a Legolas or perhaps a repeat of my 1999 custom and another one that can take 42s and fenders.

If Clems and Platypuses or Atlantises (note proper English plurals) could fit 50 mm tires and fenders I'd sneak in a second #2 for more dirt biased riding. Anything under 50 mm is no good for our sand, and even 50 is too hard and skinny.

 

[Andrew Turner]

Bens "work" and "play" ethos gels with mine. I'd have to choose a Roadini and Clem combo. The lack of lugs doesn't bug me personally, in fact the skill and craftsmanship of Taiwan's TIG welders more than makes up for that. Plus the bikes are just so darn GOOD. I've had a Roadini in the past that was a size too big but was still the most enjoyable riding bike I've had. And while I don't have experience with the Clem, it seems like a really well thought out multi-tool; not one of those with the toothpick that goes missing in a week and three odd knives you never use.  

Andrew in TN

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 9:37:14 AM UTC-6 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:

Hello!

I think a lot of it has to do with how you set 'em up, but I have a "work" and "play" two Riv set up. Atlantis is work horse with racks, basket on the front, Sackville saddle sack for laptop, lunch, incidentals, upright bars, etc... I can carry a lot on it, it's stable loaded up, etc... I have a Sam Hillborne that's just to ride for fun. No racks, Swift Zeitgeist on the front for layers, snacks, phone/keys/wallet, x-small saddle sack on the back for tools/flat kit, drop bars. I like having a somewhat lighter and zippier bike to ride when I don't need to carry anything and I'm just going out for fun.

Now...I do ride my Atlantis for fun now and then, and I have taken the Sam to work when I don't have more than a lunch to carry with me. It's nice to ride one where you'd normally ride the other to see how each performs outside of the normal use.

Ben in Omaha 

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 8:18:49 AM UTC-6 Shoji Takahashi wrote:

I have a Homer and HHH in the shed among other bikes. I'm on the fence about getting a Platypus: I'd use it as an all-rounder commuter, like my Homer. I have a medium saddlesack and 137 basket, which handles most of what I would want to carry by bike. 

I'd add a lightweight one-speed, like the coming RoadUno. Whenever I strip down the Homer for maintenance and ride it (sans racks), it always sparks joy. I would try to leave it as a minimal bike that's for Just Riding. 

Enjoy!

shoji

arlington ma

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 8:30:20 AM UTC-5 Ryan wrote:

When I started buying Rivendells after owning a 93 X0-1 (still have it), I started with the classic All-Rounder ordered in 1997. Since I still did longer road rides I got a custom Road in 2001 to replace a nice enough Rossin I had and later sold...fast but not especially comfortable since it was a typical Italian racing bike, so harsh with our roads the way they are. The Riv road is a great-riding bike, as is the all-rounder.

I ordered a custom mixte late 2015 for my retirement bike but (I'm embarrassed to confess) don't ride it much mainly because it's a bit of a pain getting it up and down the narrow flight of stairs to my apartment and I won't lock it up in the garage; a little too risky. Not ready to let it go just yet, though, and if I were to sell it I doubt I'd recoup what I paid for it. Money aside, though, I put a lot of thought into how it was built up and it should be ridden. Fore and aft fit needs a little tweaking and I do plan to ride it more in the spring. Should practice the mixte deadlift like the Riv sisters often post😊

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 6:40:09 AM UTC-6 Masa wrote:

It's really rare to see the old Rivendells where I live so that I'm not familiar to them but I always hear that Hunqapillar is one of the most popular/admired Rivendells. I assume that you like the one you own much. AlsoI wonder if there is a significant difference you find between Hunqapillar and Appaloosa while they would be redundant.

2022年12月6日火曜日 20:50:09 UTC+9 captaincon...@gmail.com:

I have my Hunqapillar and my partner has a Rosco Bubbaloosa ATB Mixte, so that's two.  I currently have a Quickbeam too, but that's on its own way out.  I also owned a Sam Hillborne, but gasp, I was never comfortable enough on it.  The only current Riv that I like is the Appaloosa, but it would be redundant.  I have always wanted a canti-Romulus or an All Rounder and would buy either if it wasn't a hassle in any way.

