Sam Hillborne vs A. Homer Hilsen

[Paul Choi]

I'm new to Rivendell bikes and to this forum. I'm considering a SH or AHH. This would be a all-around bike that used for commuting, light touring and some occasional off road riding. These bikes seem similar. 

Can you tell me the differences of these two bikes?

For those of you that have both - your feedback would be really appreciated. 

Paul in Santa Clara, CA.

[Deacon Patrick]

Sam. The riding you just described is what the Sam is made for. AHH is more a zippy road bike designed for dirt roads too. Could you do all you describe on either? Yup. However, if both were available and price was no object, you'd still want the Sam for the riding you describe. Added bonus: it's available and costs less.

With abandon,

Patrick

[ted]

AHH top tube is near horizontal, SH top tube slopes up.
AHH is significantly more expensive. Grant has written that they are functionally equivalent.
If your in Santa Clara run up to Walnut Creek and check them out at RBW WHQ. Well worth the trip.

[Joe Bernard]

Pertaining to Patrick's comment, "it's available now", there's an 8-month wait on AHH right now because of a tubing supply issue. I vote Sam.

[Christopher Murray]

Is Rivendell even taking AHH orders now? I seem to recall an email saying they were putting a pause on the Waterford bikes until the wait times were under comtrol.

I'd get the Sam for the riding you describe. It is a bit more versatile, much less expensive, and yet the quality on the bikes I have seen is excellent. The AHH strikes me as the defining Rivendell of the early 2000s.

Good luck!

Cheers!
Chris

[Dave Small]

I have both, and I agree with the Deacon.  From the standpoint of pure joy when riding I like the Homer more; it feels lighter and more responsive when riding, although it's also smooth and stable.  After my first ride on it I told my wife that I ever had to reduce my N to 1, the Homer is a strong candidate to be that one.  

Having said that, the Sam is a bit heavier-duty, which I think would suit you better for the type of riding you describe.  The Sam's not as zippy as the Homer, but it's hardly a slug.  It feels more tour-ish, but it's still responsive and is a smooth, comfortable ride.  As the Deacon said, both would fit the bill, but in my opinion the Sam would fit it a little better.  I've set up my Sam as a light tourer and carry loads on it, and use the Homer for unloaded recreational rides.  

Others have mentioned the differences in availability and cost, which you can evaluate easily on your own.  One other consideration I'll mention is that the Homer is available is more sizes, while the Sam has more limited selection.  I've discovered that I don't like to be on the edge of Rivendell's recommended range of PBH for a model; I want to be toward the middle.  If you're on the edge of Sam's range then I recommend a test ride if possible to be sure it won't feel too big or small in the available sizes.   

Dave 

[Garth]

The one that fit best. Without a great fit, the feeling of "being the bike and the bike be me", the rest does not matter. With a great fit, the rest does not matter either. Such a bike is pure joy in motion, where you go or how you get here is an afterthought, the ride IS the destination.

It would sound great and logical and all if I told you there was a way "to" this, as if it too was a destination, but that would be like explaining a joke, and explanations are never the real thing. No one need tell us how to experience, since we are it and it us. So having said all that, you're good to go as you are, and that ironically reveals the destination that was to be.

[RichS]

At least a year or so ago Grant did a lengthy Sam write-up on the Blug where he said he couldn't tell the difference between the SH and his AHH when he rode them.

Garth is right about fit. A bike that doesn't hit your sizing sweet spot can be a source of discontent. Ask me how I know!

I do have a Sam and it's a wonderfully versatile bike. I'm in the middle of the size range for my 51 and the fit is spot on. It's also a fantastic value for the money. Highly recommend it.

Best,

Richard 

[Patrick Moore]

I agree with Rich, Garth and Grant, but I will add: depending on the rider's weight, it is possible to carry heavy-ish loads on a thinner-tubed frame. I regularly carry heavy grocery loads on my Road Custom, and the very best rear loader of all the many, many bikes I've owned -- loads up to 45 lb in the rear, on a stiff rack (but it weighed only 11 oz!) was an early '70s, light tubed racing bike. No kidding.

Instance 2: my recently acquired (May, 2016) "road bike for dirt" is built of road gauge, thinwall, heat treated True Temper road tubing. It's certainly more than stout enough. I'm 175 buck nekkid.

