Hot Waxing Chains

[Michael Hechmer]

Greetings, one and all.  It has been a long time, at least a few years, since my last post and I am just assuming my membership is still active.

At 75+, I still ride regularly, although not the distances I used to.  I live in a small town in far northern VT, which has mostly dirt roads. I just ride; I don't desire new stuff nor do anything heroic worth writing about.  I have a Ramboulliet, a Trek 620, An early Saluki (my goto ride), and a custom Bilenky touring tandem.  My wife rides a Betty Foy and my daughter a Cheviot.   All but the Trek have fenders but that's still a lot of chains out on dirty roads and a lot of messy time cleaning them.

Can you teach an old dog new tricks?  Well maybe.   I clean the chains, rings and cogs with mineral spirits and citrosol.  I use a standard oil lube and wipe them down as best I can.  The process of wiping down the chains inevitably contaminates the rings and cogs with oil and the first ride bleeds oil from the inside to the outside of the chain.  The oil collects dirt, which wears down rings and cogs.  (I just ordered three new rings today, so I'm focused).  Every time I go through this process of cleaning 9 chains, I watch a youtube video on chain waxing but get put off by the initial effort and purchase of a crock pot, ultrasonic cleaner, etc; and wonder if it would really improve this process ; keep the chain cleaner and reduce wear?

Your experience, appreciated.

Michael

[Patrick Moore]

https://moltenspeedwax.com

I ride in very fine silty sand and find that waxed chains pick up almost no dirt. I use this stuff in a small crockpot and a with a masterlink and find it easy and fast apart from waiting for the wax to melt and ensuring that the chain soaks in the liquid wax for 15 minutes or so. I don't bother to agitate, and my crockpot os small enough that I need only 1/4 lb or so which lasts many treatments if you start the first with a clean chain -- subsequent ones require no cleaning before treatment.   I get ~ 150 miles for dusty dirt, 400 miles + (500 miles on the last bike) on pavement, twice the miles or more compared to plain paraffin.

Coil chain to insert, remove with wire hook and long arm, wipe dry, hang to cool before installing. The chain will be stiff at first but will shed no flakes of dry wax.

Small crockpots are $2.99 at Goodwill.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Patrick Moore]

Note that I ride where the average annual rainfall is about 9"; I expect the stuff would work less well in Seattle.

[dougP]

Michael:

I find that waxing leaves the chain clean so that it doesn't attract dirt.  Even riding off-road it can be simply wiped down.  However, I've also done some touring in wet climates & need to take along a conventional chain lube as the wax doesn't hold up well in a wet climate.  It is a hassle to go thru the process, and 9 chains would take a lot of time.  My wife & I only one bike each to doing a few times a year is not a big chore for me.  Some time ago, she picked up a fondue pot at a garage sale or something, cheap, and it's perfect for one chain at a time.  I just use ordinary canning wax (paraffin?), nothing biking specific. 

I understand there are also liquid wax chain products but have never tried them.  It may be an option for you to consider.

dougP

[Benjamin L. Kelley]

I gave hot waxing a go last year. It worked, but not better than other "dry" lubes, and was more hassle I found. I tried Finish Line's dry lube and found it to be as dirty as regular wet lubes and didn't last very long.

I ended up back with Squirt. It's as clean as hot waxing as far as attracting grit and grime. Lasts a good while, as long as hot wax it seems. It is wax in a water based emulsion so goes on easily.  They have a regular and a low temp version.

--ben

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[Patrick Moore]

Note that Molten Speed Wax works much better than mere paraffin, despite it's silly name.

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 5:51 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

[eddietheflay]

i waxed for about 3 years. it was sorta fun to have a new hobby to go along with simply riding the bike. waxing is a hobby. it works fine but the question is does is how long does a waxing last? do you have to do it 2x as often as cleaning and relube with a great normal lube product. i think the answers are it does not last as long and it is no better than normal lube = NFS for me.

when i waxed i mostly followed these procedures and actually purchased the additional chemicals mentioned in this write-up. i love a clean well lubed chain and NFS seems like great stuff to me. yes a little dirtier maybe than wax but that means you clean it when it's ready to be cleaned:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tech-news-friction-facts-releases-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 4:18:22 PM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:

[Lefebeaver]

I'm a wax convert - it started years ago when I was recovering from a back injury and commuting on a recumbent, with yards of chain that kept finding a way to stain my legs, my yellow riding jacket, and anything else that got within a block of it. I read that waxing was the lowest friction, longest life option for a chain, and since replacing all that chain was expensive, wax appealed to me. Now I wax the chain on the recumbent as well as my daily rider Atlantis and my mountain bike, and except on a long tour away from home I would never consider using anything else. I recently modified my wax recipe to add a toilet seal wax ring (a couple bucks - new!) for its much softer composition, so now I'm probably running a half and half mixture of Gulf wax and toilet wax. I'm finding the wax is lasting much longer this way before the chain starts chirping, but I've never monitored mileage very diligently - I wax when it squeaks, or if it's been awhile and I'm planning a long ride. I find waxing to be the lowest effort and least messy method of any I've tried in my 5+ decades of regular riding - no cleaning needed, no rags or gloves, never any black stains on hands, clothes etc. from the chain. With a quick link in the chain and a tool for dealing with that, it's very little work and leaves no mess.  - Paul

[RichS]

Michael,

It’s good to see you back! Always liked reading your posts. Glad you’re doing well and out there riding. My experience with cleaning/lubing chains and the resulting contamination mirrors yours. Happy I only have three chains to clean:-)

The waxing vs. conventional lubing topic comes up periodically. I like tinkering with my bikes so am tempted to try the wax method. I’m staying tuned.

