Intro post, pics of my RIvs, and a Homer fit question

[Ethan K]

Hi all, wanted to introduce myself and my bikes. Over the last six months I went from zero to two Rivendells, and joined this group--though this is my first post: First up, a Cheviot, picked up secondhand, as my city bike.  Previous owner built this up swanky: Son, XTR,, Pacenti, Paul, XT, etc. . added the front and rear racks. I also picked up a Riv Happisack, which alternates with the YEPP mount. Apologies for the distinctly un-glamorous garage pic:

I love this bike. It is exceedingly comfortable and beautiful. 

Last month I took delivery of a Homer,  which I had built up to be a zippy road bike with a classic look: 9 speed friction shifting using the Dia Compe shifters to XT derailleur, Rene Herse crankset, Paul brakes, the TRP drilled brake levers, with Velocity Quill rims on Deore hubs. 

That said, as beautiful as this bike is, I haven't been able to get comfortable on it. I am too stretched out. I have tried raising the bars a bit from these pics, but fundamentally I think the reach is too long. I gave my height/PBH to Antonio at Rivendell, and they set the bike up with an 80mm stem. I have ordered a 70mm version of the stem, though I'm concerned that's getting pretty short. Next step if that's not enough is try a shorter-reach handlebar, in a narrower size.  If that doesn't work I fear I will need to sell the bike. I could replace the drops with upright bars, but I already have the Cheviot and specifically wanted a drop-bar endurance/all-roadish bike. 

I get the need to raise the bars, but I don't want a situation where the bars are 5" above the saddle. 

Any thoughts on other ways to get this bike to fit better?

Thanks!

--Eitan (in Los Angeles)

[Bill Lindsay]

Here are a few thoughts:

People who know exactly what works for them figure it out over a long time with lots of bikes, and have a set of numbers in their pocket so they can know before buying whether a particular will set up correctly for them.  It sounds like you don't have that all figured out for yourself.  Is that a reasonable assumption?

People who don't have their fit completely figured out for themselves are usually well advised to get a fitting from an experienced fitter who understands the target use-case.  Can you find such a person?  Have you had anybody who knows about such things look at you while you are riding?  

This is intended for an endurance/all-road use case.  Are you currently an endurance athlete?  Or do you aspire to be an endurance athlete?  Do you want the bike to fit the body you have, or the body you intend to have?  

Those are my thoughts.  Best of luck

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[John Bokman]

I would try the shorter stem. I have a Sam that I initially thought was too long for me, even though I'm smack dab in the middle of the charts for PBH sizing. (My legs are long, my torso not so much.) I installed a 7 cm stem (from a  10 cm ) and it made enough of a difference for me to get comfortable. I could probably go to an even shorter stem (I'm using Nitto tecnomic) but the 7cm stem seems short enough. If you are using a Technomic, I believe you can get as short as a 5 cm (could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure you can get a 6, anyway). In my case, as I have become more flexible, with better bike posture, I have noticed a long top tube does not cause me undue problems. Just something to consider - or not.

John

Portland OR

[Cody Marvin]

I've had similar reach issues before, including on my Sam Hillborne. I've found I like the Soma Hwy One and the Nitto/Blue Lug Fairweather 174 bars. They both have shorter reach and less drop than the Noodle (I'm guessing that's what you have?). The drops on the Soma bars come back pretty far and can make things feel a little cramped with bar ends, but I still like and use them (I suppose you could also cut them down). The Blue Lug bars are maybe a better design for bar ends, but I think they're often out of stock.

Cody, Chicago

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[Ethan K]

Thanks Bill,  I don't have my bike fit completey figure out yet. I used to bike a lot more 20 years ago (mountain biking) and have recently gotten back into riding. To your point, I am hoping to get a professional bike fit sometime in the near future. (Nate Loyal seems well-recommended and reviewed.)  Not cheap but likely one of the best bang for the buck bike "upgrades." When I mention "endurance," I am referring more to "road bike with more relaxed geometry than a race bike," than endurance athletics per se. I am in decent shape but would like to be able to work up to  day-long rides, which will require some work on aerobic endurance as well as adjustments to bike and rider.  Currently I am significantly less comfortable on the Homer than on the drop-bar Breezer Doppler Pro I have. I was too stretched on that one until I switched out the bars. The bars I am thinking of for the Homer are the Velo Orange Rando bars, which have about a 10mm shorter reach than the Noodle, and will accomodate bar ends. 

