Has anyone ever made a Rivendell custom step-through?

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

You know I’m a Clem-lover, and mine took me through the worst days of my life this last year. It’s nearly perfect and has only one tiny flaw - it’s a bit heavy/overbuilt for a woman my size. I’m also a Platypus lover, and it’s only drawback is that I miss my step-through top tube. Otherwise both bikes are perfect.

I was on a night ride tonight, and when I nearly kicked my top tube I wondered...has anyone made a custom step-through? And why ever not?

If Rivendell ever saw fit to make a Susie Clem, I’d jump. But I don’t think there are plans for that, so I’m left to wonder...what a custom step through could be like... This is speculation only. But isn’t it kind of fun?

Leah

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

There's a famous one in Seattle, it's purple. Maybe not step through enough? Pretty step through though..

-Kai

[Leah Peterson]

Yes, Ana’s famous PurpleRiv. A mixte to die for. But not a step-through...

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 24, 2021, at 8:21 PM, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY <kaivi...@gmail.com> wrote:

There's a famous one in Seattle, it's purple. Maybe not step through enough? Pretty step through though..

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/vA47Guyb6pQ/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/ba5e1b01-cc3f-4283-8413-e803f08a3256n%40googlegroups.com.

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Where does step through start? I consider my Rosco mountain a step through, but I do need to lift my leg a bit. I think Clem L is lower, but I've never swung a leg through one.

-Kai

[Leah Peterson]

I’m thinking of Clem L. Man, that low tube is heaven. I wish I could lend you mine. Well, let’s face it, my MIXTE would be a step-through to you!

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 24, 2021, at 8:24 PM, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY <kaivi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Where does step through start? I consider my Rosco mountain a step through, but I do need to lift my leg a bit. I think Clem L is lower, but I've never swung a leg through one.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/vA47Guyb6pQ/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8ae1b91b-3530-4134-b264-7dcbdc7011e9n%40googlegroups.com.

[Patrick Moore]

Why not consider a one-off custom that combines the best features of your Clem, Platypus, and all the features that you'd like to add to those? There are a surprising number of custom builders across the country, and while some are better at some things than others, I expect that you'd find one or two who are competent to build what you want.

You might want to remain subscribed to the iBoblist, because there are very many subscribers who have commissioned custom work and can recommend builders for the sort of bicycle you want.

And there is also the option of a Rivendell custom; that might be the best option, since your predilections seem to correspond to current Rivendell models.

I have owned 3 Riv customs, and 2 more from a local builder. Taking the good and the bad overall, I'd say that, if you really, really want a bike of your dreams, and really know what you want; and -- #2, if you can find a builder who "synchs" with what you want, then a custom will in the end give you more satisfaction and cost you less than if you were to serially try and try to modify multiple stock bikes.

One other piece of advise: take it slow. (Shakespeare uses adjectives adverbially, so that's fine.) Give yourself enough time to thoroughly think your ideas through. I thought of my last custom for what, 3 years? I'm glad I did.

And lastly, be aware that the more refined your ideas for the ideal bike, the more possibilities for errors by the builder. Yep, despite all the planning and foresight, I can name half a dozen things I'd have had done differently on my last 2 customs. But each of them is at least 85/100, and given the alternatives, that's not a bad ratio.

But take it slow, come to know what you really want, take the time to find the right builder, and build a close relationship to that builder, so that you can communicate frequently and openly throughout the build process. 

And even more lastly: be prepared to spend the money to get the thing done right. Chauncey Matthews did a 9/10 job on my ~2015 "road bike for dirt," and -- I pushed him pretty far beyond his habitual build categories -- at least 8/10 on my 2020 "weird road bike for very narrow 1950s hub at the same time as for 42 mm tires and fenders," but I realize now that I should have looked for someone more experienced in building integrated bicycles -- fenders, racks, dynamo lighting. But if I ever get around to replacing that Monocog that, after all, is still so much nicer than your Platypus, with a lighter frame, Chauncey would be exactly the right person to build it.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/01e50aae-f88f-419b-a8b8-20a341937427n%40googlegroups.com.

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Joe Bernard]

Kai, 

I think the whole mixte/step-through thing can get convoluted and confusing because a lot of frames we nominally call mixtes apparently aren't. I believe - I could be wrong - the only true mixte is the Platypus frame style (also Purple Riv Ana's) where the dropped toptube meets a third set of stays that travel all the way to the rear of the frame. Therefore your Rosco Mixte and my Riv Custom Mixte are really step-throughs. But mine is higher than the Platypus mixte and Clem L step-through so what the heck do you call that?

What I think Leah is asking is if there's ever been a Riv Custom step-through with a really low toptube, and I can't remember one. But it sure would be sweet, it could be done with a combination of lugs and fillet joints just like mine got. Check out the pic and imagine my toptube was dropped way lower, then did that nice Clemmy curve at the bottom to meet the seattube with a fillet weld. Someone should order this! I'll bet it would look great in Raspberry Metallic 😉

[Mark Roland]

This is not correct. A mixte is not a step through. Because, at least without serious contortions for a normal person, you can't step through it. They are two separate designs. A mixte can more easily accomodate certain clothing choices, and with more clearance allow for sliding off the saddle for frequent stopping in city traffic. Can also be mounted similar to a step through if you lean it enough or step like a Rockette.

Step throughs do not have the same triangulation found in a diamond frame, or even a mixte. (This is also why mixtes with twin, side by side skinny top tubes are often rather noodley in larger sizes and/or carrying loads.) Start using very light tubing on a step through, and you will start to introduce a bad kind of flex--especially if you want to carry a thing or two, which is part of the point of a Clem L, no? A loaded 59cm Clem L apparently verges on this unwanted flexing, according to reports out of Rivendell during the early days of the Clems.

Even if you designed it using the same tubing as a Susie, by the time you add everything back on, you will hardly have made a difference in terms of ride response, other than to possibly introduce  unwanted flexing under load. Unlike peanut butter and chocolate, some combinations are just not meant to be; they are contradictory by their very nature. Learn to mount the Platypus like a regular diamond frame until you hit your 70s or 80s, or practice leaning it away from you before performing the step through. In any case, I suspect it's those big ole cowgirl boots causing the problem;^)

[Eric Daume]

I’m 6’3” and mostly leg, but after mostly riding my Bike Friday last year, I really grew to appreciate the low step thru. Then I toss a leg over one of my 25” level top tube frames and I’m like, whoa, that tube is way up there!

