Economical Clem

[Friend]

My friend is in search of a new bike.  Everything she describes screams CLEM to me.  Touring capable.  Big tire clearance.  Upright.  Potentially Stepthrough.  Thing is, it's hard to find a complete Clem for less than $1,300.  If you were trying to come close, with say, half that amount, what would you search for?  Thanks for any suggestions

[David Bivins]

I found my second Clem (for my better half) for about half the Riv price and it was barely used. Search every single day and search everywhere. You can automate searches using IFTTT or other internet tools or you can just check Craigslist/ebay/etc. every day, which is what I did.

I know you asked a slightly different question, but don't rule out the surprise deal and stop searching for Clems.

David in Brooklyn

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 10:44 PM Friend <jtp...@gmail.com> wrote:

My friend is in search of a new bike.  Everything she describes screams CLEM to me.  Touring capable.  Big tire clearance.  Upright.  Potentially Stepthrough.  Thing is, it's hard to find a complete Clem for less than $1,300.  If you were trying to come close, with say, half that amount, what would you search for?  Thanks for any suggestions

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[Joe Bernard]

There's also 45cm Clem H frames at RBW for $900. If she'll fit it, it won't be hard to piece together a complete bike from an old Craiglist 26" wheel mtb.

[Joe Bernard]

Btw, that's the answer to the original question. Clem was created as an answer for folks (like me) who keep buying old rigid mountain bikes off Craigslist, then spending too much money to get them rolling. You can reverse engineer this process by buying a new Clem frame and slapping Craigslist parts on it.

[Jonathan D.]

There is a 52 Clem H on eBay.

[Bill Lindsay]

Most everyone on this group could tell the story about how they knew Bike X was the right bike for them, but they couldn't afford it.  They searched for Bike Y which was almost as good and half the price.  Then they upgrade, fix, enhance Bike Y to get it closer to what Bike X would have been.  The total cost of Bike Y ends up being higher than Bike X would have been.  Finally, give up Bike Y at a huge loss and buy Bike X. 

The point being: Sometimes the cheapest option is to save up until you can buy the right bike, whatever the price. I don't know if that's the situation here.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Max S]

Old family friend used to say:  "We're not rich enough to buy cheap things." 

- Max

[tc]

Amen, brother.

Tom

[J Edward]

I’m with what others have said—your friend is better off saving up for a Clem and keeping an eye out for a used one. They seems to have a criminally low resale value, it’s exactly what she’s looking for, and will be easier than piecing together something from an old mtb.

And I say this as someone who is currently piecing together an ‘84 Schwinn High Sierra, which is taking triple the expected time, money and effort to build and is also looking more and more like my Clem every day.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I'm in this camp.  I looked longingly at Rivs and bought a Surly instead.  I spent more money converting it to 650b to get the wider tires, but (obviously) still not a Riv.  I finally bought a Riv and haven't looked back. My brother in law did the same thing.  Ditched the Surly for the Riv Sam Hillborne and has been smiling ever since.

I know that sometimes you just need something that will get the job done, but the Riv will do that with a grin on your face, and that is worth a lot in my book because the utilitarian bike will only be ridden when you have to ride it, but the bike you want to ride will be ridden to be ridden, and that's good for you and the planet.

Toshi

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[Adam Leibow]

if you are trying to do this super budget, find an old fully rigid complete stumpjumper or rockhopper from the early 90s, add the riv accoutrements, (swap the bars to boscos, add fenders, brooks saddle, basket+racks, schwalbe fat tires). done deal for easily under $600. alternatively, find a vintage MTB frameset with good clearances and build it up riv style. i have done so many builds like this.  

On Wednesday, June 19, 2019 at 7:44:29 PM UTC-7, Friend wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

(swap the bars to boscos, add fenders, brooks saddle, basket+racks, schwalbe fat tires). done deal for easily under $600.

Bosco bars are $70

All new cables/housing and grips $40

Fenders $50

Brooks saddle $120

basket $20

Racks $100 - $300

Schwalbe fat tires $90

If you are a bike mechanic and pay yourself $0 then you just need to find that complete Stumpjumper for easily under $100 to keep the project easily under $600.  If you are not a bike mechanic and need to pay for labor, then you need to find somebody to pay you to take their Stumpjumper. 

Bill 'always-willing-to-earn-money-by-taking-your-Stumpjumper' Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Adam Leibow]

i found a free stumpjumper complete at brannan and 4th last week. 

On Wednesday, June 19, 2019 at 7:44:29 PM UTC-7, Friend wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

That's a great find.  Why was the owner willing to give it away? 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[sameness]

"Grandpa, tell us that story about why you put polished Racers and a TA Carmina on that rusty old bike you never ride!"

"Sit back, kids. It was a garage sale like any other when I first swiped the greasy grime off that too-short seat tube and read those magic words: HI-TEN..."

Jeff Hagedorn

Los Angeles, CA USA

[Eric Karnes]

Not that another 'I agree' is needed, buuuuut...I agree.

If your friend is willing to keep it fairly stock and is under 5'10" (those 80s and 90s Specialized mountain bikes were not designed for taller riders), an old Rockhopper might do the job nicely. They were really wonderful bikes. But as Bill pointed out, replacing parts to turn it into a Clem adds up real quick. And then you don't have a Clem. You have a Rockhopper. Who's resale value (with all the fancy new parts) probably still isn't too much more than what you paid for the stock bike. 

Eric

[Friend]

I completely agree.  I think it needs to be a Clem.  The search is on.  Thanks for the encouragement.

