Son Hub advice

[Peter Fray]

Hi, 

I'm looking to get the Son dynamo hub. Considering it's price I'd rather make an informed (still quite impulsive) decision..hah!

I have a bike with both rim and disc brake mounts (with QR) so I usually buy disc hubs, to future proof the hub purchase, but continue to run v-brakes (for now). Is this a sound approach to continue with this buy i.e. disc hubs with v-brake rims?

Based on SON's website, I think Son28 would be appropriate considering it's better to charge devices at low speeds. So, in this case I would take the "SON 28 Hub Dynamo - 6-Bolt - QR".

Thank you for your insight!

Peter

[Peter White]

Disc hubs typically don't have the flange spacing as wide as a non-disc hub. On a disc wheel, having the rim flexing from side to side isn't a problem. But with rim brakes if the rim is flexing side to side it will be rubbing on the brake pads, especially if you run your pads close to the rim, as I do. So yes, you can certainly use a disc hub with rim brakes, but it isn't ideal, unless you're a very light rider. For example, Linda and I both have SON Deluxe hubs on our road bikes. I weigh about 40lbs more than Linda. I use the Wide Body version and she uses the standard SON Deluxe. Neither of us need to charge any electronics while we ride, so we don't use the slightly heavier SON 28 hubs.

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Peter White

[Bill Schairer]

Personally, I would just get what you really want without thought of "future proof."

Bill S 

San Diego

[Joe Bernard]

I would agree with this. I've ridden plenty of discs (mechanical and hydraulic) and always end up back at my trusty v-brakes that are easy set up and don't scrape or squeal, I'd get the hub I like for the brakes I'm using now. 

[Brian Turner]

If you're thinking about "future proof", I'd just add this: it's getting more and more rare to find new disc brake bikes with QR, so if it were me, I would feel a bit limited with a QR disc wheelset these days. Most everything disc is going to thru-axle. I'd get the hub for the brakes you're riding most, IMO.

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[lconley]

Disc brakes with quick release hubs are a PITA.  Get the widest SON non-disc hub that that you can afford.

But remember, this advice is coming from an overweight guy who builds new wheels for himself several times a year, so I go all-in on wheel strength, I have a huge parts stash, and I know that obsolete parts are just an eBay search away.

Peter White, the generator hub guru, is the importer for SON hubs and also sells Panasonic generator hubs (until his current stock sells out) $60 for non disc, $70 for disc. You could build two Panasonic hubbed wheels for the price of a SON hubbed wheel if you wanted. But get the wide SON hub wheel.

Laing

Who owns four SON hubs (1 disc), two Shimano generator hubs,  one Shutter Precision disc generator hub, one Sturmey Archer OG drum brake Dynohub, one Panasonic disc Dyna Hub, one Sanyo bottom bracket mounted generator, one Flying Pigeon OE bottle generator, and one VO sourced generator hub (that doesn't play well with LED lights) that I cannot remember the manufacturer of.

[Mr. Ray]

Like others have said, get the hub for the brakes you use.  If you still want to "future proof", get the SON disc hub for Shimano "centerlock" discs.  It provides a slightly stronger wheel build than the "6 bolt ISO" disc version; spokes closer to equal on both sides.  Also pick the 12mm thru axle version.  With an adaptor you can make this version work with QR's.

[Patrick Moore]

Laing: Curious: How does the SA Dynohub (tm) perform in powering a modern LED headlight compared to modern dynohubs? Can you get full LED headlamp brightness at a modest cruising speed, say 12-15 mph?

I once owned both a front Dynohub (tm) and a combo rear AW + Dynohub (tm); both were damned heavy, but the rear combo must have weighed 10 lb, all in nice, shiny steel. I wish I'd kept the combo hub.

Patrick Moore, who has owned many bikes with QR disk brake wheels and had no problems with any of them.

On Sat, Apr 15, 2023 at 8:25 AM lconley <lco...@brph.com> wrote:

... 

