RH double: spindle length?

[J-D Bamford]

For a Rene Herse double crank (46-30) on a trad’ish randonneur (130mm rear spacing, 700x32mm tire clearance + fenders, straight chainstays not curved)… what actual BB spindle lengths have people had success with? I’m aware of the RH charts… one chart suggests 110mm and the other chart suggests 107mm - so I’m more curious about actual experience ‘from the field’.

Origin of my inquiry… poor FD shifts (FSA/IRD “compact double”, I’ve tried them both)… either it throws my chain beyond the big ring and onto the crank arm… or I limit its travel and it won’t shift big at all. The narrow Q on the RH crank arm minimizes any experimentation with FD cage angle. And my cage sits just a mm or two above the big ring, akin to Shimano’s alignment sticker. So now I’m wondering if my 113mm spindle puts the FD cage too far out in its swing. I could easily fit a 110mm spindle, and probably 107mm based on eyeballing clearance to the chainstays. Maybe shorter spindles would improve FD throw/alignment? Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this wandering missive. 

[J-D Bamford]

Further context… I’ll be moving my drivetrain to a new 2024 “lugged Roadini” when those frames ship. Instead of reusing my 113mm BB, I can go with Riv’s default 110mm or I could source a 107mm and begin experimenting first with that (and BB shims). I dunno.

[Bill Lindsay]

On my Roadeo I use a Titanium White Industries 108mm with a 46/30 Rene Herse 9-12 speed crankset.  I use a Dura Ace 7700 front Der

On my Norther Lyon I use the fancy high end IRD/Sugino ball and cup BB with a 107mm spindle and an older Rene Herse 44/28 crankset.  I use a CX70 front derailleur

On my custom Falconer with a 120mm OLD in back I use a Phil Wood 103mm BB with a Rene Herse 9-12 speed crankset and 42/26 rings with a CX70 front Der. 

All three of these bikes have Dura Ace 7700 down tube shifters.   

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[ascpgh]

Bill L. brings up a good point at the end of his bikes' BB and crankset descriptions; the FD's shifter. 

Many ills of FDs used outside manufacturer's recommended specs (T Max, Range) and capacities of integrated shifters are eliminated by manual levers, DT or bar ends. Makers don't want you to mix or deviate from installation specs for a number of reasons that fly in the face of BOBs doing BOB things to and on their bikes. 

I am using RH 46/30 cranks, 130mm rear hub with the 116mm SKF BB. With fenders over the 650B x 42 tires I had to dimple the lower DS end of the rear fender to avoid interference with the chain on the largest cog and inner chainring. I use a SunTour Superbe Pro (flat sides) FD with Shimano bar end shifters. I don't have overshifts or fail-to-shifts on this setup, no chain rub on the steep grind climbs either.

This build was what I wanted, a result of my evolved experience and riding, not by any Shimano, SRAM or Campagnolo dictates. They don't have solutions for riders like us.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[ascpgh]

...or RBWs.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[John S]

I use a 113 mm IRD cup and cone BB with the RH 48-33 double on my Hilsen (135 mm rear spacing), and shifting is great with a Campy Chorus FD (12-speed).

[maxcr]

I use a 107 SKF on my Crust LB with RH 48-33. It has 130mm rear spacing. FD is Shimano Dura Ace and shifters are downtube Dura Ace 7700.

Max

[J-D Bamford]

Hmmm... three 107-108 spindle votes on 130mm rear spacing. If I changed from 113 to 107, assuming symmetric, brings the crank 3mm closer to the FD. Perhaps it'll shift better if the FD isn't so far out on its swing (total conjecture on my part) - might as well give it a go.

Yes, DA 10sp barcons.

Sounds like we're all using similar FDs... straight sided, 16t capacity... I'm not inclined to buy another variant (DA7700, Chorus, Superbe Pro, Microshift) until I try varying the spindle length first.

Thanks much everyone!

[Jason Fuller]

I believe I use a 109/110 on my Hillborne with the RH cranks in 42-26 configuration, I would have to go longer if I ran larger rings than that because the 26 is about 1mm from the chainstay - but of course the Hillborne is a bit thicker in this region than more roadish bikes. You might find with the Roadini's ample clearance and similar CS length that 110 is as short as you'll be able to go. 