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 5:16:02 AM UTC-6 Masa wrote:

Hi Luke! Thank you for your post, your Atlantis must be an amazing looking bike!

It's nice that you can enjoy cruising, trailing and even commuting with one bike. In my case there aren't many trails near here in Tokyo so that I made my Platypus as a commuter/grocery bike (43c semi slicked Gravel King, RMX pedal, chain guard, basket and fenders etc).

I'm happy with the current build of my Platypus so I would rather keep it as it is than installing too much stuff to spoil the purpose of the bike.

Therefore I can understand that you would like to keep the Atlantis as-is and own another one even though Atlantis (also Platypus) is called all-rounder.

I hope you will have a good feeling and luck with the next batch of Roadini (if I'm not mistaken, you mean there will be lugged Roadinis!?).

I will ride the Platypus more and see which one would be good for my second Riv or even the Platypus actually does all for me.

Until then let's enjoy our current bikes!

Masa

 

2022年12月6日火曜日 15:10:21 UTC+9 Luke Hendrickson:

Hey Masa!

Great question. I currently have a MIT Atlantis set up with cantilevers and a rack and larger Maxxis tires (29” x 2.4” in the front and 29” x 2.3” in the rear). I’ve found that it’s a pleasurable upright cruiser around San Francisco, a real ripper on mtb trails in Marin, and a wonderful commuter. I believe that it would fender rather well and be a great bike to do some randonneuring as well. The main reason I would get another Riv would be to keep thus bike as-is rather than changing it each time I wanted to do more road-ish riding with fenders. Then again, fenders and a tire change/second wheelset would solve that. 

I have been anxiously awaiting the next lugged iteration of the Roadini. I tried Will’s out not long after this last batch and it was a smooth and stable bike. Nimble and grounded while being zippy, I immediately wanted to build up a road bike around that frame. As is, I’m going to wait it out for the next batch of them and see how I feel then.

[Masa]

Jason, thank you for sharing the Flickr link! the QB and the Hunq are so beautiful. I especially like the brown/orange colour combination on the QB. Also having thicker tires plus a drop handle bar for a single speed bike is fascinating.

I'm using Paul brakes (moto lite V brake) for my Platypus too and they are really nice and smooth!

Masa

2022年12月11日日曜日 2:46:08 UTC+9 jasonz...@gmail.com:

[Masa]

Hi Stephanie, I actually wanted a Platypus to get around the city and got one. I highly recommend you getting one for you for that purpose!

It's so smooth, flexible and also quick. 

I wouldn't have many chances for different kind of rides apart from city ride yet and even when I have a chance I would try with the Platypus first anyway.

That said, I still can understand the feeling that "what if I want to ride on trails or have a slightly more aggressive ride?".

Leah told me that she enjoys her Platys and Clem which sounds like a good idea.

Does anyone else have other idea for ＋1 for platypus? I'd like to know it as reference.

Please still share other combination apart from Platy＋1 as well!

Masa

2022年12月11日日曜日 5:32:31 UTC+9 Stephanie A.:

[Masa]

Hi Patrick, my Platypus has got 43c Gravel King SS ＋ SKS fender and there is still some space but I don't think it's possible to have 50mm tires.

I can see that this "what's for 2nd Rivendell" question could be "which bike can be most practical" and the answer would be different for each one of us. And it's really interesting for me to know the different answers!

Masa

2022年12月11日日曜日 16:13:21 UTC+9 Patrick Moore:

[MoVelo]

Patrick Moore asked these questions, and since I own both a Ram and Legolas I will attempt to answer them. Be forewarned I am not the best writer, nor do I believe I am the best at describing the subtleties of various different bikes (ie handling, ride and so forth).

<I'm intrigued by the Legolas. Can anyone compare the ride -- handling, "planing"? -- to the Roadeo or to the Rambouillet, or to the old Road Standard or to an older Road Custom?>

The short answers is that my Ram has a lower bottom bracket (7mm) which seems a small increment but does make the Ram handle a bet less twitchier than the Legolas. I will say I was looking to move the Legolas along until I found someone to thread the steerer tube for me. Evidently the flex the cockpit now possesses now makes the bike much more comfortable yet still comparatively twitcher , or more subject to minute steering inputs, which perhaps can be attributed to the one degree steeper seat tube angle? 