Laing, Who owns ... one Sturmey Archer OG drum brake Dynohub ...

[ascpgh]

I have a SON QR disc hub on my commuter (love it, thanks Peter W.) and had it built so I could move it to my Rambouillet when I tire of either the bike (Disc Trucker) or no longer need a commuter.  So it has the same rim as my Ram and the disc mount is lockring instead of 6-bolt. A quarter turn with a Shimano cartridge BB/cassette lockring tool and it's gone. I unsderstand the flange stance difference between the disc and rim brake spec hubs but seems within reasonableness given that both are pretty large diameter flanges compared to non-generator hubs when considering the loss of flange width between the two. I felt like was getting two birds with one stone.

Future proof? My fifteen year experiment with discs on drop bar, bar end shifter bikes lead me to spec cantilevers on my custom two years ago. I'll gladly accept the the variables I know about brakes, braking, parts, pieces, installation and adjustment over unique, sporadic mystery sounds and finickiness that are beyond control and lead to throwing new parts into the system at a rate embarrassing compared to rim brakes. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 7:47:32 AM UTC-4 peter...@gmail.com wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

New thread to avoid my habit of yanking threads off-thread.

I'm curious to hear details of the problems you faced, the problems that frustrated you about disk brakes. 

I ask because I've found even cable disk brakes, and even really cheap cable disk brakes (OEM Tektros or what have you on the Monocog: these were so cheap they didn't even have pad adjusters; the only adjuster was the cables), and even cable disk brakes pulled by road levers perfectly ordinary and acceptable. On my Monocog 29er I have Shimano 600 AX lever (short pull, so I read) pulling Road BB7s, and they perform at least as well as most single pivot and centerpull calipers I've used -- more power, poorer modulation. I don't get rubbing, the "feel" is firm, the brakes stop fine; not the crushing power of hydraulics but "fine" -- I can hurt myself with the front brake.

Now, when I first used disks on my first 2010 Monocog 29er, I did have problems: very weak (oh, so laughably weak), rubbing, mushy levers; both with MTB BB7s and long-pull drop bar levers, and Road BB7s and standard road levers. 

But in frustration I researched BB7 setup, and learned a crucial trick: don't attach the cable to the actuation arm when the arm is fully relaxed; move the arm ~1/3 through its travel and attach the cable at that point. Wala; problem solved.

Now, with the Road BB7s on the current 2012 Monocog 29er I do find that I often have to mess with caliper positioning (not pad adjustment; re-positioning the entire caliper) when I remove and then replace a wheel; but this is accomplished simply by releasing the caliper mounting bolts, squeezing the lever, and re-tightening. This does not happen every time I remove and replace a wheel, and when it does happen it takes just a minute per caliper/wheel. And I use sealant in tubeless tires, so this happens as often as I have to adjust chain tension on the ss drivetrain.

And: the hybrid cable/hydraulic TRP HyRds: these are absolutely foolproof; set them up and afterward the only thing you have to do is remember not to squeeze the brake levers with the wheel removed, unless you insert a shim between the pads. 

Now, I ride in dry, dusty conditions. Very dusty conditions, as 3 or 4 inch silty sand, will occasionally -- "occasionally" -- cause a very faint "whisp-whisp-whisp" sound from pads and rotors, but this goes away once you get to firmer ground and it does not cause any noticeable drag. I have had excruciatingly loud squeal with wet pads but that occurred with a particular pad/rotor combo, and not with others.

I'll be interested to hear more about the problems, including a description of the calipers, levers, and whether cable or hydraulic or hybrid.

On Sun, Apr 16, 2023 at 9:22 AM ascpgh <asc...@gmail.com> wrote:

...  My fifteen year experiment with discs on drop bar, bar end shifter bikes lead me to spec cantilevers on my custom two years ago. I'll gladly accept the the variables I know about brakes, braking, parts, pieces, installation and adjustment over unique, sporadic mystery sounds and finickiness that are beyond control and lead to throwing new parts into the system at a rate embarrassing compared to rim brakes. 

