Can we talk about long wheelbases?

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I have wanted to start this thread for weeks. Fearing controversy, not desiring to start fights, and worried that staff at Riv will read this, I never mustered up the guts. But the long wheelbase bike topic has come up in several threads now, and maybe we should just have the discussion. People are wanting to buy these bikes, and since most don’t live near a dealer, we need to help each other out regarding bike fit.

I got a new Clem L (unless you have been living under a ROCK you know this since it’s all I talk about. Go ahead, I dare you to ask me about the color of paint that it has. 😂) and it’s nothing like the other Clems I’ve known and loved. Why? Because it has an even longer wheelbase than than its long-wheelbase predecessors.

Recently, Rivendell pointed us to an Ask Me Anything with Grant on Reddit. It was a wall of text and I read it. Folks asked their most pressing questions and Grant graciously answered them. Over and over and over again long wheelbase bikes were brought up, and Grant offered his opinion. Longer bikes are more stable, Cadillac-like, comfortable, etc. The opposite of twitchy, short-wheelbase bikes. We know this and most of us will accept it.

BUT...what I am dying to know is this: how long can you go before it is no longer an improvement?

Example: My 52 Clementine was much more comfortable than my 55 Betty Foy. Like it was tailor-made for me alone. The Betz was totally fine, no knocks against it, but the Clementine was just more plush. So, I agree with Grant - longer was better.

The problem came with my Clem L, the 2019 version that had had its geometry changed. I didn’t know I was getting a different bike. I was surprised when I had to buy (several) different stems and a new long wheelbase bar for my Saris rack. It’s been a lot of adjustment, and I’ve been frustrated. If I understand correctly, several Rivendell models have been lengthened as of late.

The burning question I have: Can anyone tell us if the new longer bikes are better or worse than the previous (also long) versions? We know the theory, what of the reality? I’m thinking especially of the Clems, as they were already SO long. But I think Atlantis people will also have something to say...

I wanted to have this discussion because I genuinely want to know how the newest long bikes are working out for folks. But I also want to let others know that there are some things to consider if you get one of these new iterations. Will a 52 Clem fit on public transport? I think no. Will it fit on your vehicle hitch bike rack? Mine won’t. Will it be difficult for you to park your long bike in a public rack? Can you back your bike out of your garage/shed easily at this new length? What if you are right between sizes? Rivendell would have you go up, I’m not sure I wouldn’t have done better on the next size down.

Of course we can have this discussion and keep it kind, can’t we, Friends. It would be so horrible if Rivendell staff read this and saw a lot of inflammatory remarks. I think we’re allowed to have a decent and informative chat, and undoubtedly some people will find it helpful. Plus, maybe Rivendell will find it useful. If the extra long bikes aren’t meeting expectations, maybe there will be changes to future bikes.

I did put 9 miles riding up a mountain with groceries in my front basket on the new Clem L, so I’m working our relationship!
Leah

[DHans]

Now I’m second guessing whether I want this generation of the Clem L. I may just BOLO for the previous model. This type of feedback isn’t mean and is much appreciated Leah.
Doug

[Clayton.sf]

I think the "where" of length matters. Very long chainstays are not something I like offroad as it prevents the front wheel to be lifted which can be problematic and unfun. My Jones plus LWB is a fantastic offroad bike with a long wheelbase, the front wheel can still easily be lifted. Taking a Cheviot or Clem on trails works too but not nearly as well due to the long stays that make lifting the front a chore at best.
Long stays do indeed smooth out the ride but if they are so long that they make the bike suitable only for smoother trails where that smoothness is less needed then what is the point?
Longer front center pkus puffy tires with short stem makes a lot more sense for offroad LWB bikes according to me.

Clayton Scott
HBG, CA

[tc]

It seems like folks missed the updated geo numbers on the latest batch of Clem L's.  I don't remember a blog post about them being longer in the cockpit, but maybe I missed it.  

Look at the ht angle, rake, top tube, and front-center dimensions of the latest L models vs. the H models (which still have the older 'shorter' geo's).

Tom

[Joe Bernard]

Uhh yeah, those numbers are... different.

[Roberta]

What I love about the ride of my 2016 Joe Appaloosa (my first Rivendell) is the cushy, smooth, dreamy experience.  I didn't understand at the time, it was because, partly, it had longer chain stays (at time of purchase, I couldn't even tell you what a chain stay, or a wheelbase, was).  All I know is that I loved the ride, and was willing to pay for it.  Two years later, I bought a second Rivendell, an A.Homer Hilsen which has shorter chain stays as compared to the Joe A, but still longer than non-Riv bikes, and it also rides really nicely.  Because of the wonderful ride quality of both bikes, I'm riding more than ever.  I love them and my Rivendell bikes and accoutrements.  I'm happier and ride more now, than pre-Riv.

The 51 cm Joe A. is wider than my compact car but not wider than most highway lanes.  I am careful driving with it in cities, through road construction with narrower lanes,  and near Jersey barriers.   Then, I test fit it on a city bus bike carrier.  It fit, but barely.  I'm so relieved about that.  Taking it on a train is more difficult than most bikes, but I'll put up with that for the ride.  I guess the price one pays for the dreamy ride.  The AHH is easier to travel with, so that is the bike of choice now, if I travel with a bike.

I am considering the new Cheviot for my retirement bike.  I expect that Rivendell will make this bike also with a longer wheelbase.  I hope they do, for the enhanced ride quality, but I also hope they don't go overboard with the length.  For me, if I cannot fit on a city bus bike rack, I won't be able to justify the bike.

Roberta, who lives in the city and and travels with her bike--by auto, by city commuter train and by city bus (I haven't tried it on Amtrak or long route buses)

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 7:43:56 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

[dougP]

No experience with Clem, I've ridden a 53cm LWB Atlantis around the trails near Rivendell, & have owned a 58cm Atlantis since '03.  They asked my saddle height, set it same as my '03, and away I went.  It fit as well as my own bike.  But then I'm a 42 regular guy who only has to have his pants cuffed, so not a tough fit.  On the trails & switchbacks, I didn't notice the extra length, and on pavement it rode better than mine (which I think rides darn good).  Nothing to add regarding racks, buses, etc. 

dougP

[Deacon Patrick]

I have the large Gus Boots Willsen fromt he first prototype run. It is sized differently from the production run in process (do not recall how), but it is a loooong wheel base, possibly among the longest of Rivs offerings, so on par with the Clem L '19. I also ride and love a Quickbeam (silver, last, run) and Hunqapillar (first run), which have a much tighter wheelbase. Here's what I've observed, and possibly learned (some conclusions are based on possibly too little understanding, so enlighten me. Grin.).

Long wheelbase bikes:

- ride stunningly on all surfaces

- are equally agile as shorter wheelbase bikes, just require a different line

- yes the front wheel is harder to hop over things, but there is nearly no need because of weight distribution of the bike. Yes, I still go over logs and rocks, far better than my Hunqapillar does.

- The GBW is the first bike I've bought with my PHB in the middle of the size chart. My previous bikes were "too big" for me. I would say they fit remarkably similar to each other, so I understand the frustration in sizing expectations.

- I've shifted all my bikes to wide bullmoose equivilant bars (raised Jones bars on the GBW), and the fuller upright position is dreamy on all of them, including for technical trail fixed gear riding. It really is amazing how everything feels better upright and back, with the same power pedaling.

With abadnon,

Patrick

 

[Drw]

I can tell the difference between a very short chainstay bike and an objectively longish one. I cannot for the life of me notice any difference in ride quality, specific to chainstay length, between the 2 Atlanti (toyo 2000 And Musa 2018 With currentish geometry), hunq and Clems I’ve owned or the Joe appaloosas and newer Sam hillbornes I’ve ridden.

Point being, I don’t quite get what is gained by increasing them longer than they were like 5-10 years ago. I also don’t really know that Cadillac-like is really what I want even my heaviest bikes to feel like.

I do feel that more and more Grant is picking really insignificant hills to die on. Totally his right to do so, but I’ve known a couple people who woulda bought Clems if not for the length (maybe perceived weight too). I’m not saying they know more than him. They certainly don’t, but they coulda been customers, and aren’t for a reason that I’m not convinced is super important. Everyone lost.

[Deacon Patrick]

For evidence of going over rocks on a trail with a load, see the sixth picture (with the stump in the foreground): https://deaconpatrick.org/two-midsummer-nights-dream-bikepacking-pikes-peak

That rock is, I'm guessing here, having never stopped to measure, 15-18" high, rises steeply, say a 75% slope on the side I climbed up, has a rocky approach to it from trees and rocks, making hitting it right tricky.

Seriously, not popping a wheelie with ease is a plus here folks. Easiest up and over that rock I've ever done.

With abandon,

Patrick 

[Bob Lovejoy]

Hi Leah,

I only respond here as I do sincerely feel your pain, at least that something-like-pain that comes from expecting one thing and getting another.  With your real life experience with the mixte type of Rivendell's, you should have had the most knowledge and yet you were still caught off guard.  It occurs to me you are at somewhat of a disadvantage, in that you know what the bikes have been, how they ride, what you love, all of that and more.  Someone buying their first and possibly only Rivendell would not know the difference, with nothing to compare to.

I suppose if I had one Rivendell marketing wish, it would be that any changes made to an existing design would be clearly published, easily found, and with the necessary geometry or specification numbers to compare.  And there could be a short explanation of the changes and the hoped for improvements.  If changes are made, they should at least have a clear way to distinguish between v1/v2/v3... And any and all of that should not be buried in blagh's, blogs, side comments or anywhere else where you have to be in the know to find it.  

Not that I am any kind of expert but I do have three somewhat modern day Rivendells - a Cheviot, an Appaloosa, and a Hilsen - all built up well and dialed in for their intended use.  I do love the bikes, I do, I do.  But I study the specs, I try to understand the geometry and sizing, and even then it has felt like a gamble at times.

And you are absolutely right about the real-world considerations... Not fitting in or on available bike racks, public or private, is a problem!  Not being able to carry a bike down a set of stairs and make the corner at the bottom can be a problem!  I am absolutely sure the new long (and then longer...) designs are more stable in a lot of situations, most specifically in the hills outside Walnut Creek, CA, but I do not have many such hills... but I do have stairs and I do like to take my bike other places to explore.  And I would love to know enough to just be able to recommend Rivendells (new or used) to anyone asking.  But, yeah....  I mean, are the next run of Appaloosa's at least mostly the same, or close enough to advise someone based on mine?  Are the Cheviot's changing?  Will the Clem's change more?  Someone finds a Hillborne for sale... but what year, what design?

Anyway, enough words from me.  I do love the Rivendell bikes I have and certainly agree with almost all of the vision behind the designs, the steel frames, the handling, the quality, the notion that someone should be able to work on and customize their own bike.  But still... 

Let it be known though that I love the fact you found Rivendell and ride your bikes like you do!  Thanks for the riding, the reports, the bike decorating, all of it!

Best to you this new year,

Bob Lovejoy

Galesburg, IL

[Drw]

DP, your photos and rides, as always, are spectacular and drive my unhappiness with city living deeper.

[tc]

I had scribbled the old Clem L geo a year or so ago when comparing, attached. Couldn’t find on the site any longer.

Tom

[Jason Fuller]

A good topic, Leah!  I think that it's hard to avoid "armchair engineering" of the numbers during this discussion, which is known to be one of Grant's biggest pet peeves, and the reason that the geometry numbers are so hard to find in the first place.  But I recognize that your intent here is to skip that and go to the goods: how they actually ride.  I had posted a similar question with regards to the AHH, because while I didn't feel strongly for or against the geo changes, I was a) very curious what the real-world experience was, ignoring all I've "learned" about geometry beforehand and b) whether it was still the same bike with these changes, because on paper, it should have been branded a different bike.

