Long Chainstays - What Problem/Deficiency Do They Solve?

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Enjoyed reading the thread "Anyone else not a fan of long chainstays?", especially Bill L's explanation of the RBW bike design philosophy.   Seems the prevailing thought is long stays are better for

upright riding

single track type trails (vs a Rails to Trails type trail)

I'll just note 2 'facts'

1  The vast majority of RBW models (except the Roadeo type frame) use slack STA and HTA which may contribute to the ride effect when coupled with long stays.

2.  In the beginning RBW addressed getting the bars higher and adopting a non-racer riding style (back at 45° with hands on hoods), which IMHO were solutions to actual problems.

So What problem or current deficiency in bike design is Grant solving by using long chain stays????

Just to bring bikes to market that no one else is building??

Or do they solve a real problem???

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

FWIW 2 of 3 of my frames have 44 to 45cm chain stays, and 1 has a 43cm chain stay.    It's hard to notice a ride difference.

[Richard Rose]

Oh man, I don’t know where to start. I will by stating that as a cyclist for nearly 50 years I was aware of Rivendell since their inception. But I never really entertained owning one until the long chainstay bikes. Why? Because Rivendell’s looked like road bikes & to me the best road bikes came with the name of the maker on the downtube. My fascination with Rivendell coincided with no longer being obsessed with going fast & putting a higher priority on being comfortable & “chill”.

I don’t know how it can be argued that the long chainstay bikes with their large volume tires offer a smoother riding experience. And that superior ride definitely applies to “rail trails” and every other riding surface I am aware of. So I do not know that they “solve a problem” but rather challenge what a bike can be. First my Clem L gave me a riding experience I was unfamiliar with & became a bicycle that I could not, not ride. Then a Gus changed everything I thought I knew about mountain bikes. I am just one person & different strokes for different folks. But my experience with long chainstay bikes has been transformative. It’s the only reason I am interested in a Roaduno.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 31, 2024, at 1:50 PM, 'John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Enjoyed reading the thread "Anyone else not a fan of long chainstays?", especially Bill L's explanation of the RBW bike design philosophy.   Seems the prevailing thought is long stays are better for

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[Patrick Moore]

Grant extended the chainstays on my road customs from an XO-1-length 42 cm on the 1995 to 45 cm (to end of horizontal dropouts; Chauncey extended them by another cm or so with even longer dropouts) on the later 2, and I don't know if this is a problem and a solution, but the later 2 customs handled noticeably better than the first (which was noticeably better with similar wheels, tires, and build than the 1992 XO-1). The latter 2 have become my handling benchmark by exhibiting even more than the first-gen Sam and second-gen Ram the perfect combination of cornering nimbleness with unerring stability. The first was not quite stable enough (the XO-1 neither as stable nor as perfect in turn-in), the Ram very balanced but for my taste a bit staid, and the Sam tracked too strongly -- didn't want to change a line -- in fast corners and exhibited front-end wag on slow, seated climbs.

Chauncey built my 2 Matthews with similar geometry and they exhibit similar handling.

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[Steve]

John, you've asked a good question. To my mind all three of your bikes have long to longish chain stays.  Granted, the magic most probably lies in the marriage of long chain stays with slack HT and ST angles and a comfortable pedaling position - however - if you want to find the answer to your question you might try riding a bike with chain stays of say 130cm or < on a less than smooth roadway (or better yet a trail) and then ride your bike with the 145cm stays over the same course. Throw in some climbs and descents. I'm betting you'll discover the long CS bike feels more stable, controlled, and a bit easier on the tush.

Steve 

[Josiah Anderson]

I am a big fan of the long chainstays, having had them on two Gus Boots-Willsens – a first-generation blue one that was lost to an idiot driver a few months into my time with it, and now a Mermaid one from the newer batch. It sounds like maybe you don't approve of the long-stay design, and I'm not sure whether you've ridden one, but I would recommend finding one to try out if you haven't. Maybe some of your very many question marks will be turned into exclamation points.

 My Gus rides more smoothly over bumpy surfaces than any other non-suspension bike I have ridden, and as a tall rider (6'4"), I appreciate the feeling of fore-aft stability that comes from being more in the middle of the bike rather than on top of the rear wheel. It also displays superb handling on snow and ice, which I attribute to the more even weight distribution as well as the overall length. And for more technical trails with steep climbing and descending, the long wheelbase feels like cheating: I can easily spin my way up grades that have my friends on mainstream mountain bikes falling over backwards. The floating sensation that occurs when descending fire roads is indescribable – it reminds me of cruising down the highway in an ancient first-generation New Flyer low floor bus that I had the pleasure of driving for my job for a little while. 