[Austin L]

I use a 103mm ird with 42-26, sort of a 1x plus bailout setup. Works well, but the front shifting is somewhat dependent on where on the cassette the chain is. I like the low q and quasi 1x chainline.

Austin

[J-D Bamford]

Just realizing my Gen1 RH crank is only ideal for 5-9 speed, with 10 speed only recommended with Ultegra chain (but apparently still not optimum). Perhaps part of throwing my chain is also trying to 10sp on Gen1 with what's probably a SRAM chain or Shimano cheaper than Ult.

[Will Boericke]

Only difference between 5-9 and higher speeds is space between the rings.  I use many cranks with higher "speed" drivetrains with no ill effects.  Setting up a FD is non-trivial.  I'd recommend removing it entirely and reinstalling from scratch using Park Tools instructions.

Will

[Arvi]

I've successfully used a 110mm IRD QB-95 and 107mm Omni Racer Ti. The 107 Omni narrows the chainline a little, so  I can better use the big ring across the whole cassette, but at the expense of the small/small combo working just as well. That's plus the lower Q equals a good tradeoff to me, but I would go with the 110 if you want something more neutral

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

I suggest looking at the asymmetry of the IRD BBs, which AFAIK made by Tange.   For example, a Tange 107mm, 109mm, and 111mm BB hall have the same distance from the center of the BB to the drive side, 54.5mm.   Their asymmetries vary, but all 3 will place the drive side of the crank in the same location.   A 107 has a 4mm lower Q than a 111.   SKF and VO BBs are symmetric so you have apple to apple comparison.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[J-D Bamford]

Regarding the BB - thanks @arvi for the input. I think I’ll grab an Omni Racer Ti maybe in 107.5, as you said to get the big ring better positioned across the easier cassette gears which is definitely my pref. The Ti model isn’t that pricey compared to a lot of boutique BBs costing more. And the Ti is 100g (almost a quarter pound) lighter than the BB that Riv includes with their frames (I just weighed a 68x110 and it’s 265g from Riv).

Regarding the front der - my normal setup steps are like those mentioned by Park Tools. The RH crank arm is close enough to the large chainring that there’s very little margin for angular adjustments (but I’ve tried). I’ll just go with narrower BB and an Ultegra chain and see what diff they make. Easiest done in coming weeks when the new Roadini arrives for buildup!

[Arvi Sreenivasan]

If anyone is wondering about durability of the Omni Ti, it has worked great for me. I did a full super rando series (including a fair amount of rain) and PBP on it last year. I have them on two bikes now.

[J-D Bamford]

Pics of RH double crank (9-10 speed, gen 1) on a new lugged Roadini frame with Riv-installed BB. Fairly snugged, but not torque wrenched, just ballpark eyeball setup to ascertain clearances. Lens focal length is 72mm full frame equivalent.

At first, I was surprised by the oodles of clearance, then was more surprised that they installed a 114mm(ish, one-handed measurement) BB when their cranks are mainly described as taking a 110, and other frames are described as 110-for-double as well. Perhaps when frames arrive at Riv, there’s a rush to get frame-only ordered shipped and thus some variability in what’s put on them. This frame came with the installed 114 BB and an installed headset. My Roaduno just a couple months ago came with uninstalled 110mm BB and headset (which was no big deal, but Tange’s online threaded headset installation guide doesn’t even show all the parts, LOL).

Anyway, I’m emboldened to order a 108mm BB to really tighten up the Q-factor as well as align the big ring to favor big-big chaining as discussed above (and small-small chainline is not my concern). Perhaps these pics will help others in component selection / sizing.

[J-D Bamford]

For anyone still reading, I learned from Roman at Riv that they now have 113mm BBs installed by their Taiwanese framebuilder, along with the headsets. Althought their cranks (and other brands) largely spec 110mm BB spindle for a double, Riv's heavily pushing "skeleton key" front derailleurs that require a 113mm BB spindle. So keep this in mind if you're ordering a frame-only. I'll be ordering a 108mm BB to swap in. Minor inconvenience, minor delay in my planned build schedule this month.

I'll also be posting this in a main topic here in the group.