Best,
Rich in ATL

[Bill Eberle in Portland OR]

The toilet seal ring thing seems like a great idea. How about Johnson's Wax? It's about the same color, maybe even softer, and your chain would really shine after a wipedown. Anybody tried it?

[Deacon Patrick]

On the opposite side of the spectrum from wax, I use chain saw oil. One drop per link, whenever the chain begins to talk. I worry not one whit about cleaning it. Works great in all environs, all year long.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Michael Hechmer]

Deacon, how good to connect with you again, even when I think you are wrong!  At one level you are right.  If we are discussing energy lost to friction in the drivetrain then nothing makes a difference, wax, chain oil, heavy or light oil or even no lube at all.  Under all conditions the energy loss is vanishingly small.   But that's not the issue.   The purpose of any lube is either to fill the space between two metal parts and thereby prevent dirt from entering and prematurely wearing those parts out, and/ or the lubricant can flush out microscopic metal particles which also abrade the surface.  That's why you put a lubricant on a stone before sharpening a blade - to flush out metal bits, same as  in a car's crank case.  The real benefit comes not from the lube per say but from keeping the chain clean.  A dirty chain not only wears itself out much faster but wears out the rings and cogs.  In a sterile environment a steel roller bearing (AKA a chain roller) can move over a piece of 7075 Al.  for most of a human lifetime w/out wearing it out.  Introduce grit and both the gullet and sidewalls will be worn away quickly. 

So the real issue is, how much of my life do I want to give up trying to extend the life of chainrings?  And which process will optimize the tradeoff?  That's probably a different answer for every rider.  I'm tired of the answer I've been giving to that question and am looking for a better deal, a clean chain with less work.

Here's a research report you might enjoy. https://pages.jh.edu/news_info/news/home99/aug99/bike.html

blessings,

michael

[Deacon Patrick]

Good to connect with you too, Michael, even when you are wrong about thinking I am wrong. Grin. I agree, my method increases part wear, and I agree the question we each are answering in our own way, as you well express, is: "how much of my life do I want to give up trying to extend the life of chainrings?"

For my riding, oft in sloppy environs of one type or another, with stunningly abrasive, sharp, decomposed granite grit, large and small, I either put in a lot of work and still have a fiar bit of wear, or I simply ensure the bits keep working, as you describe, replaice chains more often, and figure I lose a year or so of drivetrain life, but save a year or so of my life keeping it clean. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[dougP]

"So the real issue is, how much of my life do I want to give up trying to extend the life of chainrings?

Michael:

You've hit on the core question.  There are so many different situations that it's hard to generalize.  There is no optimal solution for all conditions.  The questions for each of us should be:

1.  How long do I expect drivetrain parts to last?  If you ride 2,000 miles per year, and get a year out of a chain & cassette, and a couple of years out of chainrings, then you may want to be more diligent about cleaning & lubrication, esp. if it's a big hit money-wise.  OTH, if you get many years out of your drive train and / or the financial incentive is low, you can be more casual.  The occasional spritz with whatever your LBS is selling will work.

2.  How much trouble & effort do I want to expend on this to optimize drive train life?  If it's a satisfying chore you don't mind doing, then some combo of thorough cleaning & careful lubrication is for you.  Everyone needs a hobby.  OTH, if the whole thing is a huge PITA that you put off doing, then the casual spritz works.

 Related considerations: 

3.   Cost of components:  7-8-9 speed cassettes are under $30; chains under $20.  Decent chainrings are $25.  What's the real value of trying to squeeze a bit of extra life out these?  Are you a student on a tight budget or retired with plenty of cash?  OTH, if you're into the latest drivetrain components such as 11 & 12 speed, now you're looking at a whole lot more money. 

4.  Riding mileage: Does each bike get perhaps 1,000 miles per year or 10,000 miles?  Lower mileage suggests more casual care may work.  Higher mileage requires more effort (either time or money) to keep things ticking over properly. 

5.  Climate: If you're in a dry, clean climate, you get more miles out of a lube job.  However, wet and / or dusty or dirty environments are tough on chains et al.  E..g., I'm in a warm, dry, dust free climate.  What works in my climate would be a disaster for me in Deacon Patrick's climate.  Wax doesn't like wet conditions. 

Hope this helps the evaluation process. 

dougP

[Michael Hechmer]

What an interesting conversation!  I had no idea when I originally asked.  Now I see that what Deacon does works for Deacon and what Doug, or Patrick, or Rich, or...... anyone else does probably works for them and not just because of physics but because of lifestyle and personality.