I have no direct riding experience to offer, my 45 cm Clem H is the shortest of all the Clems and it rides quite "normal". I do take issue that Rivendell has not been transparent about the geometry changes. The sizing info on the website is based on the old geometry, and it is incorrect for the new fitment. If I didn't have the insight of this group, I'd have bought a 52cm Clem, and it would be too large for me. This is NOT a small detail; it is easily the most important thing about a bike: above all else, it MUST fit you correctly.  I also take issue with the low number of sizes available but recognize that's a matter of cost effectiveness, and if using recommended swept bars, size becomes less particular.

It'll be interesting to see where Rivs go in the future.. I wonder if it's a pendulum thing and they'll shorten up a little in coming years; or whether more sporty models will come back or not. Or maybe, as has happened in the past, the rest of the industry will recognize Grant's benefits and follow suit.

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Bob Lovejoy - yes, this, all of this! I am virtually crying on your shoulder. Those were the words I was looking for and couldn’t come up with. I adore the Rivendell mixtes, and I am so sad that they are less suited for me than they were. I was set on getting the new Cheviot, but now I have to wait and see what the new dimensions will be - and I don’t even understand those numbers on paper, I just knew that the Clementine and Betty Foy were excellent for me. I have been making myself take that new Clem out on challenging terrain/with loads because I don’t trust it. Today I had to swerve to avoid something and it was so unnerving because I didn’t know if the bike could do what I was asking of it. It’s a long bike, and it doesn’t feel as nimble as my other bikes do; it was fine, crisis averted, but I’d never feel this way with my previous bikes. I’m left with that awful feeling of, “Will I ever get used to this?” “Did I make a mistake?” “Am I supposed to be grateful for these improvements? Am I not sophisticated enough to understand and appreciate them?” Because after all, I’m not the bike geometry expert here. But I do have an understanding, however crude and unrefined, of how good a properly designed and fit bicycle can ride, because I’ve had one. And now I’m a lot of money and time into this experiment.

I wish I could just go back to enjoying every pedal stroke, but I know too much now. It’s so hard to get used to anything else. I don’t mean to sound ungrateful, but I am disappointed. I know I can sell the bike, but it’s not so bad that it can’t work. I’m just a little sad and disappointed because I thought it would be perfect. I think my sister would say the same about her 2019 Clem L, too.

[Leah Peterson]

Yes, Roberta! This! The 2015-16 bikes were great. We loved the longer wheelbase then! It’s what I wanted when I decided to get the Anniversary Mixte (that never happened) so instead set my sights on the new Cheviot rumored for next spring. The previous Cheviots weren’t different enough from the Betty - any number of folks owning both bikes said so - so I was waiting. But now I don’t know what you and I are going to do. We will have to wait and see what the new numbers look like. More accurately, we will have to ask people who know about numbers what the new numbers look like 🤣😂

I consider myself pretty strong and I’ll say I’m fit. But for me, that Clem L is a handful to lift. Another reason I wanted a Cheviot. I can swing that Betty around like it’s nothing. I need a light bike like that one now and again. Also, the Clem is ungainly. You would have laughed had you seen me put it on the rack today. But put it on that rack I did, and I made myself ride it 9 miles and up a mountain with a front load of groceries - eggs, ice cream glass bottle of half and half and some lunch stuff for my boys. I mashed my way up toward home and thought, “Strong like bull. Dumb like post.”

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 5, 2020, at 6:46 PM, Roberta <rcha...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Joe Bernard]

Are we sure those new Clem L numbers aren't for the Baby Bike? I find it hard to believe my 45cm frame is going to get a 3.5cm longer TT and 2° slacker headtube. That doesn't sound right.

[John Phillips]

Leah,  do you still have your Betty Foy? I hope so, it sounds like you loved it.

John

[John Phillips]

   I have been thinking much the same things you all have been saying.

   I know I was surprised when Rivendell changed so much of their line to the longer wheel base. This seemed like a huge risk for a financially challenged business, when offering only one longer wheel base model would have seemed a safer option. I remember Rivendell asking for financial help while I was waiting for my Hunqapillar frame to be built. I helped out then, and have since, but it wasn't very confidence inspiring while waiting 8 months for my first Riv to arrive. The longer wheel base frames are cool if you keep your bike in the garage, never need to negotiate narrow hallways, nor stairs, nor light rail & trains, or use bike racks on cars, but would not be practical for me. But I need to do all those things, and a bike longer than my 2013 54cm Hunqapillar just would not be practical. And I think for a growing number of consumers, the new longer bikes are also too long to be practical.

    I understand the changes. I've ridden one of the appaloosa prototypes back in 2013. It was cool, but the Hunqapillar already had a very stable touring geometry, that's why I bought one, and I still love its ride. In fact, if I ever lost it to an accident or theft (knock on wood), I would seriously consider paying custom bike prices to duplicate it. For me, that bike is absolutely bloody perfect.

   Leah, if you find you love your older Riv's more than the new ones, just follow your heart.

John

[Eamon Nordquist]

There is a point at which a bike that is long enough that it becomes a specialty bike similar to a tandem or a long tail cargo bike. Very useful but at the same time limited. If a bike is difficult to park in places I need to park it, or is too long for my car or public transportation, then it’s usefulness is limited to me. I wish it were otherwise, as a 59 Clem (my size) looks like a fun bike to ride, but it is a BIG bike. I almost bought a Clem anyway, but changed my mind because of the impracticality. I know a lot of supporters of these long bikes think that people who hesitate just need to ride one, but that’s not the issue for many. They are simply too long to be practical fir some people, in some cases only realizing this after buying one.
For ME, a new Homer is pushing the limits of how long a bike I can practically use. I wish Rivendell well with these bikes, especially as they seem very committed to exploring how long they can go, but I hope they keep some bikes with more Roadini like dimensions in their stable.

Eamon
Seattle

[Dorothy C]

My son has the 52 2019 Clem L, and I later that year built up a 45cm Clem L frame for myself. We both have 81cm pbh, so could ride either size. I got the 45 because they sold out of the 52. They both ride great, but his is a challenge to carry up the concrete outdoor stairs to his apartment - walking backwards with the bike is the easier way to do it, as it lifts the heavier rear end of the bike higher. The new geometry charts were published after the 2019 Clem completes and frames were sold out, for what it is worth.
At first I thought the 45cm would be a touch on the small side, but it fits great. I am 5’ 6” 1/2.
My Clem fits LA bus racks comfortably. It is definitely longer than the previous geometry chart, because I checked against an Excel sheet I had listing the sizing of all the potential Rivs that would fit me, that I made when I was shopping for a new frame.

[Joe Bernard]

Dorothy, what's the effective toptube length of your 45 L? That's a straight line measured from seatpost to headtube at the middle of each tube.

[scott minor]

Great topic! As a tall guy with a 95cm PBH, I LOVE the new found comfort of riding a longer bike. Finally, there are a few bikes that are tall enough for me, and proportionally not too steep or too short feeling. My first experience with longer chainstays was with a 60cm Cheviot that I originally purchased for my wife but in the end became my everyday commuter for a few years. It felt like a breakthrough in comfort, even coming from a 62 Hunq but over time the Chev felt a tad small (low) for me and sure enough my PBH is 1cm past the recommended fit range. Last year I got a wide-Bosco'd 59cm Clem H with full racks and fenders for everyday use. It has a longer top tube, longer chainstays and is a bit taller compared to the Cheviot and is easily the most well-balanced and comfortable bike I have ever ridden, which is saying a lot coming from a Hunq and Chev. My Clem riding has led me to have much more interest in other LWB models, especially the newer Homer and Gus, despite the 'odd' (by traditional standards) appearance of these stretched out frames.

[Lester Lammers]

I have a 53 MIT Atlantis and it is the most comfortable bike I have owned. The problem is that we cyclists have a hard time wrapping our heads around change.

[Brian Campbell]

Long chain-chain stays allow you to differentiate yourself in a crowded market place. "Better" is always a relative term and for the type of riding I do, commuting, fun rides, the occasional brevet or loosely organized rides with friends, my 2013 AHH does an outstanding job at all of those things. 

Would another couple of inches on the chain-stays improve the ride and make it "better"? Maybe but there is nothing "wrong" with it at the moment that needs improving, IMHO. 

The recent changes in design philosophy at Riv take existing frame design concepts, refined over the last 100 years or so and push them to an extreme for an "improvement".  It very well may be an improvement in certain circumstances but it narrows the definition on Just Riding, when the bike becomes an outlier in your daily life. 

As a comparison, I recently received the Legolas I ordered and it has even shorter chain-stays than the AHH. The mix of light tubing, different geometry and shorter wheel base makes climbing hills much easier. This is all subjective and I don't do pseudo science experiments to prove or dis-prove my experience I just ride and think about how I feel.

To me the "country bike" ethos Riv spoke of when the introduced the AHH was something that appealed to me. I could and have re-configure the bike in a number of different ways depending on how I want to ride it and it always performs great. The new AHH, Atlantis, Appaloosa, Clems and Gus Boots all seem like minor variations of the same bike  The new designs seem to stress more specific, nuanced differences and therefor seem more limiting in my opinion. YMMV.

[Joe Bernard]

"The problem is that we cyclists have a hard time wrapping our heads around change."

The problem - such as it is - is these longbikes may be just fine as bicycles to ride (I like them), but are more of a struggle to transport on/in cars or buses, carry on stairs and store at home.

This is the ongoing issue when the question comes up on recumbent forums, "Why don't more people ride them?" They don't even try them because the ownership issues outside of the actual riding experience are deal breakers. It's unfortunate because longbikes and recumbents would be a revelation for lots of people, but they're not going to find out if they can't physically fit the bikes into the real lives they're really living.

[Lester Lammers]

I agree Joe. I may have just been lucky. I would NOT have bought it if I had to put it on a train or a bus. 

[Dorothy C]

Joe B
I will let you know the ETT on the 45 Clem when I get home - I rode my windy day bike - the Appaloosa - today

[masmojo]

Well, Leah I am glad you broached the subject not me! When I've mentioned it in the past it's been treated as some sort of sacrilege.

Having a long wheelbase whether it be a longer top tube, longer chainstays, or both. Does get you some good things. Increased tire, fender, mud clearance. Decreased tendency for toe overlap, etc. And in general, increases to top tube lengths and chainstay lengths for larger frames makes perfect sense, no argument there. Certainly, the contrary.

I think the main thing is it's basically uncharted territory; bicycle frame building has a century plus of evolution and whereas I am sure many people have experimented over the years, it's likely few if any have digested & recorded their findings for those that have come after them and as Grant has stated before there so many factors that go into a frame design you can't boil it down to one dimension or another. Increase the top tube, but slacken the head tube angle and you could end up with two frames that "feel" very similar.
So then the question is: how long is too long? What sort of standard do you use to determine these new longer dimensions. Logic would dictate that there be some sort of % .
Something along the lines of:
Top tube = seat tube X 110% and/or
Chainstay = seat tube X 90%
Certainly, these numbers could change depending on wheel/tire size and the end use of the bike.
It would just be one of those numbers that's thrown into the into the recipe/ blender, a benchmark, a starting point. In much the same way as 72° seat & head angles are their benchmarks respectively.

When I bought my Clementine, I actually bought 2; mine a 52 and another Small to fit my wife, son & ultimately my daughter. But to tell the truth I am sort of in between sizes myself and I can ride either. The small feels just totally normal to me; wrenching on it riding it etc. Nothing really stood out. The 52 felt big to me; although not in a bad way. Where I had issues was out of the seat pedaling, that comfortable ride everyone talks about comes at a price (which is totally fine as long as you know what it is).
The ride is smooth and comfortable, because long wheelbases tend to smooth out road irregularities, but also because the frame becomes one big leaf spring, gently flexing over those same road irregularities.
This is where things start to go sideways, because if it's flexing over bumps, it's also flexing when you try to sprint, when you wanna climb hills, etc. A certain amount of this springyness is a desirable thing, but as I said earlier where is the line?
If you've been buying/riding bikes as long as I have, to a certain extent every bike is the next on that search for the perfect bike! So far I haven't found it, but I have a few that are very close.