Eric

Who may get a Clem L at some point, after two Clem Hs

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8ae1b91b-3530-4134-b264-7dcbdc7011e9n%40googlegroups.com.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/9267FACF-9E4E-4B2B-B1EE-C40255BCC9D8%40gmail.com.

[Joe Bernard]

Well I think getting into a debate about mixte/step-through is off the topic anyway so I'll bail on that. I do think a custom step-through can be successfully manufactured for a very light person. The Platypus and Clem L are production models and are massively overbuilt for the rider in question, a Riv step-through built to her specs would be a stunning bicycle!

[Leah Peterson]

I’m fairly certain this is what Grant would say if I asked him to make such a bike - the Clem L isn’t that much heavier, stick with that. 

I would guess you could shave off a couple of pounds of frame weight, which I believe I would notice. I don’t know how light you could make the bike, but I wish I could make the Clem a *bit* easier to work with. The XL wheelbase and stout tubing make it quite the workout to lift up on the stand. And the bike doesn’t exactly fly up the hills. But, it is supremely comfortable, and I think, beautiful. I can only imagine how a custom version would be even more wonderful.

I remembered Laing’s cargo-type Rivendell. He has Keven’s rejected custom; it’s a step-through with integrated rack, so I guess we know of ONE step-through custom.

It’s hard for me to believe a lighter step-through would be too flex; hasn’t Europe ridden such bikes for a million years? Are they all overbuilt tanks with nothing lightweight in the mix at all?

What an interesting and fun topic! Thanks for chiming in!

Leah

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 25, 2021, at 8:08 AM, Mark Roland <absolut...@gmail.com> wrote:



--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/vA47Guyb6pQ/unsubscribe.

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/d3efbc43-1a81-47f6-aa15-391c80532c34n%40googlegroups.com.

[Joe Bernard]

Yes there's always the factor of Grant recommending being fine with the production frames - he's famous for talking people out of the more expensive option if he feels it's not really necessary - but there no substitute for imposing your own max weight figure on a custom. A Susie-ed version of the Clem L brought down to an even lower max weight than the original Susie number could, I think, be done and be an amazing bike. 

Joe Bernard

[Jim M.]

On Monday, January 25, 2021 at 12:07:32 PM UTC-8 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

 hasn’t Europe ridden such bikes for a million years? Are they all overbuilt tanks with nothing lightweight in the mix at all?

There are some lightweight mixtes built by constructeurs, but the step throughs are all tanks.  

jim m

walnut creek

[Leah Peterson]

Really! Can you tell us more about this? I just have no knowledge of mixte vs step-thru engineering. I’m fascinated. Please do share with us if you have any more knowledge on the matter.

Leah

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 25, 2021, at 1:55 PM, Jim M. <math...@gmail.com> wrote:



--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/vA47Guyb6pQ/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/7501e75f-7458-4e28-95c0-56e4b0e721d8n%40googlegroups.com.

[Roberta]

I learned almost the hard way that a mixte is a trip-thru, not a step-thru; I nearly went down on my first She Devil test ride.  You lean yours away from you?  I lean mine towards me.  Perhaps I'll try that alternate method.

[Jim M.]

On Monday, January 25, 2021 at 2:51:55 PM UTC-8 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

Really! Can you tell us more about this? I just have no knowledge of mixte vs step-thru engineering. I’m fascinated. Please do share with us if you have any more knowledge on the matter.

 

I'm not an expert in vintage mixtes, but I do know that Gitane, Peugeot, Motobecane, and Raleigh all made very nice mixtes from 531 in the 70s. I had one from Gitan for my daughter that was a very nice ride. I believe Miyata or Fuji made some from Tange Prestige too. Here are some customs: one from Rene Herse https://vintagebicycle.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/rene-herse-mixte-1947/; and one from a British builder, Major Nichols, https://vintagebicycle.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/rene-herse-mixte-1947/

I'm sure Grant could explain, but I imagine that without the mixte diagonal tube, the stepthrough needs stouter tubing. But hey, you might as well call and ask what he says about a lightweight stepthrough.

jim m

walnut creek

[Philip Williamson]

Here is Sumehra’s pink custom with S&S couplers.

https://twitter.com/sumehra/status/879020629663592449?s=21

Philip

Santa Rosa, CA

[Philip Williamson]

I have only ever heard mixtes referred to as a kind of step-through bicycle, not as separate concepts. “All mixtes are step-through frames, but not all frames are mixtes.”

To my eye, the Clem L design starts out as an “Anglais,” and kicks in a little “col de cigne” at the seat tube, for style.

Philip

Santa Rosa, CA 

On Monday, January 25, 2021 at 8:07:56 AM UTC-8 Mark Roland wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

Well that's quite the fascinating list. So the Platypus (and Cheviot and Betty Foy) are Mixte Sports! But now we need a name for my custom which is sorta like the Rosco "Mountain Mixte", and I would include the Gus/Susie in there, too. They have dropped toptubes compared to a traditional diamond frame, but it's more in the range of modern mountain bikes if you imagined that those frames had taller seattubes holding shorter posts. I had a German ebike with a "mid-dropped" tube they called Low-Step, and Velo Orange has a Low Kicker now. But we need something cooler, and the more French and harder to spell the better. Your move, Philip!

Joe "yes, it's a trip-thru when I do it" Bernard

[Leah Peterson]

2 Thoughts:

First Thought: Philip, fascinating! Thanks for posting that link; I had no idea there were so many variations of dropped tube bikes.

Yes, I did see Sumehra’s bike years ago. It was her pink custom mixte (mixte sport?!) and Cyclofiend’s red Glorius that kicked off my desire for the mixte I finally have in raspberry metallic, which is the perfect combination of their colors.

Second Thought: I don’t have the guts to call and ask Grant about a lightweight Clem L. Others will say that a pound or two doesn’t really make that much difference, and I should focus on the engine and get more fit.  But I have to disagree. I’m happy to back it up with limited, biased personal information! 😂 

The engine, aka, me: I work out every day, and hard. I’m 39. I run. I lift weights. I do core. I ride every day. My husband likes to lift me up in a bear hug and say, “You’re like a biscuit. Solid.” This is about the best physical condition I ever expect to be in. I have not neglected the engine.