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Patrick Moore]

Forgot to add that this happens only on the current 2012 Monocog 29er. I did not have to do this on the ~2010 Fargo with Shimano aero levers and BB7 Roads, or on the 2015 Matthews with ditto. Wheels and rotors slid out and back in without the pads rubbing after re-inserting.

On Sun, Apr 16, 2023 at 10:10 AM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

... Now, with the Road BB7s on the current 2012 Monocog 29er I do find that I often have to mess with caliper positioning (not pad adjustment; re-positioning the entire caliper) when I remove and then replace a wheel; but this is accomplished simply by releasing the caliper mounting bolts, squeezing the lever, and re-tightening. This does not happen every time I remove and replace a wheel, and when it does happen it takes just a minute per caliper/wheel. And I use sealant in tubeless tires, so this happens as often as I have to adjust chain tension on the ss drivetrain.

[Patrick Moore]

Oh heck; forgot to say: I attribute the difference in rotor/pad adjustment sensitivity to the difference between the cable pull ratios of the standard Shimano aero levers and the Shimano 600 AX levers.

[lconley]

Hydraulic disc brakes - turn the bike upside down or lay it on it's side and the brakes get mushy. It is impossible to get 100% of the air out of the system, so the "best" mechanics tell me , so changing the orientation of the bike will reintroduce air into the system and then you have to play with the brakes for a minute or so to get them back. 

Quick release disc brakes - have to reposition the caliper most of the time after re-installing the wheel. 

Advantages of disk brakes - none that I have found. Just like V-brakes, I cannot find any real increase in braking with disc or V-brakes over cantilevers. Cantilevers have a slight advantage over side-pulls, but very little over center-pulls. I spent the money on Paul Klampers and brake levers. The levers are the best, money well spent, and the Klampers are better than BB-7s in that they set up easier, but better braking than rim brakes - I would like to see it to justify the money, but I cannot.

I put all the hoopla about the advantages of disc brakes in the same category as frame "planing". I just don't see it. The Emperor has no clothes.

Has Jan Heine ever done any scientific research on brakes the way he has with tires?

The only truly massive difference in braking that I have ever seen is when I went from chrome rims (Schwinn Varsity Sport) to aluminum rims (Schwinn Super Sport) in the rain, now that is a big difference!

I like a bike that disappears when I ride. I check the tire pressure, then get on and "Just Ride".

I don't have to worry about replacing batteries in the lights or derailleurs, it doesn't handle weird or fight me, it doesn't beat me to death, everything just works. Inflating deflated tires (common thing when you own too many bikes) only requires a pump, not a procedure.

Laing

who doesn't necessarily take cycling advice from people whose parents weren't born when I rode my 1st century

[Piaw Na]

I actually haven't had any problems with the hydraulic disc brakes on my MTB, my kids MTBs, and my wife's MTB. We push our bikes hard enough off road to make them squeal so it's not like we're easy on them. The squealing on them isn't anywhere as bad as the squealing I've had on previous MTBs (Bridgestone MB-3) or touring bike (Heron Touring) with various cantilever, V-brakes, and Paul's Neo Retros. I've had cantilevers fall apart on me in the parking lot prior to starting a ride, and I hate doing even simple things like replacing brake pads on cantilevers --- they have too many degrees of freedom, and are tough to set correctly. For me, anyway, I wouldn't use rim brakes on a MTB that needs to take anything more than a 42mm tire.

That said, I never met a disc brake that I couldn't make squeal. (And before you ask, I'm 141 pounds --- but I do tour with around 15 pounds of gear) On a road bike, touring bike, or gravel bike that doesn't need anything wider than 42mm, I see no reason not to use dual pivot calipers. Brake pad alignment and replacement is easy and can be done in the field in all conditions, and I can always get them to the point where they don't squeal no matter what I do. I'm more likely to have a loose headset than a badly aligned brake pad at this point, and that's a good thing.