Unfortunately, maybe Grant's still trying to find the sweet spot and maybe it'll take some experimenting? He's kinda gone off the standard frame designers script so some edits are to be expected. We'll have to see.

PS: if my posts have grammatical error, they could be intentional, but could also be because I generally post here from my phone & the spell checker is overzealous.

[Patrick Moore]

This is an interesting discussion, and the topic is hardly inflammatory. Leah's concerns are real ones -- the incident described below shows that.

I myself have no interest in chainstays longer than about 45 cm, though I've not ridden a bike with longer ones, unless Indian Heros and Raleigh Sportses have longer ones; but I have bought bikes or had modications done for which I had high hopes only to find that they had, per the standards of my own needs and tastes, noticeable and even serious defects of one sort or another that turned the purchase at least a little sour. (Note that I say "per the standards of my own needs and tastes.") Nowadays, I am very careful to know before I purchase what exactly, say, top tubes and angles and reaches and trails and clearances are -- not to mention fender strut braze-ons and whether a particular rack's design will work with, say, the Ortlieb mountin system.

My only advice is to learn to look before buying; unfortunately, that learning sometimes involves disappointment. Whether you learn to like the new LWB bike or learn that you prefer the older model, in either case, good wishes.

On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 8:48 PM Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Bob Lovejoy - yes, this, all of this! I am virtually crying on your shoulder. Those were the words I was looking for and couldn’t come up with. I adore the Rivendell mixtes, and I am so sad that they are less suited for me than they were. I was set on getting the new Cheviot, but now I have to wait and see what the new dimensions will be - and I don’t even understand those numbers on paper, I just knew that the Clementine and Betty Foy were excellent for me. I have been making myself take that new Clem out on challenging terrain/with loads because I don’t trust it. Today I had to swerve to avoid something and it was so unnerving because I didn’t know if the bike could do what I was asking of it. It’s a long bike, and it doesn’t feel as nimble as my other bikes do; it was fine, crisis averted, but I’d never feel this way with my previous bikes. I’m left with that awful feeling of, “Will I ever get used to this?” “Did I make a mistake?” “Am I supposed to be grateful for these improvements? Am I not sophisticated enough to understand and appreciate them?” Because after all, I’m not the bike geometry expert here. But I do have an understanding, however crude and unrefined, of how good a properly designed and fit bicycle can ride, because I’ve had one. And now I’m a lot of money and time into this experiment.

I wish I could just go back to enjoying every pedal stroke, but I know too much now. It’s so hard to get used to anything else. I don’t mean to sound ungrateful, but I am disappointed. I know I can sell the bike, but it’s not so bad that it can’t work. I’m just a little sad and disappointed because I thought it would be perfect. I think my sister would say the same about her 2019 Clem L, too.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[aeroperf]

Thanks for this topic.  It explains a few things.
I rode a Diamondback Approach for 18 years, including when I used to live in Germany and would throw it on the Bahn.
It had straight bars, 3x7 speed grip shifts, and brakes big enough for 622x42 tires.  But eventually things were falling apart.

In 2015 I retired and got a Sam.  I got the 55 size with Albatross bars, and it was a dream come true.  Just a touch tall for me, bit it rode so well…
I did notice that I couldn’t “jump a curb” as easily.
I also noticed that It wouldn’t fit on the bus rack like the Diamondback had, but I put that down to changes to the bus rack.

I downloaded the then current Riv geometry chart.  It showed the chain stays at 45.5, which matches what I just measured.  Looking at newer geometry charts, the Sam hasn’t changed much - chain stays have grown to 46.5, top tube has shrunk from 59 to 58.

Then I bought an A. Homer Hilsen.  The Sam is my “everything” bike, while the Homer was going to be light touring.  I called Rivendell and mentioned the 55 Sam was a little big for me, so they suggested a 51 Homer.  This also meant 650b wheels.The Homer came with chain stays of 47.5.  After reading this thread I just backed both of them up against the garage door.  The 51 Homer with 37x650b wheels is longer than the 55 Sam with 37x700c wheels.  Not much, but it’s there.

It looks like a scooter next to the Sam - lower, longer, small wheels, tall stem.  It rides ok, in a softer, cushier kind of way (same tire pressure).  I haven’t had any toe overlap like I’ve had a couple of times on the Sam.  I HAVE had a lot more pedal strikes for the same turn radius (same crank length), so I went to thin pedals and adapted.  The bus rack problem is no worse.

But if I had to do it again, I’d get the 51 Sam instead of the 51 Homer.  I like the feel of steel, but not the soft ride of the longer chain stays.

[Leah Peterson]

John, I do still have the Betty Foy. I did love it, and I still do, but Grant was right to change that bike in the current iteration of the Cheviots. The Cheviot is better named, takes a fatter tire, and has not-overly long chainstays. The Clementine is such a sweet ride that the Betty, lovely and lithe, sat neglected. I figured when the Anniversary Mixte launched I’d sell the Betz and get that AM. Alas, it never materialized, but word came that the Cheviot was getting a makeover, and the word “fancy” was even used. I figured I’d stop mourning the AM and get the Fancy Chev instead (figuring it would incorporate improvements that would make it more like the ride of the Clementine), and even see about getting it painted in my desired color. I really wanted to get bikes I can love and do life with from here on out, because Rivendell has not promised us they will exist in the long term via their Blahg. Plus, I am the type who just likes to love what she has to death.

I still plan to sell the Betz if the Cheviots are shorter than the Clems (and lighter). And then I’ll paint it my favorite color, deck it out with my first ever dyno lighting and ride off into the hills and you’ll hear no more whining from me!

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 5, 2020, at 10:33 PM, John Phillips <w00ly...@gmail.com> wrote:



Leah,  do you still have your Betty Foy? I hope so, it sounds like you loved it.

John

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[Leah Peterson]

This is so helpful and so interesting. You are taller than me by half an inch, and you have the 45, which I would never have considered my size. I need to go re-measure my PBH if yours is only 81...

It’s good for everyone to know that lengthened 45 still fits on public trans - thanks for that! I’m married to a man whose job moves us every few years, and so while I’m not using buses presently, I may very well face this at our next location. Maybe I should have gotten the 45.

How do you feel on his 52? Just curious.

And lastly, you win the prize today. You have a “windy day” Rivendell bike. I just know I would love you. ❤️

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 6, 2020, at 4:06 AM, Dorothy C <doroth...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> My son has the 52 2019 Clem L, and I later that year built up a 45cm Clem L frame for myself. We both have 81cm pbh, so could ride either size. I got the 45 because they sold out of the 52. They both ride great, but his is a challenge to carry up the concrete outdoor stairs to his apartment - walking backwards with the bike is the easier way to do it, as it lifts the heavier rear end of the bike higher. The new geometry charts were published after the 2019 Clem completes and frames were sold out, for what it is worth.

> At first I thought the 45cm would be a touch on the small side, but it fits great. I am 5’ 6” 1/2.
> My Clem fits LA bus racks comfortably. It is definitely longer than the previous geometry chart, because I checked against an Excel sheet I had listing the sizing of all the potential Rivs that would fit me, that I made when I was shopping for a new frame.
>

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[LBleriot]

I am a convert, sort of.  When I first laid eyes on the MIT Atlantis, I recoiled in horror.  I didn't know what to make of the long chainstays and the ever more sloping top tubes.  Now, having purchased a Clem H and MIT Atlantis I do see benefits, but as everyone is pointing out, there are some compromises.  They are BIG frames which require some travel and storage modifications, at least in my world.  Also, you'll need to buy a chain-and-a-half, or eight more links in my case, and perhaps longer cables to accommodate the longer wheelbase.  It may be me, but shifting (both index and friction) seems more finicky.  My rear derailleurs rattle around more which is surprising given that I'm using basic Shimano 8 speed setups on both bikes.  Also, I wouldn't climb any alpine passes on these bikes.  I find that these are small inconveniences given the comfort and stability both bikes provide on and off pavement. 

[Deacon Patrick]

LBleriot said of long chain stay bikes: "I wouldn't climb any alpine passes on these bikes."

Based on what? I've climbed (and descended) countless alpine passes, roads and technical trails, with mine and it climbs and descends brilliantly.

With abandon,

Patrick

[aeroperf]

Thanks again for the topic.
It’s 60 degrees, sunny, no wind in Atlanta, so it got me to pump up the tires on both the Sam and Homer and go out and do 9 miles with each.  Just ride.
And it is still a toss-up.  I feel more comfortable on the Sam, but I’ve been riding it for 5 years.  The Homer is definitely a more cushy ride, with a “1999 Buick LeSabre” kind of feel.  The Sam feels tighter.  Neither are what I’d call “nimble”, but I’d rather dodge a deer (one ran across the Silver Comet well in front of me today) with the Sam.

I built the Homer up from the frameset, and LBleriot has it right - I had to get a special longer shift cable for the bike, and it used all 116 links on the chain.  But that is an observation, not a purchasing factor.

I’m going to say I’d prefer a Homer with slightly shorter chainstays, or a Sam the same size.  For my money, and there is significant money involved, the chainstays on the Homer have reached their limit - any longer and the bike would be uncomfortable for me.  Already I consider it a bit “flexible”.  YMMV.

[Joe Bernard]

My windy day Riv has a motor 😋

[Joe Bernard]

Aeroperf, another consideration in the way your bikes feel is the 700c wheels on your Sam. It seems counterintuitive that the bigger wheel with same-size tires would feel nimbler, but I wouldn't discount it.

[Eric Norris]

By coincidence, Jan Heine talks about 700c vs 650b wheel sizes in today’s article on his Rene Herse blog:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/blog/?utm_source=Retail+Customer+Newsletter&utm_campaign=ff743aa9f0-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_11_29_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f74fbd5ca8-ff743aa9f0-80276621&mc_cid=ff743aa9f0&mc_eid=fcea192cdb

--Eric N

On Jan 6, 2020, at 3:09 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aeroperf, another consideration in the way your bikes feel is the 700c wheels on your Sam. It seems counterintuitive that the bigger wheel with same-size tires would feel nimbler, but I wouldn't discount it.

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[Mark Roland]

Hi BBDD! I have a horse in this race (2019 Clem L) but it's not saddled up--in fact the wheels aren't yet built. When that blessed event takes place, I will be able to compare it to the memory of my OC (Original Clementine.)

I have to say I am still unsure as to what is making you unhappy about your new Clem L. I doubt it is heavier than the old one, which had bigger diameter tubing. The extra inch of chainstay would at best be a wash. I understand the limits of a big bike in terms of portage and storage, for sure. In terms of handling, you mention it not being as "nimble" as your other bikes--so specifically, it is "less nimble" than your inherited Aqua Clementine?

It sounds like the bike successfully avoided whatever was in its path in the scenario below. Maybe you could try letting go a bit more and let it do its thing? When I first got my Clementine, the Bosco bars were way out of my normal experience. That's why I committed to giving them 100 days with no judgement, just ride 'em. This is not to suggest a compromise in any way, as is sometimes implied when the term "get used to it" is used. It just means that if your body is really feeling an actual response difference, assuming it's not something inherently unsafe, it may just be giving your nervous system and other parts of your being some time to adjust.

I had a Big Dummy for a few years, when my son was younger. Of course it was heavy, and often, but not always, loaded. But it was a fun bike to ride, I enjoyed it quite a bit, and missed it after I sold it. The chainstays on the Big Dummy were somewhere north of 80cm. So yeah, not going on the front of the bus. On the other hand, it was the bus.