On Wednesday, February 7, 2024 at 2:42:05 PM UTC-8 Bill Lindsay wrote:

[ian m]

You can compare the geometry of the Homer against your Breezer on bikeinsights.com. Worth a look to find the differences

[Bill Lindsay]

When comparing, give a good look at seat tube angle.  Rivendells are more laid back than most.  Many people just slide their saddle all the way back out of habit, and on a Rivendell, that may put you an inch or more further back than on some other bikes with a 74 degree seat tube angle.  If the Homer indeed has a slacker seat tube angle, then you'd need to run the saddle further forward on the rails to get the same butt to feet position as your "known good" machine.  

Good luck with the exploration and experimentation

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

I suggest measuring the distance form the tip of the saddle to the line between the brake levers on the Breezer if this bike fits you.  Measure the same on the AHH.   I think you will find the Breezer has a shorter distance.  You can then see how much length reduction each change will  make.

The seat tube setback for the 2 bikes is calculated using      SH * cos STA.   SH = Saddle Height,  STA =seat tube angle

Calc for each and take the difference.  See if you can move the AHH saddle forward (per Bill L's suggestion) to cancel the difference.

All AHH have a 71.5° STA.  If your SH = 83cm (just a guess) and the Breezer STA is 73°, the AHH is setback by 21mm vs the Breezer.   You probably can move the AHH full forward to make up the seat tube setback

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Joe Bernard]

What are the sizes of your Riv frames? 

[Joe Bernard]

There's no Appaloosa in question, the mustard bike is a Homer. 

On Wednesday, February 7, 2024 at 8:15:40 PM UTC-8 iamkeith wrote:

I said "bosco," but meant "chaco."  The first ones, on the first run of appaloosas, were the bullmoose version.  

(The bosco was designed, coincidentally, in tandem with a model that was also originally going to be called the Appaloosa, but never went beyond prototype form.  It's usually referred to now as tge mystery bike or long bike.)

On Wednesday, February 7, 2024 at 8:39:43 PM UTC-7 iamkeith wrote:

First of all, "welcome,"  and beautiful bikes!

I'd encourage you not to give up on getting the appaloosa to fit, even if it requires some out-of-the-box solutions, or thinking in diferrent ways than you're accustomed or predisposed to.  Put some miles on it and get to know it intimately.  And then, if you DO decide it's not ideal as the drop bar bike you dreamed of, get something else BEFORE you get rid of the appaloosa.  This group is full of people who sold a Rivendell only to regret it after the fact.  Your bike might be  perfect as something you don't yet realize you need.

A couple of things you may or may not be aware of:

1.  As with many Riv models, the appaloosa was originally conceived with a specific handlebar in mind.  In this case it was the Bosco, which was likewise originally made FOR the Appaloosa.   You could descibe that as drop bar- or moustache bar-like, in that it has multiple hand positions, but it doesn't have the long, forward reach of those bars.  It comes back TOWARD the rider.  I'm actually sort of surprised Antonio recommended that stem and reach.  I'd expect that to work for me, with my abnormally-long torso, but not normal people.

2.  Stems are available with very short reach, or none at all:

https://analogcycles.com/products/analog-wright-stem?variant=40095824674993

Grant recently blahged about a bike with a stem turned around and reaching backward  and said it felt totally normal.

3.  Another thing Grant has discussed better than I can, is the self-negating effect of raising your stem without ALSO shortening it.  (Not even sure I paraphrased that properly, but it's worth reading before you mess around with things too much.)  I think that one is on the website articles.

[iamkeith]

Oops.  Never mind.  Don't know why I thought that's what I was looking at.  Something about the angle of the photo and frame color made my mind jump to something that wasn't there.  Being distracted while typing on my phone....  It all makes more sense now.

[Sarah Carlson]

I'm building a Homer now, also to be my endurance bike. I don't do drop bars because of a wacky shoulder, and what was recommended to me was the Choco bar which has some of qualities of a drop bar, but also a swept back quality. I have not tried it yet, but that's what I'm aiming for.

I hope you find a solution that works, it's a beautiful bike.

Sarah

On Wednesday, February 7, 2024 at 1:20:53 PM UTC-8 eitanz...@gmail.com wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

I don't know your frame sizes so I'll do some wild guessing based on photos: I believe you have a 55cm Cheviot and a 54.5 Homer. If this is accurate the effective toptube numbers should be about the same and you're happy with the pullback bars on the Chev. Conclusion: the Homer may be a bit big for you, which is why the reach to drops is too long. I agree with Riv that a 7cm stem should help but I'm concerned that you'll still find the Homer kinda big-ish. 