So, what about bike weight? I spent 2020 trying to log 3,000 miles, and nearly all of those miles were on my big, blue Clementine. I bought new wheels and a tubeless tire set up and it noticeably lightened the bike, and it helped with the hills. But even so, I was never fast; I gave up trying to chase roadies up Killer Hill because I never caught them. When my boys were little and we began to bike to their new school (Killer Hill stood between it and us) I got my littler son, a 1st grader, a new bike with gears. A Giant in neon yellow. He was demoralized by that hill every day, while my 4th grade son had no trouble. One day I realized that the 24 inch Specialized was lighter than the 20 inch Giant. Ugh. I had put no thought into the weight of the bike - possibly because I was influenced here. That day, I bought an Islabike and my little boy danced up the hill and beat us all from that day forward. 

When the Platy came, magically, I was quick. I catch and pass men on road bikes all the time now, Bosco bars and all. My bike feels too easy to pedal even in its hardest gear. It’s not a workout for me, even up Killer Hill. It’s easy and it’s fun. 

Those two bikes now have the same accessories (bags, phone mounts, aluminum Boscos, metal fenders, rear racks, dyno) save one thing - the Clem has a basket rack with a Wald. And yet, the Clem is just so much heavier. I know it when I carry either bike over the median that intersects my bike path. I know it when I pedal up Killer Hill. I know it when I lift the bikes onto my vehicle bike rack. And every single time I think, “I wonder what it would be like to have this Clem in a light-weight version.”

Leah

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 25, 2021, at 11:40 PM, Philip Williamson <philip.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have only ever heard mixtes referred to as a kind of step-through bicycle, not as separate concepts. “All mixtes are step-through frames, but not all frames are mixtes.”

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/vA47Guyb6pQ/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/9bcee3f6-05f3-4750-95e3-ede4cc7c3df3n%40googlegroups.com.

[Mark Roland]

You're on the wrong list advocating for French spelling, since RBW does not even spell derailleur correctly (that's mostly in tribute to SB).

I'm not going to argue what is a mixte vs. what is a step through. If you want to call your mixte a step through (do people who claim this even have a mixte?) by all means, knock yourself out. Over the history of the many variations of bicycle frames, certain ones have stuck and been referred to in certain ways. If you want to cancel that, oh well.

To the matter of construction, if you go to the Rivendell page for brakes, you will read this:

Don't go to the Hof Brau if you're a vegan, and don't shop for disc brakes here.

And you might want to add, don't shop there for the lightest bicycles, custom or not. It's just not their thing, it doesn't jive with how they see the best use of bicycles. Striving for light weight as even a secondary goal is against the all purpose utility of a Rivendell. (I also suspect Grant was put off a bit by the tendency of some MB-0 bikes to not hold up well under hard use. But that is total conjecture and speculation.)

Here is another Rivendell quote, from the Susie/Wolbis description:

The frames are only about 12oz less, and there is NO ride difference.

So now put on racks, fenders, lights, bags, snacks, water bottle. Are you going to be able to toss around one more easily than the other.? Will you notice the difference taking it off a car rack? Let me tell you that the Susie is no gossamer lightweight. These are Rivendells. They are Rivendell Hillibikes. It's all relative. This is OS tubing and it is not thinwall.

Yeah, there are custom builders who will build you a beautiful lightweight mixte. Bryan of Royal H. Cycles in Boston built one to Lovely Bicycle/Veloria/Constance's specs a decade ago.  (It was for sale for a long time on ebay, but whatever her motivation for selling, she certainly loved it initially. From her blog: It is freakishly light, and luxuriously, almost abnormally comfortable while at the same time being faster and more responsive than any upright bicycle I have ridden before. It is more responsive than the vintage mixte, "Marianne," I used to own, which I had complained was "twitchy". )But that is a mixte, not a step through. I'm not sure how many builders would be willing or able to tackle a step-through. I don't know if they could bend lightweight tubing into the necessary shapes. Even if they could, I suspect they would decline due to potential for not such a great ride as discussed above.

Mark in Beacon currently with four mixtes, the best step through in the world (El Clem of course), and a SusieSwoop.

[Mark Roland]

I also have a Berceau mixte. Awaiting a complete redo this spring, including paint. Using Philip's rating system, definitely this one would be Hot.

[Benz Ouyang, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Tuesday, January 26, 2021 at 7:50:25 AM UTC-8 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

…

So, what about bike weight? I spent 2020 trying to log 3,000 miles, and nearly all of those miles were on my big, blue Clementine. I bought new wheels and a tubeless tire set up and it noticeably lightened the bike, and it helped with the hills. But even so, I was never fast; I gave up trying to chase roadies up Killer Hill because I never caught them. When my boys were little and we began to bike to their new school (Killer Hill stood between it and us) I got my littler son, a 1st grader, a new bike with gears. A Giant in neon yellow. He was demoralized by that hill every day, while my 4th grade son had no trouble. One day I realized that the 24 inch Specialized was lighter than the 20 inch Giant. Ugh. I had put no thought into the weight of the bike - possibly because I was influenced here. That day, I bought an Islabike and my little boy danced up the hill and beat us all from that day forward. 

When the Platy came, magically, I was quick. I catch and pass men on road bikes all the time now, Bosco bars and all. My bike feels too easy to pedal even in its hardest gear. It’s not a workout for me, even up Killer Hill. It’s easy and it’s fun. …

You can't argue against physics. A couple of pound here or there won't really make a big difference on most rides, especially if you're just on a bike ride. A full water bottle is about 1.5 pounds, for example, and I can't usually tell if my two water bottles are full or empty on rides (I have to shake them). Thus, your comment about suddenly being able to catch and pass men on road bikes because you're on a Platypus can't really be supported by physics, if indeed weight is the only differentiator. I also suspect you may be severely underestimating the concept of placebos and that extra 100 watts a new bike can bring. :)

I'm fortunate enough to have too many bikes, from lightweight, mostly carbon+titanium wonders that'll probably float away with a strong breeze, to my stout Atlantis that weighs more than my Wilbury (here's the mixte reference for relevance!) because it has front-rear racks, full stainless fenders, basket, dynamo lights, and a heavy Abus lock on it full-time. Anyway, on longish climbs (e.g., Kings Mountain or Old La Honda, which averages almost 8% for 3-4 miles), when I'm just tooling along with friends and not trying to make PR, I can't tell the difference between my lightweight wonder and my moderately heavy 24lb randonneur (Riv custom, also with fenders, dynamo light, front rack, etc), based on a clock; that's almost a 10 lb "penalty" I can't feel if I'm not actively looking for it. Come to think of it, on leisure rides, I've intentionally taken my super-duty Atlantis because it can carry all sorts of goodies for the post-ride snacking, and I wasn't penalized or regretful of the decision.