I have three hobbies - hand tool woodworking, bike riding, and tending a small garden.  All three of them have in common that they use tools as an extension of my body and soul.  It's important to me that the tools work seamlessly with my body.  My woodworking tool collection includes some that are a hundred years old, some that are forty and some that are brand new, but each one is a joy to hold and use.  I maintain them meticulously.  Same goes for my bicycles.  I want it to run quietly, respond predictably and shift perfectly, every time. That's why I ride Rivendells.  I run  a 9 speed friction set up and find this works great if I start with high quality parts and keep them in good condition.  I'm also constitutionally opposed to a throw away world.  (I once brought a twenty five year old microwave into a repair shop, only to be greeted with gales of laughter)  I recently brought  a Milwaukee drill into a shop to get the switch replaced.  The service man took one look at it and said, "You've had this awhile haven't you."  and I thought OMG, I've become my father!  I run ultegra cassettes, connex chains and Sugino's best rings,  White's or TAs.  Letting them wear out prematurely is not a good option.

I appreciate all the feedback.  Thank you all.  I think I'm going to give Squirt a try.  I've been looking at sonic cleaners on line.  Everyone I looked at in the $75 range seemed to have about a 15% early failure rate.  The Molten site sells one for $139 plus up to $25 for shipping.  Ouch.  Maybe I'll give more traditional cleaning methods a deeper try as a prep for wax.

Doug reminds me that on a sticky hot day,  going down into the cool of the basement and cleaning bike parts isn't all bad.

Michael

[tuolumne bikes]

For cleaning, I mostly hose off the drivetrain after a dusty ride, bounce the bike a few times and dry in the sun, and then wipe down the chain. Sometimes I over lube and wipe.

When it's time to do a rare major cleaning, the chain goes in an old wide mouth nalgene with Dawn dish soap and boiling water. I wrap an old bath towel around it and shake the hell out of it. The towel is absolutely mandatory for opening the nalgene since it usually spurts like a hot radiator. It takes a couple wash and rinse cycles. Hang to dry before installing and lubing. Nalgene was (and still is) a lab equipment company before it became an outdoor brand; their hard bottles handle boiling water without issues.

There's a theory that this kind of cleaning removes lube from deep inside the chain and that relubing the chain can't penetrate to replace it. I figure if hot water and detergent got in there, then super slippery chain lube probably can too. I over lube and wipe.

The notion that chains need to be really really clean is silly to me given how much work that would take. I run 3 x 6/7/8 speeds, so chains are cheap, and steel is recyclable. I also really like steel chainrings. Old Sugino VP cranks from MTBeaters often have great steel 110/74 BCD rings. What a sensible place to add weight to your bike.

Carl

[Garth]

  Having done hot wax, Squirt(water based) and Clean Ride(petrol based) bottled waxes ... it always bugged me that I had to remove the factory lube in order to use the wax. I still had to clean the chain, sigh. I never want to clean another chain in my life, ever, period !  I thought about when I was a teen, what lube did I use back then ? Whatever oil my Dad has in his squirt can(which is very cool and I still have today) I suppose. Did I ever clean chains ? Nope . Did the parts ever wear out, make noises or any of that ? Hmm . Sometime later, I must have read in a bike forum about using air tool oil for a chain lube and how it didn't attract dirt. It's not expensive either, Harbor Freight's 16 oz. bottle is $4. Okay, I'm in !  I also switched to KMC chains, the x.9.93 for my Bombadil that I had a new drivetrain for. The KMC factory lube is quite excellent, I must have gotten 250+ miles(wipe the chain periodically) on it before relubing with air tool oil. No chain cleaning, only wiping the chain really good, then apply one drop per link at a time. Wipe off excess, let it sit overnight then wipe good again the next day. To really get the excess off it helps to spin the drivetrain good, either in a stand or just lift the rear wheel. This minimizes any spray on the rims, but I still get some the first ride as frankly it doesn't bother me.  I have no idea what's in AT oil or why or how, but it doesn't collect dust and dirt, at least where I ride. I wipe off after every ride or 2, say 25-50 miles. Reapplications are maybe every 250 miles or so, I think as that's a guesstimate. After over 1000k miles all is well, the chain still checks Yay and no signs of other wear. I'm happy with it !  So Michael if you want to be free of chain cleaning altogether give AT oil a try, at least on one bike as an experiment for yourself and see it how it goes.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it  ... hee hee hee.

[Patrick Moore]

Michael: FWIW, you don't need ultrasonic cleaning for Molten Wax success; just do an initial bath in mineral spirits with brush, and wash in hot water with detergent, rinse, and let dry.

I find your attitude towards tools and instruments very interesting and appealing; that is how I look at my bikes, and one reason I am so particular about how they are set up.

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[Patrick Moore]

I should be clear: For success with MSW, clean the chain thoroughly for the first application; thereafter, no need to clean, just dunk it in and let soak.

[Robert Tilley]

I have recently switched over to NFS lube after years of using Boeshield. I am finding that the NFS lasts much longer and needs to be reapplied less frequently. It also keeps the drivetrain very quiet and the chain stays clean. I was skeptical that 12 drops world be enough to work but it does.

http://nixfrixshun.com/nixfrixshun-ultimate-bicycle-chainlube/

I have tried most of the dry lubes out there and always found that the wax they use collected on the cogs and I would periodically need to remove the cassette and give it a good cleaning. I have always been curious about doing a proper wax job on my chains and may do it at some point but NFS works so well for me I don't have the motivation to try right now.

