Atlas tubeless?

[Jay Lonner]

My Big Bens are nearing end of life and I’m curious about setting up my Hunq tubeless. But I have Atlas rims, which Velocity says is a no-go. However if you scroll through the comments on this article, John Watson from the Radavist says they set up nicely:

https://theradavist.com/rivendell-hunqapillar-review/

So why would I want to do this? Mostly to get experience working with tubeless setups. My full-squish MTB and gravel/bikepacking rig are tubeless, and if/when I encounter issues with either of them (esp. if I’m in a remote locale) I’d like to have some hands-on knowledge with troubleshooting tubeless systems. I already have an air compressor, so basically for the cost of some tape and sealant I’d be good to go.

Anybody have experience with making non-tubeless rims play nicely tubeless? Tips or tricks to share? Or is it just a bad idea, and should I resign myself to getting some new wheels built with Cliffhangers? I’d hate to have the Hunq out of commission that long, but if I timed it to coincide with out-of-town travel it probably wouldn’t be that big a deal.

One last question — Cliffhangers are wider than Atlases by about 4.6 mm. How would that affect fender clearance? My intuition is that wider rims should result in a flatter tire arc, and potentially make it possible to go slightly wider if I wanted to. I have 50s now, and would like to be able to move up to 55s or even 60s.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

[jeffbog...@hotmail.com]

Hi Jay, I'm looking for an Atlas wheelset if you decide to sell. PM sent.

[Ted W]

I can only speak antidotally about the tubeless rims but I do have experience with the Cliffhanger rims and fender clearance.

You’re correct about the rim width. For reference, I have 29x2.22 SimWorks Super Yummy tires, run tubeless, w/ Cliffhanger wheels on my Appaloosa. They should measure around 55mm if they were true to size but I measure mine at about 60mm. So, I’d suggest adding about 5mm to the advertised tire size and start there when deciding if a tire combo on Cliffhangers will fit a given frame.

Now, with the other question. I’ve personally never done run non-tubeless tires as tubeless but I know people who have and have had no issues. My understanding from talking to them is that you need the tubeless rim tape to seal the spokes and you need tires that can seat their bead properly, and tightly, on the wheel. The latter is where the main difference is, unless you’re talking hooked vs. hookless beads, between wheels rated for tubeless and those not. You’ll usually have more of a lip near the rim edge (think inside the wheel, the space between the rim tape and the braking surface) that the tire with pop up on to and seal against. If the tire doesn’t have enough of a lip there, the bead won’t seat well. I’ve heard of people who’ve used duct-tape to build the inside of the rim up, but I’m not sure I’d trust that… but it works for them.

Ted

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Ted Wood < ted.l...@gmail.com >

[Jamie W]

I remember when Stan's was first coming out/gaining popularity the rep came by the shop and set up a whole bunch of old rims tubeless. These were just any old rims kicking around the back. As mentioned the tape prevents air loss through the spoke drilling. Modern rims and tires have a much better or secure fit out the box, but again, this can be fudged with additional tape to build the "shelf". People have great luck with Gorilla tape as a cheaper alternative. I think it's good to play around with the system to help demystify the workings. Worse case it isn't for you on you need to clean a bit of tape glue. 

As someone without an air compressor, a helpful trick I use is to seat the majority of the tire on the rim before inflating. You are essentially using a tire lever to pretend to pull the tire out of the rim while using your thumb behind it to prevent it from actually popping off, therefore pulling the bead into the shelf or hook. Say the valve is at 12 o'clock, start at maybe 2 and go clockwise until at least 2/3rds of the tire is seated. The 1/3rd of the tire near the valve will be "loose" and sitting in the channel of the rim while the rest of the tire be fully set in the rim hook. I've had luck setting up tubeless with a hand pump using this method. 

I'm guessing you aren't using the hunk for bike park riding or aggressive low psi road ride descending. It should be fine for most riding or at least until new rims arrive. 

Buuuut I'm giving advice over the internet, so I'll add; maybe or who knows?? 

[Ted W]

Here is a link to the video that helped me understand the floor pump method of seating a tubeless bead that Jamie described (quite well, I might add). Jump to the 2:50 mark for the relevant bits:

https://youtu.be/tE3h4nmDdO

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[Patrick Moore]

My experience with non-tubeless tires and rims set up tubeless (non-tubeless 1.35" Kojaks on non-tubeless Sun M14A rims, tubeless Furious Freds on non-tubeless SnoCat SL rims, tubeless WTB Rangers on non-tubeless Alex OEM rims, Monocog) is that your chances of success with non-standard tubeless setups increases in inverse proportion to the tire pressure. I have more experience with tubeless tires on tubeless rims.

With a tubeless tire on a tubeless rim, the tight and close-tolerance bead fits snugly on the tubeless rim's internal shoulders, so much so that some such tubeless tire/rims setups hold air even without sealants: ultralight 60 mm Big One on Velocity Blunt SS's.

With a non-tubeless tire you lack the tight, high-precision beads; with a non-tubeless rim you lack the internal shoulders.

You can compensate for the first and the second with lots of tape, but (again, IME) you are taking a chance that layers of tape make up for sloppy beads and absence of shoulders.

In my concrete experience: Kojaks on M14As: the only thing holding the beads to the rims was air pressure. Lose air pressure and your tires separate from the rims. 50 to 60 psi. I rode this setup for ~200 miles and then anxiety made me stop. Perhaps after several times this mileage the sealant gunk around the beads would have built up to form a airtight barrier so that a drop in pressure did not mean separate of bead and rim, but I did not wait around to find out.