What I have found to really impact the "feel" of the bike, in terms of responsiveness and subjective "lightness", is the tire. On the same exact bikes, having supple, better rolling tires such as the Rene Herse tires can make a night-day difference, compared to lesser tires such as the Schwalbe Kojak or even the evergreen Pasela. I haven't really measured the objective differences with a stopwatch, but I wouldn't ride those tires on fun rides, just from the feel alone. In fact, I've gone so far as to switch over all my bikes to nice rolling tires, predominantly RH tires, Pari-Motos, Hetre Extra Leger, Challenge Paris-Roubaix, and ThunderBurts, much to my wallet's "amusement". I've also managed to convince skeptical friends to try, and they too found that perhaps buying tires at stupid prices isn't such a crazy idea after all.

Another factor I've been trying to reconcile is what Jan Heine refers to as "planing". I'm not sure I accept his explanation fully, but I have bikes that ride noticeably better than others, and 1. it has almost nothing to do with its weight (the aforementioned Riv custom randonneur is fantastically "lively"), and 2. it is only somewhat correlated to its expected frame flexibility (my flexiest bike isn't the best to ride). Again, no stopwatch verification, so I'm taking from subjective feel.

I do understand the need to have a light bike for portage though. A friend of small stature often complains about having to lug her bike up stairs, but the activity of cycling isn't lugging bicycles up and down stairs (or onto or off bike racks).

Anyway, just my $0.02. Try the nicer tires. Maybe you'll beat the men on road bikes up Killer Hill just the same. And even expensive Rene Herse tires are cheaper than a new custom frame+fork (and if you don't like the tires, you can sell it slightly used for not much loss).

[Mark Roland]

Agree and agree. A number of folks, including me, have mentioned tires as a much bigger factor than weight in these threads. I went so far as to put RH Switchback Hill (the Extra Lite version!) on my Clem L.  I assume the frame and fork may be heavier than my Susie, and the overall bike certainly is, what with Dyno lighting, racks, panniers, and fenders. But as I reported, the Susie currently has Teravail Honchos vs. the Switchbacks, and obviously no contest. (My wallet, unlike yours, is not what I would call amused. But it does not begrudge the expense.)

However, I think the difference in ride that BBDD is perceiving is more than placebo. I think, along with tires, the design of the frame and the rider setup and the larger wheels will all contribute to a different feel. Any significant increase in speed for a given wattage output might be debatable, but in terms of perception, a real thing. It's partly why it can be hard to convince ex-racers that a 38mm tire pumped to 60 psi rolls as fast as a 25mm pumped to 90 psi -- the body is conditioned to perceive the harsher ride as faster.

[iamkeith]

For what it's worth, as a tangentially-related comment:  I traded my Clem H for a Susie and, despite me being over the stated weight limit and having a lower and effectively longer top tube and despite having theoretically lighter tubing, the Susie feels torsionally stiffer than the Clem H.  I'm not sure if it might have something to do with the fillet joints or the shorter chainstays or what, but the formula for predicting frame stiffness seems to be a bit vague.  I WILL say that my new wheels are much stiffer and that probably helps.  A combination of a flexy frame and wheels could make my Clem shudder and feel noodly at times, so a good set of wheels built around wide rims is probably appropriate for any frame that you'd expect to be flexy.

[Leah Peterson]

Good response, and lots to think about here. 

I do want to clarify that I am *not* thinking of getting a custom step-through. I only wondered if someone had, and if it was lighter than the Clems, and therefore felt faster. I can think only of Keven’s custom, and that one is NOT light, with its integrated rack and all. Despite it feeling slow/heavy to me, I really do have affection for my Clem. 

I certainly can’t argue with physics, if they are as you interpret them. The thing is, I *do* feel the difference between having my 32 oz Hydroflask on my bars or not. I *do* notice when I’m carrying less weight on my bike. How to explain that? So, then I wonder what the difference is between you and me - because these things are unnoticeable to you. I hope we hear from some other women besides me, because that is the obvious and biggest difference between you and me.  

My Clementine was my only bike until Thanksgiving, so everything I did on a bike, I did on THAT bike. Hauling, pleasure riding, trying set records, running errands, calorie burners...the Clementine does them all. But it is not FAST. And why can’t it be, if weight is not the problem? It has an expensive and light wheelset with Gravel King slicks, so maybe not the $$$ RH tires, but still good, right? 

Alright, I’m getting lost in my own thoughts over here...what hope do you have of deciphering?! But I really appreciate the conversation and exploration. I just want to understand.

Leah

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 26, 2021, at 8:36 AM, Benz Ouyang, Sunnyvale, CA <benzo...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/vA47Guyb6pQ/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/d9c910ab-d874-49cb-8fa6-95cf36248f2fn%40googlegroups.com.

[Linda G]

Leah,

    Wasn't your Betty Foy a little lighter than the Platypus? How did that feel for speed? I was considering a Platypus until I saw that the chainstays were going to be longer than the Cheviot. The top tube is already longer than I need since I'm happy with handlebars than only curve back slightly. So all of that adds weight I don't need. The Rivendell philosophy considers weight to be unimportant. I get it. Their main customer base is men and with 2/3 of the population being overweight or obese they have to design for people who are significantly larger, heavier and stronger than I am. I love the aesthetics and quality of their frames as well as their business philosophy. I like my Roadini but I don't want a bike that's any heavier and I'm pretty sure the frame could be lighter and still be safe and functional for me.

    A lightweight step-through frame would be a design challenge. I like the step-through idea since it feels safer on a crowded MUP such as I have near me. I have thought that when I feel a need to switch to that type of frame I will get a Bike Friday which has low step-over.

    As far as getting on/off bikes I have always used the "cowgirl" method: left foot on left pedal, push off with right foot and swing my leg over while in motion. I have never had the flexibility to swing my leg over a diamond-frame bike with my left foot on the ground. I had no idea until recently that my mounting method is "wrong" because it puts sideways stress on the frame. I have a true mixte frame, Velo Orange, and can just barely step over. That frame has the traditional double "top tube" and there's too much flex if I'm carrying a load or riding on gravel. Rivendell has the right idea with a single "top tube"

Linda 

[Leah Peterson]

Linda, YES, THIS. There is a major physical difference between men and women. I’m so glad to hear your perspective. You are so right; Rivendell has to design safe bikes for people of all sizes and both sexes. But heavier/stouter may not serve women or lighter people as well. 