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

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From: mhec...@gmail.com Sent: May 28, 2020 4:18 PM To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com Reply-to: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com Subject: [RBW] Hot Waxing Chains

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[Patrick Moore]

If others can compare NFS with Molten Speed Wax on sandy terrain from personal experience, I'd very much like to hear from them.

Patrick Moore, who is nonetheless pretty happy with MSW.

[Michael Hechmer]

Never heard of it, but they certainly make extravagant claims!   The idea of only using 12 drops for an entire chain and then letting the cogs redistribute sounds interesting and should result in less lube leaking to the sides of the chain, where in attracts dirt.  But doesn't the cog then spread the lube back to the chain sides?

Michael

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[Robert Tilley]

I believe they state that you should wipe down your chain after every ride which would keep the chain cleaner. I never do that and only wipe down the chain when I re-lube the chain. I just checked the chains on a couple of bikes that haven't been re-lubed in a while and the chains are still pretty clean.

Another good thing about NFS is that one bottle will last a long time. 12 drops per chain uses far less than the one drop every link I used with Boeshield.

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

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From: mhec...@gmail.com Sent: May 31, 2020 4:45 AM To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com Reply-to: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [RBW] Hot Waxing Chains

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[Michael Hechmer]

So.... I bought a bottle of NFS (Nixfrikshun) for my trust Saluki, now dressed up in brandy new TA rings.  I followed the instructions to put a drop on 12 links and spin the chain backwards 12 times.  There was no sign of any lube on the big ring, so I added 4 more drops and spun 12 times.  Still no sign of any lube.  Added 4 more drops & spun.  No sign of any lube, but this time I lightly rubbed a finger across the chain and could feel just the thinnest film of oil.  Went out for an hours ride on dirt roads.  The bike ran quietly, or as quietly as tires can roll over loose dirt, shifted flawlessly; certainly no chain squeak. Returning I checked the rings & chain and saw a small amount of lube on the rings.  No visible dirt.  Wiped the chain and the big ring down.  

I'm definitely impressed and thanks to Robert Tilley for the suggestion.

Michael

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[John Bokman]

I also have been very impressed with NFS. I used to use boeshield, and triflow, and finishline....Where I live in Oregon it is wet 8 months a year. I commute daily, and oil gunking up the drivetrain can be a real mess. So I tried the NFS simply to keep everything cleaner. It has been the cleanest I've used,  and also longest lasting.

[Deacon Patrick]

Inspired by this thread, I will see if chainsaw oil applied so sparingly but not wiped off accomplishes much the same thing. Still working through me huge pint I bout a few years ago. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

One more satisfied customer, I guess! NFS is the one lube that from reports I would consider using in place of Molten Speed Wax. Must get around to buying some.

Question to you sandy/dusty/silty surface riders: I'd be interested to hear how NFS performs in dry conditions of this sort. I'm talking about the sort of surfaces where even a single 10 mile ride will coat everything from top tube to drivetrain and disc calipers in a thick coating of dust. (Dust is the principal reason for using fenders on my Matthews; doesn't keep all the dust off, but it certainly lessens the amount on things above the knee.)

Also, for longer-term users: Did Michael overdo the application? Do you really need to put a drop on only 12 links out of N?

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 2:10 PM Michael Hechmer <mhec...@gmail.com> wrote:

So.... I bought a bottle of NFS (Nixfrikshun) for my trust Saluki, now dressed up in brandy new TA rings.  I followed the instructions to put a drop on 12 links and spin the chain backwards 12 times.  There was no sign of any lube on the big ring, so I added 4 more drops and spun 12 times.  Still no sign of any lube.  Added 4 more drops & spun.  No sign of any lube, but this time I lightly rubbed a finger across the chain and could feel just the thinnest film of oil.  Went out for an hours ride on dirt roads.  The bike ran quietly, or as quietly as tires can roll over loose dirt, shifted flawlessly; certainly no chain squeak. Returning I checked the rings & chain and saw a small amount of lube on the rings.  No visible dirt.  Wiped the chain and the big ring down.  

I'm definitely impressed and thanks to Robert Tilley for the suggestion.

[john Bokman]

I just use 8 drops and I’m good to go!

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[Michael Hechmer]

Deacon, do you actually own chain saw?  I owned a chain saw for many years, decades actually.  Then one day I looked down and noticed that I still had to legs and two hands and decided I would sell my chainsaw while I was ahead.  I still own many dangerous tools, including a 3HP table saw, a tool which maims an American every seven minutes, but a chain saw, no thank you.

Michael

[Michael Hechmer]

Patrick, in hind sight I suspect I did overdue it, out of insecurity.  Like Moses who insisted on striking the rock twice.

Michael

[Deacon Patrick]

Michael,

I sold the chain saw after me bludgeoned brain. I can't be near the loud motor. I use a Silky saw now. the 14" blade goes through stunningly thick downed trees for quick(ish) human powered trail work.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Robert Tilley]

I find that the 12 drops works for me. It ends up coating the chain with a bit getting on the cogs and rings,

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

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From: bert...@gmail.com Sent: June 5, 2020 3:07 PM To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com Reply-to: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [RBW] Hot Waxing Chains

One more satisfied customer, I guess! NFS is the one lube that from reports I would consider using in place of Molten Speed Wax. Must get around to buying some.

