"Cross-training" for cycling: walking? Also: Inexpensive but large and practical backpack?

[Patrick Moore]

I should be doing more of other sorts of exercise besides cycling anyway, but what brings this to mind is that my lower back -- center, just above hips -- has been moderately painful off and on for the last 7-10 days; I think that the cause or occasion was insufficient muscle tone while spending too much time all at once bent over working on the Monocog and other things; this exacerbated by bending over too forcefully a couple of times afterward to reach things on the ground (dog shit, if you must know). It's not more than mild, and for a long time I've been stiff down there after sitting (I do try to sit straight) or bending, and it has been worse in the past; generally my back is fine, thank God; but I'd like to nip it in the bud.

Besides cycling, I do pushups, but that aside, I despise "exercise." I've heard, read, and felt when I do it that simple walking is a good all-over exercise and that, in particular, it strengthens your core -- of course, it will do this only moderately but moderately is all I want.

Can anyone comment on walking for general health and, in particular, to keep your core in basic tone? I have noticed that, when I walk more, my trunk and legs feel less "tight."

Once again, I am not likely to do stretching or any methodical program of exercise, so advice in regimens is likely wasted effort. (That's why God invented bikes, fer heaven's sake!! To make "exercise" -- and "saving the planet" -- fun.)

If anyone has general useful information on lower back pain, I'll be grateful to hear it.

Next question: Can anyone recommend an inexpensive large backpack for grocery runs? It should hold, and hold with reasonable comfort to the wearer, at least a full paper grocery sack's worth of groceries, including the weight of cans and bottles. Longest distance loaded will be 1 mile -- I have 1 grocery store 1/4 mile away, another 7/10 mile away, even though I live in a bosque enclave. 

I just walked to and from the further one -- Sprout's -- and carried home 36 lb of groceries, 29 lb in a very large Timbuktu courier bag; not the best method. Carrying 36 lb of groceries on a bike is a lot easier! But the wheels of my grocery bike are waiting at the bike shop for the rim tape needed to make the Naches Pass tires tubeless.

Patrick "18.53 minutes per mile outbound empty, 23.04 minutes per mile return under load" Moore

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Patrick Moore]

To put this in context: I read that the British Marines "yomped" 80 lb over 3 days to get to the battle zone in the Falklands; that applicants to British Gurkha regiments must still run up hillsides carrying 80 lb baskets of stones; and that 18th and 19th century coureurs des bois humped 200 lb loads over hills to span rapids separating streams navigable by their canoes -- and if Quebecois of the old generation that I saw in the '80s/'80s are indicative, these were little men about 5'3" tall -- basically, the same size as my mother's generation of Filipinos. We moderns are soft.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 10:55 AM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

...I just walked to and from the further one -- Sprout's -- and carried home 36 lb of groceries, 29 lb in a very large Timbuktu courier bag; 

[Ben Mihovk]

My first suggestion for lower back pain is a foam roller. Yes, it's kind of like stretching, but has REALLY helped me with lower back pain (especially hitting the glutes and hips with it). But...like I said, that's maybe too close to stretching for you.

I endorse walking, but I prefer to run for my "exercise that's not on a bike." Running a a nice easy pace is a great fully body workout...same as walking, but it takes less time to burn the same number of calories. A good post-run stretch of the hamstrings, quads, knees, and hips is also a good idea, but again...I know you won't have any of that. :)

Ben

[Ian A]

The first thing that comes to mind is the fit of the new bike. If this issue doesn't manifest on your other bikes, a look at adjusting fit would be valuable.

In terms of overall strength and flexibility, I have found Ashtanga based yoga very beneficial. Deacon Patrick's floor living seems to yield similar and probably better results. Back pain could be caused by lower body lack of flexiblilty like tight hamstrings even.  Walking is superb for the back, as long as posture is good and released. I drive for a living and often get a tight upper back and neck which can be really painful. Walking or running allows those muscles to release. But, I have found posture (form)  important.

In terms of the servicemen carrying massive loads, many of those chaps experience life-long back problems. I've hitchhiked around Australia and Southern Africa and a number of people who picked me up were ex-military (during their service days they would hitchhike home for leave apparently). A number of those chaps commented on my light pack (~14kg) and told me of the loads they carried and the damage their backs sustained. Bricklayers are similarly cursed. Too much weight eventually leaves its mark.

IanA Alberta Canada

[Garth]

Patrick, I walk all winter once/if the snow and ice arrive and it's too cold for riding for myself. That's mid 20's. I'm fortunate to have a wondrous variety of places to venture, either on the local rods or off. It's also totally hilly, not at all like where you are.

Once the leaves have fallen the woods become like a playground to me, there's always somewhere to go I have not been. You know what's nice too ? Walking I don't work up a sweat, I don't have to come home and clean up and wash underlayers, it's just so "normal"!  I walk an hour or two, whatever I feel like. With all the hills and dales I go up and down by the time spring rolls around I can get back into the rhythm of riding pretty easily.

