Friction 9 V 10 speed

[Bernard Duhon]

I have been friction  shifting my 10 speed campy set up. 11-26 X 44-28 Crank is Sugino.

Was not happy with performance , ghosts shifts up when spinning & down when stomping the pedals. 

Switched up to a 34-11 Shimano

Nothing else changed

Seems to be working really well.

 

Previous threads and literature suggests that the closer the cogs in 10 & 11 speeds makes for better friction shifting.

 

What has been your experience? 

 

[DavidP]

My road bike is friction 2x10 with Riv Silver 2s on barend pods, Campy Veloce FD, Sugino 48/34 crank, Ultegra 11-30 cassette, and Ultegra 10 speed chain. Wonderful shifting. After initial setup I had some occasional slipping on the right shifter, requiring some snugging of the D-ring bolt by hand, but it's been holding fine for a while now.

I have other friction shifted bikes ranging from 7 speeds to 9 speeds in back and while they all work well shifting is easier on the bikes with more cogs.

-Dave

[John Dewey]

A tip o’ the hat to you good folks. I ride this beautiful mid-80s Waterford Paramount race bike equipped with 7-speed freewheel. Until recently all friction. But I often ride with the carbons, because they’re everywhere. And the rapid shifting required by the paceline just wasn’t ideal. So I installed click levers and am truly much happier. They just work seamlessly without fuss…and no trimming required. Not inclined to go back and I’m fine with that. 

Jock

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/BN6PR17MB32192526C45695E679B83DBFCD082%40BN6PR17MB3219.namprd17.prod.outlook.com.

[John Dewey]

Oops, chopped off the image. 

Jock

[exliontamer]

I started friction shifting on 8 speed years ago and may have just got used to it so it's really hard to say. Totally get the reasoning of not being able to miss a gear when you have 10-11 in the back but I pretty much run between 6-9 with my friction bikes and never have any issues. When pedaling hard, I've had ghost shifting on every Riv/Dia Compe Shifter I've had unless they're tightened to the point of negating the feel. Very much prefer the older Suntour ratcheting which just feel more solid/sure and the Shimanos that are switchable. 

[Patrick Moore]

+ 1 for the old Suntours. 

OTOH, I got wonderful friction shifting with gen-1 Silvers, a Microshift road rear derailleur, and a home-brew 9-speed cogset (used 9 sp spacers but cogs were probably mix of 9, 8, 7, and possibly Uniglde). So a great deal depends on the match between shifter and derailleur. In fact, I think that this shifter/derailleur combination may have been an ideal pairing given the cog mismatches, tho' the Barcon + DA 7402 combo today (shifting 10) is as good if not even better, but now using proper 10 sp cogs and an 11 sp chain, and I do prefer the action, the absence of slipping, and the durability (broke 2 Silvers when bike fell over) of the Barcons.

OTOH again, I recall back about 2000 doing some mountain bike day tours around Aspen and using the current mid-level Shimano indexed trigger shifting of the time, both front and rear. I remember being very glad at how well it all worked -- shove, snick, new gear -- when oxygen deprived climbing a steep hill at 13K feet. And certainly the 7 speed indexed dt rear shifting on my Sante equipped Falcon was absolutely flawless.

On Mon, Apr 15, 2024 at 11:59 PM exliontamer <rollu...@gmail.com> wrote:

... When pedaling hard, I've had ghost shifting on every Riv/Dia Compe Shifter I've had unless they're tightened to the point of negating the feel. Very much prefer the older Suntour ratcheting which just feel more solid/sure and the Shimanos that are switchable. 

[Ted Durant]

On Monday, April 15, 2024 at 8:27:21 PM UTC-5 ber...@bernardduhon.com wrote:

Previous threads and literature suggests that the closer the cogs in 10 & 11 speeds makes for better friction shifting.

 

What has been your experience? 

Like others, I have had mixed experience. A few observations -

1. On a very springy frame, derailer cables get yanked when you push hard on the pedals. I have a Terraferma that's so flexible even I can make it swing. I currently have some Cyclone derailers and Silver 1 shifters on that bike, with a 9-speed cassette, and there's no way I could tighten the shifters enough to keep it from ghost shifting if I do an out-of-the-saddle stoplight sprint. Other than that, it's a nice, smooth-shifting experience. It can be a little tricky to quiet the rear derailer when a cog is between clicks of the shifter. Which leads to ...

2. The reduction in derailer actuation (the ratio of derailer movement to cable movement) has been driven by the desire to have more cable movement per cog, to improve index shifting. The same effect can be felt with friction shifting, especially with shifters that use a micro-ratchet mechanism (like Silver). If the derailer requires only a small amount of cable movement to shift one cog, I find that the shifter can be between clicks, requiring one extra click then a slight shove forward. This gets pretty fiddly and would certainly be annoying if you're riding with the carbon folks or are oxygen deprived at 13k feet. Which leads to ...