Question to you sandy/dusty/silty surface riders: I'd be interested to hear how NFS performs in dry conditions of this sort. I'm talking about the sort of surfaces where even a single 10 mile ride will coat everything from top tube to drivetrain and disc calipers in a thick coating of dust. (Dust is the principal reason for using fenders on my Matthews; doesn't keep all the dust off, but it certainly lessens the amount on things above the knee.)

Also, for longer-term users: Did Michael overdo the application? Do you really need to put a drop on only 12 links out of N?

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 2:10 PM Michael Hechmer <mhec...@gmail.com> wrote:

So.... I bought a bottle of NFS (Nixfrikshun) for my trust Saluki, now dressed up in brandy new TA rings.  I followed the instructions to put a drop on 12 links and spin the chain backwards 12 times.  There was no sign of any lube on the big ring, so I added 4 more drops and spun 12 times.  Still no sign of any lube.  Added 4 more drops & spun.  No sign of any lube, but this time I lightly rubbed a finger across the chain and could feel just the thinnest film of oil.  Went out for an hours ride on dirt roads.  The bike ran quietly, or as quietly as tires can roll over loose dirt, shifted flawlessly; certainly no chain squeak. Returning I checked the rings & chain and saw a small amount of lube on the rings.  No visible dirt.  Wiped the chain and the big ring down.  

I'm definitely impressed and thanks to Robert Tilley for the suggestion.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[Michael Hechmer]

Deacon, sorry to read this, but glad you have found a way to deal with it.  

Be well.

Michael

[Bill Schairer]

What I’m curious about is what results one with get with other lubes applied in the same manner as NSF. Can’t wait for your report, Patrick. Of course I can always try myself. Count me skeptical of any magic in NSF but I am intrigued.

Bill S

[eddietheflay]

it is kinda of interesting the high percentage of relatively high praise for NFS. i like it a lot but can't quantify why. it just seems to work really well.

[Steven Sweedler]

For me the 12 drops part is big, and that  it last longer and is cleaner, I’m a fan.   Steve

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[Deacon Patrick]

Bill et al, Yesterday's rain led to today's chain (saw) lube. Having only one application previously of chain saw oil, it is still fairly clean, and had begun to make a bit of noise and skip a bit in the wee cogs. I shifted to the smallest cog, applied a drop every 12 links, backpedaled twelve rotations and rode off. Silent and smooth chain instantly. For reference, see the photo. Question remaining: longevity of application? I generally get 1-2 weeks between applications, applying only when the chain "asks" for it. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Michael Hechmer]

So.  To come back to this.  I ordered a bottle of Nix Frix Shun NFX, and have been using it on my two bikes, my wife's bike and our tandem this summer.  The results have been excellent.  I don't know how much is this particular lube or is application method, including wiping the outside  chain after every ride; but I'm sold.  We ride predominantly on dirt roads and gravel bike paths and my chains have remained clean and quiet since late May.  Actually, I found after three or four rides I really didn't need to wipe the chain.  A big thank you to the people who recommended it.

Michael

[Jeff B]

Not to talk off the topic of chain lubing but, Patrick your rear derailleur cable is wrapped under the kickstand plate. Not sure if it makes any difference to you but it could lead to the cable breaking prematurely or the rear Der being perpetually out of adjustment. Is there room for the cable to ride smoothly next to the plate or is a that a GUS quirk?

[Michael Hechmer]

Alternately, you might consider a length of housing, as is common under BB shells.

Michael

[Lyman Labry]

This is interesting thread.  My new riv bike received May 5th must have some type of wax treatment on it.  I’ve ridden it daily and drivetrain still looks clean. Do you know who riv folks use on their bikes?  Also, wondering what they clean drivetrain with before treating.  Thanks!

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[James Valiensi]

This thread title sounds like a name for a topless bar…

Use oil on your chain. Chain-L will last 10K miles.

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[Deacon Patrick]

Put on NFS for the first time today. 12 drops on my loooong 1x9 Gus's chain, in high gear (small cog), back spun 12 times, no wipe. It shifted wonderfully smooth. I'll see how long it goes before asking for more and how it handles mud and frozen slop; however, so far I'm impressed.

With abandon,

Patrick

[☆ Paul ☆]

Has anyone ever tried cleaning their chain and NEVER applying lube at ALL?

This may be an absolutely idiotic question, but there are all kinds of posts all over the web about people who think lube is a scam, but I can't find anyone that has actually tested the theory with a top-quality chain.

I've ridden belt drive bikes exclusively for the last 12 years, until I bought an Atlantis recently and my life changed. The one nice thing about belts is you just hose off the bike now and then.

Paul

[Patrick Moore]

I've never tried it, but I seem to recall a lab test of bicycle chains lubricated with different substances, and the researchers finding that a perfectly dry but clean chain performed as well as a clean, well-lubed chain. Can anyone recall this study and the report?

