Re: Sizing question for "in between" PBH measurement

[DavidP]

Oooh, a new Sam - exciting!

1) Send Riv an email and get their recommendation, they're great with this stuff.

2) I'm a similar height but have an 87cm PBH. With your torso length I'm guessing you'll want more reach, the concern is the standover on the 54cm Sam if you max out the tires. Either way you'll probably want a long stem on that Albatross. My 58cm top tube Albatross bike has a 120mm stem. The drop tube bikes (Susie, Platypus, Clem) are great for getting a longer fit without worrying about standover; I'm on a 60cm Platypus and the reach is luxurious.

-Dave

On Thursday, April 18, 2024 at 10:43:16 AM UTC-4 Robert Calton wrote:

Haven't had luck pinning down a used bike this last week, so I'm thinking I might try and buy a new Sam in May/June with the refresh and I don't know if the 51 or 54 frame size is the right choice. Compared to my current bike, a 55cm Salsa Vaya's standover of 77.6cm and top tube of 55cm...

51 Sam standover: 78.6 (+1cm from Vaya)
51 Sam top tube: 56.5 (+1.5cm from Vaya) 

54 Sam standover: 82.0 (+4.4cm from Vaya) 
54 Sam top tube:  58 (+3cm from Vaya) 

An 83.8 PBH was the highest measurement out of the 10 or so times I measured. Most of the time it was 81.2 - 82.5 range. I'm 5'11 with a 30" inseam. Riv says a 51 Sam is 79-83 and a 54 is 83-86. 

I would like to run Albatross bars and be comfy about it. 

Which frame size should I choose? 

[Johnny Alien]

I am between sizes as well and my general rule is...if I want a more traditional setup/fit (maybe with drop bars) I size down. If I want to go laid back, more sweptback style I go up. With your PBH if you want drops go with the 51 otherwise the 54 might be best. If you want to size up but the standover gives you pause then consider a Platypus. I understand the advice to call Rivendell but (from my experience) they are almost always going to push you into a go larger direction and that has not historically always worked for me.

[Brian Turner]

I agree with Johnny. Think about how you mostly want this bike set up and size accordingly. You had mentioned wanting an Albatross bar setup, so if it were me, I would go with the 54cm and longer top tube that will play nicely with the swept-back bars and longer stem required for said bars. I also have a PBH that's between 83-84, even though I'm a little shorter than you. If I were buying a new Sam, I would purchase the 54cm size, and I would probably also run some sort of swept-back cockpit. I already have a drop bar Riv, and a fat-tired Riv, and those are the only two factors that would make me want to size down to a 51cm.

Brian

Lex KY

[Bill Lindsay]

I'm 5'10", shorter than the OP, and I think I'm between sizes on the Hillborne....but not between 51 and 54.  I think I'm between 54 and 57 on the Hillborne.  

My Saddle Height is 75.5cm, so my PBH is probably in the 85-86 range.  I own an older 56cm Hillborne which is perfect, used to run a 56cm Bombadil which was perfect. 

When I went to buy an original run Leo Roadini, the Riv guys leaned towards a 54.  I was surprised because that felt like a significant downsize.  I disagreed with them and got a 57 and it was terrific, albeit with no standover clearance.  If I had to replace my 56 Hillborne with a current Hillborne I'd almost definitely get a 57.  

Does that make me ever more of a weird upsizer than the reputation Riv has with people like Johnny?  I'm not sure.  The idea of a 5'11" human on a 51cm Hillborne doesn't seem right to me.  

Is your Salsa Vaya a perfect fit?  do you want to share a photo of your setup?

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Bill Lindsay]

OOPS! the OP deleted their post.  It's worth pointing out to people that this Google Group is basically an email activity.  You can delete a post, but it's deleted the same way an email is deleted.  It's out there.  

BL in EC

[ian m]

It's pretty wild the differing opinions people have on upsizing or downsizing based on cockpit choices. I'm with Bill on this, and I think Riv tends to suggest smaller sizes than necessary, maybe because there's still consumer pushback to running shorter stems? Everyone thinks they need a 10cm for optimum handling or something. 

But why would one aim for a 51 Hillborne to use drops and a 54 to use sweptback bars? The reach difference is 6mm! That's less than the difference between the stem you have and the next size up or down. 