So don't necessarily let tubing gauge and diameter dictate what frame you should use for loaded touring or off road riding.

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[drew]

Former Sam owner. It can do everything you intend to do with it. In the 2 top tube version, it rode a lot like my 83 specialized expedition touring bike. I easily was able to fit 50mm tires, and with Paul racers it stopped as well as any of my canti bikes. I don't know if the clearances are maybe a bit tighter on an ahh. I think of the 2 as basically the same but one is made in the USA and slightly more classic looks. Can't go wrong either way. As someone willing to wait the 8 months for an Atlantis, I understand the desire for made in the USA and classic looks though.

[Steven Sweedler]

Patrick, not sure riding home with groceries will put the same stress on a frame as touring on rough roads day after day

On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 6:26 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with Rich, Garth and Grant, but I will add: depending on the rider's weight, it is possible to carry heavy-ish loads on a thinner-tubed frame. I regularly carry heavy grocery loads on my Road Custom, and the very best rear loader of all the many, many bikes I've owned -- loads up to 45 lb in the rear, on a stiff rack (but it weighed only 11 oz!) was an early '70s, light tubed racing bike. No kidding.

Instance 2: my recently acquired (May, 2016) "road bike for dirt" is built of road gauge, thinwall, heat treated True Temper road tubing. It's certainly more than stout enough. I'm 175 buck nekkid.

So don't necessarily let tubing gauge and diameter dictate what frame you should use for loaded touring or off road riding.

On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 9:12 AM, RichS <rshann...@gmail.com> wrote:

At least a year or so ago Grant did a lengthy Sam write-up on the Blug where he said he couldn't tell the difference between the SH and his AHH when he rode them.

Garth is right about fit. A bike that doesn't hit your sizing sweet spot can be a source of discontent. Ask me how I know!

I do have a Sam and it's a wonderfully versatile bike. I'm in the middle of the size range for my 51 and the fit is spot on. It's also a fantastic value for the money. Highly recommend it.

Best,

Richard 

  

On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 9:39:25 PM UTC-4, Paul Choi wrote:

I'm new to Rivendell bikes and to this forum. I'm considering a SH or AHH. This would be a all-around bike that used for commuting, light touring and some occasional off road riding. These bikes seem similar. 

Can you tell me the differences of these two bikes?

For those of you that have both - your feedback would be really appreciated. 

Paul in Santa Clara, CA.

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[Brian Campbell]

I have owned an AHH since 2011. I would get the AHH vs. the Sam. The AHH will do all your stated riding very well. I love the ride of mine and it replaced 9 other bikes. I don't miss them. I built mine with an emphasis on lighter weight and more roadish (per this list) style. That said, I can install a rear rack and have, in less than 5 minutes if I need it for commuting. I don't run a basket on the front because I don't like how the handling changes when any bike I have ridden has more than a pound or two.up front. 

IIRC correctly the Sam uses a slightly hevaier tubing set than the AHH. I like the lively feel of mine w/35mm tires. You will do well with either but I say you know you want the Hilsen...get it. 

[Garth]

  On the surface I may agree with you.  However, I can find no source of such an assumption.  There are endless "depends", which is another way of saying "I don't know" , nor does anyone else, there is no detailed to the core Absolute "manual of existence". 

   There is really is no substitute for real time here and now present, riding, "being being" .  I can say in all the times in my life when I am immersed in something I really enjoy , the circumstances around it just seem to all go well regardless of the details. 

[Joe Bernard]

I'm not sure it's useful to reject an opinion about riding conditions with "nobody knows" and "being being" (I don't know what that means). Most of the folks on this forum have a lot of experience with different rides on different bikes, and I would agree that grocery shopping is not the same as multi-day rough road/dirt touring.

[Justin, Oakland]

The Hilsen will be a perfect fit for you. I use my Saluki like you describe often.
So will the Hillborne.

I would find out which one would let you get your bars where you want them and the tires that you want and the price that you want.

-Justin

[Joe Bernard]

Color counts for a lot, too. I don't care for the current orange, and not much for the grey/blue a lot of them came with, either. I liked the older Porsche green, and the sage hue. I heard they're doing some black ones again soon..that's a lovely bike.

[Jonathan D.]