I currently have my Ram set up 650b which allows me to run a true 42mm width which works well for the loose river run gravel the local road department folks like to slather about. 

I have no peddle strike issues with the Ram with the 650b conversion, but I will say that I do not peddle thru corners.

<Does it have less bb drop than Rivendell road models? Does this affect handling or feel?>

Yes, the Legolas BB drop is 70mm whilst the Rambouillet BB drop is 70mm. In my opinion this does make the Ram feel more stable but slower. The Legolas has .5mm longer chain stays than the Ram which should theoretically make it a bit more stable. 

The head tube angle is the same for the two sizes  have. 59cm for the Legolas, 58cm for the Ram. 

What I don't know is the weight difference. The Legolas seems lighter to me yet stiffer, or less 'planey', but I'm sure the tires make a bigger difference in that regard.

<What is the fattest tire that will fit on a Legolas, no fenders? >

I am experimenting with this and currently run a Gravel King 43mm up front  which is a true 43mm; and a Soma Vitesse 42mm in the back which is actually 40mm width. looks like I could squeeze a true 42mm in there if I could find one. I see on Rene Herse website they say 44mm is in actuality a 42mm on the type of rims I have. I'm not sure the extra 2mm in width back there is worth it tho. I am running these with tubes and OS (thanks for the huge tip on that), but might experiment with tubeless when the weather becomes more agreeable.

Both bikes I would consider all-rounders. The Ram with the 42mm width tire is a great gravel/country road bike. I am currently running Panaracer Pari-motos which I love. I have the ability to easily change the wheels by sliding the Tektro 559's to the top of the slot for 700c and the bottom of the slot for 650b. I know a lot of folks on this list do not like the 559s breaking feel or strength but I have no complaints. I will say tho that I live in the flatlands and do not have miles long descents to contend with.

The Legolas now with the handlebar makeover and my testing with wider tires is becoming more lovable. With 35mm or 38mm it is a go fast road bike, with the 42mm tires it is a very capable gravel/dirt/country road bike. 

Let me know if you have more questions. I posted pics of both bikes a few days back in this thread if you want to see them.

I apologize that this has gotten a bit long winded and so to quote Twain "it would be a lot short if I had more time".

 Cheers

James P

[MoVelo]

I see I hit the send button prematurely. The Ram BB drop is listed as 77mm not the 70mm I mistakenly wrote in the previous post.

JP

[J J]

Hi Masa, thanks for your kind message.

You asked "Can I ask you how you describe the feel of the shorter wheelbase Rivs please?" — in brief, I find the ride of the shorter wheelbase Rivs wonderful! 

Perhaps all of the characteristic differences between short and long wheelbase Rivs are relative, and it's hard for me to speak about the longer wheelbase models comparatively because I have only ridden one of them, and for a short time. The Hunqapillar has always felt very stable and comfortable to me regardless of the riding surface (pavement or off road), surface conditions, or loads that I carry (whether heavily loaded in the front, the back, both front and back, or unloaded). It tracks straight and inspires confidence. 

But I think it's important to note that the Hunq's "short" wheelbase is short only relative to the newer super long wheelbase Rivs, not short to most other bicycles. Grant was singing the virtues of Riv's long chain stays many, many years before Riv started producing super long models. 

Folks who have more recent very long Rivs rave about how stable and comfortable they are. I'd love to ride one for longer because it sounds fantastic. I'm sure your Platypus rides beautifully!

While the old Toyo Atlantis has a shorter wheelbase and chain stay than the Hunq, its ride is similarly stable and confidence inspiring. It does feel a touch more nimble, more easily maneuverable. (And I love the classic proportions and aesthetics of the Atlantis.) The front end is floppier than the Hunq's and I'm not sure if that is because of the geometry differences or because it has a narrow drop bar. I have noticeably more toe clip overlap on the Atlantis than the Hunq. I will be getting an upright, swept back bar for the Atlantis (I have Bosco on the Hunq) because riding drop bars very much hurts my shoulders and wrists. I'm curious how upright bars will change how the Atlantis feels. I have much wider tires on the Hunq (55mm) than the Atlantis (40mm), which also affect the feel. I will get wider tires for the Atlantis, too.