Maybe it's better from a consumer happiness standpoint to have customers on a too small bike, as they'll feel more comfortable with the extra standover clearance, and Riv has moved far more upright than even the recent past. When in-between two sizes I'll always go for the largest I can standover (on a roadish bike anyways)

[Johnny Alien]

With the way these bikes are designed the 51 SH I owned seemed as large or larger than the 54cm Rambo that I owned at the same time. For road riding I would not have wanted to go larger. But I also admit that I don't like having no standover clearance so thats part of it for me. One of the big reasons I like step-over/thru frames. But IMO Riv's already have fairly long reach and (obviousl) long wheelbases so moving up for a drop bar setup just seems way to stretches out. Honestly I prefer the 50cm Gallop I have for road stuff to the 51cm SH I had.

[Bill Lindsay]

Johnny said: "the 51 SH I owned seemed as large or larger than the 54cm Rambo"

I agree with that.  A 51 Sam is "bigger" than a 54cm Rambouillet, IMO.  My comment had to do with the OP's height at 5'11".  A 5'11" person would probably do best on a 60cm Ram.  At 5'10" I'd pick a 60cm if you gave me any size I choose.  A 57 Hillborne would be a little bigger than a 60 Ram, and a 54 Hilborne would be a little smaller.  The OP deleted their post so it's maybe a thread we should let die.  

Here's a comment to those who are super confused by the numbers associated with bike sizing:  it is super confusing.  Different people have different approaches to normalize bike fitting.  The method I use is pretty common, and pretty contemporary, and that is Stack and Reach.  I keep my Stack and Reach numbers in my pocket and go from there.  The numbers I use are 600mm for Stack and 390mm for Reach for a roadish drop bar setup.  I have a ton of bikes, and the names of their sizes range from 47 all the way to 62, but are all where I want them to be in Stack and Reach.  Looking for those numbers the 54 is right there in Stack for 5'10" me, but it's a little short in the Reach department so I'd need to run a longer stem with drop bars and forget about it for any kind of upright bar setup.  The extra reach of the 57 would make an upright bar setup more straightforward, and I could slam the stem because the stack is high.  If you have a bike that "fits" I think it's a really good idea to figure out the Stack and Reach on that bike and use it for comparison.  The OP on this thread said they have a Salsa Vaya.  Looking over that geo-chart, I can say for certain I would not ride a Salsa Vaya in any size.  None of them gets me in the neighborhood of where I'd want to be in Stack and Reach.  I think that's another important piece of knowledge: to know that not every bike model on Earth comes in "your size" and to know how to not-buy the wrong bike.  In 2024 where there are fewer and fewer "test rides", that's an important ability.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Drew Fitchette]

Echoing Bill on here. I also look at stack and reach, and have nearly the same dimensions as the OP

I had a 53 Atlantis from the last run as it was correct for my PBH as I’m between the 53 and 55, after deep dives on stack and reach(in particular) I realized what made the bike feel small to me. I should’ve sized up to a 55 instead, and similar to Bill have now scooped a 56 hillborne from another list member as it’s the biggest size non step over riv I can fit. 

Roman told me that the 54 Sam would feel bigger as far as standover(mostly due to the 700c wheels) but the bike might feel similar to the Atlantis for stack and the reach is shorter. He actually suggested a 60cm Plat with my seat slammed since I’m 6 ft tall. And I know Grant rides a 59cm Clem with only a slightly taller PBH than I have. 

All that to say, I think I’ll be sizing up henceforth as I like toscos or albatross bars usually and don’t mind the straddle heigh being close!

[Robert Calton]

OP here, apologies for deleting the post amidst the thoughtful conversation, I thought that I got the answer I needed and didn't want to clutter up the board :p 

Will at Riv suggested that I size up to the 54. 

The context was: compared to my current bike, a drop-bar 55cm Salsa Vaya's standover of 77.6cm and top tube of 55cm...

51 Sam standover: 78.6 (+1cm from Vaya)
51 Sam top tube: 56.5 (+1.5cm from Vaya) 

54 Sam standover: 82.0 (+4.4cm from Vaya) 
54 Sam top tube:  58 (+3cm from Vaya) 

An 83.8 PBH was the highest measurement out of the 10 or so times I measured. Most of the time it was 81.2 - 82.5 range. I'm 5'11 with a 30" inseam. Riv says a 51 Sam is 79-83 and a 54 is 83-86. That nearly 2" increase of standover height gives me pause, to be honest. But eh, seems that the wisdom of the riding community suggests sizing up. 

[Johnny Alien]

I would never question Rivendell's knowledge on anything at all but like I said their method of sizing bikes for people does not work for me personally. If you are comfortable on the 55 Salsa the 54 SH will feel a lot bigger. The 51 will likely feel pretty close. But I don't want to discourage sizing up especially if you are diving into the sweptback movement the kids are into these days.

[Robert Calton]

That does make sense. I wonder if a 130 stem with the Albatross bars on the 51 would give enough knee clearance, because I definitely want to run those bars. 