I’ve mentioned that I love to work out; I’m in good shape. My husband is a suit and does only light exercise; he is thin, but not fit. We have 2 boys and sometimes the boys and I will take my husband on and wrestle, and he wins every time. Doesn’t matter how fit I am or how out of shape he is...I lose every time. That might be the difference with the bikes, too. What is a physical hurdle for me is not for a man? It’s a working theory I have but may not be able to prove.

I don’t know if the Betty was lighter than the Platy. The Platy feels plenty light to me, and also NOT long. I know the chainstays are longer (“a hair longer” per RBW) than the Cheviot but they don’t feel excessive to me, at all. How fast was the Betty...well, I could take on the roadies on Killer Hill and often win. I’ve never accomplished that on the Clem. I know I shouldn’t push you towards a Platy if you don’t really see it suiting you, but it’s so good that I hope you get one anyway. 😬

Thanks for the info on the mounting techniques - I didn’t realize your way would put stress on a frame, either. But, it’ a Riv and you’re light, I’m sure it can take it. I know what you mean about mounting your mixte; I feel that, too. It’s my only complaint about my bike. The step-throughs are just fantastic. But heavy.

Leah

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 26, 2021, at 11:12 AM, Linda G <orego...@msn.com> wrote:

Leah,

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/b3920362-2422-40f3-b5e1-281f2ce9e3f9n%40googlegroups.com.

[Joe Bernard]

*Disclaimer: I promised myself I wouldn't come back to this thread and get into a debate about lightness but I'm Joe Bernard, world reknown for not knowing when to shut up! So here goes..

In this very specific case of a very light and strong rider who's already got that motor in tip-top shape, the weight of the frame is going to matter. Swapping out to custom wheels and better (and tubeless) tires isn't in the offing because that's already been done to these bikes. Does this mean Riv production frames are too heavy? Of course not, it just means they're built to a standard the average buyer can ride without snapping in half. Which brings us to the Custom Clem idea, which - this is the part where I start repeating myself and drive y'all crazy - I wouldn't approach as "Hey can you make me a superlight frame?" It's simply a matter of having a frame designed around the rider's height and weight, plus expected level of poundage to be carried in bags. This is how my bike was built and while it's certainly not a superlight as I'm not a superlight rider, it's lighter than any production Riv I've ever owned (and I've owned a bunch). Noticably out of the box and noticably built up and ridden. 

As the old adage goes, less weight costs more money. A custom frame is more expensive than a production frame and one of the luxuries you pay for is it can be built to a max weight limit I and most of the dudes in this thread probably couldn't ride. Because it's custom and not for us! I think this bike would be spectacular. 

Joe "for the love of Pete is he still talking?" Bernard 

[Joe Bernard]

Of course while I was laboriously typing my latest manifesto Linda and Leah covered it all more succinctly and with more flair. Oy! Anyway I stand by my redundant comments. Repeatedly! 

[Mark Roland]

You are missing the other half of the argument.  There is a reason virtually every step through out there runs the gamut from beefy to tank like: the design of a step through frame does not lend itself to being created from a lightweight tube set. I don't think many frame builders would be eager to take it on, even for a relatively lighter rider, though one who most definitely puts out power above her weight class, another consideration. I don't think Rivendell would do it as a custom. I could of course be wrong. One last time, there is a reason the basic safety bicycle ended up as a diamond frame, ie, two triangles. Go away from that and you need to start beefing up your tubing. This is why you see the designs of the true step throughs above with one or two tubes connecting the two tubes running from head tube to seat tube.  A mixte is essentially the same physical structure as a diamond with a very sloped top tube. Which is why you can't step through it. Make it low enough to step through, and you lose the remaining strength of the triangle and need to compensate somewhere else.

Sure, Rivendells get criticized by lots of people for being "overbuilt." Many (even/especially overweight men) would say that even of Leah's Platypus. But of all the bikes in the Riv lineup to attempt to put on a diet, the Clem L is not the one to pick. Vive la difference.

[Leah Peterson]

Yes, we might be missing that part. I don’t know about step-throughs in history - I’ve only had the Clementine, so I didn’t know they tend to be beefy. 

But then, what of the Susie? That’s not a diamond frame. It’s got that swoopy top tube that must make it less strong than the diamond frame and Rivendell says to get it if you are of a certain weight. If weight doesn’t matter, then why offer the Susie?

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 26, 2021, at 12:12 PM, Mark Roland <absolut...@gmail.com> wrote:



--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/vA47Guyb6pQ/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/ac1c1f5d-ced6-4b80-9311-8abd5d110450n%40googlegroups.com.

[Paul Clifton]

On Monday, January 25, 2021 at 2:07:32 PM UTC-6 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

It’s hard for me to believe a lighter step-through would be too flex ...

I think the flex Mark mentioned may be similar to the flex they had to engineer out of the baby bike - a rotation around the axis from front to back of the bike, a twisting. They did that using an downtube that was ovalized in different directions at the top and bottom of the tube, which I think the Platypus also has, but I haven't confirmed that. Since that's in Grant's head now, and because he seems to like a bike design challenge, I would really be interested in his perspective on this. Maybe he wouldn't think it's worth actually doing, but he might have some interesting thoughts on what it would take.

Paul in AR

[Leah Peterson]

This?

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 26, 2021, at 12:32 PM, Paul Clifton <paulgc...@gmail.com> wrote:



--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/vA47Guyb6pQ/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/61d85a4c-8f40-47e9-b8b2-539f3a45c202n%40googlegroups.com.

[lconley]

As of now, I own 6 Rivendells with "lower top tubes", (1) Betty Foy (60cm - 700C), (2) Clementine (52cm - 650B), (3) Rosco Bubbe Medium Mountain Mixte 650B, (4) Rosco Baby (650B), (5) "Keven's Bike" - Cargo Bike (650B), and (6) Gus Boots Willsen (Large - 700c). I have been trying to create the perfect city/commuter bike. At 64 and overweight, I can still swing the leg over, but it is getting more awkward.

The Gus Boots Willsen doesn't really belong in this group - the lower top tube is really just for extra crotch clearance during a fast dismount - I never considered it for a commuter.