I very much take to heart a point Grant makes over and over: many factors and many variables beyond geometry numbers affect how a bike rides and feels. 

[Joe Bernard]

My very short, non-scientific and probably wrong opinion is: The uber-long-stay bikes are noticeably more comfortable on choppy roads, but it's not a huge difference from the older style. Both are great, the longies feel (to me) like somebody added one of those suspension blocks from a Brompton behind the BB shell. 

[Scott Luly]

Joe, I think you're on to something there.

Road graders (as in Caterpillar tractors) look funky with how long their wheel base is, but that long wheel base serves a functional purpose, to minimize the effects that slight changes in wheel elevation have on blade elevation (analogous to where one sits on a bike).

Furthermore, I may be wrong (not unusual), but it seems a longer wheel base bike would, ratio-wise, weight the front end more, to a degree (at least it does in the dirt bike world).

Scott

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[J J]

Hi Scott...thanks for your note! Instead of including photos here and commandeering this thread, I posted several pics of the Glorius and pics of the Hunq, Atlantis, and Wilbury cockpits on Google Drive. Feel free to check them out.

As I mentioned before, I'm going to replace the drops on the Atlantis with either a Bosco, Losco, Tosco, or Choco — say all that three times fast — because the drops kill my wrists and shoulders. I'll use Paul brake levers to match the Neo-Retro cantis levers and I'll probably retain those old Shimano bar-end shifters in indexed mode mounted to Paul thumbies. Riding the Atlantis was the first experience I've had with indexed shifting and I liked it! The shifters have a super satisfying click, and wow, the chain moves exactly where it needs to be :) (I'm not about to give up the friction shifters on the Hunq though.) The Atlantis drivetrain is exactly like the Hunq's — triple front and 9-sp Rapid Rise rear. And yes, the Rich-built Atlantis rear wheel has a shiny 48h Phil hub. Forty eight. The front wheel is "only" a 40h SON.

Please do keep us posted about your builds! 

Best wishes,

Jim 

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 10:50:02 AM UTC-5 Scott wrote:

Jim,

Your bikes are immaculate and down right gorgeous! Does each have its own bedroom in the house?!

Will you, please, share pictures of your cockpits? I'm in a state of ponder regarding my Atlantis' cockpit direction.

And more pictures of the Glorious, PLEASE??? That's my fave!

Happy Holidays,

Scott

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/11f3cf60-ebfd-405a-8eaf-1e6c4830b974n%40googlegroups.com.

[Masa]

Jim, thank you for your message! It was really interesting to read how you compare the "shorter" wheelbase Rivs and the current longer ones.

It's fun to compare and study (even being obsessed sometimes) about the geometries but on the other hand as you quoted there are many factors beyond numbers. That's why Grant (and other bike makers) tries to update and recreate the bikes and we can enjoy them.

I'm looking forward to hear from you how you update your Atlantis!

Masa

2022年12月12日月曜日 4:34:12 UTC+9 J J:

[Garth]

While I don't own any Riv road bike I was reading the commentary about the Legolas having notably less drop than the usual road Riv. The Legolas is/was sorta presented as a 'Cross frame, yes ? Cross frame implying a higher BB, neutral handling and cantilever brakes. My custom Franklin is rather like that, about 70mm drop, cantilever brakes, 45.5cm stays, neutral handling. My only other currently ridden bike is a Bombadil with it's 80mm drop and noticeable wheel flop, and that to me, still feels odd especially when I first get on it after riding the Franklin. Cornering high speed on twisty turns is also weird, where the Franklin is absolutely thrilling in it's ability to corner high speed and respond with ease to the most subtle of bodily inputs, be it from upper or lower body. What could be considered "twitch-a-bility" I liken as magi-bility in that it responds with precision to every nuance of the body instantly with ease. Like riding a horse that loves to run Wild and Free. There's no "auto-correct" resistance like I feel on my Bombadil, which I get the intention in theory, but in practicality I'd rather have thrilling/responsive than safe/resistant every day of the week. With "safe" comes restrictions and limitations, in the "human non-sensical way". The thing is such doesn't "make" one safe anymore than "unsafe" without them. 