I've heard orange is the fastest color. I hope so because getting a Sam next week from the list. AHH is not in the cards and I have a Joe. Any advice, beyond colors, to make the Sam a "go fast" bike? This will be my faster bike with racks but not setup for kids.

[Joe Bernard]

Orange IS fastest, but I'm too slow for it ;-)
A complete Sam with dropbars is set up well as a go-fast out the door. Those large rotating wheels are the first place to look if you want to drop some weight and spin-up faster. Rich @ Riv can hook you up with something along the lines of what Mark @ Riv uses on his road bikes. Mark is the speedy one around there.

[Ron Mc]

My sense of it is Hillborne is the all-road gravel-grinder light touring bike, and Hilsen is Rivendell's version of a Rando.  

I think all Rivbikes overlap in a good way. . 

[Mark in Beacon]

Ride a lot. Fartlek.

[RichS]

My sage green Sam is plenty fast enough and cushy running Compass 38mm Loup Loup Pass tires.

Best regards,
Richard

[Paul Choi]

I would love to see some pictures of your Sam's if you guys are willing to post them. 

I rode a 51 Sam on Saturday at Silva in Campbell and really think this is what I want. It was a blue/green color. I have my heart set on a blue color or black. 

Now I just wait for a used one on the list or wait for a new one from RBW in October. I heard that they might make some in black is this shipment?

[Will]

I've seen both SH and AHH and have an Atlantis, so I get the Rivendell thing. I'd get the Sam. It's got all the bells and whistles and because Taiwan... is a lot less $$$. Not less bike, repeat... not less bike... less $$$. The lug/frame work on the SH is superb. Maybe... it's 6-8 ounces heavier. BFD. You hit 35 and you gain 1-2 lbs/year no matter what. 

Put the money to good racks/panniers (get Tubus and Ortleib) and fenders (get SKS). And don't fret about color. It's whatever. You want to define color... pick your handlebar tape that's what you look at. 

On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 8:39:25 PM UTC-5, Paul Choi wrote:

[Carla Waugh]

I have a Sam so I can only speak to it. It's a beautiful bike and I'm running copper fenders so my tires are not as wide and they are Jack Brown Blue so about 33.3 in width a Nitto front rack and a basket in front plus Sackville bags. It's my do everything bike and it does gravel and road rides well. I'm sure the AHH is outstanding but Sam would be hard to beat! The best part it's a beauty.

[Beaverton Bob]

Hi Paul,

I was in your situation last October.  I wanted an AHH, but knew about the Sam.  What solved the dilemma for me was going to Rivelo in Portland, and trying out the Sam.  One ride, and I was sold.  It is as good as everyone here says it is.  To be fair, I never tried an AHH, but now I do not want to.

Some caveats:

1.  I AM in the middle of the PBH range, for the 55cm sam, it is 82-87cm.  My PBH is 85-86cm.  

2.  I have a "road" bike that I still rarely use, an older Cannondale R400.  Would I have just ONE bike?  Maybe not, but if I had to keep just one, it would be the Sam.

My Sam is set-up as a do-it-all, with racks and fenders, a front basket, and it IS used as a daily (short distance) commuter.  However, when it is time to ride for fun on the weekends, it is still what I choose.  No worries about potholes, short gravel sections, and water puddles (because sometimes it rains in Portland).  

As for how to set it up, I will echo the sentiments here: the stock Riv setup is solid.  I changed some parts, but the drivetrain is stock.  Even the 46(!) cm bars are still there.  I have a narrow chest and my road bike has 40cm bars.  I have decided to keep the 46cm bars though, since they DO make sprinting out of the saddle much better.  The stock Kwick Tendril tires are also quite good.

No regrets at all with this purchase.  And in case you are wondering, it can go as fast as I can.  The weight is only noticeable going uphill, but worth it for the amazing ride quality.

I tried to post a picture using my phone, but couldn't.  PM me your cell number and I can definitely send you a picture.

Ride Safely,

Beaverton Bob

[Michael Cinibulk]

I have a first gen canti Sam 60 cm single TT in Metallic green with gold decals. While it's a great loaded tourer it's a bit heavy for commuting and general unloaded riding. If the extra $$ is not an issue I would go with an AHH to avoid the overkill double TT and get the slightly lighter tube set. Also, regarding lighter wheels, here is some data. I just weighed my wheels without cassettes this weekend since I was overhauling my hubs. 9 spd XT hubs with A719 rims are 2350 g a set. My 9 spd Campy Veloce hubs with Open Pro rims on my Waterford 1250 are 1900 g a set. So a delta of 1 lb. I expected it to be more.