The Betty Foy has been claimed by my wife - she loves the hearts in the cut-outs and I am really too heavy for it.

My daughter just had a baby, so the Rosco Baby is going to be gone for a while, but I really like the length of the bike - I have short legs and a long torso.

Only two are what I would consider Step-Throughs - the Clementine and the Rosco Baby.

I was hoping the Keven's Cargo bike would be a step-though, but not for me, maybe for someone with a taller PBH. it does have plenty of stand-over clearance for waiting at lights though. I am currently adjusting the squeal out of the V-brakes. Still needs lighting and fenders installed to be complete, but it is rideable.

I have Wald baskets on the Clementine (Rivendell's large) - and Keven's Cargo (Wald 157 Giant Delivery). The Wald baskets are very, very heavy. I have to wonder what Leah's Clem would ride like sans the basket and front rack.

The first of these purchased was the Clementine, but I was never in love with it, but it is a step through and it is looking better over time. I had Bosco-Mooses on it, it would probably be better with Wavies on it for me.

I have yet to complete and ride the Medium Mountain Mixte.

Laing

Delray Beach FL

[Paul Clifton]

I can't tell from the picture, but I was talking about the tube that connects the top tube to the bottom bracket. I think one of the early drawing of the platypus showed it though.

On the baby bike, the tube is an oval near the head tube and near the bottom bracket, but it is circular in the middle. The plane of the ovalization changes, so if you look straight on from the side of the bike, the tube looks bigger near the head tube and skinnier at the bottom bracket. But if you look straight down from the top of the bike, the tube looks fatter near the bottom bracket and skinnier near the head tube.

I can't even draw it with a pencil to show you because my lines aren't good, and it's barely perceptible in photos. I've been trying to capture it.

So like, if you have a playdough snake laying on a table. Smash it against the table near the head and pinch it near the tail. The head gets flat in one direction. The tail gets flat 90 degrees. Now imagine doing that with a metal tube.

Paul

[lconley]

This?

Laing

[Paul Clifton]

Yep, that shows it. A vertical oval near the head tube, transitioning to a sideways oval as it gets towards that bottom bracket.

Does the Platypus do that?

Paul

[Joe Bernard]

No ovalization at the headtube based on Platy pics I can find, there's a lug there. Which is one of the cool things about TIG and fillet joints, the builder can mess about with the tube all they want without having to find or shape a lug for it. 

[Leah Peterson]

To my eye, no. I was just finishing my ride as this email came through so I shot a quick video. It appears the top tube ovalizes as it plugs into the seat tube. The bottom tube looks round to me,but *may* be a little fatter as it hits the bottom bracket. But if so, it’s slight.

[Roberta]

" As far as getting on/off bikes I have always used the "cowgirl" method: left foot on left pedal, push off with right foot and swing my leg over while in motion. "

Linda,

That is the way I get on and I never knew I was doing it "wrong"  either.  Nowadays, though, I get a bit more nervous about falling if I don't get the speed and balance just right when mounting.  I'm getting a mixte (not a step thru)--a Platypus.  It will be easier to tilt the bike and go over the top tube than what I sometimes do now--tip the bike to over an even higher top tube.

Roberta

[Joe Bernard]

I don't think I could do that 'ride the left pedal and swing over' thing without crashing every time. I lean the bike way over towards me and put my right foot on the right pedal in about the 2:00 position, then push off to vertical as my left foot rises to that pedal. It works the same on all frames but is certainly easier with a low toptube. 

[Paul Clifton]

Cool! Thanks for the video! I wonder what the ovalization at the seat tube is for. My guess is also twisting. I think it's a really cool feature, and I suspect it expands the possibilities for step through frames.

Paul

[Philip Williamson]

If you aren’t messing up your wheels, my understanding is that “cowgirl” style is fine. 

If you lean the bike WAY over with all your weight on one pedal, maybe you’ll need to true your wheels more often? Good wheels (in the context of this list) probably can handle it with overhead to spare. Cheap wheels go out of true anyway, so there’s no real control for the experiment. 

Now I want to try the “flying cowboy,” instead of just straddling the bike and pushing off with the left pedal, which a eems pretty style-less. I do sometimes do the “gentleman’s step-off” on the fixed-gear, where the bike doesn’t stop, and you go from riding to walking seamlessly. It seems like the bike has to lean just as much for that maneuver, and I’ve never had problems. 

Philip

Santa Rosa, CA 

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 2:38 PM Roberta <rcha...@gmail.com> wrote:

" As far as getting on/off bikes I have always used the "cowgirl" method: left foot on left pedal, push off with right foot and swing my leg over while in motion. "

Linda,

That is the way I get on and I never knew I was doing it "wrong"  either.  Nowadays, though, I get a bit more nervous about falling if I don't get the speed and balance just right when mounting.  I'm getting a mixte (not a step thru)--a Platypus.  It will be easier to tilt the bike and go over the top tube than what I sometimes do now--tip the bike to over an even higher top tube.

Roberta

On

    As far as getting on/off bikes I have always used the "cowgirl" method: left foot on left pedal, push off with right foot and swing my leg over while in motion. I have never had the flexibility to swing my leg over a diamond-frame bike with my left foot on the ground. I had no idea until recently that my mounting method is "wrong" because it puts sideways stress on the frame. I have a true mixte frame, Velo Orange, and can just barely step over. That frame has the traditional double "top tube" and there's too much flex if I'm carrying a load or riding on gravel. Rivendell has the right idea with a single "top tube"

Linda 

<all kinds of snipped stuff NOT about mounting a bike>

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/vA47Guyb6pQ/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/4198a68e-a92e-4bbd-bee1-344982bbf842n%40googlegroups.com.

[Joe Bernard]

Hmm, my bad, I should have hopped on my bike before posting. Not 2:00, the right pedal is straight down at 6:00 and I kinda coast with my foot there as the left foot pushes off the ground. Or something, this word picture probably makes no sense to anyone but me. 

[Mark Roland]

BBDD wrote:...what of the Susie? That’s not a diamond frame. It’s got that swoopy top tube that must make it less strong than the diamond frame and Rivendell says to get it if you are of a certain weight. If weight doesn’t matter, then why offer the Susie?

The top tube of the Susie meets the seat tube at a much higher point than the top tube of the Clem L.  It's much more equivalent to a  compact frame  (sloped tt), not nearly a step through. Two things. First, they were apparently conservative regarding the recommended weight. That leads people to believe its some kind of super light tubing--165lbs?! Then they revised it up. Not sure what it is now--180?