F Freds on SnoCat SLs: tighter beads and lots of tape instead of internal rim shoulders. <25 psi. It worked fine from the first miles and I daresay that with sealant buildup it would have been double secure, at <25 psi.

Tubeless 3" WTB Rangers on OEM 24 mm OW non-tubeless rims, ~13 psi: with sufficient tape and sealant gunk buildup: so far, so good. I can let out all the air and the beads stay stuck to the rims -- in the garage. Out in the desert? I carry a tube; I carry this tube less for big holes that sealant won't seal than for breakaway beads when the air empties from the tubes. This has been the best of the 3 non-standard tubeless setups using 1 or both non-tubeless parts. 

In summary:  Low pressure, plenty of tape, lots of OS Regular at first (to dry and gunk up the bead/rimwall junction), then OS Endurance to prevent huge, heavy slabs of dried sealant inside the tire: OS Endurance tends to dry in a fine film that eventually seems to create an internal casing seal against thorn punctures even after it has dried out.

[Patrick Moore]

David: This method of building up the center of the rim to push the beads against the rim walls seems like an excellent way to avoid that dreaded bead separation with air loss; my great fear with "non-tubeless tubeless setups" has been deflating 20 miles from home, breaking the OS barrier and finding that my minipump won't push the beads back into place. Thanks for sharing.

On Mon, Aug 7, 2023 at 7:37 PM David Baldi <davidvic...@gmail.com> wrote:

...  in the absence of a good shoulder you can build up the center of the well with Gorilla tape. I prefer starting with two layers of tubeless tape to get the seal, and then gradually building up the center with a narrower strip of Gorilla tape until, with the tire mounted, the bead is super tight even in the well. Which also means it sucks getting it over the rim in the first place, and that you'll probably need to do it a few times until you nail it. By using a thinner width for the gorilla tape, you create, if not a shoulder, at least something of a lip to keep the beat from going back to center in the case of a flat. Though IME the orange seal connection the forms at the bead has always been enough to keep it in place. 

[Jay Lonner]

So I want to be sure I’m understanding what’s being conveyed here. Attached find a screenshot from the Velocity website showing cross sections of various rims they sell. Let’s confine ourselves to comparing the Atlas to the Cliffhanger.

Is it the flat “shoulders” of the Cliffhanger that make a difference here? I can see how the concave shape of the Atlas would allow the tire bead to slide toward the midline. Is the point of adding extra layers of tape to the middle of the rim surface to create a physical backstop to prevent or limit the degree of slippage, and perhaps secondarily to create additional surface area for sealant to adhere to?

Factoring in the weight of extra tape and sealant, it sounds like there could be a performance penalty in terms of adding rotational mass to the wheel, compared to using an ultralight tube. You wouldn’t get the other benefits of a tubeless setup (which I understand to be avoiding pinch flats and guarding against goatheads and other road hazards) but for type of riding I do on this bike those risks are negligible. My Hunq is already a beast of a commuter/utility bike and I’d hate to weigh it down further.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

Sent from my Atari 400

On Aug 8, 2023, at 10:01 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:



David: This method of building up the center of the rim to push the beads against the rim walls seems like an excellent way to avoid that dreaded bead separation with air loss; my great fear with "non-tubeless tubeless setups" has been deflating 20 miles from home, breaking the OS barrier and finding that my minipump won't push the beads back into place. Thanks for sharing.

On Mon, Aug 7, 2023 at 7:37 PM David Baldi <davidvic...@gmail.com> wrote:

...  in the absence of a good shoulder you can build up the center of the well with Gorilla tape. I prefer starting with two layers of tubeless tape to get the seal, and then gradually building up the center with a narrower strip of Gorilla tape until, with the tire mounted, the bead is super tight even in the well. Which also means it sucks getting it over the rim in the first place, and that you'll probably need to do it a few times until you nail it. By using a thinner width for the gorilla tape, you create, if not a shoulder, at least something of a lip to keep the beat from going back to center in the case of a flat. Though IME the orange seal connection the forms at the bead has always been enough to keep it in place. 

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[Patrick Moore]

Jay: If you live in a paradise without goatheads and ride more-or-less road tires (up to, say, 42 mm) on pavement, then based on my experience I'd say give tubeless and sealant a miss. Sealant is messy, adds cost, adds weight, clogs valves, and -- tho' this happens only when you get punctures -- sprays your fenders or frame with stuff that dries and requires either much work or acetone to remove.

Even with sealants, though, sometimes tubes are fine: 28 mm/55 psi Elk Passes and 42 mm/35 psi Naches Passes work very, very well with OS regular formula against goatheads.

Tubeless: IMO, the value is with 50 mm + tires at =/< 25 psi. Much of the weight penalty is removed by leaving off the 200 or 250 gram tube. OTOH, you need plugs for the very rare bigger holes that the sealant alone won't seal.

On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 11:36 AM Jay Lonner <jay.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

... Factoring in the weight of extra tape and sealant, it sounds like there could be a performance penalty in terms of adding rotational mass to the wheel, compared to using an ultralight tube. You wouldn’t get the other benefits of a tubeless setup (which I understand to be avoiding pinch flats and guarding against goatheads and other road hazards) but for type of riding I do on this bike those risks are negligible. My Hunq is already a beast of a commuter/utility bike and I’d hate to weigh it down further.