Patrick Moore, who remembers Grant speculating long, long ago about using olive oil on chains.

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 2:17 PM ☆ Paul ☆ <pa...@superplastic.co> wrote:

Has anyone ever tried cleaning their chain and NEVER applying lube at ALL?

This may be an absolutely idiotic question, but there are all kinds of posts all over the web about people who think lube is a scam, but I can't find anyone that has actually tested the theory with a top-quality chain.

I've ridden belt drive bikes exclusively for the last 12 years, until I bought an Atlantis recently and my life changed. The one nice thing about belts is you just hose off the bike now and then.

Paul

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Bill Eberle in Portland OR]

Rohloff® Special Bike Chain Lubricant claims to be "rapidly biodegradable". It says so on the bottle. I've always suspected it's some sort of vegetable oil, maybe even olive oil. I use it on my Wipperman chain, but not on my salad. It works as well or better than other stuff I've tried over many years and cleans up more easily than petroleum based lubes. I use Chain Drain Bean Clean for that.

Bill in PDX

[stanw...@bellsouth.net]

I suspect I'll get a lot of grief for this...

For many years I've been using WD-40 on our bicycle chains.  I spray it on while spinning the chain, let it set for a half hour or so and wipe the excess off with a paper shop towel. 

I first started using WD on the O-ring drive chains on our Ducati motorcycles.  We had been riding BMW shaft drive bikes for years and I wasn't sure what to do with lubing motorcycle chains.  The fellow who was president of the local Ducati club, who had a LOT of bikes, suggested WD-40.

In 1986 he had purchased a new Suzuki GSXR750, a pretty powerful bike at the time, and decided to experiment with WD-40 as a chain lube.  He would apply the WD at the end of a ride.

We bought the Ducs and met Jim around 2000.  He was running the original chain on the Gixxer then, so I figured I'd give it a shot.  I did that for our road bikes and my track bike as well.  Never had any problems and had normal service life from the chains.  I figured that it was good enough for drive chains on eighty or so hp motorcycles that were frequently ridden in the rain, it was good enough for our bicycles.  I suspect the trick with drive chains, whether on bicycles, motorcycles or a manure spreaders is keeping the chain clean. 

I'm not advocating or recommending.  I'm merely sharing my experience.

Stan

[Garth]

WD-40 is just fine by me Stan !  It's the original "clean and lube in one" concept that other brands have tried to copy or improve on. 

[Ted Durant]

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 6:18:22 PM UTC-5 mhec...@gmail.com wrote:

Your experience, appreciated.

And lots of experience posted from all over! I gave wax a try for a couple of years, but it never made it through winters very well here (salty slush on the roads is a nightmare for chains and gears). To be fair, I didn't have a good, dedicated pot for heating the wax. I now have a caddy loaded with pretty much all the commercial concoctions aimed at bike chains from Dry to Epic conditions. Every one of them promise to be clean and long lasting, and none of them deliver on it. I have not yet tried NFS.

A couple of people have given the thumbs up to WD-40. I agree, it's tough to beat WD-40 for cleaning and a quick lube. If you want it to last the duration of a 200km or longer brevet, especially a wet one, well, that's not going to happen. I saw an article somewhere, as I was noodling on this issue, that showed WD-40 is the best lube and also is the shortest-lasting. Chain saw oil, which you can also find packaged as Phil (Wood) Tenacious Oil, is quite long lasting, quite messy, and higher friction. Higher is relative - as the Spicer research notes, friction losses are tiny.

In the course of my experimentation, I spied the old bottle of 3-in-One on my shelf and thought, "huh, why not?" It even says right on the front that it's great for bicycle chains. I've been using it for a few years now and am very happy with it. I can easily go a few hundred miles without care. I haven't had to ride a brevet in the rain with it, but I've had some wet rides and it lasts pretty well. In the winter, as with any lube, I have to clean, dry, and re-lube after every ride if the roads are wet and salty. Between lubes, an occasional wipe with a rag sprayed with WD-40 keeps the outside clean. Cleaning (more WD-40 and a rag) and relubing takes about 15 minutes if I'm being slow. I also like to keep my derailer pulleys and cogs clean (more WD-40) at the same time.

One part of this topic I haven't seen discussed, but I think is crucial, is how the lube is applied. Waxing techniques are their own thing. Applying wet lubes, the biggest game changer for me was putting the 3-in-One into an old valve oil bottle with a needle applicator (from my other hobby, playing horn). The needle applicator allows for precise delivery of a small drop on each link - no more flooding the chain and spending another hour trying to get rid of the excess. My new bottle of 3-in-One appears to be a lifetime supply at this rate. And, the little bottle with the needle rides easily in my handlebar bag for a long ride.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[Garth]

I remember seeing this guy from GCN who uses WD-40 as both lube and degreaser on all his road, mtb and cross bikes all year in the UK, with up to 5 hour rides in all conditions. He's not endorsed to use it either. He calls himself a "lazy bike rider looking for a cheap trick". My kinda rider ! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvzVRxlIUL0

[Corwin]

Hi Paul -

If you want to find out about riding a chain with no lube - look to Paul Price of Paul Components. He is notorious for riding his bikes without maintaining them to see how long it takes parts to fail.