Joe Bernard, who fits a 55 Chev with pullbacks and would need a 51 Homer for drops 

[Tim Bantham]

If you want to use drops on your Homer I would say don't have any concerns over shortening the stem to 5cm or even less. I've done that on my 62 Sam and rides great!

[ian m]

If the standover height is acceptable, then I would argue the larger frame is going to lead to a better fit. I have a hard time with just the raw data which is why I like using bike insights. Comparing the 54.5 and 51 Homers, we can see a few important points: the stack is much higher meaning the bars are already starting higher. Even with an effective top tube increase of 15mm, the reach is only 1mm more on the 54.5. Easily mitigated with a stem. Seat is going to land on the same axis with either size, so fit should be very similar with less seatpost and stem showing.

On Thursday, February 8, 2024 at 9:20:54 AM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:

[Chris Fly]

so I have a first gen Homer with drop bars and I totally get your point on reach, they do seem to be long bikes.. at least with drop bars fitted. Plus, I firmly believe the Riv folks tend to skew to putting folks a bike one size too large for them (at least in my experience).. 

What I did was get the Velo Orange quill stem with removable faceplate. This stem allows you to use 31.8 bars (or smaller with shims) and opens up a TON more bar options than a traditional quill stem with the smaller diameters. I'm currently using Salsa Cowbell bars as they have a shorter reach and shorter drop that I MUCH prefer over something like a Noodle.. another point is the wider the bars, the longer the reach will feel.. 

Chris in Sonoma County

[maxcr]

Agreed, I used to run a 30mm extension (w)right stem from Analog Cycles paired with a short reach SimWorks Co-Misirlou Bar on my 61 Toyo AHH. I think a shorter 5cm or even 30mm extension stem will do the trick if you're set on dropbars 

Max 

[Ethan K]

Hi all, thank you so much for the replies. To answer some questions and provide additional info: 

Joe you are correct: 55 Cheviot, 54.5 Homer. I had thought about getting a purple Apaloosa when they went on sale last year, but after talking to Rivendell, realized that the Homer was a better fit for my use case. Once I saw they were offering the butternut/mustard/classic Datsun color, I was in. 

 It's tough picking a size without getting a chance to try the bikes first, so I utilized the PBH sizing Riv recommends--but I do think the frame is a bit large, all things considered. Standover does work for me, so I'm hopeful I can get it to work.  I already have the seat forward on the rails, btw. I will swap the stem this weekend and see how that goes. Next  would be  handlebars, going shorter reach and also narrower. (sounds like I shouldn't be afraid of going even shorter.) I'm currently running a 46cm Noodle, which feels wide in addition to long. When I swapped bars on the Breezer, I went with shorter AND narrower, going from 44-42, and both of those changes helped a lot. . Oh, and Chris, thanks for reminding me about handlebar diameter. I forgot about the different standards. I think between bar and stem, I can make it work for me. This bike is beautiful (way more than my pic), and I put a lot of thought into the build. In retrospect, I would have gotten the bike fit first, with the Breezer, to get all the #s I need. 

Also, thank you Liz for the detailed fit info and the suggestion regarding quill/threadless adapters for the bike fit. I was wondering how that would work.

--Eitan

[Joe Bernard]

Ah, that bar is indeed quite wide and deep. I tried a 46cm Noodle many years ago and it lasted about two weeks on my bike, it felt like the reach doubled! 

[Collin A]

Daaaaang, these are some enviable rivs! Definitely a fan of the homer, and you can find stems shorter than 70 if needed (down to 0!). When I ran drop bars on my Appaloosa I used a 60mm stem and even that felt a hair too long given the already long top tube. I also dabbled with a 0mm stem on my clem with wide 35 deg backsweep bars, which was 100% too big for me, and it rode mostly fine. It did take some miles to get used to it though.

Other bar recommendations would be the Nitto x Fairweather m174aa bars, but they sadly seem to be discontinued (can find them used now and again). They had 'modern' drop and reach, but had a 25.4 clamp diam.

Fairweather x Nitto Components! - BLUE LUG BLOG

Wishing you many happy miles on both!

Collin in Berktown

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Ethan

I suggest you measure your AHH and Breezer as I suggested.  This will give you a good idea of how much each change on the AHH goes to meeting the distance you have on the Breezer.  Your Noddle bars are already short reach, 96mm comes to mind changing bars may not give you much.   

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Chris Fly]

not sure I'd call the Noodles short reach with a 92mm (per Riv site) reach.. maybe shorter than some older school bars, but current bar design has much shorter reaches.. the Salsa Cowbells I use on my Homer have a reach of 68mm and drops of 115mm.. the Noodles have a much deeper drop at 140mm that, for me, is far to deep to really be useful.. but everyone has their own preferences.. the other bars I like are the Ritchey Butano bars that have a 73mm reach and 115mm drops.. 

