List Status Thoughts: So... here we are Saturday morning

[Cyclofiend Jim]

First - I want to thank everyone who took the time to share their views directly or through the other "OT" thread. It is humbling to know that you care enough about this community to have strong feelings, and it feels like everyone has the underlying desire to make this group a better place. 

That got me thinking about what purpose this group serves.

At the time of its creation, it was, in my mind, a refuge. 

I used the analogy of a "neutral ground" social gathering place - a pub where everyone left their weapons outside and agreed to find similar interests rather than inflame differences. 

The tone and tenor of the internet at that time had shifted a bit from the generally helpful tone (of say Sheldon Brown's expansive resources) to a more caustic approach (anyone remember rec.bicycles...?) and I felt it was important to create a supportive refuge. (There were other issues too which had to do with RBW's email list and such, but I don't want to digress...).

Things have continued to change since 2007, of course. It's very difficult to have a reasonable conversation using only printed words in the best of times. Recently we have not been experiencing the best of times. 

So, that's what we have here, today. These times. Our group. 

Does this group matter? Is it important? Is the idea of a refuge viable? Is everyone so wired and induced to react that we cannot give one another the space to be wrong?

I'm not sure I can answer any of those questions today, and ultimately they are maybe not all that important. 

I do know the following:

- I have two blunt tools at my disposal for wrangling this group - deleting things and setting moderating levels for members. 

- I have limited time to manage this group (not a change - just a statement of fact).

- I can also remove members, though I've only had to do that a few times in the history of this group.

I've always felt this group isn't for everyone. iBob is a much more free-wheeling, broadly raucous group. I suspect there are groups and threads and gatherings on Discord, Facebook, TikTok, WhatsApp, twitter and a bunch of other places I'm not hip enough to know about, where bicycles are discussed alongside religion, politics, economic theory and other firey topics. 

This group - and the individual members who make it up - have lurched into and out of strong disagreement many times. Some of you I've known - through the old rec.bicycles groups - for more than 25 years. Which is kind of weird to write. So, I kind of shake my head and know that you'll self-correct, or understand a larger context where your most recent - and sometimes quite flippant and unfortunate - comment lives. But newer members may not know that, and don't understand us (any of us) to that degree.

I ask those of you who have been here a long time and remain active to act with a little more car before pressing "Post" or clicking "Send". Everyone is on edge right now and it doesn't take much to spark responses.

Which brings me back to wanting this group to remain a place of neutral ground. 

To that end, and to ratchet things down, here are a few thoughts:

- For the next month (through end of July), let's truncate our email "footer" - name is fine, location if you want, even what Rivendell you ride or lust for. But let's excise any exhaltations, quotes, passages, businesses, links or other non-name-rank-serial number level info. 

- Please do not start non-RBW _bicycle_  threads. I will likely simply delete them for a while.

- Ride reports encouraged, as always. It helps offset the buy/sell posts which proliferate here. 

Finally, a reminder - a thread continues only as long as people comment upon it. Nothing wrong with letting someone else have the last word.

Be well, stay safe.

- Jim / list admin

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Just to be clear... that should have been "...act with a little more _care_ before pressing "Post" or clicking "Send"."

Not encouraging people to obtain cars... ;^)

[rasterdogs]

Jim,

Thanks for the work you do to make this one of the forums that is focused and welcoming.

Jim Dobbins

[ANDREW ERMAN]

Thank you, Jim. I appreciate your thoughtful responsibility and communication. I am grateful for this group. Best, Andy 

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[Patrick Moore]

Very reasonable. Thanks, Jim.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[dougP]

Jim:

Thanks for the reminder.  This is indeed a refuge for me from the general current events of the day.  Personally, I get enough exposure to the larger world thru other sources, and come here for a bit of fresh air, expecting bike nerd topics to be discussed.  Thanks for keeping us OT.

Doug Peterson

On Saturday, June 6, 2020 at 10:20:58 AM UTC-7, Cyclofiend Jim wrote:

[Chris L]

One of the things I love about this group is that it is a refuge where for the most part, only bikes and related tangents are discussed.  

It bugs me when bicycle businesses (or any other, for that matter) inject their politics into their social media presence.  When I want to dive into that divisive crap, I go to Twitter.  Facebook and Instagram are for recreation and helpful information.  The RBW group also fits nicely into the latter category.