Namaste,

Corwin

[☆ Paul ☆]

Hi Corwin

I'm going to try to find a link to that. Or just write Paul, he's pretty responsive. :)

Never using lube would be the holy grail for me. I hate the gunk.

[Whatcha Oughtter]

Does anyone know what’s on chains when they are new out of the box? It always seems sticky but doesn’t seem to attract too much dirt, is really smooth and quiet and lasts a long time. After the factory lube is gone I use tri-flow with pretty good results. I used motorcycle chain lube for a while that sprayed on thin and penetrated into the nooks and crannies but dried out thick like a grease. It attracted all kinds of grit and wore out a chain in very short order. -John

[John Hawrylak]

John

Don't know what the OEMs use ot how the apply it, but agree it's last for about 500M.  

Does TriFlow attract dirt???

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[☆ Paul ☆]

Hello Everyone. 

I contacted Adam Kerin a few weeks back, who runs Zero Friction. (http://www.zerofrictioncycling.com.au). His website's mission is to get the lowest friction possible on bicycle chains for bike racing. While that's the antithesis to Rivendell, I asked him about the cleanest chain lube that doesn't involve waxing, since one side effect of low friction is lubes are many are very clean. He wrote a REALLY LONG response, the upshot being he likes SMOOV lube. I ordered some and it arrived yesterday!

Adam's recommendation was to wax once, then use Smoov after. Waxing is a lot of work, so as an experiment yesterday I just cleaned the hell out of one of my chains by sticking it in a big plastic bottle, covering it with chain degreaser, and shaking it (Sheldon Brown method). Then went over it a second time with a brush and did the same with my drivetrain. Still a little grease in the joints of the chain, but shiny clean and not sticky for the most part . I'm going to try Smoov today and will report back.

Adam also sells pre-waxed and pre-cleaned chains.

Here's Adam's long response for those of you who want to read it:

"Waxing is by far and way the best but outright treatment if longevity is not its main brief and if push re-wax treatments then past about 300km the chain will feel and sound very dry and friction and wear ramps up, and popping them off for a re-wax all the time may not be feasible for your operation.

The best combo is likely to be an initial remove chain and strip clean factory grease as per instructions in my wax zen master guide ( factory grease needs to come off anyway), and initially wax with msw. Then after bikes have done about 200kms move to smoove. Smoove is a very cheap but very long lasting per application lube with excellent low wear and contamination resistance. A bottle is $25 and lasts a long time – you only apply 2 to 3ml per re lube and a re-lube will last about 800km. Re-lube technique with smoove is important however, lube needs to be warm (and preferably chain as well but it will be ok if not - its just better if it is), work in thoroughly by backpedalling about 30 times, then WIPE OFF EXCESS THROUGLY, and allow overnight set. Doing this smoove stays very clean and not gunky for a good stretch, however every approx. 3000km a clean and start over is great if you can.

Many use msw start then smoove for cycling holidays, cross continent races etc – it is a great combo – msw negates smooves initial penetration issues.

Have a look at waxing zen master guide and smoove advanced application guide – may seem a bit but in reality its easy, and it will help kids learn some great skills, and it will deliver the level of low maintenance, low friction and very cheap lubricant running costs you are looking for.
(only issues is both myself and importer are currently out of smoove, but more in stock soon… ish…..)

IF one slathers smoove on and doesn’t wipe excess then you will gunk things up, but if you apply as per instructions you leave a high performing lubricant INSIDE the chain where it is needed, not outside to gather airborne dust and contamination and so the outside stays impressively clean for an impressive period. With traditional oils / wet lubes ever single particle of airborne dust (of which there is a lot, just shine a bright torch into the air at night) will stick on contact which is why they go downhill very quickly re mess, friction and wear. Don’t even get me started on white lightning lubes, they are up there as the worst in the industry. You could walk into your pantry right now and randomly mix together anything you have in there that is liquid, and you will make a better lube than any white lightning product.

Smoove sets to a semi solid plastic state so it is very contamination resistant and so wont be phased much by puddles and general airborne contamination. If they don’t clock up many miles, you will get a very long run out of the msw the smoove lubed chains indeed."


Hope this helps, I'll report back. 

I may buy one of his cleaned chains and try that out if this doesn't work!


Paul

[Patrick Moore]

Paul: Please do report back. I ride in sandy conditions, and used paraffin wax for years, then a few years ago switched to Molten Speed Wax, which very definitely lasts longer, but still only a short while before the chains get noisy. I have no scientific evidence that chain noise means more wear, but I still use it as a signal to re-lube. I now get about 200 miles of pavement riding from a chain job compared to 100 from grocery store paraffin.

If the Smoov product lasts much longer at the expense of a bit of wiping, and if it doesn't attract grit even when riding in sandy conditions, I will be very interested.

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[Whatcha Oughtter]

Tri-flow doesn’t doesn’t attract the dirt but it has Teflon, which is probably good for lubrication, but there’s been some health concerns lately, although on non-stick cooking surfaces- I don’t plan on eating off my bike chain! -John

On Aug 5, 2020, at 7:57 PM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Andrew Schlukebier]

I ride 9-12 miles most days when it’s not raining. 1-2 times per week I wipe the chain with a washcloth while spinning it, then put on ProGold ProLink while spinning, then wipe again with the washcloth. Takes 2 minutes or so, and seems to leave the chain fairly clean and slightly lubed.