I abhor "working out" also, I can do some push-ups for a few days in a row but get rather bored with it. The only thing I regularly have been doing is "bridges", where you get on your back, scoot your legs up and back, and raise/lower your butt. It feels wonderful to stretch, whatever they are. I do maybe 50-80 a day like that, and also do one legged ones, lifting up the other leg as high as I can go, holding each leg for 20-30 seconds. I also have a folding mat that's about 8 inches tall that I place under my feet to make it a little harder. I just do as many as I feel like, so I feel refreshed. Unbeknownst to me, this really seemed to help my trunk/hips/etc move more freely both in walking and in cycling, climbing in particular. So yeah, this is the only "exercise" I do most days, and I can continue it because as I said, it feels wonderful whatever is happening.

Other than that, like "maintenance" of the bike, it's all "on demand" and "local" so to speak. If I feel like making big circles with my arms in the morning, I just do it. If I feel like lifting something heavy-ish, I do it. Last week I bought 7 40 pound bags of softener salt, that was fun in the store pulling a 280 pound grocery cart around !  It felt good, but it's not something I'm going to do regularly. Life is really fun when you let go of all the notions of pre-scribed activity and go with the inherent spontaneity of Life itself.

That's what I love about walking too, I can go out at 4AM if I feel like it. Sometimes there's just "something in the air" so to speak that draws me out at a certain hour of the morning. I get up at 2AM or so anyways and sometimes the way the moon shines, or the wind blows, or the scent of the air ... it's an irresistible invitation.

[Patrick Moore]

From a "Shovelglove" post.

Exertion vs. Exercise

It's idiotic. We've invented one class of machine to spare us physical exertion, and another class of machine to inflict it back on us again, but in an infinitely more boring, painful, and useless manner. We view it as the triumph of our age that work no longer means labor, that we can burn fossil fuel instead of living muscle. And yet we berate ourselves that we do not labor in our leisure time, that we do not spend our freed hours in the gym, that torture chamber that is only possible because the automobile and the escalator have saved us so much labor that the surfeit is killing us.

It's offensive. Work, dammit, and you won't have to play work later. No, you probably can't kill a caribou for dinner, or plow a field, or do most of the useful work that your ancestors did for thousands of generations. But you can still walk. And believe it or not, walking is enough (more on that below).

Let me guess: you don't go to the gym, or strap yourself to the bike machine, or grind the cartilage off your joints jogging around the track, as often as you think you should, if at all. Maybe you go for six months, plateau, get bored, quit for a year, get disgusted, and start up again. Maybe you haven't exercised in ages. You suspect that your problem is a deficiency of willpower. Well, you're off. Your problem is you are squandering willpower on a hopeless task: exercise divorced from purpose. The solution: purposeful exertion; in particular, walking.

Walking is still useful. It is interesting and pleasant. You can think and observe while you walk. You get somewhere. You don't need any special equipment or outfits. It provides great health returns on very little investment, without the risk associated with high impact activities. And you can do it for the rest of your life.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 10:55 AM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

... Can anyone comment on walking for general health and, in particular, to keep your core in basic tone? 

[Andy Beichler]

I really like that post from shovelglove.  I walk.  More than I bike actually.  Especially now that I work from home because riding to and from work was a big part of my riding.  I have come to really love it. I get up and go walking first thing in the morning and then spend the rest of the day getting to at least 10,000 steps(more than that most days).  I like the idea of being a few miles from home and knowing I have the gumption to walk home.  I like the idea of keeping my body in basic working order. And, my youngest is in college, majoring in Environmental studies with an emphasis in Outdoor Education.  I want to be ready to go for a long backpacking trip when he graduates.  I used to do stuff like that when I was younger and I am excited to have a knowledgeable partner for adventures.  Being able to walk is an important part of my life plans.

[Brian Campbell]

This post is much like your post about needing to eat so you don't bonk while riding but that you don't like to eat before you ride.......

FWIW, I cracked 3 vertebrae while sledding with my kids in 2008. Back pain entered my life afterward and like you, I didn't "like"  to exercise. I rode my bike and walked and tried all manner of "bike fitting" to alleviate the back pain that has become associated with riding.

After years of dealing with intermittent "spasms"  and seemingly random events that triggered excruciating back pain, I read about strengthening my core and decided to direct some focus in that direction.

My take away is that the core strengthening worked/works for me. Instances of back pain are pretty much a thing of the past and if I do get a twinge it is not long lasting. It has also improved my riding in that I don't have to rely on my hands as the sole means of support for my upper body.

Pick 2 or three things that you can rotate so as to not get too bored and if something doesn't work for you, be open minded enough to try something else.