I have an affinity with racing frames, European ones mostly, save a Fuji which was my first. So that surely colors the angle of this story.They all have that thrilling quality of ease of line changing and maneuverability which is required when riding in a ever moving group of riders and road furniture. 

The Legolas frame as it is doesn't fit me though as it's much too short in reach, as are most Rivs. So while I have no direct experience with it, I love a good a story .... and who doesn't ? !  

[MoVelo]

I find this topic very interesting. Hope you don't mind if I indulge myself here a bit and solicit an opinion or three.

While I love both the Legolas and Rambouillet, I purchased the Ram first as a used frame, due to the high praise it received on this and other forums. I've had it for over 10 years now and have not grown tired of it's utility, comfort and looks. It's a bike I can ride all day and not feel abused in any way and is well suited to the type of rides I most often do. It's not the lightest steel bike I own but it is probably my favorite and the one I most often ride. Even tho the weight of the frame is not much of a consideration for this audience; it seems to me that it could be one metric of an informed  opinion, and while it won't divulge the tubing spec, it might give a slight clue. Remarkably I neglected to weigh the frame when I acquired it and simply put it together and rode it. I guess I was probably excited to have it in hand. Anyway, it needs to undergo a cleaning and inspection this winter and so I'll put it on the scale and have that information for consideration.

When I saw a very lightly used Legolas come up for sale, given it's unicorn like aura, I jumped on it. Figuring I'd give it a try and probably get my money back if it failed me.  It is a different bike than the Ram in many respects, geometry being one. I suspect the tubing spec'd is quite different too, but I have no knowledge of how or in what way. When it came to me it had a non-threaded steer tube. This prevented me from being able to easily raise the bars to a desirable height. I know there are extenders I could have used, but being the vain cyclist I am I resisted. So for several years I rode the bike and always felt it was 'stiff'. Comparing it to the other steel bikes I owned, rode and enjoyed, I was perplexed at why it felt so stiff and unyielding. I just assumed it being mainly intended as a cross racer, it gave up the some on the comfort side of the equation. This year I finally decided to have the steerer threaded, and found myself amazed at what that little difference made in the bikes riding characteristics. Legolas is a happy, repsonsive elf now, and less of the stern unyielding elf it was before. I have to ask myself, and you if you've managed to hang on this long, how can something as simple as this change make such a difference? 

The bars on the Legolas are a bit higher now and level with the seat as with all the rest of my bikes. The threaded steerer obviously allows the bars to easily be raised to a better position with (in my opinion) a much better looking stem. 

Has the flexibility of the gooseneck stem really changed the feel of the bike? Does the bike actually ride better or is my mind convincing me that because it looks better it rides better? 

J 'inquisitive on a cold December morning' P

[Piaw Na]

Threadless stem systems are much stiffer than the traditional threaded systems. It's the first thing I notice when switching bikes other than tires. Though I will note that I seem to be more sensitive to bike handling than others --- people claim that they can't tell the difference between frames with 5mm differences in BB drop and I can tell even before I measure the bikes.

[Joe Bernard]

You had the stiffness of the steerer as your "quill", plus there was less quill effect as your stem/bars were lower. You're probably feeling the flex of that new taller and less stiff stem. 

On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 10:07:09 AM UTC-8 MoVelo wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

James: No need to apologize at all; you answered my question thoroughly and clearly --many  thanks. Interesting comparison. I liked the way that my blue Ram handled, but it felt a bit "sedate" compared to my customs; perhaps the Legolas would be just enough quicker. And you say it takes 42s, which I think would be just fat enough as an all rounder sweet spot size for firm dirt and pavement.

Not that I'll have a chance to test ride a Legolas, but it's nice to think out loud.

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I'd further suspect the act of simply raising the bars may additionally contribute to some kind of anatomical/physiological relief.  In other words, maybe allowing additional flex within your own system that may not have been nearly as present with lower bars/posture.  This is purely un-informed, non-scientific, speculation but having experienced several fit issues of my own (primarily from just having too small frames for too long) I've wondered whether some experiences of perceived stiffness may have been more or less resulting from or increased by already present muscular tension from a less than desirable riding posture/postion/grip, etc.  

