Why baskets and front bags instead of rear panniers or perfect Rivendell saddlebags?

[Patrick Moore]

I'm curious why so many Rivendell-listers prefer baskets to rear saddlebags or panniers -- saddlebags in particular because Rivendell has perfected the rear saddlebag -- I've owned a dozen at least of Riv saddlebags over the years as well as probably 2 dozen Carradices and Acorns and what have you's -- currently have a late-model Rivendell 9 liter or so saddlebag that replaced an already very nice 9 liter Carradice Junior, and it is slightly more practical and much more nicely built and prettier (main reason I got it) than the Junior.

I've tried front and rear baskets, in the rear single rack-mounted baskets and pannier baskets, in front as large as the Wald Newsboy; and I've tried huge porteur front racks; but none, rear and especially front, at least on medium trail frames, allowed the sort of straight-stable, quick-cornering handling I like -- I sold my old Herse because it didn't handle as I liked ("like" defined by my Rivendell Roads) with either sizable rear or front loads.

But for real, practical carrying -- groceries, errand loads, commuting -- I've gone back over and over again to a light rack and panniers; just so much more capacious and versatile, IME. I've carried 50 lb with aplomb in thinwall, normal-gauge frames, all in the rear (not ideal but on at least 1 old frame very doable) or, better, 35 rear 15 front (current Matthews IGH Riv Road clone).

I can see light front loads for very long rides where you want to be able to easily get at the bag's contents, and I am open to being convinced that very heavy loads (50 lb of newspapers) do better on very sturdy, low-trail fork-mounted front platforms, but for ordinary Everyman riding on non-low-trail Rivendells?

49 lb:

Longboard:

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[ian m]

Short and sweet answer: I can put a bag in my basket and take it with me when I'm off the bike.

[Patrick Moore]

I used to put my work kit into a shoulder bag and put that bag into my Carradice Camper Longflap; I still don't understand the advantages of a big front basket except that you don't need to undo and re-do straps.

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[ian m]

I'm not sure how it makes more sense to put a bag into another bag than into a basket, but to each their own. My perspective probably comes from living in the Bay Area where I refused to leave anything attached to my bike that didn't look like a part of the bike or was easily removable, far less likely someone is going to steal a basket than a bag. Also not gonna catch me walking into a building lugging a couple panniers or awkwardly carrying a saddlebag. I did for a time run a Freight Baggage bag that secured really well to a porteur rack and had backpack straps to carry off-bike, but overall it was kind of the worst of both worlds. I now use a leather tote-ish bag designed for a small wald basket I purchased from Treetop goods off this list some years ago, it's pretty much perfect for daily use whether commuting or out for a ride. Really can't see how I would be getting more with a different setup

[Patrick Moore]

IMO, baggage ought to complement the handling characteristics of the bicycle. My benchmark idea of handling has been formed by 30 years of riding Rivendells which, IME, do best with rear loads, or at least loads biased toward the rear and not the front.

[Stephen]

I have basically the same reasoning as Ian, and also live in a city and dont want to leave bags on my bike when I lock up, plus i like my daily bag to not look too bikey (I use the shopsacks). Convenient and easy, easier to pile up with whatever shit i want, take a jacket or sweater off if i get hot, sling my lock into it. Does it affect handling? yep, but i dont really mind that much for riding around town. If my situation was different maybe id do things differently, but I tend to like having a at least a small basket available for an around town bike. I like the way it looks too.

-stephen

[Neale S.]

One reason to put some weight on the front of the bike is that all of your (body) weight is mostly on the rear already.

[Brenton Eastman]

If you ever want to bike-pack and go somewhere remote or accessible via single track, having your luggage up in a basket, frame bag, saddlebag, avoids the risk of catching a pannier (or both) on roots, branches, downed trees cut just wide enough for passage, etc.

I learned this the hard way on my first bicycle overnighter. My old bikes' panniers made it really hard to get to our campsite on the bike. I think panniers make sense, and they will come back into "trend" soon. 

[John Rinker]

My pet marmot much prefers to ride in the airy, open basket rather than buckled in the dark recesses of my Sackville. It's a thing of beauty to watch the wind whip through her fur and hear the whistle through her whiskers!

Also, what Brenton and Neale said.