3. The Simplex retrofriction bar-end shifters are absolutely perfect for shifting SRAM "exact actuation" (1.30 derailer actuation) derailers over 10-11 speed cassettes. The 1.30 derailer actuation requires a fair amount of cable pull, and the Simplex bar-ends pull a lot of cable. Being retrofriction instead of ratchets, you never have the problem of being between clicks. Don't go putting Simplex retrofriction downtube levers on your bike and think you'll get the same experience, though. The downtube levers pull much less cable.

Bottom line ... you have to match your friction levers to your derailer and cog count combo if you want a system that works without a lot of fiddling. Not that fiddling is bad, necessarily. But you also should feel free to decide that indexing is better for your style of riding.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee WI USA

[ascpgh]

What makes friction work for me isn't only about holding the derailleur position, ie: not having frame flex produce cable pull or the lever slip, but rather the tactile ability to quickly and accurately move to the next cog without need to trim. If the feedback required to do that is only sounds, perhaps the Campy cassette has a greater ability to cope silently with a bit of trim needed but is really close to engaging the ramps to the next cog (presuming your ghost shifting is to a larger cog). 

On my Rambouillet I have 8-Spd Shimano cassette, Suntour Barcons and a fixed RD upper pulley (vs floating) Mavic 840/845 RD. I can feel the need for trim through the pedals and at the lever when making the shift. This is an easy to shift bike in situations with lots of noise. I found out last week riding this bike for the first time in a couple of years on a regular group ride that it does not accoustically  telegraph my shifts compared to all the hollow/resonant CFRP index only shifting bikes (cable or wireless) drive trains. Those seem to cultivate pedaling through shifts, no matter how hard you are pedaling and some really audible shifting events. Unsure if this is just novice rider behavior or a rationalizing selling point for the more experienced rider who thinks easing on the pedals is weakness and a source of speed loss. Either way, others listen for shifting as a cue in groups, actively or passively and my drive train doesn't give it. 

On my commuter I have 8-Spd Shimano cassette, Shimano bar end shifters and a floating upper pulley Shimano XT RD. I cannot as accurately friction shift this drive train despite my commuting times providing a pretty quiet environment and still do not have as confident friction shifting due to less tactile feedback from either the levers or pedals and I mostly leave it in indexing mode.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh 

On Monday, April 15, 2024 at 9:27:21 PM UTC-4 ber...@bernardduhon.com wrote:

[Hoch in ut]

I’ve tried 8,9,10 speeds with friction shifting. 10 speed, nope. 9 was ok But settled on 8-speed for pretty much all friction shift bikes. 

[Steve]

The fact that the "Friction vs Indexed" conversation has persisted for over 30 years now is testimony that both have their merits.

- My Rivendell with a 3x8 drivetrain and Silver 2 thumb shifters is, of course, in friction mode (as was my 1970 ten speed Schwinn and my mid 70's Raleigh). I like it that way. 

- My Ritchey with 1x11 and a Microshift thumbie  is usually in indexed mode, but I'll switch mid-ride to friction whenever it's a bit out of tune and I don't feel like playing with the barrel adjusters. I like it that way.

[Patrick Moore]

FWIW, I read a few years ago that using a chain 1 generation more advanced than one's cassette improved shifting because the later and narrower chain avoids rubbing on adjacent cogs a wee but noticeable bit better than the earlier chain. I've been using 11 sp chains on my 10 sp cassettes, and while the difference isn't striking, I think it does keep the chain quieter while not in any way compromising shifting precision or speed.

In any event, the best friction shifting I've enjoyed is 10 cogs with cassettes built using not only 10 sp spacers but real 10 sp cogs, with both 10 sp and 11 sp chains. The 9 and 8 sp cassettes I used had proper spacers but cogs of all ages and generations including 7s and Uniglides, but even those shifted fine -- I never complained, even tho' my 10s shift better. 

I said yesterday and someone else also pointed out that a great deal of friction shifting precision results from a happy match of shifter with derailleur. The 9 speed drivetrain that shifted in friction almost as well as the "proper" 10 sp systems was a bastard cassette shifted by a Microshift rd pulled by a first-gen Silver BES. Lovely, tho' due to the mismatch of the cogs, not quite as lovely as the current Barcon + 7402 + 10 sp cassette build from proper 10 sp cogs carrying 11 sp chain.

Patrick Moore, who also found that small-barrel Retrofriction dt shifters shifted 10 sp Am Classic close ratio cassettes very, very well, back circa 2003-2005.

[Patrick Moore]

OTOH: I recall a practically new Schwinn Collegiate bought at Goodwill that had a 5 speed square-tooth wide range freewheel shifted by a second-gen Alvit rear derailleur pulled by a massive, chromed steel lever clamped to the stem quill; possibly Suntour ratcheting? I don't recall.

At any rate, I was struck at how well it shifted, if you moved the lever confidently and with authority. The chain would move promptly to the next cog with a loud "thump" without any rattling afterward and the need to trim the derailleur. Again, the system seemed to be in new condition.

--

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Executive resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, letters, and other writing services

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When thou didst not, savage, know thine own meaning,

But wouldst gabble like a thing most brutish,

I endowed thy purposes with words that made them known.