How long is too long? Who knows. I guess certainly for some, anything over 41.5 is too long. Although if the Clem L gets any longer, they should sell it with an extra top tube and down tube so you can convert it to a Hubabuba when you have company. In fact, on the rare occasions I find myself alone on my tandem, it handles just fine. True, no wheelies. Say la vee.

Also, I wonder if perhaps you are feeling more the slacker head angle than the extra inch in the chainstays. I am not a bicycle designer by any means, but I suppose it is a possibility. There are those who don't get along with the slack angles of the early eighties mountain bikes. Although these days slack is back, albeit along with many other geo changes, not to mention suspension, so it's comparing apples and clementines.

Speaking of apples, I suspect that's one reason Grant is not a big fan of by the numbers critiques--it's like taking a bite of the fruit of forbidden knowledge. It really can be a rabbit hole that can both confuse and maybe even influence our perceptions. As my tai chi teacher was fond of admonishing us, "Thinking too much! Just do!"

I hope you will keep riding it and these concerns will fade away. But if they don't, I'll bet you could swap for an older model, or sell all your bikes and order a custom  candy apple Riv.

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 10:48:08 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

..I have been making myself take that new Clem out on challenging terrain/with loads because I don’t trust it. Today I had to swerve to avoid something and it was so unnerving because I didn’t know if the bike could do what I was asking of it. It’s a long bike, and it doesn’t feel as nimble as my other bikes do; it was fine, crisis averted, but I’d never feel this way with my previous bikes. I’m left with that awful feeling of, “Will I ever get used to this?” “Did I make a mistake?” “Am I supposed to be grateful for these improvements? Am I not sophisticated enough to understand and appreciate them?” Because after all, I’m not the bike geometry expert here. But I do have an understanding, however crude and unrefined, of how good a properly designed and fit bicycle can ride, because I’ve had one. And now I’m a lot of money and time into this experiment.

[RonaTD]

This is a great thread and should serve as a helpful source for people considering various Rivendell models. It makes it more helpful, IMO, when people chiming in described how they use their bikes. For example, people who put their bikes on bus racks, or regularly have to carry them up stairs ... those are very practical non-riding issues! 

My take on Grant's design evolution is that it's highly influenced by the kind of riding he does and where he does it. So, it's not surprising to me that Deacon Patrick, who appears to ride similarly over similar (though a bit more epic!) terrain as GP. I'll give another example ... I took my Quickbeam as a "travel bike" to the San Diego area, where I participated in a group ride that, today, would be called a "gravel ride". It was organized by an outfitter, who provided cushy full-suspension mountain bikes to everyone and tried to dissuade me from using the QB. The terrain reminded me a lot of riding trails around Walnut Creek, and the QB put on quite a show both ascending and descending some fun singletrack. The bike was very much in its element and a joy to ride. 

The lengthening of chain stays offered to me a potential advantage for winter commuting, which pretty often involves re-frozen slushy tracks that are quite bumpy. All else equal, the longer wheelbase (and longer rear-center contribution to that) helps keep the bike moving in the intended direction despite the side-deflections from the bumps. I bought a Cheviot with the intention of making it my commuting bike, but it never worked well for me _for that purpose_. Half of my commute was suburban streets, where I wanted to ride 16-20 mph. The other half was a paved rail-trail, where 15mph max was a responsible speed. Riding the Cheviot the same speed as my other "road" bikes simply wasn't possible, no matter how I set up the bars. Milwaukee gets a lot of wind, btw, and winter wind is HEAVY!  If I was willing to increase my commute time 50-100%, and if I was willing to change from front-loading to rear-loading, it might have worked. But it was hard work to ride it, and I ended up re-purposing a lightweight randonneur bike as my commuter and loved it.

I have almost no trail-riding opportunities out my door, and I'm not usually willing to drive 1-2 hours to find them (another key issue: do you like to carry your bike in your car, rather than on it?). I have hundreds of kilometers of fabulous paved country roads with good shoulders right out my door. So, no surprise, the bikes that work for me are pretty classic road bikes. The original prototype Heron Road, with it's "adjustable chain stay length" (horizontal drops!)  is still my favorite. The only riding I use the Cheviot for is errands, so it permanently carries a pair of Carradice rear panniers and a saddle bag. It could use a basket on the front for the occasional light, bulky objects.

Also, another good data point is your height/bike size. It's not surprising that taller people like longer chain stays, which Grant addressed in his recent Reddit exercise. I'm 5'6", 71cm saddle height, so on the shorter side for men, and very light weight. 

[Leah Peterson]

These are fair questions, and I’ll see if I can answer them. But first, I cannot wait for your 2019 Clem L to be saddled up and ridden hard. You owe me a story. 

Next, what is making me unhappy about my Clem? Please let me say that I don’t dislike the bike - I do like it, I just wanted to LOVE it. I still just may - but it’s different than what I thought I had purchased, and I’m hoping I get used to it. It also should be said that Riv NAILED the blue paint - have you ever seen a blue so pretty?  Here are the things that irk me: 

1. It’s too long for my bike rack. That is pretty straightforward. 

2. I keep hitting it on things when I walk it backwards. It’s just so LONG, and when I’m moving it around it seems to hit into things all the time. I don’t remember the Clementine being this way, but I will admit I could be wrong.

3. In that vein, It’s awkward to lift. At school I have to lift it over a curb and I’m never certain I’m going to be able to do it. You should have seen me with the Betty - we made bike-lifting look good! I don’t remember the Clementine being this awkward, but again, I may be wrong. See below for a comparison of the Aquatine and the Clem. It’s LONG. Imagine me swinging this bike around. But I do.

4. I had to scoot my saddle pretty far forward for it to feel right. I think this is a drastic measure that really signifies the bike is too long. Website says over 5’5” can ride the 52, so why am I pushing my saddle forward? 

Today I hopped on my Betz and talk about shock. The bike felt short. I felt short. I stood up to pedal and wondered if I might fall over the front wheel. It was weird - and this was my one and only for 7 years! I would never expect it to feel weird.

Then I got on the Clem and felt like I was 7 feet tall. It’s amazing how different these bikes are and what you can get used to. I will keep at it, never fear. I want the bike to do its thing and I really want to feel comfortable. I think you’ll note your 2019 is way different than your OC. I await your report - which you will undoubtedly treat us to here.

PS Very clever - apples to clementines.

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 6, 2020, at 3:49 PM, Mark Roland <absolut...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[LBleriot]

Let me rephrase.  I wouldn't climb any alpine pass unless it's in a funicular or a BMW M3.

[Clayton.sf]

Some subjective counterpoints.

Owned an MIT Atlantis, Cheviot and still own a Clem H.

All of the above bikes would be my last choice for "spirited" unloaded climbing when choosing from my stable.

My Boulder, Black Mountain Cyles, Hampsten, and Jones all climb with less perceived exertion on my part and at a higher average speed. 

It is not that the Riv models above are bad climbers but they do require more effort (for me) for the same speed.

To me they are great loaded multi-purpose bike but they are not (to me) "go-fast" bikes.

On the flipside the Boulder, BMC, and Hampsten would all be inferior heavily loaded. 

The Quickbeam on the other hand never felt like it was holding me back on hills.

Clayton Scott

HBG, CA

[tom coppedge]

Leah, I thought you got a shorter reach stem than what your picture shows. Have you tried a 50mm reach stem yet?  Obviously that’d address only cockpit issues, but an important one.   

Tom

.

[aeroperf]

Joe and Eric—

I’m not discounting tire/wheel size.  Since I’ve had the Sam for years, and am still setting up the Homer, I tried to control for a few things.  Both have the same Serfas 921V seats.  Both had the same tires for these particular rides: 37mm Continental Tour Rides.  Today I set both at 70 psi for the rides, and I rode both the same route on the Silver Comet Trail.

Maybe this set-up is not optimum for the Homer.  Since I’ve sorted through the Sam gearing, tires (I usually ride Speed Rides) and pressure for what I like, this was just a totally subjective A-B comparison.  But with both bikes having about the same wheelbase (a little longer for the Homer but with smaller wheels), I was trying to contribute to Leah’s questions regarding “have the chainstays gone too far?”. 

We plunk down our money with whatever bike company, tell them our dimensions that they ask for, and hope to get the bike of our dreams.  Rivendell does pretty darn well at that, especially if you like lugged steel.  Grant has had a LOT of experience, and runs a bicycle company whose employees also have a LOT of experience, and one that has avid followers.  Otherwise we wouldn’t be here.  But Rivendell is not infallible, either in the fitting or in the design.  I wish I could go to Rivendell directly and ride 20 bikes and select my dream bike.  Lacking that, I have to go with the published numbers.

For me it seems (and as I said before YMMV), that the Homer chain stays have gotten about as long as they could be for me to enjoy riding the bike.  If I ever buy another Riv, I’ll look for shorter chainstays (among other things).

As Leah says, I like my bikes.  I just wanted to Love them, and I still may.  I love the Sam.  The Homer is my kid that I should love the same, and I'll see what develops.  But it feels a little too... chainstay-ish.

[Leah Peterson]

You’ve got eagle eyes, Tom! Yes, that is an older photo of the bike - note the brown saddle and lack of fabulous wavy fenders.

I have a 50 on there presently.

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 6, 2020, at 4:57 PM, tom coppedge <tdc...@gmail.com> wrote:



Leah, I thought you got a shorter reach stem than what your picture shows. Have you tried a 50mm reach stem yet?  Obviously that’d address only cockpit issues, but an important one.   

Tom

<image0.jpeg>

.

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[Jason Fuller]

Even though I haven't ridden any 50+ cm chainstay Rivs, I am pretty confident that I would side with those who prefer the shorter stays:  I like to ride spirited, I don't mind getting a little out of control in the name of fun, and I would happily trade off some stability to get these things.  It's certainly a personal choice, where along the stability / agility compromise you want to land.  I also recognize that Grant's knowledge of how all the geometry numbers intermingle is superior to mine and that not all bikes with long stays will ride the same.  

This is why I grabbed a Hillborne while I still could, because the medium-long stays are probably the longest I'm ever going to want for my weekend play bike, regardless of the benefits of the new long-stay bikes.

I really hope that Grant brings back some new sporty options beyond the current road models, something with higher volume 650b (or even 26") with Riv-sporty geometry like old models like Saluki, Bleriot, etc. I am sure he can put a new twist on these types of bikes without detriment to their sportiness. 

[Deacon Patrick]

Fell off me kneeler laughing! (Seriously, I use a coffee table height desk with a kneeler ... a bit like a funicular, nothing like a BMW M3.) Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[lambbo]

I have a 60 Cheviot and a 61 Roadini.  I live in a walkup in NYC and have a Volvo station wagon with a roof rack. 

Because bringing it inside and up the stairs is impossible to do pleasantly because of the size, I keep the Cheviot outside on a sign post.  It's not ideal, and I've had to strip the paint off areas to make it uglier, painted the fenders brown, etc., so that it doesn't get stolen.  Extreme forced beausage. For me, it's worth it, because it is SO comfortable, and I commute on it daily.   I put it on my roof rack no trouble (I take off the front wheel), but it's very hard to fit inside the car with the seats down...mostly due to the Bosco's.    I think the hardest parts of living with the bike in the city is how I've set it up, with a big basket and big boscos...those things make it harder to lock up; the length doesn't matter besides bringing it inside.   My friend has a 52 or 56 and it's incredibly convenient compared to my 60.

The Roadini is also big, but it's always lived inside, it's just a normal big bike, because it's 61cm.  I've taken it on trains and ferrys and in the car, all good. 

I would love it if the Cheviot wasn't so long in theory, but if it was shorter it wouldn't be the same bike, and I've never ridden such a comfortable bike.

If I had the $ and a garage I'd get the even longer Gus. 

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 8:03:57 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

You’ve got eagle eyes, Tom! Yes, that is an older photo of the bike - note the brown saddle and lack of fabulous wavy fenders.