Cheers, 

[Alex K]

There's no right or wrong way to carry your gear. Front baskets and bags are convenient for quick-grab city use. I also prefer the way bikes handle with front weight. A lot of us can't stand that tail-wiggle that comes from overloaded rear panniers. I know that I would rather do a Costco run or carry my cornhole boards on a front rack with bungee cords. I have tried it all and I will never ride with rear saddlebags again unless I'm on a long tour and my my handlebar-mounted Large Fabios's Chest, Swift Industries Jr. Ranger Panniers attached to my Pass and Stow rack, Rogue Panda Frame bag and BagsXBird Goldback medium saddlesack don't provide enough storage space for me. 

It seems like the OP is quite attached to rear panniers because it suits his personal riding style. From the tone of the responses to some of the replies, OP is looking for either validation or to be convinced that there is a BETTER way to ride/load. But bikes are so deeply personal. That's why we ride and tinker and convert and trade. So we can find the bike style and set-up that suits us best. I personally can't stand rear-weight, simply because of "how it feels." TAIL-WIGGLE is like nails on a chalkboard to me. I also love the aesthetics of high-mounted front loads, I just find it more pleasing to look at. 

Final point: I don't think that The Everyman rides Rivendells. Folks who can afford these bikes are a privileged few, and many of us have spent YEARS tinkering, switching out racks, switching out bags, saddlebags, Fabio's Chests, Carradice bags, etc. etc. So the fact that so many Rivendell-listers choose to ride with front baskets and bags means that through trial and error, we have decided that it works better for us and it "feels better." NOT saying it IS better, even though I feel just as strongly about front-loading as OP does about rear-loading. But if we all rode the same way, how boring this would all be and how would I be able to pick up cheap niche bike gear at a discounted rate when all you indecisive Riv Riders decide that "PAUL BRAKES ARE OUT AND V-BRAKES ARE IN!!!" or "BROOKS SADDLES ARE OVERRATED. I NEED A BERTHOUD!!!"

(And babies like riding in front-baskets)

On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 5:26:41 PM UTC-8 Stephen wrote:

[Armand Kizirian]

Best is both worlds! A 137 up front with either my swift sugarloaf or shopsack and 1 or 2 panniers in the rear. About all one could ask for with nearly all day-long commuting or utilitarian purposes. I scored the most recent version of an Ortlieb Vario off eBay. That has been the ultimate solution. As much as I despise the hyper-engineered materials and manufacturing processes, they have come up with a design so good that it has reduced my resistance to some rides previously (needing a backpack, but not wanting to carry one, and not wanting to put it awkwardly in a basket, or another pannier). I've gotten it down to maybe 3-5 seconds to switch between pannier and backpack. What seals the deal, is that it holds weight exceptionally well as a backpack and is very comfortable, which I think no other convertible backpack/panniers previously do very well. I use it every day and carry significant weight of a mobile office into a co-working space. Even if I paid full price, the value is very much there for me.

[Ron Mc]

If we're comparing front loads, poppers and ribs

 

 

[Brian Turner]

I think a bike looks and feels incredibly unbalanced with just two big stuffed rear panniers. Like many here have stated, the super noodly rear-end just isn't desirable. And, if you're carrying so much stuff that you're filling two big panniers, why not balance the load a bit more and carry some gear up front? Like Samwise Gamgee says, "share the load".

-Brian

Lex KY

[Shoji Takahashi]

I, too, have tried many iterations. My go-to for my commute is saddlesack and front basket. I can fit almost all my stuff in the saddlesack. The front basket is for taking off my jacket or occasional stops to the library or grocery. 

When I've ridden in and stopped at a place where I'm not sure about bike safety, the saddlesack is a bummer, though. Panniers are good for that use... The saddlesack is so large and out of the way if one's not worried about it getting stolen.

Shoji

arlington MA

[Chris Halasz]

I concur with Patrick's assessment for his criteria. 

Popping off and on a set of Ortliebs is so quick and clean, and they carry so much, and roll up so nicely, and the handy shoulder straps make them great for shopping, farmer's market or otherwise. 

As for weight, our little ten-pound Dorkie loved a bike ride, and while she preferred the front basket, when we transition her basket to the rear rack, the stability (she loved to move around, especially side-to-side on corners) improvement was significant. 