[Jeffrey Arita]

We've got various bikes that take all kinds of brake types - single/dual pivot, cantilever/V-type and disc.  Each has its own pluses and minuses, IMO.

- Single or dual pivot: ease of installation and setup - definitely true.  Adjusting brake pads - quite easy and straightforward.  Simple, decently powerful, easy to adjust.  Great for unloaded road bicycles and for JRA.  

- Canti's / V-brakes: Installation is a bit more involved as you've got to have cable stops.  Setting up brake pads is more involved vs single/dual pivots (time + trial & error).  Piaw's comment "too many degrees of freedome" ring 100% true for me.  However, the power of cantilevers/V-brakes cannot be denied.  We use cantis on our 2nd tandem and they are amazingly powerful - more powerful vs. the dual pivots on our other tandem.  Awhile ago I finally studied Sheldon Brown's cantilever brake setup.  Learned a lot and experimented a lot.  I think it is worthwhile.  Maybe not the best for loaded touring, if that is your thing.  Rims can get overheated really quickly, potentially causing tire blowouts.  We toured with cantis on the TransAm.  On some of those downhills in the west had to stop and drip water on the rims.  Yes, touching the rims and you would get burned.

- Disc brakes: we've got both cable-actuated mechanical and hydraulic disc brakes (TRP Spykes and Shimano XT, SLX).  Setup was straightforward for both - especially the hydraulics.  Both types of brakes are quite powerful,  moreso over the canti's as the disc-equipped bikes were heavily laden (unsupported touring - each bike's loadout without water was just under 100 pounds).  Rolling down 20+ miles of downhill on the GDMBR in Colorado - we were well able to control our speed.  This was where I learned about 'organic' pads vs 'sintered.'  Sintered pads will last a lot longer and will be more effective in wet conditions (scary to think how much of the rim brake surface would have been abraded off if rim-brake equipped).  We have not experienced any mushiness.  Almost set it and forget it.  Bleeding is straightforward.. One does need to check the disc pads though as organic pads will wear faster (vs. sintered).  But they provide a lot of confidence on lengthy dowhill singletrack or fire roads, enabling one to go to some pretty desolate and gorgeous places (photo of Montana wildflowers).

Just our 2 cents,

Jeff

Claremont, CA

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks for the responses. Very interesting opinions on the pluses and minuses of disk brakes. 

Disk brakes are obviously in many instances a matter of personal preference; rather like people who like wide bars versus those who hate anything much over 42 cm at the hoods.

Me, I fully agree that rim brakes are perfectly fine, my exception is for bikes ridden in dirt or in dirty conditions; I've seen rim wear from calipers in a single wet, messy 20 mile ride on pavement. 

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[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

How often have you worn out a rim completely from rim brakes? I can tell you the answer for me: exactly once.

I owned a Bridgestone MB-3 from 1993 to 2007. In its first year I rode it in Seattle, where a dry ride is one in which you submerge only one hub. I carried spare brake pads on every ride, and I would wear out brake pads every other ride. I rode in conditions where the BB would die after 3 months and the bike shop would comment that "we don't warranty bicycles that have been treated like submersibles." After that year, I moved to California and rode that bike in all conditions as well. Having said that, it doesn't rain that much in California. it took 14 years before the rims on the original bike wore out. By then I'd given the bike to my brother and he bought new wheels for it.

For all my other bikes (which also see all weather use), I see multiple (as in more than 10) brake pads use before I started using dental calipers to measure the rim. I still have yet to wear one out. Most of the time if I have to retire a rim it's because of a dent in it or other physical trauma rather than brake pad wear. Sure, I live in California, but I ride year round and I tour with my bikes in places where it rains. By contrast, my 7 year old has already bent a brake rotor on his Woom 4 beyond repair and he doesn't weigh 60 pounds!