I have a 50 on there presently.

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 6, 2020, at 4:57 PM, tom coppedge <tdc...@gmail.com> wrote:



Leah, I thought you got a shorter reach stem than what your picture shows. Have you tried a 50mm reach stem yet?  Obviously that’d address only cockpit issues, but an important one.   

Tom

<image0.jpeg>

.

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[Mark Roland]

I don't think this is necessarily subjective. Comparing a Hillibike, aka Clem Smith Jr., which the designer specifically and categorically states is based on a 1980s vintage mountain bike, to a Boulder or a Hampsten, certainly they will be different. If you have both bicycles, and you choose to focus on the exertion levels required by x vs y, and your aim is to get to the top faster, and/or in a more spirited manner, it's clear which bikes will win that battle, for virtually every rider. Presumably that's why you have a bunch of different bicycles.

The Clem Smith Jr is a Hillibike, and it rides just like one in every way. In good measure because, until the Gus/Suzie was released into the wild, it was the only Hillibike in existence.

I bought a Clementine first batch. I think 2015? I needed to let it go temporarily to pay some bills. When I had a little cash on hand, no Clem Ls were to be had in all the land.  So I bought a Jones Complete, when they first came out, in the summer of 2018. Super fun bike, 3" tires, disc brakes, go anywhere, do anything. But I felt like the Clementine climbed better, descended better, and handled regular road duty better. It was also easier to outfit with fenders, racks, etc. So I sold the Jones and bought another Clem L to replace the one I had to temporarily give up.

I don't claim this to be everyone's experience. But it does help to acknowledge the intent of the bike's design and go from there.

[Leah Peterson]

I really like this story, but for the forced beausage. Scraping off paint? That hurt to read. Anyway, I love that you love your Chev and it is so good to know that you find it the ultimate comfortable commuter. That’s the sweet spot for a bike for me. 

Do you happen to know how long your 60 Chev is? I’m curious how a 60 Chev measures up to a 52 Clem L when you measure the wheelbase. If you know, will you leave it here? 

Thanks,

Leah

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 6, 2020, at 5:28 PM, lambbo <antone...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Mark Roland]

And also to be fair, I don't think it would be too common that someone would buy two Clem Ls for themselves (and in fact of course neither did you.) My point is, the comparison between the two would have been mostly on paper for most riders. The fact that the design was changed over that timeframe is now definitely an issue for you. I am now super curious to see if it presents a similar issue for me. I will definitely report my experience. Frankly, I was looking at the extra tire clearance and the extra chainstay inch and the awesome green color as a bonus. I did not know about the slacker head tube angle. Of course, this is all now creeping around in my head.

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

[Dorothy C]

Joe B.
ETT on the 2019 45cm Clem L, measured from center of seat lug to just under the cream accent on the top of the head tube looks to be 60.5 cm

[Adam Leibow]

here is a day in the life vid shot onboard my clem L

https://www.instagram.com/p/B2LYQMQlCdZ/

[Joe Bernard]

Huh, mine is 57.5. Yours (Dorothy) is halfway between mine and the new posted number. Weird!

[Dorothy C]

Leah,
Re the windy day bike, thanks for your comment, it made me laugh.
It is more or less coincidental. I bought the Appaloosa first, in 2017. It is the smallest model with 26 inch wheels and is outfitted with Schwalbe Big Ben tires, Bullmoose bars and the new Nitto front basket rack with a Wald basket. While the 55 Cheviot is fine too, the Appaloosa is the most resistant to gusts.
You asked how my Clem rides compared to the 52; I am not able to ride them side by side as my son is grown and living in a different city. I rode his twice when we picked it up in September, but I didn’t get my frame until the end of October.
My Clem build was a remake of a hybrid I had been putting Riv parts on, with the replacement of the wheelset, and Chocomoose bars that had previously been on my Appaloosa. I also put the new Silver 2 shifters on it as bar ends.

[tc]

Adam, thx for that video! Passing racer boys on a fat-tired Clem L “cruiser”, no less. 😬

Tom

[masmojo]

Truth is the people in this group are generally obsessive compulsive and way too deep into the details and minutia of bikes and Rivendell in particular.

The average Rivendell buyer likely doesn't get so involved; they are sucked in via Radavist, BikesnobNYC or maybe old the Lovelybike site. They land on the web site poke around and buy a bike. They will have no point of reference. It's likely Leah would be over the moon with her new Clem if she didn't already have a Clementine & Betty Foy. Just like my opinions are colored by the 30 or so bikes I've owned, my time as a mechanic, wrenching my own bikes, building/fabricating things, other people's bikes I've ridden, etc. It's deep pool of knowledge (largely trivial) that most people don't have.
That coupled with Grant's status allow him to do things other people in the business working for larger companies couldn't get away with.
If it doesn't quite work, Grant can just fudge it around for next time.
My Clementine is very comfortable, but it is slower than any other bike I have; it's not a huge difference, but over the course of an hour or two the difference can add up. And if it's a hilly route with a strong headwind, I best not be in a hurry.
Anywayz, I am glad someone else mentioned pedal strike, because when I mentioned it in the past people assumed I was some sort of newby who didn't know how to ride.

[Joe Bernard]

I don't agree that Riv riders are too into the details. I don't agree that the average Riv rider is not into them. I don't agree that Leah would feel differently about her Clem L without other Rivs as reference because she still would have needed a shorter stem and longer car rack to make it work for her.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 1/7/20 10:07 AM, masmojo wrote:

Truth is the people in this group are generally obsessive compulsive and way too deep into the details and minutia of bikes and Rivendell in particular. 

You say that as if it was a bad thing.  Which is, of course, nonsense!

The average Rivendell buyer likely doesn't get so involved; they are sucked in via Radavist, BikesnobNYC or maybe old the Lovelybike site. They land on the web site poke around and buy a bike. They will have no point of reference. 

Evidence? 

It's likely Leah would be over the moon with her new Clem if she didn't already have a Clementine & Betty Foy. Just like my opinions are colored by the 30 or so bikes I've owned, my time as a mechanic, wrenching my own bikes, building/fabricating things, other people's bikes I've ridden, etc. It's deep pool of knowledge (largely trivial) that most people don't have.
That coupled with Grant's status allow him to do things other people in the business working for larger companies couldn't get away with.

What status does Grant have among the ranks of those "average" Riv buyers?  If all they know is BSNYC & Radavist, likely they've never heard of the man or have no opinion of him whatever.

If it doesn't quite work, Grant can just fudge it around for next time. 
My Clementine is very comfortable,  but it is slower than any other bike I have; it's not a huge difference, but over the course of an hour or two the difference can add up. And if it's a hilly route with a strong headwind, I best not be in a hurry.
Anywayz, I am glad someone else mentioned pedal strike, because when I mentioned it in the past people assumed I was some sort of newby who didn't know how to ride.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Steve Cole]

This is among the most enjoyable, interesting and useful threads I've read on  RBWOB.  Thanks to Leah and all those who she has motivated to contribute.  Following Joe's and Steve's responses to the idea that many of us are obsessive/compulsive about our Riv bikes, I plead guilty.  And I hope my sentence is to be force-fed even more information, data, videos, etc.  My wife thinks I spend more time thinking about riding my Rivs than actually riding them  She may be correct.  As the same time, Thinking about cycling gives me almost as much, if not as much pleasure, as riding.  It allows me to fill more of my day pleasurably than I could if I rode and did not obsess about it.

Steve Cole

Arlington, VA

[Joe Bernard]

In my other life I'm a news junkie and boy do I not need to read and write about THAT more often. I'm GLAD I obsess on Riv stuff as much as I do!

[Dorothy C]

Leah,
If you are ever in the Northridge, CA area you are welcome to go for a bike ride with me and try the smaller 2019 Clem L

[masmojo]

Steve, I didn't say it was a bad thing (I'm here & OC), just saying that most people are not going to know their stem is too long; they may know it feels weird, but will probably assume that's how it's supposed to be. As a person that's hung out in bike shops (too much) I've seen far too many people come in with their handlebars upside down, their forks backwards, the quick releases installed incorrectly, etc. AND be totally oblivious; give those same people a RTR Rivendell and it'll feel SOOO much better that even if it's not ideal they will be thrilled.
The evidence? The relatively small number of posters here vs. The number of people who buy Rivendells.
One of the mechanics at the last shop I frequented (Riv dealer, now closed) who incidentally had been a mechanic for many years said he'd never even heard of Rivendell until started working at that shop and mine was one of the first he'd ever seen! The vast majority are sold and evaporate into thin air only to show up for sale on Ebay or here many years later. The average bike buyer gets excited about bikes rides all summer long, it goes in the loft or garage when winter comes and many times never gets ridden again.
Regarding Leah, she's started this thread as a reaction to her newest Rivendell and getting it to ride like her previous ones, without those previous bikes as reference she might know it feels funny, but not what it should feel like.

Not sure what Grant's status with the "average" Riv buyer is, but he's revered by hardcore Bridgestone & Rivendell riders and is very well known in the bike industry at large. Your comment regarding Radavist & Bikesnob makes me think you don't frequent either; many of the mainstay personalities on Radavist are big fans of Grant & Rivendell and both are mentioned regularly. Eben Weiss hardly goes a week or two without mentioning either Grant or Rivendell and both sites have linked ads for Rivendell. No doubt the average readers there are VERY aware of Grant & Rivendell.
Not sure why you took issue with any of that, but I stand by all of it. It's all based on direct experience and/or observation.

[Joe Bernard]

I don't know, man, you're assuming an awful lot of stuff as fact that are clearly opinions. MY opinion is most Riv buyers are pretty full up on Riv knowledge before they buy one. MY opinion is you either know a lot about these bikes, or not enough to even know they exist.

[masmojo]

Educated guess more than assumptions, obviously I have no hard data.

My local Rivendell dealer (a friend of mine) would tell me that any time Radavist had a post on Rivendell, Surly or All City (All Brands he was a dealer for) his phone would ring, because he was listed as a dealer on their websites.

Likewise, how many times have you seen a post here or Ebay listing that read along the lines of "I bought this bike two years ago to commute to work, but now I am retired . . . " OR "I am selling this for a friend who bought it, but never rode it" Or something similar? Far too many times for me to count!
Do you think the retired person selling the bike they no longer use is frequenting this group? The friend who is selling his bike? Even for the large portion of people who have regularly use their Rivendell, they spend their time riding, probably don't know this chat group exists.
Main reason I alight here at all is because I have a desk job, where I am looking at a computer all day.

[Jason Fuller]

It would be surprising to me that someone would spend the money on a Rivendell without being quite educated about bikes, but let's face it, Rivendell is quite a "lifestyle brand" in a sense since Grant has a unique perspective in the industry. So I guess it could happen. Rivendells are meant to be a "don't worry about the details and just ride your bike" kind of company but at the price point, I think most buyers are fairly die-hard cyclists who have probably done a fair bit of their own wrenching.  Always exceptions, though. 

Back to the topic at hand, I do wonder where the dust will settle - the pendulum can sometimes swing a bit, and it's completely possible that the average CS length will decrease in the next three years.  Maybe it'll further increase.  That's the topic of debate, though.  I have fully bought into the idea that most people ride bikes with too-short chainstays, and I also believe that front-centers getting longer (and stems getting correspondingly shorter) is a benefit to most riders.  But I also believe that most too-short chainstays are only too short by a small margin on small sizes.  It's a completely different thing to put 50cm chainstays on a 61cm frame versus a 51cm frame, and the latter is, in my opinion, a bad idea (unless it's a touring bike).

[lconley]

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 2:23:11 PM UTC-5, masmojo wrote:

"Main reason I alight here at all is because I have a desk job, where I am looking at a computer all day."

 Ditto.