Chris in Sonoma County 

[Joe Bernard]

A 46cm Noodle may be just dandy for a taller person but I ride the same size bikes as the OP and had them on a Bridgestone RB-1. WAY too deep and wide for me. 

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Chris stated,  " not sure I'd call the Noodles short reach with a 92mm (per Riv site) reach.. maybe shorter than some older school bars, but current bar design has much shorter reaches."

2019 Nitto catalog page 9 shows the Mod 177 (noodles) having a 95mm Reach, BUT the ends come back towards the rider by 7mm so the 'Reach at the curve forward' is 88mm.  The Noodles also have a SHALLOW (less steep) Ramp as can be seen in the bar profiles in the Nitto catalog.  In the past, Grant stated the shallow ramp was a main factor in the comfort of the bar, your hands have less tendency to slide down the ramp.  You only need to rotate them around 15 degrees to have a flat ramp section.

Yes you can get shorter reach bars, BUT they may have steep ramps and may not be as comfortable as the 177.   My point is the 177 is already short reach, so think about shorter stems before possibly compromising on bar comfort.

WRT to the 140mm Drop, RBW designed the bar to be at or above saddle height, so the effective drop is much shorter.   I have my bars at 10mm above SH and when using the Noddle I was comfortable in the drops for extended periods of time.   True, if your bars are below SH, Drop will have more significance.

John Hawrylak      comfortable on 44cm RH Radonnuer bar at or +10mm of SH and rotated about 25deg down for the small bump, but thinks a 42 or 40 may be better

Woodstown NJ

[Patrick Moore]

Ethan: Two suggestions:

1. Don't use saddle adjustment to adjust your bar. Get your saddle where it should be for greatest comfort and pedaling efficiency -- saddle height and setback in relation to the bottom bracket or crank axle is where I start my setup -- and then determine from saddle position where your bar should be, and choose stem and bar to suit.

2. For the ultimate in shortness and shallowness in a drop bar (narrowness too, it seems), take a look at the Specialized Hover bar: https://www.specialized.com/us/en/hover-expert-alloy-handlebars--15mm-rise/p/156001?color=230548-156001

It's ugly but it has essentially no ramps because the reach is so short and it has a very shallow drop with a 15 mm rise at the stem clamp. I used one of these on my erstwhile Medium 2012 Monocog (gave it to a friend) to get a drop bar more or less comfortable on a frame with (by my road standard) an immensely too long top tube (59.6 cm versus my preferred 56 or 57 cm). I tried it with several stems (expensive even with generic MVS or whatever they were stems), going from 17* 9 cm to 30 or 35* 7 cm. Still a wee bit far but much, much better. I went thru this bar and stem contortion because even a Hover bar (mine was 44 cm) a cm or 2 too far away was better than any non-drop bar I could find.

On Thursday, February 8, 2024 at 8:14:49 PM UTC-5 Ethan K wrote:

...  I already have the seat forward on the rails, btw. I will swap the stem this weekend and see how that goes. Next  would be  handlebars, going shorter reach and also narrower. (sounds like I shouldn't be afraid of going even shorter.) I'm currently running a 46cm Noodle, which feels wide in addition to long. When I swapped bars on the Breezer, I went with shorter AND narrower, going from 44-42, and both of those changes helped a lot.

[Chris Fly]

Agree with Patrick on the seat setback, you don’t want to futz with that once it’s set where you need it based on only the saddle and not the reach.. 

And the Specialized bars are nice, I run those on two of my non-Riv bikes.. Ritchey also makes the Ergomax bars that are similar to the Spec. bars, but have a bit of backsweep that could help bring the hoods a little bit closer.. 

Chris 

Make a space for people to come as they are and not have to just “fit in”

On Feb 10, 2024, at 11:27 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Elisabeth Sherwood]

I second Patrick's thoughts on the saddle position -- don't adjust for reach using the saddle position! Rather, get the saddle where you want it and then figure out how to get the bars in the right position.

But, re. the Specialized Hover bars, don't forget that they feature 15mm of rise, while Eitan is finding that his handlebars are already too high!

The Specialized Expert Alloy Shallow Bend bar features the same shape and 75mm reach of the Hover, but without the rise...  But it remains less than ideal on a Riv because it's available only in black and with a 31.8mm clamp diameter.