[franklyn]

Jim,

Appreciate what you do to keep the group going. We have "known" each other not quite 25 years, but I think I sent my first entry to your cyclofiend website in the mid 2000's. Since you own this group, your wish to keep the group insulated from exclusively rivendell-related threads rules the day. I suspect 90%+ of the threads would not come close to touching the boundary, though as someone who no longer owns any rivendell, whether I can start any thread is questionable by your current set of rules.

"Neutrality" is quite an artificial concept. I don't think that's quite the proper word here. I think many of us would readily acknowledge we have views, but what you ask us to do on this forum is to be "silent" about them here. However, I also think if the group wishes to really be "neutral", then applying and enforcing the rules fairly is important. Calling something "divisive crap" is decidedly not neutral.

As I said, I think 90%+ of threads will be fine, but rules are tested in the margin, so I just want to check out a few edge cases.

Is talking about Grant's blahg, if it does not pertain to Rivendell bikes directly, also off limit now?

What about a hypothetical ride report that includes the following observation: I was on the Capitol crown trail in Bethesda, MD, and saw a cyclist charged three teenagers who were posting fliers about a protest. Later I found out that the cyclist has been apprehended?

Could I include in my ride report hostility I encountered from motorists (there were definitely threads on how many times we have been 'coal rolled' by diesel trucks)? How about if those hostility were racially motivated? Is that too much for this "refuge" then?

I don't know what percent of list members are people of color, women, and/or members of LGBTQ community. I guess my point of asking that question is that when I ride, I encounter things that relate to the core issues of what people are protesting about. Should we exclude those from our ride reports?

Finally, I just want to echo what Jonathan D. said in the other thread, the expectation to be able to insulate oneself from the "noises" is a form of priviledge. I understand that people want to maintain that privilege here, and in the context of a bicycle group this maintenance is harmless enough. But it it's priviledge nonetheless.

Btw, even our names are political and have systemic racism in it. I came to this country in the early 90s as a teenager. Before 9-11, immigration officers and government workers would openly encourage people to pick americanized names because their native names are "too hard to pronounce". "Franklyn" borned out partially from that, but also is created from my internalized colonization, as an attempt to assimilate and fit in.

I do value the group interactions and the threads, and I want to reiterate my appreciation for what Jim has done. And all that are not in conflict with my wish for the group to be more reflective of the time and history we are living through.

Best,
Franklyn

[Deacon Patrick]

Thank you, Jim, first and foremost for this group and the love you pour into in, and thus us, through the years. I will strive to abide by these strictures, with the caveat that I may forget to erase the bits of my signature when I start a thread by email, and understand if those posts are deleted. I'd like to propose one addition, but first describe what I have loved in the past about this group and miss now.

- We are a diverse bunch and I greatly value that. Rivendell as a company attracts folks who approach many aspects of life differently from the main stream, yet we are far from homogenous. I miss the off topic wanderings and have learned a great deal from them.

- Off topic wanderings used to be a rare example of civil discourse. I miss that, and believe the world misses that. We needn't agree to share the journey, and I personally benefit greatly from sharing the journey with folks who civilly disagree yet value each others human dignity in their discourse.

Thus, in line with your questions "does this group matter?" and "is it needed?," I propose a monthly or quarterly "Calm Colloquy for Summer 2020" that allows for self moderated civil discourse on any and all topics with the singular rule to strive to uphold all peoples' human dignity.

Such a thread would act as a pressure valve, a shining, though sometimes muddy, example of what civil discourse is. It would not be a thread to vent anger, but instead an invitation to process reactions into mindful thought and humbly ask questions and express viewpoints in ... calm colloquy. It would give a place folks could point to when off topic opinions sneak into other threads as a more appropriate place to express them and humbly listen and learn what others think.

The first post in each "Calm Colloquy" thread would contain the following:

"This thread is for calm, reasoned discussion of any and all topics with the single rule of each person striving to uphold the dignity of every other person to have a civil discourse of divergent thought, opinion, and viewpoint. It is self-moderated, meaning there is no moderator and we are each moderators. Please do not vent raw thoughts or reactions here, but take time to calmly express your own viewpoint while simultaneously seeking to understand other's perspectives even and especially when they differ from your own."

Such a thread is easily ignored by those who do not wish to participate, either by skipping it on the we interface, or by creating an email rule filter for topics containing "calm colloquy."

One of the gifts of riding a bicycle is it gives time for processing events of the day and thinking through how I should respond. This is, I believe, an inherent aspect of human powered motion. It is a loss to not be able to discuss this with a diverse group of people who share this activity.