Mike C
Bellbrook OH

[R Shannon]

Paul, here's a pic of my Sam.

Best,

Richard

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[blakcloud]

Paul, I can only talk about my Sam and I have not been disappointed in the ride of the bike at all. Mine has Albatross bars and I like the setup for most of the riding I do. It feels solid when I ride it which instills a sense of confidence. 

The only downside to this bike is the sloping top tube, I am just not a fan. Never have been, never will be. I have no intentions of selling this bike because I see it as my work horse bike. It does what I want it to do and that is more than I can ask for.

You asked for photos. Go here and spend hours enjoying Sam Hillbornes. https://www.flickr.com/groups/hillborne/

[lum gim fong]

https://flic.kr/p/jTpszH

https://flickr.com/photos/70237737@N00/sets/72157633085407086

[lum gim fong]

https://www.flickr.com/gp/70237737@N00/FL1pRc

https://flic.kr/p/FRbnBN

[Paul Choi]

Thank you for the awesome pictures. I think there is a black Sam coming my way in October :)

On Tuesday, August 15, 2017 at 11:37:02 PM UTC-7, lum gim fong wrote:

https://www.flickr.com/gp/70237737@N00/FL1pRc

https://flic.kr/p/FRbnBN

[Dave Johnston]

For an "all-around bike that used for commuting, light touring and some occasional off road riding" I think it is also is worth considering the Atlantis. I think the Atlantis tubing is actually lighter than the Sam Hill, but they may have made changes since the early ones, so I'm not sure where it stands now. The Atlantis can fit fatter tires than either the SH or AHH, and that makes it more suitable for the described purpose. Used Atlanti seem to come up for sale pretty often since they have been in production for so long.

Another thing to consider is the weight of the rider plus gear. For big loads the SH or Atlantis would be more appropriate and for lightweight loads the AHH might be more suitable.

-Dave J

[Ash [who works to bike]]

Hey Paul,

Since you are only an hour away from Riv HQ, it is definitely worth driving up and test-riding.  

While you are there, be sure to ride an Appaloosa as well :)   When I visited Riv the first time, I rode it just out of curiosity and I ended up going with it instead of the bike I was there to learn about  (I liked it so much I pre-ordered a 2017 frame and waited for 4 months).

Btw, if your size is 51cm and interested in trying out Appaloosa, I'm not too far from you.  PM me and come by sometime during the weekend.

Ash

[R Shannon]

Paul,

Yes, do go to RivHQ and do some test rides. As others have noted, the overlap among the bikes is significant enough that the opportunity to ride the bikes will make your decision easier.

My Sam and Atlantis feel like they weigh about the same (both set up with racks and baskets).

There are some small differences in handling. Both delightful rides though. You may prefer one over the other so make that trip to Walnut Creek!

Best of luck and enjoy the ride(s),

Richard

Sent from my iPhone

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[John G.]

I could be wrong, but I thought the main tubing difference between the Atlantis and Homer was that the Atlantis had a beefier fork. My 61cm Atlantis rides light for my 200 lb body.

[Ann L]

 I concur that you should make the jaunt to RBW and do test rides.  First, it would be awesome, well worth the trip to see the shop in person, and actually talk the people who will be building your bike.  Second, and more importantly, riding and getting a sense of what works best for you.  I had to order my bikes blind due to geographic location.  I'm very pleased with them but may have decided differently if I had the opportunity to do some test rides.

That said, I can see where your heart is leaning.  The black tuxedo Sam's are sharp and I don't blame holding out for one.

[tc]

The Sam is a really super bike.  Bought one with albatross bars, sks fenders, mark's rack.  My (tall) wife rode it and loved it, so she has that Sam now.  

Then I got another one with the noodle drop bar, which is what I shoulda gotten in the first place.  Now we each have what we love.  

This is a quality bike that runs smooth and 'just fits'.  I could actually ride a 60, but the 58 is fine (speaking to the comment about being on the line between sizes).  Seat and bar adjustments can go a long way to dialing in the fit if you're torn between sizes.