I tried numerous builds across a rotation of frames over a rather short period of time before settling into my current small stable.  Some of these short lived builds were just for fun, or to practice wrenching/maintenance/troubleshooting, or just make use of parts/frames that fell into my hands at the time, but I definitely found some that just didn't work or feel right, without ever being able to directly attribute the source.  It was a challenge to directly compare some, as a few became nothing more than a seasonal special/flavor of the month or quickly moved into other hands after build was complete (for a few hand me downs built out of necessity and fueled by a growing parts stash.)  In hindsight there were some missed opportunities there as some builds were rather impulsive with an abundance of time/parts and lots of swapping/scavenging so occasionally one build would be fully abandoned to feed another but I definitely felt those quill vs. threadless flex differences on some but not as much as expected on others.

JP, out of curiosity, has the rest of the Legolas build otherwise remained the same or were the steerer mods accompanied with further parts changes?

As for my response/approach to the OP's initial question I guess I'd echo the work and play sentiments mentioned above.  I already own a Clem H as one of my theoretical two Rivs and it truthfully covers all of my immediate and realistic cycling needs, whether for work/utility or play.  If adding a 2nd to complement the Clem it would likely be a fully lugged country-bike with the Clem serving as the more utilitarian hillibike.  I do not commute by bike but most rides these days are for brief and local leisure rides when time permits or errand running.  The fully lugged countrybike I suppose I'd look to build as a simpler, lighter go-fast type bike but with the ability to load it up when necessary.  Just not fully racked or anything.  As mentioned in another thread, right around the time the 65cm Clem H was on the verge of being released I was seriously considering investing in a Hillborne or Hilsen as a one Riv and one bike solution, but I was very pleased to discover the big Clem was forthcoming and joined the presale without much hesitation.  I've since acquired two old, x-large frames that have been great as countrybike stand-ins with builds that would easily transfer or at least inspire a fresh build on something like the current Hillborne (I especially like that limeolive) or MIT A.Homer Hilsen but I'm really awaiting/anticipating the Roaduno release since I still can't shake the single speed bug and it's really suited my local terrain and riding habits:  mostly flat, multi-use paths, pavement, gravel with some occasional off-road/underbiking, but nothing technical aside from a ridiculously short stretch in the local park system which has actually been the single downside of the Clem (it's sheer size has made navigating the handful of tight spots on the short strip of single track a challenge compared to my old 26" rigid MTB and short-lived hardtail/full suspension experiments.)

Brian Cole

Lawrence NJ

[MoVelo]

Patrick-yes that 'sedate' feeling is a good way of explaining the Ram vs Legolas. 'Twitchy' maybe is a bit too negative for the Legolas. I steer mainly with my hips to innate a turn and both bikes then 'fall' into and complete the turn. The Ram is just a tiny bit slower at this than the Legolas. The fact that the Ram can fit 650x42s with fenders, has an additional water bottle mount and easily accommodates racks makes me love it and want to keep it for a long time. I certainly did not make a long range plan to have these two somewhat similar bikes in my life but here they are. Lovely to look at and lovely to ride. 

Brian- yes, the threading of the steerer tube and switching to a quill stem is the only component change I made to the bike. I believe you are correct in suggesting that raising the bars contributed to the difference. It continues to amaze me the subtle and sometimes minute changes made and their subsequent effect. Trying to quantify differences is complicated and I suspect a fair bit of subjectiveness creeps into the equation.  Your 'experiments' sound similar to mine. 

Now that I have these two dialed, I too have the single speed bug. Thankfully $$ I already have a couple of frame options hanging in my garage.

[Masa]

Garth & JP, your posts convinced me that old Riv models such as Legolas and Rambouillet must have some charm!

I'm only familiar with the current line up so going to dig the old catalogs carefully during the new year time.

Also now I'm curious about single speed as well since I read Will's blog about his SS Roadini.

Maybe I'll give it a try with my Surly Cross Check first to see if it's my style or not.