Second, I recall reading that the impetus to make a lighter bicycle came from some of the employees, and they made their case to Grant. Why offer it if weight doesn't matter? That is a good question, and in this case, the Gus has been sold out since very quickly, whereas there are still some Susies available. In reality, it is offered for the same reason you can get a green Riv or a blue one or an orange one. Or if you are really special, a raspberry. Rivendell has a rep for very sturdy bikes. I will quote the quote from Rivendell's description of the Susie one more time: The frames are only about 12oz less, and there is NO ride difference.  (Emphasis Rivendell's).

I suspect the "lightweight" Susie is still safely within Riv parameters, but there will be folks that like the idea of a trimmed down frameset just because (me included, since I already own a Clem L. Also they had no more Gus in the Large, and I wanted it to be as different as possible from my Medium El Clem. Because other than that and a few details and the fact that the Gus/Susie has the beautiful fillet brazed joint, I am pretty sure if the bikes were set up as identical as possible, and there was some way I could ride without opening my eyes, I would have a hard time telling whether I was on my Susie or El Clem. Certainly doubt I could distinguish between a Gus and a Susie any more than random chance.

Carrying weight on handlebars or in saddlebags, yes you notice the weight--as a balance/handling shift (unless you are talking about a full touring load). You can distribute the bags to achieve more balance, but with a full 30-pound touring load, yeah, you'll notice that going up a hill for sure.

[Leah Peterson]

Mark said, “Second, I recall reading that the impetus to make a lighter bicycle came from some of the employees, and they made their case to Grant. Why offer it if weight doesn't matter? That is a good question, and in this case, the Gus has been sold out since very quickly, whereas there are still some Susies available. In reality, it is offered for the same reason you can get a green Riv or a blue one or an orange one. Or if you are really special, a raspberry. Rivendell has a rep for very sturdy bikes. I will quote the quote from Rivendell's description of the Susie one more time: The frames are only about 12oz less, and there is NO ride difference.  (Emphasis Rivendell's).”

I think those Susies sat because:

1. Riv underestimated the weight limit, and there aren’t a lot of men under 165 pounds. 

2. Most men would rather ride the masculine-monikered Gus than the feminine-monikered Susie. I would also guess most of the Gus/Susie buyers are men.

Things change, even at Rivendell. Remember when it was all lugs, only lugs, never not lugs? I’m encouraged that the staff sees the value in cutting some frame weight where it can be done. Paul mused that the ovalization at the seat tube might expand possibilities for future step through frames. Does that hint that a Susie version of a Clem L could be done?

I can hope.

In fun,

Leah

Sent from my iPad

[Mark Roland]

Elliptical tubing has been around for some time. It is not going to change the fact that a step through has limited triangulation. The Susie is a much different design than the Clem L. It does not hint that a lightweight Clem L should be coming soon. (In fact, the tubing specs on first Clems were even beefier than the current iteration. I will be surprised if it goes any lighter.

In fun, would you seriously upgrade to a new Clem L if it were ten ounces lighter than your current bike (can't be twelve, 'cause you got the two extra tubes joining the putative top tube to the down tube). You know what weighs ten ounces? My phone, and my watch. Your new wheels took off a lot more than that, apparently that still hasn't changed anything drastically. I really thought you were going to set the Platypus up differently, no  fenders, no racks. This would do two things. It would make your "light" bike even lighter, and it would give you a built in reasons never to ignore your Clem L, when you need to go grocery shopping in the pouring rain. If it were me, I would strip down the Platypus and get some Rene Herse Barlow Pass Extra Lite tires and sign up for a local race or two. Just for fun.

[anniebikes]

Leah, have you ever seen the options in Europe for step through bikes? I wish we could have the opportunity to try all of them. Wouldn't we have fun!

https://www.cyclingabout.com/a-complete-list-of-womens-touring-bikes-step-through-mixte/ 

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 10:50 AM Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

2 Thoughts:

First Thought: Philip, fascinating! Thanks for posting that link; I had no idea there were so many variations of dropped tube bikes.

Yes, I did see Sumehra’s bike years ago. It was her pink custom mixte (mixte sport?!) and Cyclofiend’s red Glorius that kicked off my desire for the mixte I finally have in raspberry metallic, which is the perfect combination of their colors.

Second Thought: I don’t have the guts to call and ask Grant about a lightweight Clem L. Others will say that a pound or two doesn’t really make that much difference, and I should focus on the engine and get more fit.  But I have to disagree. I’m happy to back it up with limited, biased personal information! 😂 

The engine, aka, me: I work out every day, and hard. I’m 39. I run. I lift weights. I do core. I ride every day. My husband likes to lift me up in a bear hug and say, “You’re like a biscuit. Solid.” This is about the best physical condition I ever expect to be in. I have not neglected the engine.

So, what about bike weight? I spent 2020 trying to log 3,000 miles, and nearly all of those miles were on my big, blue Clementine. I bought new wheels and a tubeless tire set up and it noticeably lightened the bike, and it helped with the hills. But even so, I was never fast; I gave up trying to chase roadies up Killer Hill because I never caught them. When my boys were little and we began to bike to their new school (Killer Hill stood between it and us) I got my littler son, a 1st grader, a new bike with gears. A Giant in neon yellow. He was demoralized by that hill every day, while my 4th grade son had no trouble. One day I realized that the 24 inch Specialized was lighter than the 20 inch Giant. Ugh. I had put no thought into the weight of the bike - possibly because I was influenced here. That day, I bought an Islabike and my little boy danced up the hill and beat us all from that day forward. 

When the Platy came, magically, I was quick. I catch and pass men on road bikes all the time now, Bosco bars and all. My bike feels too easy to pedal even in its hardest gear. It’s not a workout for me, even up Killer Hill. It’s easy and it’s fun. 

Those two bikes now have the same accessories (bags, phone mounts, aluminum Boscos, metal fenders, rear racks, dyno) save one thing - the Clem has a basket rack with a Wald. And yet, the Clem is just so much heavier. I know it when I carry either bike over the median that intersects my bike path. I know it when I pedal up Killer Hill. I know it when I lift the bikes onto my vehicle bike rack. And every single time I think, “I wonder what it would be like to have this Clem in a light-weight version.”