It would be amazing to see how an AHH would fit me so much better, and make me grin so much more, so as to justify the significant price difference.  We hope to visit RBW in the Fall, and you can bet I'll try to ride an AHH to compare and see what all the fuss is about :)

tc

[Evan E.]

Paul:  Your future black Sam sounds like a good call, but I, too, think that some Walnut Creek test rides will help you decide. (Here's a picture of my blue Sam.)

[Joe Bernard]

Check the Web Specials page pronto. They cut some prices temporarily to clear out a room that has a water leak (it didn't get the bikes).

[Ron Mc]

ok, I got confused by this one - Atlantis is the full-load touring flagship - I thought we were talking about similarities and differences of Sam and Homer.  

[John G.]

Sorry, Ron. I was replying to a poster who said OP should also check out the Atlantis. Didn't mean to hijack the thread.

[Joel]

Old thread, I wonder if now since both are MIT and both now have the same TT slope if the opinions expressed hold.  Also I don’t know if the tubing is now the same.  

[Dorothy C]

Different brake styles would be the main thing, now that Sams are V brake 

[R Shannon]

Joel,

I’ve not verified this with the Riv folks but the weight difference between the two seems like it would be in the tubing. My Homer and Sam have identical setups but Homer is two pounds lighter (says a bathroom scale). It also feels a touch lighter just lifting it and ditto for the ride.

From the last Riv catalog:

“Sam is a hair stouter, so we give it more burly points than Homer, but the Sam and Homer are 95 percent functional clones. . .”

Also this: “If you want speed on the road with versatility to tour or ride dirt now and then, the A. Homer Hilsen is ideal.”

Hope this info helps with your decision. Pics or any other questions feel free to ask.

Best,

Rich in ATL

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 3, 2020, at 11:17 AM, Dorothy C <doroth...@gmail.com> wrote:

Different brake styles would be the main thing, now that Sams are V brake 

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[Erik Wright]

A couple notes after watching Russ's review at Path Less Pedaled, too:

1. He notes 45.5cm chainstays. He rides the 650b version, which (according to this geometry chart) could mean that the geo of the new batch of Sams might not be much of a diversion from the last batch. 700c has 46.5cm chainstays.
1. ****Unless, of course, he reviewed a Sam from the last batch that Riv still had in stock.
2. According to that same geo chart, A. Homer Hilsen has 47.5cm chainstays in the 650b sizes, and up to 49cm and 53cm in the big ol' sizes.

Therefore, chainstay length + brake choice + tubing(???) might make the two bikes a smidge more different than each other. Basically going from 95% the same bike to 90% the same bike.

That's the nerdiest I've gotten about bikes in a while.

Erik, Philly

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[Joel]

Thanks Erik, I looked at the geometry charts as well. I was also given some good info regarding the 2 in standover height, both 51cm with 38cm tires. 

[Roberta]

I just replied to Joel's other thread and I think this is exactly what I was feeling between the two bikes.   Love the lively ride of the AHH.

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 11:39:52 AM UTC-4, RichS wrote:

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[Joel Stern]

Dorothy, I did see that, I could take almost every part from the Bleriot and use them on the Homer but on the Sam I would need new brakes.  Not a big deal but I do like those side pulls. 

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[Joel Stern]

Rich, speed is not important, I want the most stable and comfortable ride with a bike that fits the best.  You have given me great info, thanks. Ride report on the Atlantis should be later today.  

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[Jason Fuller]

I do sometimes wonder if I shouldn't have went with the Homer for the lighter tubing, but the Sam is by no means sluggish or heavy feeling for having the stouter tubes of the two. I have mine built up pretty lightweight (for what it is), it's around 27 lbs with accessories but no bags. I came off a very light tubing bike, the Soma Grand Rando, and the Hillborne doesn't feel much slower to be honest, if at all!  It's definitely smoother, which is surprising given the stronger tubing. I think the geo just puts me in the perfect place between the wheels. 

I do long distance road rides on the Hillborne and while it might do me well to have a bit of a lighter tubed bike in those cases, it's really nice to be able to also strap a bunch of weight to the same bike (or ride rough roads and trails) without worry!  I do these rides with people on full road bikes sometimes and I don't feel the bike holds me back more than maybe 3%.  