I stumbled upon Rivendell 10? years ago when I was still nursing my 1973 Paramount P-15 along. Back when I had less than 5 bicycles (20++ now). I thought that Rivendells were a steal - where else could you get a new quality lugged frame for a reasonable amount of money - less than many wanted for their 30-40 year old steel frames on E-bay. I thought then, as now, that the carbon fiber frames were ugly and their paint schemes even worse.

I remember when my touring Paramount was looked down upon for it's "long" chain stays 17 and "long" wheelbase and heavy Reynolds 531 tubing.

One thing I have learned over the years is that Rivendells are always evolving - the geometry charts are just a picture in time - my tentacled Bombadil isn't close to the geometry chart - the chain stays are much longer than the chart.

Laing

Delray Beach FL

[Bob Lovejoy]

Hi Leah,

I was moving bikes around and remembered you had asked about 60cm Cheviot lengths and wheelbases?

I measure 48 inches dropout-to-dropout.

Using 700x38 rims/tires, those add ~27.5" to the total length, so ~75.5 inches total, 

plus maybe a little for a rear fender if so equipped.

And that is with 54cm chainstays (measured and true to the online spec)

Hope that helps...!

Bob

P.S.  My Cheviot has managed to live a more sheltered life than the lambbo's!?  All paint, well, 99.8%?, still on the bike and glad to be I think...

[dougP]

BBDD:

Thanks you so much for initiating this discussion.  It has great value by opening up the various requirements and constraints that riders have that dictate bicycle choice.  For instance, I never considered bus racks or dragging my Atlantis up flights of stairs.  Even though as a rule we're not overly concerned with weight, that is a real world problem if you have to lift your bike onto a hook on a train, an experience I had on the Portland light rail.

It's interesting to see all the various issues people must take into consideration when buying a bike for themselves.  Great topic.

dougP

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Oh, this has been so interesting! I am taking a break from errands and cleaning to catch up on here, and then back to my floors. This List is a good reward for getting the undesirable stuff done - I’ll treat myself to reading your posts when I’m through with the dreaded housework.

Mark Roland - hurry up and build your bike so you can contribute here! We might be the only two who have had Clementines and the 2019 Clem L. And I am not as helpful as you when it comes to dissecting their differences.

Dorothy - you are the kindest. If ever I’m in your neighborhood, we shall ride little Clems!

Adam Leibow - your Day in the Life of A Clem video is boss. You are so cool.

Bob Lovejoy (whose name I covet) - thank you! I measured my 52 Clem to have 50.5 inches hub to hub, so hope that helps someone. I’m wondering how long the new iteration of Cheviot will be, and I’m glad I have a comparison, knowing what your 60 is. There’s s hope it won’t be longer than 48 in my size...

Steve Cold and DougP - I’m so glad this thread took off and everyone had such interesting points of view and useful contributions. So pleased you also find it enjoyable and instructive. Me, too!

To answer Masmojo, et all, about Who Shops At Rivendell and what kind of knowledge base do they have, I offer a couple of thoughts. Reflecting on it, I realized I am walking on both sides of the line here. I’d venture that most folks shopping at Rivendell know what they’re getting. They will expect a beautiful, useful, comfortable, enduring bicycle that they can only get in a handful of places country-wide, and they’re willing to shell out the bucks for one. Regular people who are not in the know would say I was a NUT for spending more than a few hundred bucks on a silly bicycle - those aren’t the folks shopping at Riv.

Though I wasn’t a proficient in the language of bikes, I was driven to Rivendell because of *need.* I loved to ride my bike and couldn’t find a way to get comfortable on it and be able to carry things and pull my kids around. My neck was killing me and that “upgraded” saddle was unspeakable. I felt defeated because I’d had Walmart my whole life but had splurged on a Craigslist Trek (my very first “nice” bike, at age 30) and I was worse off than I was with the broken Walmart Schwinn. I was totally demoralized. I took my money and headed to local bike shops for help and they rarely listened, dismissed what mattered to me, and, if I ever did get their attention, they couldn’t offer anything to help me. I turned to cycling forums for help (another nightmare) and heard the name Rivendell. I didn’t speak a word of bike geek at the time, but here was a bike shop promising me the things I’d been searching for and best of all, they were nothing like the cycling forum people or the big name bike shops. I pored over the website. I knew nothing about bikes, but I knew everything about Rivendell.

Even though I don’t speak the language of bike geometry, I know when a bike feels good, and I can identify the problems they give me. Had I never thrown a leg over a Rivendell, save my current blue beauty, I’d be very pleased with the comfort level. I wouldn’t know the bike was long until someone told me, or until I realized it wouldn’t fit onto my bike rack. I WOULD know that the bars were too far away, I just wouldn’t know there was anything I could do about that. I’d know the bike was unwieldy to lift and also heavy. I don’t think my concerns are a result of a bike geek poring over numbers and comparing them, I think my concerns are real and I’d have them even if I had no other Riv ride to compare to. So, I’m on both sides of the line.

I feel like I’m taking you too far down the rabbit hole and losing the point, so I’ll stop there. Mom always says you have to say something nice after saying something harsh - and since I feel like I’ve expressed some disappointment in my Clem I will balance it with this: My bike is gorgeous. Heart-rendingly beautiful. I see it - I smile. It’s romantic and strong and capable and you can’t have it. He’s just kind of a big guy, that’s all. But I can live with that. 💙

Back to floor cleaning!

[aeroperf]

IMHO, masmojo and Steve and Iconley and especially Bicycle Belle are all correct, because the customer base is for Rivs is pretty diverse.  People find their way to Rivendell in different ways, and with different bases of knowledge.

There’s a bicycle store owner at Floyd Rd. near Atlanta who has an RB-1 and wishes he had a Riv with dual top tube but his legs are too short.  He knows bikes better than most.  There’s me who only owned 5 previous bikes in 65 years but researched lugged steel as a final retirement bike.  There are Grant-followers.  There are people with more money than sense who want what some peer group considers “the best”.  There are folks sent by dealers who are looking for the highest profit percentage.  There are folks who have met Riv owners on rides and have looked and gone “Ooooo…I want that”.  And of course, there are folks who found a Riv for $25 at an estate sale and just thinks it “rides OK”, and never even know about this forum.

But for those of us Riv owners who have found their way to this forum, it is certainly a valid question as to where the design is going.  Most of the commenters I’ve seen have more than one Riv.  It pushed me to do an A-B, LWB/Non-LWB ride, to see what I really thought about longer chainstays, and read others opinions about whether it was just chainstays or possibly tires, possibly wheel size, possibly fitting, too.
I would think (and hope) that the folks at Riv are reading this, and that other forum members put forth opinions - Whether Based On Numbers Or Not!  Riv is a business.  This is feedback to that business.  If it doesn’t feel comfortable to YOU, or doesn’t fit on the local #30 bus rack, or can’t be carried upstairs and must be left chained to a road sign for potential thieves, these are valid sales concerns.

Oh, and for hard data… My 2015 55 Sam has a 1050mm wheelbase, while my 2019 51 Homer has a 1075mm wheelbase.
The Sam has 45.5cm chain stays and the Homer has 47.5cm chain stays.  As for my opinion, I prefer the ride of the Sam.

Great topic.

[Jesse]

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 9:54:07 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:

- yes the front wheel is harder to hop over things, but there is nearly no need because of weight distribution of the bike. Yes, I still go over logs and rocks, far better than my Hunqapillar does.

DP, can you expand on this a bit? Thanks.

[masmojo]

Leah, you basically confirmed what I was saying, not so much who the typical Rivendell buyer is, but who they are not and that is a person who makes a habit of reading Bicycle discussion groups. We are the overzealous, over analytical, OCDs who agonize over tube lengths; we are the exceptions and likely a thorn in Grant's side. If you've been to Rivendell HQ you know there's a luxury sports car dealership right next door (Maserati I believe), my impression of Walnut Creek is pretty much summed up by that. My impression is many of the locals wouldn't think twice about dropping 2 or 3 large on a bike & parking it in the corner of the garage. A very beautiful expensive bike that likely never gets ridden. That to me is kind of the curse of the expensive bike.
The North American Handmade Bicycle Show will be in town in March and I am for sure going, if for no other reason than to gawk, but in the back of my mind I am thinking "should I or shouldn't I?" An angel on one shoulder & a devil on the other; certainly a blank check could get me anything I desire. Hmmmmmm . . .

Question is if I get a Custom Retrotech or Blacksheep, etc. Would I ride it? Might it be too precious? I expect I would, but I would have to really think about it and if I have to think about it, is it worth it? Sorry, slightly off topic.

[Deacon Patrick]

Sure, Jesse. See photos in this post: https://deaconpatrick.org/spring-snow . They show how far behind the front wheel I am. It is relatively unweighted, so free to float over anything it encounters. With 27.5+ tires, it has an outer diameter of close to 30". That gives a lot of rollover clearance without much weight on the tire, and giving the front wheel a wee hop to help that for bigger, vertical bits, it easy. When I first rode GBW I was amazed by the wonderful ease and flow of mountain trail riding with this set up. Yeah, I'd read Grant's descriptions of it, but I really had to ride it for the "ahhh-ha!" to click in place. This really is how mountain bikes are meant to be.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Lester Lammers]

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 7:43:56 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

I have wanted to start this thread for weeks. Fearing controversy, not desiring to start fights, and worried that staff at Riv will read this, I never mustered up the guts. But the long wheelbase bike topic has come up in several threads now, and maybe we should just have the discussion. People are wanting to buy these bikes, and since most don’t live near a dealer, we need to help each other out regarding bike fit.

I got a new Clem L (unless you have been living under a ROCK you know this since it’s all I talk about. Go ahead, I dare you to ask me about the color of paint that it has. 😂) and it’s nothing like the other Clems I’ve known and loved. Why? Because it has an even longer wheelbase than than its long-wheelbase predecessors.

Recently, Rivendell pointed us to an Ask Me Anything with Grant on Reddit. It was a wall of text and I read it. Folks asked their most pressing questions and Grant graciously answered them. Over and over and over again long wheelbase bikes were brought up, and Grant offered his opinion. Longer bikes are more stable, Cadillac-like, comfortable, etc. The opposite of twitchy, short-wheelbase bikes. We know this and most of us will accept it.

BUT...what I am dying to know is this: how long can you go before it is no longer an improvement?

Example: My 52 Clementine was much more comfortable than my 55 Betty Foy. Like it was tailor-made for me alone. The Betz was totally fine, no knocks against it, but the Clementine was just more plush. So, I agree with Grant - longer was better.

The problem came with my Clem L, the 2019 version that had had its geometry changed. I didn’t know I was getting a different bike. I was surprised when I had to buy (several) different stems and a new long wheelbase bar for my Saris rack. It’s been a lot of adjustment, and I’ve been frustrated. If I understand correctly, several Rivendell models have been lengthened as of late.

The burning question I have: Can anyone tell us if the new longer bikes are better or worse than the previous (also long) versions? We know the theory, what of the reality? I’m thinking especially of the Clems, as they were already SO long. But I think Atlantis people will also have something to say...

I wanted to have this discussion because I genuinely want to know how the newest long bikes are working out for folks. But I also want to let others know that there are some things to consider if you get one of these new iterations. Will a 52 Clem fit on public transport? I think no. Will it fit on your vehicle hitch bike rack? Mine won’t. Will it be difficult for you to park your long bike in a public rack? Can you back your bike out of your garage/shed easily at this new length? What if you are right between sizes? Rivendell would have you go up, I’m not sure I wouldn’t have done better on the next size down.

Of course we can have this discussion and keep it kind, can’t we, Friends. It would be so horrible if Rivendell staff read this and saw a lot of inflammatory remarks. I think we’re allowed to have a decent and informative chat, and undoubtedly some people will find it helpful. Plus, maybe Rivendell will find it useful. If the extra long bikes aren’t meeting expectations, maybe there will be changes to future bikes.