[Johnny Alien]

That I can't say BUT if you go with the 54 might I suggest the Billie bars? They are similar to the Albatross but go back a bit further. Quite luxurious.

[Mathias Steiner]

This is a useful discussion.I looked up Sam geometry for myself. The bikes that fit me have top tube lengths of 56 to 59 cm, and they come in seat tube lengths from 52 to 64 cm -- that last one a Cannondale ST600 in 25", great riding bike, that gives me basically zero standover clearance. I ride it with a Nitto Noodle and a 60 mm long Technomic stem.

The 57 cm Sam has an "effective "top-tube length of 60 cm.

The 54 cm has 58 cm, right in the middle of my accustomed range.

My Bruce Gordon/Taiwan BLT has just about the same geometry as my Cannondale T400 in 23" size -- 58.4 cm top tube, and those bikes fit really well.
The BLT is the one with the 52 cm (c-to-c) seat tube. I talked to the man himself whne I bought it, because that seemed so small, and he convinced me (*).

So for me, 6 foot nothing and 89 cm PBH, I'd get the 54 Sam since I want the drop bar, never mind the Rivendell sizing charts.

They can say "works great with drops or upright bars," and not really be wrong," but it's hardly the same bike then.

 

I took this picture on my winter beater to illustrate the point. There's 10-15 cm difference in the hand positions between the drop bar (VO Randonneur) and the Nitto Northrads bar, which has fairly mild width and backsweep.  With an Albatross or Bosco, I might want the 60 cm Sam with the  61.5 top tube and the 87.9 cm standover.

 

cheers -mathias

(*) Bruce Gordon was nice to me!
Wasn't there a T shirt with that slogan?
We lost an icon when he died.

[Tim Bantham]

Without taking a deep dive into the geometry numbers I wanted to share my personal experience.  For reference my other Rivs are a 62 Sam and a 60 Platypus. My PBH is 93.5 cm. Going by Rivendell's approach to sizing I ordered a 61.5 Homer earlier this year. I ordered the Platypus and the AHH at the same time and asked Will to hold off on shipping them because I was scheduled to be away from home for an extended period. My plan for the AHH was to use it as a drop bar road bike. While I was waiting for the bikes to ship I studied the geometry comparisons on Bike Insights of my 62 Sam and the 61.5 AHH. After much hand wringing I became considered that the reach was longer then I was comfortable with. After discussing it with Will I decided to size down to the 58 Homer knowing that this would be a drop bar set up. Comparing the 58 Homer to the 62 Sam that I already own the geometry was pretty close. I am riding the Homer with a 8 cm stem and Noodle bars. The Sam has a 5 Cm stem and Crust X Nitto Shaka bars.  There is a little more seat post showing than I normally would have but at the end of the day I am perfectly happy with the fit of the 58 Homer. If you have uncertainty about sizing my recommendation is to consult geo sites like Bike Insights but it's really important to talk to the guys at Rivendell. They do a great job with size recommendation.

[Bill Lindsay]

Bike Insights is terrific way to visualize Stack and Reach.  It's excellent.  The fact they have a huge "inventory" of bike data makes it particularly convenient, especially if you have a bike you love that's already in there.  It can get really tricky for some Rivendells because Riv doesn't have "model years" or batch identifiers, so sometimes you may be looking at the wrong thing.  

BL in EC

[Richard Rose]

Right on cue I was just comparing (via bike insights) my Clem L size 52 to the 54.5 AHH. The upcoming Roaduno is reportedly “essentially a Homer”. I have been wondering if I would be able to achieve a Roaduno fit similar to my Clem. It would appear that might be difficult. Stack is good on the AHH, so I can get the bars high. But the reach! 99mm, nearly 10cm shorter? And I use a 135 FacePlater on the Clem in order to get the Bosco’s in a good place. And the wheelbase; Clem’s is more than 17cm longer!! I know the Roaduno & Clem are by design markedly different animals. But this certainly proves the worth of the kind of information available from bike insights. Much to my disappointment, the Roaduno might not be for me.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 19, 2024, at 11:53 AM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

Bike Insights is terrific way to visualize Stack and Reach.  It's excellent.  The fact they have a huge "inventory" of bike data makes it particularly convenient, especially if you have a bike you love that's already in there.  It can get really tricky for some Rivendells because Riv doesn't have "model years" or batch identifiers, so sometimes you may be looking at the wrong thing.  

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[Bill Lindsay]

This is exactly what I meant above when I mentioned the skill "how not to buy the wrong bike".  That's very good work you've done.  

BL in EC