[Joel Stern]

I like the Sam H a lot, if I do decide to sell the Bleriot I would want a Sam because from all I have gathered it would be a great fit in 51cm for me.  The Homer May be a tad taller from I information I have gathered from a forum member.  Also, nice to have one with a shorter chainstays as well.  

All great bikes though.  

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 5:51 PM Jason Fuller <jtf.f...@gmail.com> wrote:

I do sometimes wonder if I shouldn't have went with the Homer for the lighter tubing, but the Sam is by no means sluggish or heavy feeling for having the stouter tubes of the two. I have mine built up pretty lightweight (for what it is), it's around 27 lbs with accessories but no bags. I came off a very light tubing bike, the Soma Grand Rando, and the Hillborne doesn't feel much slower to be honest, if at all!  It's definitely smoother, which is surprising given the stronger tubing. I think the geo just puts me in the perfect place between the wheels. 

I do long distance road rides on the Hillborne and while it might do me well to have a bit of a lighter tubed bike in those cases, it's really nice to be able to also strap a bunch of weight to the same bike (or ride rough roads and trails) without worry!  I do these rides with people on full road bikes sometimes and I don't feel the bike holds me back more than maybe 3%.  

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[Nathan Mattia]

My 51cm Sidepull Samwise is PERFECT for my 80 PBH and 5’9” height, especially when set up with Albatross bars.  Best fitting bike I’ve ever had.

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 7:01:28 PM UTC-5, Joel wrote:

I like the Sam H a lot, if I do decide to sell the Bleriot I would want a Sam because from all I have gathered it would be a great fit in 51cm for me.  The Homer May be a tad taller from I information I have gathered from a forum member.  Also, nice to have one with a shorter chainstays as well.  

All great bikes though.  

On Thu, Sep 3, 2020 at 5:51 PM Jason Fuller <jtf....@gmail.com> wrote:

I do sometimes wonder if I shouldn't have went with the Homer for the lighter tubing, but the Sam is by no means sluggish or heavy feeling for having the stouter tubes of the two. I have mine built up pretty lightweight (for what it is), it's around 27 lbs with accessories but no bags. I came off a very light tubing bike, the Soma Grand Rando, and the Hillborne doesn't feel much slower to be honest, if at all!  It's definitely smoother, which is surprising given the stronger tubing. I think the geo just puts me in the perfect place between the wheels. 

I do long distance road rides on the Hillborne and while it might do me well to have a bit of a lighter tubed bike in those cases, it's really nice to be able to also strap a bunch of weight to the same bike (or ride rough roads and trails) without worry!  I do these rides with people on full road bikes sometimes and I don't feel the bike holds me back more than maybe 3%.  

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[Joel]

The new ones are canti’s I think? Did Riv make other changes? 

[Patrick Moore]

The original Sams had cantilever brakes; why did Rivendell switch to calipers? It seems to me that the Sam is the sort of bike -- allroad or country bike -- that obviously needs cantilevers (or V brakes; heck, for that matter discs, if Rivendell used discs; just not calipers) for tire and fender clearance.

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 3:37 PM Joel <jrst...@gmail.com> wrote:

The new ones are canti’s I think? Did Riv make other changes? 

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Joel Stern]

The current ones use cantilevers, the Hoper uses dude pulls. 

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[Joel Stern]

Typo, Homer.  Damn iPad.  

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 7:12 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Nathan F]

This change baffled me too, when I was buying my 2018 (in 2019, the last one Rivelo had) it was a huge deal for me. Glad to see another run of them, in my eyes the Hillborne is the last holdout of the more "traditional" Riv designs that ended a few years ago.

[ted]

New newer newest ...

Standard oversised ...

normal short long ...

Traditional ...

All relative terms whose meanings morph and evolve and the use of which may or may not make sense to one depending on how long you've been paying attention.

From where I sit the waterford AHH and atlantis were the last of the more "traditional" Riv designs, the break being 6 deg top tubes and more limited sizing.

With the longer wheelbase MIT models its another leap from "traditional".

Maybe it's because I grew up before mountain bikes, but to my eye side/center pull brakes are traditional while cantilevers (not to mention V brakes) are new fangled. Discs new fangleder yet.

But I think RBW would say they aren't about tradition but about practical bikes and what works.