Leah

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 25, 2021, at 11:40 PM, Philip Williamson <philip.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have only ever heard mixtes referred to as a kind of step-through bicycle, not as separate concepts. “All mixtes are step-through frames, but not all frames are mixtes.”

To my eye, the Clem L design starts out as an “Anglais,” and kicks in a little “col de cigne” at the seat tube, for style.

Philip

Santa Rosa, CA 

On Monday, January 25, 2021 at 8:07:56 AM UTC-8 Mark Roland wrote:

This is not correct. A mixte is not a step through. Because, at least without serious contortions for a normal person, you can't step through it. They are two separate designs. A mixte can more easily accomodate certain clothing choices, and with more clearance allow for sliding off the saddle for frequent stopping in city traffic. Can also be mounted similar to a step through if you lean it enough or step like a Rockette.

Step throughs do not have the same triangulation found in a diamond frame, or even a mixte. (This is also why mixtes with twin, side by side skinny top tubes are often rather noodley in larger sizes and/or carrying loads.) Start using very light tubing on a step through, and you will start to introduce a bad kind of flex--especially if you want to carry a thing or two, which is part of the point of a Clem L, no? A loaded 59cm Clem L apparently verges on this unwanted flexing, according to reports out of Rivendell during the early days of the Clems.

Even if you designed it using the same tubing as a Susie, by the time you add everything back on, you will hardly have made a difference in terms of ride response, other than to possibly introduce  unwanted flexing under load. Unlike peanut butter and chocolate, some combinations are just not meant to be; they are contradictory by their very nature. Learn to mount the Platypus like a regular diamond frame until you hit your 70s or 80s, or practice leaning it away from you before performing the step through. In any case, I suspect it's those big ole cowgirl boots causing the problem;^)

On Sunday, January 24, 2021 at 11:56:42 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:

Kai, 

I think the whole mixte/step-through thing can get convoluted and confusing because a lot of frames we nominally call mixtes apparently aren't. I believe - I could be wrong - the only true mixte is the Platypus frame style (also Purple Riv Ana's) where the dropped toptube meets a third set of stays that travel all the way to the rear of the frame. Therefore your Rosco Mixte and my Riv Custom Mixte are really step-throughs. But mine is higher than the Platypus mixte and Clem L step-through so what the heck do you call that?

What I think Leah is asking is if there's ever been a Riv Custom step-through with a really low toptube, and I can't remember one. But it sure would be sweet, it could be done with a combination of lugs and fillet joints just like mine got. Check out the pic and imagine my toptube was dropped way lower, then did that nice Clemmy curve at the bottom to meet the seattube with a fillet weld. Someone should order this! I'll bet it would look great in Raspberry Metallic 😉

On Sunday, January 24, 2021 at 8:24:05 PM UTC-8 Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY wrote:

Where does step through start? I consider my Rosco mountain a step through, but I do need to lift my leg a bit. I think Clem L is lower, but I've never swung a leg through one.

-Kai

On Sunday, January 24, 2021 at 11:21:14 PM UTC-5 Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY wrote:

There's a famous one in Seattle, it's purple. Maybe not step through enough? Pretty step through though..

-Kai

On Sunday, January 24, 2021 at 11:06:41 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

You know I’m a Clem-lover, and mine took me through the worst days of my life this last year. It’s nearly perfect and has only one tiny flaw - it’s a bit heavy/overbuilt for a woman my size. I’m also a Platypus lover, and it’s only drawback is that I miss my step-through top tube. Otherwise both bikes are perfect.

I was on a night ride tonight, and when I nearly kicked my top tube I wondered...has anyone made a custom step-through? And why ever not?

If Rivendell ever saw fit to make a Susie Clem, I’d jump. But I don’t think there are plans for that, so I’m left to wonder...what a custom step through could be like... This is speculation only. But isn’t it kind of fun?

Leah

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/vA47Guyb6pQ/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/9bcee3f6-05f3-4750-95e3-ede4cc7c3df3n%40googlegroups.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/vA47Guyb6pQ/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/5195B325-9498-49F1-B133-8670BF6103D6%40gmail.com.

[Joe Bernard]

The question pertains to having a lighter step-through with the toptube as low as the Clem L. The answer is yes, it can be done if you're a very light person and order a custom frame with the low max weight you can get away with. I think it would be a neat bike. 

[Leah Peterson]

Oh, wouldn’t we, Annie! I’ve only gotten a little ways in, but I had to come back here and tell you thanks for the delight. ♥️

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 26, 2021, at 5:50 PM, anniebikes <anniebi...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CAPvkTVTA3Bbc6XfWn18JPN-3mAgDupkRqEdS3eK9-H8LJw%3DQqQ%40mail.gmail.com.

<image1.jpeg>

<image2.jpeg>

[Bill Schairer]

I would agree with those that have suggested tires and wheels as the most significant improvement one can make to improve the ride of a bike and, potentially, reduce weight.  I would disagree however with the idea that you have already taken that to the max with a quality, clincher, tubeless tire setup.  I would suggest seeing if you can find a quality tubular wheel-set that you could borrow(?) to see how you like them.  The wheel itself will be lighter.  The tire/tube may or may not be lighter than the equivalent sized tubeless tire BUT, my experience has been that a good tubular has about the same comfort as a  clincher (which tubeless is) 5 mm or more wider, and has superior road feel and handling characteristics.  Since you can run a narrower tire for the same comfort, you will probably also shed some more weight.  You can get a really dreamy ride on a 30-32mm quality tubular.  The only reason to go any wider would be for the float on soft stuff or for intense/rough off roading.

Bill S

San Diego

[Doug H.]

That photo of the pedals with the leaf is pure artwork...

Doug

[aeroperf]

annie—

Speaking from experience, a lot of those European bikes are tanks.  Here is my wife’s KTM (Austrian) with an ovalized downtube for stiffness.  I really don’t like even lifting this onto the bike rack.

[Joe Bernard]

To be fair to that lovely aluminum KTM with the rare Deore LX black-and-gold group, that suspension fork probably weighs more than the frame. That bike would have started as a reasonably light ride before they added that thing to it. 

[aeroperf]

And also to be fair, my wife loves the ride and can tell the difference between types of tires.  But it weighs 4 pounds more than my Soma Saga tourer and almost 5 pounds more than my 54 Sam.  I blame the bell.  I do like the woven carbon fiber fenders designed “to save weight”, though.

[Joe Bernard]

I agree, Doug, that 'leaf on pedal' shot is way cool 📸😎