Cheers

Chris

[Patrick Moore]

This is a very good reply; yes, I am very attached to rear loads on Rivendells, have always come back to good rack and panniers for serious load carrying, and have found my Rivs to suit rear loads while being awkward with front loads, but yes, that is simply my preference.

Anyway, interesting to hear others' opinions and reasons. 

I liked the baby and marmot in baskets. Instance to contrary: Recall seeing a young man riding around carrying his miniature Chihuahua in a backpack with nose sticking out. I can't get any of my dogs to like wheeled transportation, front or rear or automobile.

Favorite old photo of rear load:

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[John Rinker]

Patrick,

Lovely photo of the flowers in the panniers. 

This discussion, like many about human preferences, it's so much about our habits and that to which we've become accustomed. 

An argument can be made that flowers are better carried in a front basket so the rider can enjoy both the view, the scent, and the pleasant thoughts of the recipient of such a beautiful gift.

Cheers, John

[EGNolan]

In my experience, as handlebars get higher and closer to the rider the better some weight in a basket works. The dual effect of reducing front end weight (lightening the front wheel & feel) AND increasing body weight on the rear end of the bike makes a front load seem ideal. If you ride drops, especially below saddle height, I imagine you'd feel the additional weight much more acutely than I do.  I've had shoulder problems for a long time and prefer Bosco's or similar on most of my builds. My 98 Riv Road (converted to 650b w/ 42's) did not want front weight when I picked it up w/ drops that were out and down. Once converted to uprights it feels better with rack, basket and at least lock than it does unweighted. 

Why a basket & bag over front panniers? To me it's easier to balance the load with my disheveled loading process. It's also somehow less serious looking. Front/Rear panniers seem like a serious touring set up, a basket feels like riding for fun. I DO use a Riv Large saddlebag for grocery getting (in addition to the front basket & bag) & a banana sack for everyday use.

To sum it up, I think rider position + geometry dictate where the weight will feel best, however, one can get used to about anything on a bike given time. 

Happy Riding,

Eric N

Indpls

[Bill Lindsay]

Any reply from me would be mostly irrelevant because of the OP use case:  carrying 50 pounds of groceries.  I never (never) carry 50 pounds of groceries on a bicycle.  I do often carry 1-5 pounds of stuff on general bicycle errands.  Sometimes I take bike parts down to the post office to mail them to you guys.  Sometimes I go to the hardware store or the bicycle shop to pick up a few things.  Sometimes I go on a ride that involves a significant temperature swing and I have clothes that go on or come off.  Anytime I'm parking my bike I am carrying a small lock.  For all those things, a basket and front bag are preferred (by me).  Maybe the OP never does those smaller scale errands, but I promise I never do 50-pound grocery runs on my bicycle.  The times where I do carry 50 pounds of stuff on my bicycle would be S24O and touring, and for those applications I load up the front lowrider panniers first, then the rear lowrider panniers, then the basket bag, and then the top platform of the rear rack.  

I have a new Rivendell Saddlebag.  I don't remember the model because it's buried in one of my bag boxes.  I don't remember if this one has ever been used.  Maybe I'll pull it out and give it another chance.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Patrick Moore]

Good point; I was thinking about bar type and position and rider position in this preference equation. 

While I do all my grocery shopping by bike, I rarely carry 50 lb of of stuff and when I do I have front lowriders and a smaller pair of Ortliebs for those. A good balance is 30-35 rear and 15-20 front; of course you do need to get the front load balanced to within about 5 lb per side. Not so the rear; just got back with only 14 lb today but all in the rear and all on one side.

And I apologize to Ian for being a bit short; long day of dealing with resume clients. (Note for those of you who plan to hire me: I give good customer service and very good quality of result. But not cheap.)

Patrick Moore, contrarian, who also dislikes wide bars, platform pedals, leather saddles, and reverse-pull derailleurs (but finds Grant's contrarian streak one of Rivendell's big draws).

https://youtu.be/oK4FZ3ks17M?t=98

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[ian m]

No harm no foul. My newest bike is a Crust Lightning Bolt currently sporting a front basket, wide(ish) drop bars, platform pedals, a leather saddle, and XTR rapid rise derailer. Everything I want out of a road(ish) bike.

[Patrick Moore]

Photo of Lightning Bolt, please?