There were side pull Roms and canti-Roms, there were side pull Salukis and canti Salukis, there've been canti Sams and side pull Sams, the SOs were going to be side pull but the builder used the wrong rear brake bridge so they ended up canti. Prior to their recent embrace of V brakes (and the slow march towards ever bigger and bigger tires) RBW seemed quite agnostic wrt the whole canti vs side/center pull thing, and they went back and forth quite a bit.

I'm continually amazed at how strongly many folks feel about various types of brakes. In my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience they all can work fine. That said, I find side/center pull calipers the easiest and least fidly to set up. If they (side/center pull) yield sufficient clearance I don't see a strong argument against them.

I'm glad you got the bike you want, I'm also glad my wife's Sam has dual pivot brakes.

[Jason Fuller]

From an engineering perspective, what I appreciate about side-pull brakes is that all the clamping forces are contained within the brake itself, ie it does not exert any bending force on the fork/frame like a canti or v-brake does. Even the braking force goes to the crown of the fork rather than the blades, so the fork blades can focus on other things. That said, the tire clearance limitation is a problem if you like anything bigger than a 42c. 

Reminds me - James told me via email that the Charlie H Gallop is going to be side-pull rather than v-brake like the prototypes

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[Joe Bernard]

How the canti-Sam became a sidepull-Sam early on involves a guess on my part based on more arcane Riv knowledge than I should probably admit to harboring:

Originally the Sam showed up as a canti MIT version of the Toyo/Waterford Saluki/Homer caliper bike. I believe the caliper Ram was still around at this time, too, so Riv was all full up on caliper road bikes. Later the Ram went away and Homer kept getting more expensive so Sam morphed into the caliper road/country "standard" Rivbike. Now things are all different and I won't try to figure out why it's canti again, I've been arcane enough!

Joe "he knows too much, yet is so little help" Bernard 

[Eric Daume]

And for me, a side pull CHG kills it. Those long reach sidepulls are weak and flexy. No thanks.

Eric

V brake fan

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[ted]

I'll guess the Sam has gone back to being canti because the Homer is now MIT also. Now costs are similar (same?), both have 6 deg top tubes, etc. May as well make the brakes different.

I think choosing between a new Sam or Homer based on brake style preference would make a lot of sense.

Of course I also think choosing based on preferred color, head badge, or name would make a lot of sense too.

[Ben Mihovk]

What I really like about Rivendell is that they do have a handful of frames that will work for you no matter what...and that there are little nuanced differences between Sam/Homer, Atlantis/Joe, etc... The differences in sizing between the two helps cover all pbh sizes...I'm a touch over 93cm, so a Homer (which I was planning on getting until recently) is tough because I'd have more clearance than I need on a 61.5 , but might not have enough clearance on a 64. The Sam's most recent run had a 62cm frame that would be a perfect fit for me. Had I not just ordered an Atlantis the Tuesday before they released the garage sale frames, I would have snagged that 62cm orange Sam and would have got to keep using sidepull brakes. 

I agree that having Sam and Homer offer different braking makes sense...the Homer is less burly (according to Rivendell's catalog) so it makes sense that it takes the more traditional roadie brakes. 

[Sean B.]

Why do you think the chainstays on the Hillborne are shorter than the AHH? With the AHH being more of a roadish bike, I would imagine it would be opposite.

[Joel Stern]

Not sure but happy they are.  Very happy with the Sam.  

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[Joe Bernard]

"Sam shorter than Homer"

My guess is it's an older design they've decided to leave alone for buyers wary of the super-long stays of the newer models. 

[Bones]

In an email back in early September, Will mentioned that they have lengthened the chainstays on the newest Sams. The 60cm now has 48.5cm chainstays... which is pretty close to the 61.5 Homer (49cm). Tubing, tire clearance and brake type seem to be what sets them apart.

Bones

[tom coppedge]

Slightly longer chain stays, not much, since it now takes a larger tire compared to sidepull version — hooray. Geometry is essentially same otherwise I believe. I have a 62 double TT, wife has a 58, both sidepulls.  The newer 60 canti is of so close geometrically to the 62 sidepull. 

Tom

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[Joel Stern]

I know the 51cm stayed the same, not sure where the longer ones started.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 6:46 PM Bones <ekstr...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[aeroperf]

55 Sam 700c (2015), 51 Homer 650b (2019).

Almost identical length.  I prefer the ride of the Sam.