To answer your question more specifically, I think the problem the long-stay Rivs solve is that there were no bikes that have that distinctive ride quality, and now there are. Maybe you have to have experienced it to appreciate it. I was skeptical before I bought my first Gus, but I trusted Rivendell to build a good bike, and I'm very glad I went for it. I will also hypothesize that the mainstream mountain bike world will "discover" long chainstays in three or four more years after they see a few more people like me easily clean steep climbs where their shred sleds are ineffective wheelie machines.

Josiah Anderson

Missoula, MT

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[Bill Lindsay]

The OP asked: "What problem or current deficiency in bike design is Grant solving by using long chain stays????"

What exactly is this entity you call "bike design"?  If you can define that, perhaps I can respond to your question (emphatically stated with FOUR question marks)

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[John Hawrylak]

Bill

 

Good challenge, what I was thinking is what problem with bikes is the long C/S solving?  I thought it was a straight forward question.

 

I suggest eliminate “in bike design” and problems or current deficiencies refer to the current bikes available.    Another way of saying it is what “improvements” in bicycles result from the Long C/S.      

 

So far the responses indicate Long C/S improve

Overall handling, seems to apply to all surfaces.

Comfort, especially from bumps in the surface.

Climbing and Descending single track type trails (like the ones in the RBW pictures on Mt Diablo).  The climbing improvement appears to due to improved weight distribution vs improved bio-mechanical items.

 

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

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[William Lindsay]

John

OK so you are saying that every bike on earth that is currently available are all in one group and Rivendells are not in that group.  In order  to be allowed to exist a Rivendell must either conform with the first group’s designs or solve some objective problem not addressed by all other bikes.  Is that it?  

BL in EC

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[Mathias Steiner]

No, he's saying the most obvious departure from the mainstream -- if we need to define it, call it current gravel bikes and road bikes from Trek -- is the long chainstays.

John H can correct me if necessary.

My answer is it gets the panniers away from my heels, but 45 cm ones do that for me.

I once rode a tandem solo in the snow and found it much easier to keep going straight.
So I'm thinking tracking is up and agility is down a bit with these, and I suspect it's not a really big deal.

I also suspect it's one of GP's tangents and he'll revert to shorter chainstays in a year or three. But I don't know that.

I thought the question was reasonable and clearly stated.

cheers -m

[John Hawrylak]

Bill

 

I would say “solve some objective problem not addressed by all other bikes or be an improvement by all other bikes”  regardless of the logical/philosophical issue of Rivendells existing or nor.

 

Also, I think most of us would agree “all other bikes” would the bikes you see in Trek store, a Fuji store, a Specialized store, a Crust website, a Walmart sporting goods section, etc.  I am not thinking about designs which may exist in the world where bikes are used in lieu of motorized vehicles and not just as a recreational diversion.

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[Eric Daume]

If you want Riv's explanation, it's here:

https://www.rivbike.com/pages/why-the-long-stays-chainstay-length

Eric

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[William Lindsay]

OK and these Treks and Fujis and Crusts don’t have to solve a problem because they conform with each other.  

OK, the objective problem with all those Treks Fujis and Crusts is none of those bikes ride like a bike with 50cm chain stays

You are welcome. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito Ca. 

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[John Hawrylak]

Eric

 

Thanks for the RBW explanation.  I vaguely remember it, but didn’t think he would increase then C/S so much

 

I see Grant’s point:  it’s more an improvement vs a problem solver. 

I see the ‘tall rider’ issue, longer seat tubes increase the saddle setback.  However, I’m 5’6” and my frames are all 21”, so I couldn’t even ride a 25”, let along know how the increased 3cm setback effects the rider

 

I see the weight distribution/stability effects.  

 

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

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[Jim M.]

Jones and Esker are 2 makers who are bringing long wb to market. I'm sure there are others. 

jim m

walnut creek, ca

  

[Kevin “Masmojo” Reinking]

Just my take after owning an XO-1 for 20+ years, a Toyo Atlantis, Rosco Bubbe, and a Clementine

The main benefit is a comfortable smooth ride. Climbing? It doesn't hurt any (especially offroad) and for inexperienced riders or people with poor climbing technique'

Speaking for myself, I am totally fine with longer chainstays or top tube (a centimeter or two), but much beyond that and the downsides outweigh the upsides for me. 