[vernon brooks]

I’ve tried out a lot of different set ups with my Atlantis and ultimately landed on handlebar bag with Mini front rack. Having a basket is nice for hauling stuff around, but I found it feels a little clunky and out of place because I primarily ride drop bars. I am in the process of restoring a Rambouillet for my wife that will get albatross bars and a front basket. Very excited for the build frame is at D&D getting a fresh paint job from Rick.

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[Patrick Moore]

I want to see Keith P's racing basket!

Patrick "I can live with a racing basket" Moore

[ian m]

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

I’ve got a bike with no top tube, and since there’s no top tube, I think it’s best to load the front so’s to avoid the certain twistability of a step-through. I keep tools and tubes out back, and have a teeny rack to hold a rear light, but that’s it for the back. You’ve mentioned, Patrick, that you may be interested in picking up a Rivendell step-through in the future, if you do, I’d stick to front loads. And Carnival cruise lines put more up front, so there’s that scientific proof…

Happy carrying!

-Kai 

On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 5:14:32 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

I'm curious why so many Rivendell-listers prefer baskets to rear saddlebags or panniers -- saddlebags in particular because Rivendell has perfected the rear saddlebag -- I've owned a dozen at least of Riv saddlebags over the years as well as probably 2 dozen Carradices and Acorns and what have you's -- currently have a late-model Rivendell 9 liter or so saddlebag that replaced an already very nice 9 liter Carradice Junior, and it is slightly more practical and much more nicely built and prettier (main reason I got it) than the Junior.

I've tried front and rear baskets, in the rear single rack-mounted baskets and pannier baskets, in front as large as the Wald Newsboy; and I've tried huge porteur front racks; but none, rear and especially front, at least on medium trail frames, allowed the sort of straight-stable, quick-cornering handling I like -- I sold my old Herse because it didn't handle as I liked ("like" defined by my Rivendell Roads) with either sizable rear or front loads.

But for real, practical carrying -- groceries, errand loads, commuting -- I've gone back over and over again to a light rack and panniers; just so much more capacious and versatile, IME. I've carried 50 lb with aplomb in thinwall, normal-gauge frames, all in the rear (not ideal but on at least 1 old frame very doable) or, better, 35 rear 15 front (current Matthews IGH Riv Road clone).

I can see light front loads for very long rides where you want to be able to easily get at the bag's contents, and I am open to being convinced that very heavy loads (50 lb of newspapers) do better on very sturdy, low-trail fork-mounted front platforms, but for ordinary Everyman riding on non-low-trail Rivendells?

49 lb:

Longboard:

[Richard Rose]

Kai, very interesting. But this pic is beyond category!

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 2, 2024, at 10:19 PM, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY <kaivi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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<IMG_8585.jpeg>

[velomann]

I've done quite a bit of self-supported touring over the years, mostly solo, and I pretty quickly transitioned away from using a rear rack and rear panniers as soon as I started riding a low-trail 650b bike (my Ocean Air Cycles Rambler, RIP). I don't imagine I'll ever go back now. Both of my overnight touring bikes (Bantam Adventure bike and Bantam disc tourer) are designed for - and handle superbly with - most of the baggage weight forward. On the tourer I use an Acorn rando bag and front lowrider panniers (Swift Short stack), with either a Swift Zeitgeist or Carradice Nelson Longflap saddlebag. this set-up equalizes the fore/aft weight distribution and I can easily ride no-hands fully loaded.

For my Adventurebike, I don't use any panniers. I can fit everything I need in the front Fabio's Chest (sits on a custom front rack) and a Jack Supply Slugger mounted as a saddlebag https://www.jacksupplyco.com/shop/p/yolbwkp5ijyayzoys6p6rtzbhm1ws2

But I've got 5 other bikes set up for front load carrying as well. My Riv Hillborne, My Univega Via Carrisma (converted to Singlespeed) and my 89 Rock hopper all have Wald 137 baskets, with either an Outershell Basket Bag or a Swift Sugarloaf. The Hillborne also  has a Swift Zeitgeist saddlebag.

Another possibility for front loading that I HIGHLY recommend is the Jack The Bike Rack from Wholegrain Cycles https://wholegraincycles.com/

I got in on the 2-for-1 Kickstarter, and have one mounted on my fixie and the other on my beater Diamondback Apex, and they are fantastic. I just use the straps to mount a big tote bag, but they work just as well for a Wald 137, or strapping on firewood, or whatever you want to carry.