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 7:18:22 PM UTC-4, Michael Hechmer wrote:

Greetings, one and all.  It has been a long time, at least a few years, since my last post and I am just assuming my membership is still active.

At 75+, I still ride regularly, although not the distances I used to.  I live in a small town in far northern VT, which has mostly dirt roads. I just ride; I don't desire new stuff nor do anything heroic worth writing about.  I have a Rambouillet, a Trek 620, An early Saluki (my goto ride), and a custom Bilenky touring tandem.  My wife rides a Betty Foy and my daughter a Cheviot.   All but the Trek have fenders but that's still a lot of chains out on dirty roads and a lot of messy time cleaning them.

Can you teach an old dog new tricks?  Well maybe.   I clean the chains, rings and cogs with mineral spirits and citrosol.  I use a standard oil lube and wipe them down as best I can.  The process of wiping down the chains inevitably contaminates the rings and cogs with oil and the first ride bleeds oil from the inside to the outside of the chain.  The oil collects dirt, which wears down rings and cogs.  (I just ordered th so I'm focused).  Every time I go through this process of cleaning 9 chains, I watch a youtube video on chain waxing but get put off by the initial effort and purchase of a crock pot, ultrasonic cleaner, etc; and wonder if it would really improve this process ; keep the chain cleaner and reduce wear?

Your experience, appreciated.

Michael

[☆ Paul ☆]

Hello All

*** UPDATE on my lube experiment. **

Here's what I did:

1) Took both cassette and chain off the Atlantis. 

2) Put the chain in a big plastic screw top bottle without 2 inches of degreaser for a few hours, and shook it up now and then. Then drained, rinsed, and went over it with a toothbrush for a few minutes afterwords until it was shiny clean. Cleaned the cassette by hand until it looked the same.

3) Mounted everything back on the bike and applied Smoov lube, which was recommended to me by Adam at Zero Friction. He said the key is to drip it on, then wipe off the excess with a cloth while spinning the chain backwards, so I dd that. Let it dry for a few hours. 

The lube looks white and waxy, though you don't see much of it except in the joints of the chain after wiping down.

I've put about 150 miles on the bike so far, including pretty dirty fire trails with puddles of mud, and after hosing the bike down the chain still remains shiny and clean. Pretty amazing. You're supposed to reapply the lube regularly, and I'll do that again soon. Still figuring out how often I need to do that.

So far I'm super-impressed. No black chain, no black cassette. Chain quiet and drivetrain happy. And the lube was only $25.

Best,

Paul

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 7:18:22 PM UTC-4, Michael Hechmer wrote:

Greetings, one and all.  It has been a long time, at least a few years, since my last post and I am just assuming my membership is still active.

At 75+, I still ride regularly, although not the distances I used to.  I live in a small town in far northern VT, which has mostly dirt roads. I just ride; I don't desire new stuff nor do anything heroic worth writing about.  I have a Ramboulliet, a Trek 620, An early Saluki (my goto ride), and a custom Bilenky touring tandem.  My wife rides a Betty Foy and my daughter a Cheviot.   All but the Trek have fenders but that's still a lot of chains out on dirty roads and a lot of messy time cleaning them.

Can you teach an old dog new tricks?  Well maybe.   I clean the chains, rings and cogs with mineral spirits and citrosol.  I use a standard oil lube and wipe them down as best I can.  The process of wiping down the chains inevitably contaminates the rings and cogs with oil and the first ride bleeds oil from the inside to the outside of the chain.  The oil collects dirt, which wears down rings and cogs.  (I just ordered three new rings today, so I'm focused).  Every time I go through this process of cleaning 9 chains, I watch a youtube video on chain waxing but get put off by the initial effort and purchase of a crock pot, ultrasonic cleaner, etc; and wonder if it would really improve this process ; keep the chain cleaner and reduce wear?

Your experience, appreciated.

Michael

[Jack K]

I've been following a variant of Zero Friction Adam's suggested routine for years, but unlike Adam I adopted that routine out of laziness. I hot wax with Chain Wax(TM), a paraffin + PTFE product that I bought a lifetime supply of when it went off the market 20-ish years ago. Between hot waxings I lube up with Boeshield (usually) or ProGold (until the bottle runs out). Somewhere I got a tiny drip bottle of Boeshield about the size of my thumb, which is easy to carry on the bike when need be and it's easy to refill.

Boeshield is fairly clean stuff, but eventually the chain does get to the point where it leaves a smudge on your calf if you bump it. I take that as a sign it's time for an off-bike clean and hot wax treatment. Sounds like maybe Smoov would be better than Boeshield? I'll likely give it a try in a decade or so when my supply of Boeshield runs out.

-Jack

[☆ Paul ☆]

Hello Jack.

No idea if Smoov is better than what you do — may not given the deep cleaning you do. But it is simpler and easier (so far). 

It'll take another month or two before I can really say! It gets cold and muddy here in VT, which should be a good test. 

Best.

Paul