The extra weight, frame flex, slower handling of my Clementine didn't thrill me and ultimately were factors in why I sold it.

My Rivs have all been swapped out for Crusts and one SOMA.

It's OK though Rivendell has evolved and they serve a segment of the market that nobody else really caters to.

Cheers

[fiddl...@gmail.com]

Ribeye vs Burger: both get the same job done in different ways…neither is a bad way to go

[Ryan Ogilvie]

What are long chain stays in this metaphor? :-)

Sent from my mobile device. 

On Apr 2, 2024, at 11:26 PM, fiddl...@gmail.com <fiddl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ribeye vs Burger: both get the same job done in different ways…neither is a bad way to go

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[Steve]

How about "Spaghetti vs Macaroni" ?

[Brian Turner]

hot dogs vs. corn dogs

On Apr 3, 2024, at 8:54 AM, Steve <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:

How about "Spaghetti vs Macaroni" ?

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[Garth]

A ribeye and a burger denote variations of what object ?

beef

As long chainstays and shorter chainstays denote variations of what object ?

bike

These are distinctions, designations, identifiers of forms.

[ascpgh]

The U Factor

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

On Sunday, March 31, 2024 at 1:50:18 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ wrote:

[EGNolan]

The U Factor article explains the premise perfectly. The major change since that writing has been Riv having access to/getting longer and longer chainstays made. I'm glad they've pushed it to the point where we can see the actual downsides rather than just the theoretical: It's difficult in a city to fit some of the longer stay bikes on a bus, it's hard to get them up the stairs, etc., but those aren't constraints for many others and the upsides outweigh the down. I love my late 90's Riv Road with long stays for a road bike of the time, but short compared to a Clem or similar. I also love my Appaloosa (and my Cheviot before it) that has insanely long stays, but is comfortable, feels nimble and still allows me to ride all the trails I'd ride any rigid bike on. Ride all the bikes you can and love them for what they are (or not!).

Eric

[Victor Hanson]

None whatsoever.....

First you have to take into consideration the whole frame design!  Builders like Pino Moroni liked that the rear wheel did not move in fast skittish situations, especially downhill.  

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[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Andy

Thanks for posting the U Factor article.  It was good to read it and understand the thinking.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Thursday, April 4, 2024 at 8:49:10 AM UTC-4 ascpgh wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

Here's one benefit of very long chainstays: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xXRjXv_4v0

You couldn't do that on any of my road Rivs or my Sam.

Patrick Moore, who used to use his right foot to brake the 24" front wheel in 28"-wheel fork on his very first build when riding the fw bike without other brakes in heavy traffic and down steep, winding hills on traffic arteries.

[Jason Fuller]

The only valid way to answer this is to ride them and find out if you like it or not. There is no amount of talking about them on the internet that can answer the question. That said, I think it's intuitive that it will improve comfort even before swinging a leg over one for the same reason sitting in the middle of the bus is more comfortable than over the rear axle of the bus. At the same time, improving weight balance front to rear will benefit front wheel traction, and this is very relevant to Riv's focus on safe riding bikes. Not enough weight on the front tire is a recipe for the front wheel washing out.  I would also appreciate the ample heel clearance with panniers. 

I had the proto Charlie for a bit with 50cm chainstays and it rode nice, I saw no drawback to the long rear end, and it improved all the points noted above. I wouldn't want them for a bike that I sprint on, or ride really playfully like my Wombat, but love it for a touring or commuting bike. 

[Roy Summer]

Long chain stays usually mean a longer wheelbase which means a more comfortable ride because you’re not sitting on top of the rear wheel (think compact car vs. limo) and less climbing ability as the rider, again, is not sitting over the rear wheel. That said, use a lower gear to climb and don’t worry about being first in the mountain stages at the TDF. A longer wheelbase also generally results in a somewhat slower handling bike ( not that it is dangerous, just not twitchy) so leave the long chain stay ride home when you do your next crit.

[Dan]

Roy, I've found I have BETTER climbing ability on my Appaloosa with its super-long stays. If you stay seated your weight is rearward enough for traction, and thanks to the long stays the front end doesn't want to lift. That means you don't have to lean forward as much as you would on a regular-stayed bike which again improves traction on the rear end.

In practice, climbing steep dirt paths with the Appaloosa feels like I have a motor out back that pushes me up the hill. It's great!