For that reason, I always return to the Soma Highway One handlebar!  Available in silver, and in 26.0mm clamp diameters! (Same 75mm reach as the Specialized bars...)

Liz

Washington, DC

[Elisabeth Sherwood]

Oh, btw, for those who need to find something with absolutely the shortest reach possible (and are okay with black handlebars and a 31.8mm handlebar clamp), Specialized "Short Reach" bars have a 65mm reach!  (And the rest of the lovely shape as the Hover and Shallow Bend handlebars...)  They only come in 36cm, 38cm, and 40cm widths (which probably works fine for most people who need ridiculously short-reach bars!)

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/short-reach-handlebars/p/156040?color=230922-156040

Cheers!

Liz 

Washington DC

[Ethan K]

You guys have given me multiple good handlebar suggestions! I think I will rule out the Specialized bars though, as they seem to come in black only. That's fine for the Breezer but for this bike, I really want silver.  Looks like both the Ritchey Venturemax and VO Randonneur are both 31.8mm only. The Soma Highway One  is available  in 26mm--so by process of elimination may be the winner...

--Eitan

Los Angeles

[ian m]

If you, like me, prefer Nitto to all alternatives check out the M151. I believe Soma sells that model as well.

[Garth]

Zipp's Service Course XPLR 70 come in silver and are short reach/shallow drop. (70/115). I chose this bar as I'm using a long body Tektro brake lever(341) and my frames have a longer than usual reach. So with this riding with my hands on the top/middles is as entirely comfortable as the hoods and the drops as I still have lots of reach to stretch out in all positions. The middle is oval shaped and has a slight 4-5d flare back to it. Subtle but noticeable. I just can't see going back to a rounded middle type of bar. I also bought a Ritchey Skyline Comp(black only) which has a similar ergo top and small drop/reach, but haven't used them yet. These change in reach/drop slightly per width. 

Zipp has some some other silver drop bars too. I'd like to try them all, but you know how that goes ...... 

The Tektro 341 "compact" lever has the same full body as the 340, but the lever itself is shaped different so it's easier to grab in the drops. They're marketed for small-er hands, but I find they mate perfectly with shallow drop bars, and I have XL hands. I'm not a fan of the bent/offset levers though as I think it flares out too much. It seems a solution to a non-existent problem, and creates a problem in doing so, doh ! 

As for the saddle position, sheesh. Well everything I ever thought about positioning oneself over the BB has been shown to be folly, so about all I can say is if you get the urge to move forward, just do it and see what happens. :-)

[Toshi Takeuchi]

If you are going 31.8, then Salsa Cowbells go wider and have 68 mm reach.  I have those bars on my Roadeo and the slight bit of flare makes it more comfortable for me.

https://www.salsacycles.com/gear/cowbell

Toshi

[Ted Durant]

On Wednesday, February 7, 2024 at 1:20:53 PM UTC-8 eitanz...@gmail.com wrote:

That said, as beautiful as this bike is, I haven't been able to get comfortable on it. I am too stretched out.

Yup, that is a beautiful bike! I know the feeling of being too stretched out, even as someone who is naturally quite flexible and likes to ride in a pretty low back position. My Sams are set up with a shorter reach than my other bikes and I have found I like it. Contrary to the others and to "conventional wisdom", I have not found saddle fore-aft position to be so critical that I have to nail it to the mm. I am comfortable and feel similarly powerful over a range of 15-20mm. My Sams have much shallower seat tube angles than my other bikes, and I have the saddles pushed forward a bit, but not a lot. Like a couple of other posters, I wouldn't hesitate to go to an 8 or even 7cm stem to get the reach that you like. I use my personal cubit to judge reach - put your elbow against the front of the saddle and see where your finger tips lie relative to the handlebars. Most my bikes have the bars about 20mm ahead of my fingers. On my Sams my fingers just touch the bars.

As others have pointed out, Noodle bars have a pretty good reach. In addition, the TRP brake lever hoods are looooooong. The combined effect is quite a bit of extra reach. I very much like having lots of reach and drop on the bars so my position varies a lot as I move my hands. But it does mean you need a shorter stem so the on-the-hoods position feels neutral.

Ted Durant

[John Bokman]

Ted, thanks for that handy tip concerning fit. My Sam fits just how you describe: Elbow at saddle nose, fingertips just brushing the bars. I'd never measured this way before, but knew immediately when I swapped a 7 cm stem from the original 10cm stem that it was a vast improvement. I'd always felt that my other bike (not a riv) was just a tad too long, also. By employing your method, I have since shortened the stem (7cm from 9cm). Noticeable improvement for me.

John