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[Patrick Moore]

Sure, but after wearing noticeable grooves into a rim during one wet ride, I’m glad to have the option I’d disc brakes.

Patrick Moore

On Apr 17, 2023, at 7:22 PM, Piaw Na <pi...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Ian A]

I've worn a few out. One front rim unpeeled itself like a can of Spam! One set of ims wore out after a couple of years commuting in Vancouver BC. The other set wore out on a tour. I had about 12000km on the front rim when it did the unpeeling trick. I have also worn out a rim here in Alberta on my winter commuter. That took a few years though.

Russ from Path Less Pedaled interviewed Sam Alison from Singular Cycles recently. Sam is an Australian who has lived in the UK since 2005 (if memory serves) and he said that disc brakes were one of the most important advances in cycling. I grew up on the UK south coast and rain was a way of life for us! Liquid sunshine. 

In Alberta, it rarely rains and I am often homesick for those days of gentle rain. The best dog walking and jogging weather on the planet! Bike rims are almost as consumable as tires there in the UK.

IanA Alberta Canada

[Peter Fray]

Hello everyone, 

Thank you very much for the advice! I'd read it all then and came back today with the idea that I'll take the disc-hub. Then I read through the emails again....

Anyway, I think my thought on "future-proof" was incomplete. I have never tried disc brakes over a longer period so don't have any strong opinions about it - except that I don't know how to fix it if I have to (yet). That being said, if an opportunity comes up I would like to give it a shot. I should have also mentioned that this is for a bike (hopefully) meant for touring - so I'm always thinking of many birds and less stones. Perhaps "multiple-scenario-proof" would be better.

I'd decided on the disc-hub, considering I'll have my current frame not worrying about taking this hub to a thru axle frame, with the pros - 

- good v-brakes are getting hard to find - shimano still makes deore & xt but until when? (can't afford the pauls)

- option to switch to disc when I would like to try it

- 26" rims are also not too common - even more for rim-brakes, this gives the flexibility (disc rims could potentially also last longer considering I don't have to change the rim only the disc brakes parts)

The concerns in my head were first as Peter mentioned about the rim flexing, if this more the case with disc rims - this is an unknown unknown territory for me. Second, wider flange spacing would have been nicer, but I see a lot of people touring with disc Son hubs and I think these should hold good enough too.

Thank you for the suggestion for the centerlock brakes! Until last week I'd no idea there were multiple disc brake mounts - I read this is a Shimano thing so I'm wondering if it makes more sense to go with mounts that are more commonly used.

@Laing - I would be interested in the Panasonic hubs but I couldn't find much info/review on their durability for touring.

back to riding and thinking mode, 

Peter

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[ascpgh]

The manner of connecting the disc to a hub matters for disc replacement. When mounted the caliper only cares about the diameter of the rotor. I was happy to choose the center mount format. On their website they call six-bolt "robust" and center lock "Shimano format". 

Having to keep up with six threaded fasteners' torque and ensure they are not seized in the dissimilar metal's threads versus one larger fastener which only has to hold the disc fixture onto straight splines which handle the heavy forces. I cannot imagine the recovery from a stripped bolt hole in a six bolt format SON hub body. Your BB/cassette lockring  tool will operate the fastener. Nice big, larger diameter threading you can see and keep lubricated/anti-seized.

For my use (as originally presented) this hub, built by Peter W. on a Velocity Synergy rim, is on my Surly commuter. I can at will remove the disc and put it on my Rambouillet, used with the Racer rim brakes. To me that's future proofing, shedding the disc braked bike I use it on now was a secondary point that spawned its own thread now. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Peter Fray]

Thanks Andy. That was helpful. The argument for centerlock makes sense ...

I was just reading this gentle introduction to hubs while your message came through..and i realized the 6bolt/centerlock only matters for the disc. 

https://sugarwheelworks.com/technical-information/hub-information-and-details/

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