Masa

2022年12月16日金曜日 23:50:27 UTC+9 MoVelo:

[Patrick Moore]

Brian: I understand and largely sympathize with your proposed 2-bike stable, at least as to categories if not as to exact models: nice-handling bike that can carry errand loads and is also multi-surface capable, and a nice ss road bike, tho' for the last I'd have 2 or 3 wheels including fixed/free and hub gear wheels which would I think extend a ss's uses and also compensate for age and diminished ability and interest in grunting a 70" or 76" fixed gear up a 7-mile-long hill.

Aside: If one were limited to just 1 Rivendell, and that Rivendell had to be a gofast road bike, then in addition to extra multigear wheels one might also rig up a QR attachment system for a capacious Saddlesack or whatever they call them now. Again, if forced (much to my dismay) to choose "just one or your like," I'd choose my gofast with occasional saddlebag and a couple of 2-speed wheels.

To all: regarding the contrast between Ram and Legolas. I owned a 2nd gen Ram so I know how it feels. I had thought that the Legolas might feel more nimble and flexible and spritely, but others report otherwise; is it just the stiff clamp-on stem? I'm very interested in hearing more about how the Legolas compares with the Ram, the old Road Standard, the LongLow, Roadeo, Quickbeam, RoadUno, and others of the more road-type Rivendell product mix.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 12:20 PM Coal Bee Rye Anne <lionsrug...@gmail.com> wrote:

... As for my response/approach to the OP's initial question I guess I'd echo the work and play sentiments mentioned above.  I already own a Clem H as one of my theoretical two Rivs and it truthfully covers all of my immediate and realistic cycling needs, whether for work/utility or play.  If adding a 2nd to complement the Clem it would likely be a fully lugged country-bike with the Clem serving as the more utilitarian hillibike. ...

... I'm really awaiting/anticipating the Roaduno release since I still can't shake the single speed bug and it's really suited my local terrain and riding habits:  mostly flat, multi-use paths, pavement, gravel with some occasional off-road/underbiking ...

Brian Cole

Lawrence NJ

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks. That might mean that the Legolas as just that extra little bit of eagerness that I missed in my Ram (29 mm Paris Roubaix open tubulars, so top quality tires); I daresay that's because my Riv Road customs have been built for 559 bsd wheels which are quicker to turn because about 2 1/2" shorter and noticeably lighter than equivalent 700C wheels. OTOH, a 650b'd Ram might be nice indeed.

[Chris Block]

Funny to find this thread, as I’m down to two Rivendells (peak was 4), and am torn about them.  One is a blue Rambouillet. 54, Ultegra build with fenders.  Just a great bike!  Not super light or fast, but a great all day ride.  Still has a 53/39 (everyone should move on to compacts these days if the circumstance presents itself).  Got it on EBay, had a large bad scratch on the top tube which I filled badly with nail polish.  I think the scratch was the best thing that ever happened to the bike- since it wasn’t perfect, I used it a lot for commuting, riding in bad weather, etc…

  My other Riv is a Road Custom, serial# R72M.  Again bought on EBay from someone who had ordered it and never was able to ride due to health issues.  Can’t remember the date, early 2000’s?  Think I paid $2100, including Berthoud bags front and rear.  First class build, with Phil Wood hubs and bottom bracket, Suntour alpha-5000 7-speed drivetrain, funky Kelly Takeoff shifter mounts (see pics), all Nitto stem/bars/seatpost/water bottle cages. TA Cyclotouriste triple crank. Joe Bell paint job. Who fills in the braz-on windows inside the chainstay?!!  Came with a Berthoud rear rack and bag, still available at 400 euros…. Sorry to gush on but it’s such a singular build of the time, and once a year or two I get it out determined to sell but then I look at it and can’t bring myself to do it.  In my dreams I’m retired, (soon). using this bike for fair-weather 8-hour group centuries, with everyone oohing and ahhing.

[Ryan]

Trust me Chris...they will ooh and ah and drool. 

[Joe Bernard]

Joe Bell is amazing. I don't have a chainstay bridge to fill on my custom (it's a kickstand plate) but my paint has red fills and he put red on the circles inside the fork. No one is going to see that!