Mike M

[Chris Halasz]

A hack I now use that may be obvious to others on this list for unexpected pop-up bike storage, such as for stopping for one small item at the store and walking out with five or six items: 

I stow a thin, light, nylon musette-type bag stuffed inside a small bar or saddle bag. That way the musette is expandable, and once removed from the small bar or saddle bag, I've got that cavity available to fill as well. 

More and more I try to carry less and less on longer rides, and longer rides for me typically include a half hour ascent from the front door. I don't typically use a rack any longer, or even a large bag front or rear. Fortunate to live within walking distance of many nice grocery stores. 

- Chris 

[Patrick Moore]

I do the same thing with all my bikes. I've used VeloRetro musettes tightly wadded up and stuffed in seat wedges -- Chuck Schmidt will do custom photo prints (there's a tech term I forget) and I have Beryl Burton at time-trial speed and I lost Reg Harris in an all-out effort near the finish line) but his stock designs are all very interesting; have Dubonnet and one more retro-commercial logo that I now forget because the musette has been buried for months in a seat wedge.

But for even greater compactness at a reasonable price, Rene Herse musettes are even better, and they're black, so they don't soil like the white VR ones do.

[Jordan Rosenblum]

I ride a Hunqapillar as my commuter, and my preference is to carry my weight in a saddle bag—it disappears for me under 20 lbs, which is about my typical load on the day to day. I had previously commuted—on this bike and others—with my load primarily in a front basket, primarily because I like the convenience of a quick on/off, but didn't like how it slowed the steering on the Hunq. My solution was to use a Carradice Bagman Quick release clamp. I'm riding with a large Fab's Chest, and like to move it between bikes with different setups, so I've attached the quick release bracket to a wooden dowel. Easy to switch up setups, and is a pretty secure, and convenient option.

Jordan in PDX  

[Jacob Kersey]

Nice marmot.

[John Rinker]

The marmot abides.

[Chester]

On Thursday, February 1, 2024 at 3:42:11 PM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:

I used to put my work kit into a shoulder bag and put that bag into my Carradice Camper Longflap; I still don't understand the advantages of a big front basket except that you don't need to undo and re-do straps.

Probably the undoing and redoing of straps is the big disadvantage, at least when it comes to using a bike as urban transport, in an area where a saddlebag is likely to get stolen. It's a pain if you're hopping around.

That said, I used to have a laptop and misc inside a bag that I'd chuck into an Ortlieb Back Roller. To get the work bag off my back, and also to put it into something totally waterproof. It was super convenient, still, to click the Ortlieb right off. 

I'd sometimes go grocery shopping and load everything into one or two of the Ortliebs. Probably mostly just 15-25 pounds. Wasn't going far, so affect on handling didn't really matter, even though this was on a bike with race geo. Didn't have mounting eyelets on front fork so I was limited to a rear rack.

Chester

SF Bay Area

 

[Nick Payne]

For commuting I use a Carradice or similar saddlebag. To make it easily detachable, I use the Nitto saddlebag grip, which uses a standard rear quick release for mounting/dismounting the bag from the grip.

For loaded touring, I've always preferred a front lowrider rack and large front panniers. For example, here's how we loaded our tandem for a three week tour of Tasmania. I home-made my own panniers as I couldn't find any commercial ones large enough:

Nick Payne

[Patrick Moore]

I've told this anecdote many times before, but don't let that stop me. I once carried 50 lb on a Tubus Fly attached to a lightweight -- noticeably lighter than my Riv Roads -- 531 1973 Motobecane Grand Record (brake bridge mounting and the frame had fender eyelets IIRC). It handled such loads better than my Sam, my Ram, my 2003 Curt, my 2020 Matthews Curt clone, etc etc etc. Sure, there was initial tail wag upon a transition to standing -- I grunted it up a 4/10 mile long very steep hill at 4 mph on my computer -- 20 rpm in the 67" gear IIRC -- but it went away in a second after the transition. Usual rear loads were in the 25 to 40 lb range.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 1:28 PM Chester <cheste...@gmail.com> wrote:

... I'd sometimes go grocery shopping and load everything into one or two of the Ortliebs. Probably mostly just 15-25 pounds. Wasn't going far, so affect on handling didn't really matter, even though this was on a bike with race geo. Didn't have mounting eyelets on front fork so I was limited to a rear rack.