[Julian Westerhout]

Bill, 

A friend gifted me a complete, fairly good 1989 Team Stumpumper (Prestige tubing, all XT) a couple of weeks ago. It was hanging in his garage and it is now hanging in my bike shed as I mull what to do with it...   That part is always fun!  :) 

Julian "the last month was N-2 but also N+2, so net 0" Westerhout

Bloomington, Il 

[Joe Bernard]

I've purchased an obscene number of old mtbs off Craigslist, and have had lots of fun turning them into something ridable and cool. That said, may Allah smite me if I ever go down that black hole you pour money into again. A Clem is a better bike and a better deal every time.

[Eric Daume]

In my experience, the stock Clem build has a number of parts that I disagreed with: the saddle was physically painful after less than a mile, I didn't like the bars or shifters, and the tires were the worst I've ever used. So even if you find a stock Clem for cheap (their resale value isn't great...), consider that you may have to budget additional dough for parts later on.

Eric

Two Clems, none now, but I do miss my old Rockhopper

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[Bill Lindsay]

Julian

I call that state: "osmotic equilibrium".  When the density of bikes inside your shed is too high, then the increased bike pressure tends to push bikes out.  When the density in your shed it too low, it's natural that bikes flow into your shed.  When you've reached osmotic equilibrium, bikes can freely flow in and out of your shed, with the net change in bike density inside stays flat over time.  It's a good state to be in.

Bill "very high pressure" Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA 

[LeRoy]

With respect to "osmotic equilibrium" and "bike density," is there a formula that helps define or establish the relative density of an individual bike?

The usual equation of "Desired/Necessary Bike Quantity being N+1" seems to assume that all bikes have a uniform "value." Or that the space occupied by one bike is the same for any bike. Experience suggests that this is true, at least in part.

However, my personal experience suggests that, with respect to osmotic equilibrium, a bike of higher cost exerts more "pressure" whether it's incoming or outgoing. An example would be that the desired/necessary acquisition of a relatively expensive bike would lead to the expulsion of a greater than singular number of less expensive bikes. This observation suggests that "bike density" strongly correlates with "bike cost" and that density is not uniform across all bikes.

To complicate that however, however, assigning greater density to a very expensive bike would also seem, under certain circumstances, to violate the N+1 state.

Leroy [Math is Hard]

[Kurt Henry]

This thread ties in well with some thinking I'd been doing along the same lines.  I was originally going to build up a 90s MTB as a townie/errand runner/occasional overnighter/occasional dirt road, double track, or light single track excursion, then started thinking I'd get a Surly Troll instead - easy rack mounting, super tire clearance, etc.  I scoffed at the recent Riv designs when they first started evolving.  But the more I've read, the more I've realized that they're really ideal for that sort of riding.  But they are too nice for what I have in mind.  Who wants to have a super expensive bike getting jostled against the bike rack at the store, collecting scratches?  That's what a beater like the Surly is for....right?  

Then I started looking more at prices.  Stock build Surly Trolls, Ogres, LHTs are in the $1400-1500 range.  That's almost as much as the Clem!  And if I'd jumped on the previous version of the Clems when they were blowing them out (being a particular fan of the mustard color, which is apparently no more), they were right in the middle of that range.  Given the choice of a Surly vs. a Riv at a similar price point, the Clems start to look a whole lot more reasonable.  Maybe I should get over this "who wants to scratch up such a nice bike" thing!  That's what strategically placed strips of cotton bar tape are for on my old Kogswell.

Kurt Henry

Lancaster, PA (common lurker, rare poster)

[Eric Karnes]

I encourage everyone to get a Riv for a commuter bike...and not to worry about a few scratches.

I bought my SimpleOne as a commuter for center city Philadelphia. Having gone through a number of cheap bikes that "I wouldn't be afraid to lock up," I found that I hated riding them. They were uncomfortable and twitchy. Finally I just buckled down and splurged on a used SimpleOne from the list. Three years and countless bike rack scratches later, I always look forward to riding it. And as an added bonus, I think it looks even better with a bit of character. There's just something about banged up lugged steel bikes with knobby tires that do it for me.

At the end of the day, Rivs ARE expensive bikes. But having decided to ditch my car a few years ago, I did some math. I'm on a budget (like most people) and certainly don't have much disposable income to waste. But I calculated that it would be cheaper to buy a new custom Rivendell EVERY YEAR than simply insuring and garaging a car where I live (not even including the cost of the car itself, gas, service, etc). The decision seemed a simple one (pun intended).

They are wonderful bikes. But at the end of the day, they are just bikes. And if mine ever gets stolen or wrecked, I can easily have the folks a Riv build me a lovely new one.

Eric

[Will]

I just bought my son an Appaloosa on closeout from one of Riv's dealers. The bike absolutely rocks. And I was skeptical at first. I have a Toyo era Atlantis, so the notion of Choco-Moose bars and really long chainstays did not resonate. 

I was so wrong. The moose bars are terrific, the long wheel base rolls great. You can't go wrong with a Clem. Pull the trigger. 

[Joe Bernard]

What's amusing about the "what if I scratch my nice Riv" worries is this project didn't start as a nice Riv. It was supposed to come in a flat black you could easily rattlecan now and again to cover scratches, but somewhere along the line they chickened out and made it pretty! 😂

[Patrick Moore]

Back when I was still working in an office across town, I found myself commuting on beaters while my 2003 custom Road hung on the wall (I also had the 1999 custom Road). In 2006 I had Dave Porter de-derailleur it for use as a fixed gear commuter, and that has been the bike's role ever since.

The bike would often go on bus bike racks, too.

So, another "+1".