I am happy to start such a thread, but only with your permission, Jim. This would be an experiment to try for a month and discontinue if it fails.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Jim M.]

On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 11:22:08 AM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:

I propose a monthly or quarterly "Calm Colloquy for Summer 2020"

A big "no" vote from me on that proposal. Polite discourse has always been a list requirement, and the list can't even keep to that guideline over the subject of helmets. Way too many internet hotheads on the list (and in the world) to start a thread that purposely contains potentially incendiary topics.

Thanks, Jim, and Happy Trails everyone!

jim m

walnut creek, ca

[Joe Bernard]

Also no. I have all kinds of thoughts on things that some will agree with and some - even people who like me! - consciously avoid on my Twitter feed. That and a hundred other outlets are where this kind of thing belongs, it's not needed on a Riv forum.

[Steve Palincsar]

There's no list that can.  It's as incendiary a topic for a bicycling list as you could come up with.

On 6/7/20 3:36 PM, Jim M. wrote:

Polite discourse has always been a list requirement, and the list can't even keep to that guideline over the subject of helmets.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[☆ PaulB ☆]

I’m new here and really happy to find this group. Please keep it alive!

Buying and selling is helpful, but I’ve been using I to look at other builds and get ideas for a couple rob frames I’m building up. And I bought an older model Sam H double top tube here too, a frame I’d been jonesing after forever.

Also love the ride lust reports.

Thank you 🙏

Paul

[John Phillips]

Hi Jim,

    I'm in agreement with everything you wrote. Thank you.

    I do have a question about limiting posts, specifically your request to "Please do not start non-RBW _bicycle_  threads." In the past, some of RBW's Blug & Blahg posts incited some very heated exchanges (i.e. helmets, zip ties, hard boiled eggs, flipping a bike upside down to change a tire), and now we have Grant's Blahg about racism. So my question is: what is and is not RBW-related? I'm not being facetious, because it seems RBW is kind of a controversial business.

    I'm not going to start any discussions, but I was wondering?

Thanks,

John Phillips

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Franklyn - 

Thank you for your thoughtful post and questions. 

My greatest concern is that everyone is raw enough right now that it doesn't take much to trigger things. 

I guess I'm asking people to de-escalate rather than intensify any conversations, should that choice be available to them. 

Regarding "neutral" - I'd again emphasize "neutral ground" rather than "neutrality". In the sense of not arguing about that here rather than not having a position. 

As far as what's appropriate to this group. It's difficult to answer in the abstract. Most of the time we all disagree a bit without it becoming quite personal. Lately that has not been the case. It might be difficult to talk about GP's posts, ride reports to demonstrations or other topics being influenced by what's going on. I just ask that we give one another a bit of space.  

There's never been a requirement to own a Rivendell to be a part of this community. As it says above (or at least above on my page right now):
RBW Owners Bunch - Dedicated to the discussion of Rivendell Bicycles and products
Ride reports encouraged, as is a respectful, supportive and polite tone in all posts.
This group is not endorsed by Rivendell Bicycle Works.  You don't need to own one - just an interest in RBW designs is enough to join in.

That's kind of the "center line". Other stuff less so. Yes, that is a bit of a vague answer. But I've always felt that the "respectful, supportive and polite tone" was what helped to make this a good place to hang out.

Again, Franklyn, thank you for your comments. 

- Jim

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Thank you Deacon.

Given the tension and tone of the world right now, I'd rather not try that experiment for a little bit. 

I'm not necessarily saying it's off the table, but I'd prefer to table that at the moment. 

- Jim

On Sunday, June 7, 2020 at 11:22:08 AM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Hi John - 

Please see my response to Franklyn's post, which covers most of what you mention.

- Jim

[Deacon Patrick]

Understood, Jim. Thank you. Soothing balm makes a lot of sense. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Steve Palincsar]

Grant starts a number of wildly off-topic hares.  Take just one example: "Eat Bacon, Don't Jog."   We have in the past in effect taken the position that if Grant Petersen wrote about it, it's on topic, no matter what kind of wild and crazy notion it is, or how more or less it might be related to bicycles at all, never mind Rivendell bicycles in particular.   I think if you want to be able to draw the line and maintain that pure focus, that's got to change. 

[Joe Bernard]

I'm not sure Jim ever took a position about the Blahg. I did and thought it was on topic and hoo boy was I wrong, it's a personal blog about all kinds of stuff that's probably best handled on Rivbike's Instagram or an email to Grant. There are conversations I've had here related to it that I wouldn't entertain today.

Joe Bernard