I did put 9 miles riding up a mountain with groceries in my front basket on the new Clem L, so I’m working our relationship!
Leah

I have a 53 MIT Atlantis. I was between sizes and went up. I decided to use Billie bars which go waaay back. I did not want to trim/shorten the bars. I had to try several stems to get it 'right'. I now have three hand positions and love the ride. The Diacomp stoker knobs are great for riding in headwinds. A different saddle was also necessary. No TCO, no heel strike. No regrets whatsoever. This is the most comfortable bike I have ever owned.

No problems with public bike racks. Luckily, it fits on my vehicle rack. It would not fit on the racks of a public bus. Not an issue for me but might be to others. It would be a PIA if I had to go up a tight stairway, but I don't have to.

Leah, it was a bit of work to get it right. I understand your frustration, but it seems that you really like you Clem. Right?

[hugh flynn]

You shouldn't be surprised by that at all.  From my time working in bike retail I can say many $8k+ bikes are sold to people who don't know how to fix a flat let alone care about gear ratios, pneumatic trail, frame angles, or even the fact that handlebars can be raised or lowered. Members of the Bob/riv lists are a special, self-selected, set of enthusiast bike nerds (said with the upmost respect I assure you as I is one too). 

Do you think, for example, that Jimmy Carter agonized over chainstay length before ordering his Rivs? 

I hope not.

Hugh "just ride" Flynn

Newburyport, MA

On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 2:33 PM Jason Fuller <jtf.f...@gmail.com> wrote:

It would be surprising to me that someone would spend the money on a Rivendell without being quite educated about bikes, but let's face it, Rivendell is quite a "lifestyle brand" in a sense since Grant has a unique perspective in the industry. So I guess it could happen. Rivendells are meant to be a "don't worry about the details and just ride your bike" kind of company but at the price point, I think most buyers are fairly die-hard cyclists who have probably done a fair bit of their own wrenching.  Always exceptions, though. 

Back to the topic at hand, I do wonder where the dust will settle - the pendulum can sometimes swing a bit, and it's completely possible that the average CS length will decrease in the next three years.  Maybe it'll further increase.  That's the topic of debate, though.  I have fully bought into the idea that most people ride bikes with too-short chainstays, and I also believe that front-centers getting longer (and stems getting correspondingly shorter) is a benefit to most riders.  But I also believe that most too-short chainstays are only too short by a small margin on small sizes.  It's a completely different thing to put 50cm chainstays on a 61cm frame versus a 51cm frame, and the latter is, in my opinion, a bad idea (unless it's a touring bike).

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Hugh Flynn
Newburyport, MA

[Joe Bernard]

I believe Jimmy Carter's Rivs were gifts.

[masmojo]

Yes, Hugh that's my point entirely. I think I'd worry less about the satisfaction of getting a friction shift right & more about the satisfaction of changing ones own tire.
On the other hand bike shops are suffering now, they can use all the flats you have to be fixed!

People who don't know how to fix a flat buy bikes online. They don't have any tools, etc. Then they end up paying to have it assembled. Ultimately, these days it's not even about saving money, it's just that front end convenience of clicking & buying. Even if it means more work on the back end.
It's like they see it, get excited, click on it & when it shows up, maybe they're surprised it's not assembled!?
It hurts my brain.

[Kurt Henry]

BBDD, I think I've followed along in this thread and a few other related ones, but to make sure I'm with you:  the two bikes in your photo are both set up for you to ride vs. one of yours and one set up for someone else?  I know angles can on photos can distort distances, but it looks like the closest Clem is noticeably longer than the Clementine against the car.  Maybe 6 inches difference?  I thought you were talking about a difference that you felt when you ride or have to move it around, but that pic makes it looks like a difference that you would clearly see just walking by.  Not going to say that I'm not curious to try out one of the long wheelbase bikes, but that's a lot of wheelbase to chew on...
Kurt Henry

Lancaster, PA - where I've sold three bikes in the past 6 months, have at least one more that needs to find a new home, and REALLY shouldn't be looking at bringing one back in.  But I'll be darned if I'm not getting mixte curious.  If that's a thing.

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:18:19 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

These are fair questions, and I’ll see if I can answer them. But first, I cannot wait for your 2019 Clem L to be saddled up and ridden hard. You owe me a story. 

Next, what is making me unhappy about my Clem? Please let me say that I don’t dislike the bike - I do like it, I just wanted to LOVE it. I still just may - but it’s different than what I thought I had purchased, and I’m hoping I get used to it. It also should be said that Riv NAILED the blue paint - have you ever seen a blue so pretty?  Here are the things that irk me: 

1. It’s too long for my bike rack. That is pretty straightforward. 

2. I keep hitting it on things when I walk it backwards. It’s just so LONG, and when I’m moving it around it seems to hit into things all the time. I don’t remember the Clementine being this way, but I will admit I could be wrong.

3. In that vein, It’s awkward to lift. At school I have to lift it over a curb and I’m never certain I’m going to be able to do it. You should have seen me with the Betty - we made bike-lifting look good! I don’t remember the Clementine being this awkward, but again, I may be wrong. See below for a comparison of the Aquatine and the Clem. It’s LONG. Imagine me swinging this bike around. But I do.

4. I had to scoot my saddle pretty far forward for it to feel right. I think this is a drastic measure that really signifies the bike is too long. Website says over 5’5” can ride the 52, so why am I pushing my saddle forward? 

Today I hopped on my Betz and talk about shock. The bike felt short. I felt short. I stood up to pedal and wondered if I might fall over the front wheel. It was weird - and this was my one and only for 7 years! I would never expect it to feel weird.

Then I got on the Clem and felt like I was 7 feet tall. It’s amazing how different these bikes are and what you can get used to. I will keep at it, never fear. I want the bike to do its thing and I really want to feel comfortable. I think you’ll note your 2019 is way different than your OC. I await your report - which you will undoubtedly treat us to here.

PS Very clever - apples to clementines.

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 6, 2020, at 3:49 PM, Mark Roland <absolut...@gmail.com> wrote:



Hi BBDD! I have a horse in this race (2019 Clem L) but it's not saddled up--in fact the wheels aren't yet built. When that blessed event takes place, I will be able to compare it to the memory of my OC (Original Clementine.)

I have to say I am still unsure as to what is making you unhappy about your new Clem L. I doubt it is heavier than the old one, which had bigger diameter tubing. The extra inch of chainstay would at best be a wash. I understand the limits of a big bike in terms of portage and storage, for sure. In terms of handling, you mention it not being as "nimble" as your other bikes--so specifically, it is "less nimble" than your inherited Aqua Clementine?

It sounds like the bike successfully avoided whatever was in its path in the scenario below. Maybe you could try letting go a bit more and let it do its thing? When I first got my Clementine, the Bosco bars were way out of my normal experience. That's why I committed to giving them 100 days with no judgement, just ride 'em. This is not to suggest a compromise in any way, as is sometimes implied when the term "get used to it" is used. It just means that if your body is really feeling an actual response difference, assuming it's not something inherently unsafe, it may just be giving your nervous system and other parts of your being some time to adjust.

I had a Big Dummy for a few years, when my son was younger. Of course it was heavy, and often, but not always, loaded. But it was a fun bike to ride, I enjoyed it quite a bit, and missed it after I sold it. The chainstays on the Big Dummy were somewhere north of 80cm. So yeah, not going on the front of the bus. On the other hand, it was the bus.

How long is too long? Who knows. I guess certainly for some, anything over 41.5 is too long. Although if the Clem L gets any longer, they should sell it with an extra top tube and down tube so you can convert it to a Hubabuba when you have company. In fact, on the rare occasions I find myself alone on my tandem, it handles just fine. True, no wheelies. Say la vee.

Also, I wonder if perhaps you are feeling more the slacker head angle than the extra inch in the chainstays. I am not a bicycle designer by any means, but I suppose it is a possibility. There are those who don't get along with the slack angles of the early eighties mountain bikes. Although these days slack is back, albeit along with many other geo changes, not to mention suspension, so it's comparing apples and clementines.

Speaking of apples, I suspect that's one reason Grant is not a big fan of by the numbers critiques--it's like taking a bite of the fruit of forbidden knowledge. It really can be a rabbit hole that can both confuse and maybe even influence our perceptions. As my tai chi teacher was fond of admonishing us, "Thinking too much! Just do!"

I hope you will keep riding it and these concerns will fade away. But if they don't, I'll bet you could swap for an older model, or sell all your bikes and order a custom  candy apple Riv.

On Sunday, January 5, 2020 at 10:48:08 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

..I have been making myself take that new Clem out on challenging terrain/with loads because I don’t trust it. Today I had to swerve to avoid something and it was so unnerving because I didn’t know if the bike could do what I was asking of it. It’s a long bike, and it doesn’t feel as nimble as my other bikes do; it was fine, crisis averted, but I’d never feel this way with my previous bikes. I’m left with that awful feeling of, “Will I ever get used to this?” “Did I make a mistake?” “Am I supposed to be grateful for these improvements? Am I not sophisticated enough to understand and appreciate them?” Because after all, I’m not the bike geometry expert here. But I do have an understanding, however crude and unrefined, of how good a properly designed and fit bicycle can ride, because I’ve had one. And now I’m a lot of money and time into this experiment.

I wish I could just go back to enjoying every pedal stroke, but I know too much now. It’s so hard to get used to anything else. I don’t mean to sound ungrateful, but I am disappointed. I know I can sell the bike, but it’s not so bad that it can’t work. I’m just a little sad and disappointed because I thought it would be perfect. I think my sister would say the same about her 2019 Clem L, too.

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[Leah Peterson]

Kurt,

You got it right - those are both my bikes and both are set up for me in that photo. The 2015 vs the 2019. You notice it by walking by for sure - even if you aren’t a bike person. I’m telling you it’s a difference you feel, a difference you see, and it causes real issues on bike racks and when backing out or maneuvering in tight spaces. I remember Roberta hauling her bike up the 3 stairs into a bus and making the sharp turn down the aisle. I don’t know how that would go with a 2019 Clem.

Mixte curious - it’s a thing. And you’ll wonder why you waited and find yourself abandoning your diamond frames in favor of the mixte. They are the sexiest, loveliest and most practical and comfortable bikes. (She says as an angry mob comes for her. 😬)
L

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 8, 2020, at 9:15 AM, 'Kurt Henry' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>

[Deacon Patrick]

Important to note here too is the reality that with the mixte/low swooping top tube of a Clementine (I persist in calling it that, though technically the Clem L) and the Hillibikes Gus Boots Willsen et al, a person will "fit" 2-3 frame sizes, so part of the frame buying process is to understand which one makes sense for the riding a person does. It creates the idea for the buyer that "I could go medium and more aggressive bars (noodles, moustache, etc), or large and bullmoose/wavy/Jones, or XL and and more upright, back bars. What kind of riding do I do? 

With abandon,

Patrick

[lambbo]

Forced beausage examples (relevance, too long to bring into nyc apartment, must lock up on street, want to deter thieves looking for the ever popular giant steel mixte;) )

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 9:40:30 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:
> I really like this story, but for the forced beausage. Scraping off paint? That hurt to read. Anyway, I love that you love your Chev and it is so good to know that you find it the ultimate comfortable commuter. That’s the sweet spot for a bike for me. 
>
>
> Do you happen to know how long your 60 Chev is? I’m curious how a 60 Chev measures up to a 52 Clem L when you measure the wheelbase. If you know, will you leave it here? 
>
>
> Thanks,
> Leah
>
>

> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 6, 2020, at 5:28 PM, lambbo <anton...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 
> I have a 60 Cheviot and a 61 Roadini.  I live in a walkup in NYC and have a Volvo station wagon with a roof rack. 
>
>
> Because bringing it inside and up the stairs is impossible to do pleasantly because of the size, I keep the Cheviot outside on a sign post.  It's not ideal, and I've had to strip the paint off areas to make it uglier, painted the fenders brown, etc., so that it doesn't get stolen.  Extreme forced beausage. For me, it's worth it, because it is SO comfortable, and I commute on it daily.   I put it on my roof rack no trouble (I take off the front wheel), but it's very hard to fit inside the car with the seats down...mostly due to the Bosco's.    I think the hardest parts of living with the bike in the city is how I've set it up, with a big basket and big boscos...those things make it harder to lock up; the length doesn't matter besides bringing it inside.   My friend has a 52 or 56 and it's incredibly convenient compared to my 60.
>
>
> The Roadini is also big, but it's always lived inside, it's just a normal big bike, because it's 61cm.  I've taken it on trains and ferrys and in the car, all good. 
>
>
> I would love it if the Cheviot wasn't so long in theory, but if it was shorter it wouldn't be the same bike, and I've never ridden such a comfortable bike.
>
>
> If I had the $ and a garage I'd get the even longer Gus. 
>
>
>
> On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 8:03:57 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:
> You’ve got eagle eyes, Tom! Yes, that is an older photo of the bike - note the brown saddle and lack of fabulous wavy fenders.
>
>
> I have a 50 on there presently.
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 6, 2020, at 4:57 PM, tom coppedge <tdc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 
>
> Leah, I thought you got a shorter reach stem than what your picture shows. Have you tried a 50mm reach stem yet?  Obviously that’d address only cockpit issues, but an important one.   
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <image0.jpeg>
>
> .

>
>
>
>
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[Lester Lammers]

On Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 12:15:45 PM UTC-5, Kurt Henry wrote:

BBDD, I think I've followed along in this thread and a few other related ones, but to make sure I'm with you:  the two bikes in your photo are both set up for you to ride vs. one of yours and one set up for someone else?  I know angles can on photos can distort distances, but it looks like the closest Clem is noticeably longer than the Clementine against the car.  Maybe 6 inches difference?  I thought you were talking about a difference that you felt when you ride or have to move it around, but that pic makes it looks like a difference that you would clearly see just walking by.  Not going to say that I'm not curious to try out one of the long wheelbase bikes, but that's a lot of wheelbase to chew on...
Kurt Henry

Lancaster, PA - where I've sold three bikes in the past 6 months, have at least one more that needs to find a new home, and REALLY shouldn't be looking at bringing one back in.  But I'll be darned if I'm not getting mixte curious.  If that's a thing.

On Monday, January 6, 2020 at 7:18:19 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

These are fair questions, and I’ll see if I can answer them. But first, I cannot wait for your 2019 Clem L to be saddled up and ridden hard. You owe me a story. 

Next, what is making me unhappy about my Clem? Please let me say that I don’t dislike the bike - I do like it, I just wanted to LOVE it. I still just may - but it’s different than what I thought I had purchased, and I’m hoping I get used to it. It also should be said that Riv NAILED the blue paint - have you ever seen a blue so pretty?  Here are the things that irk me: 

1. It’s too long for my bike rack. That is pretty straightforward. 

2. I keep hitting it on things when I walk it backwards. It’s just so LONG, and when I’m moving it around it seems to hit into things all the time. I don’t remember the Clementine being this way, but I will admit I could be wrong.

3. In that vein, It’s awkward to lift. At school I have to lift it over a curb and I’m never certain I’m going to be able to do it. You should have seen me with the Betty - we made bike-lifting look good! I don’t remember the Clementine being this awkward, but again, I may be wrong. See below for a comparison of the Aquatine and the Clem. It’s LONG. Imagine me swinging this bike around. But I do.

4. I had to scoot my saddle pretty far forward for it to feel right. I think this is a drastic measure that really signifies the bike is too long. Website says over 5’5” can ride the 52, so why am I pushing my saddle forward? Pehaps the stem is too long?

[Leah Peterson]

Well, Lester, we’ve been over this. I have the shortest stem money can buy on that bike now. That’s an old photo. There’s only like 100 posts on this topic, try to keep up! 

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 8, 2020, at 2:49 PM, Lester Lammers <lester....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[j.schwartz]

@Iambbo APPROVE

[Paul Clifton]

I just wanted to drop by this thread because it's interesting and I have a couple data points to add. I have an MTBubbe (medium size) and a Rosco Baby (medium size 52cm) and my wife has a Clem L (small, I don't know what year).

Leah, do all of your bikes have the same wheel size? I've read the whole thread, but I can't remember, and I couldn't find it skimming. I kind of think the 52 cm Clem L may just be too big for you. It happens. I'm 5'9" and my PBH is like 83 cm. I'm pretty sure I have a short torso. Since you have a similar PBH but are even shorter than me, is it possible you also have a short torso? I looked back, but I can't find the numbers. Either way, regardless of the wheel base, the Clems all have pretty long reach so that they work well with swept back bars. What stem length did you finally end up with?

Here's what I've found while tweaking my long baby bike: stem length matters a lot for handling. For the baby bike, which I consider my townie/cruiser/grocery-getter, I want very relaxed handling, and to get the bike to swoopy-swoop like I want it to, I need a stem longer than 6 cm (at least). To get the reach where I want it, I need a stem less than 11 cm. I haven't found the perfect length yet, but it's really clear to me that the shorter stem makes the handling just kind of unpleasant. It twitches when I don't want it to, and it's hard to get the bike to dig in to a curve. It takes a lot of pushing to countersteer, and that makes it tricky to change lines. With a longer stem, I can sit down in the bike and just sort of guide it where I want it to go. I think a lot of this has to do with leverage, and my guess is that a longer bike likes a little more leverage on the front wheel, but I haven't done any calculations, and I'm not gonna.

Leah, what I'm wondering is whether by getting the reach short enough, you gave up some of the pleasant handling that makes the LWB bikes really shine. I dunno, but I hope you get a chance to ride a size small Clem L with a fairly long stem, maybe that will be the sweet spot. I love the stability and cushy ride on my baby bike.

In terms of power from the pedal to the wheel, personally, I think the long bike just sucks me up the hill. I don't know if it's fast, but if I have some momentum and get it in the right gear (spinny, but not too spinny) it cruises up hills just like they were flat. I'll report back after I take it for a little mountain bike trail ride. I expect it to be fun in general and probably insanely fun around banked turns. I expect it to be impractical around really tight bends. And I reckon, if the pedals and bottom bracket clear 'em, it'll roll over rocks like the cushy cruiser it is - the way Deacon Patrick describes. A lot of the way a bike rides is in how the rider rides it, so as long as I can get my weight back, the front wheel will roll.

Joe, here are some numbers including the baby bike, since you thought the Clem numbers might be for it. The Baby bike is shorter than the equivalent Clem but the front center is somewhat longer. Go figure, but it's an incredible bike.

Bike - Chainstay Length - Wheel Base

Baby - 50 cm - 122.29 cm

MTBubbe - 48 cm - 111.14 cm

Clem L - ? - ? (it's way too small for me anyway but has 26" wheels also). It's probably pre 2019. I'll measure it when I go to the garage later tonight.

As for the practicality of a long bike, I'm not giving up anything. I have space, and it just barely fits on my existing roof rack. The medium Clem L might not though. It'd be about 5 cm longer, so it might fit ... It is harder than my other bikes to maneuver into a tight spot in the garage and it doesn't balance the same when I pick it up. But none of that bothers me about the bike in general. I like it so so so much!

Here's a photo

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Paul! You like step-throughs even more than me!!!

My wheels are all 650B. My stem is a 50. I hope you are wrong wrong wrong because I really want this bike to work now that I’ve purchased it and decked it out. I don’t know if it feels twitchy in handling; not that I realize, but heaven help me if I ride Dorothy’s 45 and figure out that you are right. 😩😩😩

[Deacon Patrick]

Leah, rest assured! I used a 5cm stem for several years and loved it on both my QB and Hunqapillar. They both sport Bullmoose, at max height and also ride beautifully. Others rave about the 3cm and even 0cm stems offered by someone here recently.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

Yes and the stem length issue is being directed at a very specific situation, the Baby Bike. I'm not sure we can use that to compare to other frames.

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Paul, I re-measured my PBH and get 81. Makes more sense.

D. Patrick - that is so encouraging. Truly. I like my bars at max height as well.

I wish I lived closer to some of your bike folks and you could see the bike and how it fits and tell me if I’ve gotten it right. It feels right, but it’s amazing what you get used to...

[Joe Bernard]

Let's all take a road trip to Nevada! The Bicycle Belle Rivendell Jamboree!

[Deacon Patrick]

Leah, sounds like you're doing great and have it well in hand. I took years to learn to make big changes then dial toward wee ones. If you want, however, feel free to try the vicarious version of us being there. Ride by feel. Arms tired? Core sore? Anywhere talking to you? Hands numb? When you pedal, do the top of your hip bones go up and down because you're reaching for the pedal? Anything else strike you? Side photo of you riding on the bike, feet at 12 and 6 (top and bottom), in your normal position. Of course, you'll get too may opinions and many contradictory, so we may not be much help. Grin.

Note: counter intuitively, lowering the saddle will also effectively raise the handlebars and shorten reach, just as raising the handlebars does. I ride with my saddle lower, as that's what I preferred with fixed gear.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

Ah, that's a good data point, Patrick. If there's one thing that's almost universally true in cycling it's this: not-serious cyclists run the saddle too low, serious cyclists learn this is bad and raise their saddle too high. Everyone reading this should drop their saddle just a bit lower than they think is reasonable right now. Now a little bit more. Now ride for a week, your saddle was too high.

[Paul Clifton]

On Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 6:49:42 PM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:

Yes and the stem length issue is being directed at a very specific situation, the Baby Bike. I'm not sure we can use that to compare to other frames.

 I don't necessarily agree. I'm pretty sure stem length effects handling on every bike to some degree, and the Baby Bike's head tube angle is 70.5*, which is only a little bit slack. So I do think the concept applies. However, you're right that Leah's experience isn't quite the same as mine, and I'm definitely projecting some of my own personal nitpicking. On the other hand, many of us have bought a bike that didn't work for us (fit, handling, component mistmatches, etc.) and when you get down to a 50mm stem with Bosco bars and the bike still feels weird, it's possible that it's the wrong size.

Leah wrote:

I hope you are wrong wrong wrong because I really want this bike to work now that I’ve purchased it and decked it out. I don’t know if it feels twitchy in handling; not that I realize, but heaven help me if I ride Dorothy’s 45 and figure out that you are right.

Leah, I know you'll ride the bike and enjoy it. I rode my Long Haul Trucker with a 50mm stem for thousands of miles and loved most of them. I also fretted over how it felt for many of those miles and built and rebuilt it for years. It was definitely somewhat too big, but it was the bike I had, and it was GREAT! For me, the hardest part of being a bike nerd is letting go of a bike I love in spite of it's shortcomings (longcomings .. nah ...). It's even harder to get rid of a bike than to want a bike and not get to own it. But the bikes that I don't work and I have to get rid of always teach me something about what works and what doesn't. Either way, bike life is good.

[Paul Clifton]

Leah, I forgot to ask ...

Are you interested in selling any of those stems you tested? I'm looking for a 90mm (or 80mm maybe) and would be glad to buy one of yours.

Or maybe a trade for the 80mm dirt drop stem I have on the baby bike right now, if you are inclined to try a riser stem.

Paul

P.S. Step-throughs are about 50% of my bikes. But they get ridden the most. All the rest are uni-taskers for fast and rowdy rides, and I'd get rid of them all before the baby bike and mtbubbe.

[Leah Peterson]

I’m sorry, Paul, I sold all the stems. I heard stems will sit a while, but they were snapped right up. I’m sorry!

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 8, 2020, at 5:58 PM, Paul Clifton <paulgc...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Drw]

Hey Paul,
Can you describe the differences between the roscoe mtnmixtie (I also have one) and the Clem L?