If you need motivation just think of exercise as a "tax" to be paid on your relatively cushy lifestyle vs. the many billions of others on the planet who do not have the luxury of choosing "exercise" or not. If they don't exert themselves, they will not be around very long.....

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks for all the replies. Much to enlighten and of interest.

To be clear, my back has been largely trouble free, thank God, and it's in the last 2  weeks or so that it's twinging. 

I know I should buckle down and do some exercises to strengthen my core (well, pushups do that, but also my shoulders and arms, as well as do more for my torso muscles; must get back to shovelglove) but if walking can help sufficiently, I'd rather walk; whence my question about walking and core muscle tone, or more basically, walking and back health.

As someone else pointed out, it's probably not the best therapy to carry heavy loads on your back, so let's leave that out. (And my Naches Passes, now tubeless -- sealants don't work in tubes at low pressures -- were ready 5 days early, and are back on the errand bike, so I have a grocery carrier.

As to shovelglove, it's far more tolerable than many other regimens; in fact, I've reduced even shovelglove to a minimum-minimum, focusing more on shoulders and arms than torso and using 2 12-lb hammers with handles cut to 12"; I use them one in each hand -- when I use them.

Meanwhile, I also ought to sit more on the floor, both X-legged and with legs stretched out straight. 

Back to walking: If anyone has more information about walking and back health, please post it.

Thanks.

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 10:55 AM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

I forgot to mention that bike fit is not the cause of the problem. The stem on the new-to-me Monocog is about 2-3 cm too far forward, but even that bike isn't too bad.

[rlti...@gmail.com]

Since the COVID lockdown I’ve been skipping the gym so I bought some kettlebells and use them for arm and shoulder exercises as well as doing some kettlebell swings with them. Those swings are a pretty good workout. I also do sit ups and push ups. 

This is just a couple days per week but I should add a day. I don’t really like doing it but I need some upper body workout. I also walk with my wife for a mile or two each night. 

My brother bought a weight vest to wear while hiking. He fills his up with 40 lbs of weight. The weights sit close to your body so I don’t think it would be bad for your back.

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 17, 2020, at 2:19 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[reynoldslugs]

I like to ride really steep hills, and in the middle of the steepest part, I get off and push my bike.  A hundred yards or so of steep pushing is a great way to break up the bike ride.  Call it whatever you’d like - exertion, excretion, exercise, core, or whatever else you like, but it is all those things.  Great for the back, core, glutes.   I have a bunch of stuff wrong with my back, and this routine of riding/walking/pushing the bike up hills helps a lot.  I do this several times a week.

YMMV

Max Beach

Santa Rosa CA

[jack loudon]

Patrick, I have also avoided 'exercise' my whole life, and haven't set foot in a gym since my college days more than 45 years ago.  I don't do much besides bicycling, walking (often hiking, sometimes jogging), and building construction.  My main back problems were before retirement, working 9-10 hours per day mostly seated at a desk, even though I often commuted to work by bicycle and thought I was in decent shape.  So for me, the more sedentary I was, the worse my back felt.  Post retirement, I started doing small construction jobs for myself and others, and haven't had a single back issue, in spite of (or maybe because of) the moderately strenuous work.  If you have the inclination, a construction project, like a deck or maybe a garden shed, might help keep your back healthy like it does mine.  It's also challenging and satisfying to build your own things.

As to backpacks, the cheap ones hug your back and don't have much padding, so hard boxes and bottles can poke into your back.  Maybe that can be tolerated for a short walk home from the store.  The nice packs (probably overkill for your use) have a semi-rigid frame that holds the pack away from your back, so you don't get poked by hard objects and also your back doesn't sweat.  I have a bit of a pack fetish and my favorites are the Osprey Stratos series (comes in several sizes), which are neither cheap nor lightweight, but are extremely comfortable with heavier loads.  

Jack - Seattle

[Tom Palmer]

Hi Patrick,

Late to the party here. I do a short intense work out of pushups, squats, and planks. 10 minutes maximum. Start with pushups by doing as many as I can, switch to squats, usually about 20, do a 30 second plank, back to squats 20 or as many as I can, pushups again, and rotate. The key is very little rest between sets. If I had a pull up bar I would do those in the rotation too. 
I have inflammation issues and if I do this a few times a week an dstay away from sugar and grains, I feel great. my riding is way stronger too.

Tom Palmer

Twin Lake, MI

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 12:56:12 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

[Mike Godwin]

Patrick, 

there's gotta be others here with lower disc issues, L5-6 for me. It seems like once you start feeling those twinges, it "suggests" other issues are going on. Stretching moves every day keeps the discs flexible, it helps get fluids into the discs, and minor benefit it helps the core muscles by equalizing the tension. Mix in with different body exercises (specific leg lifts, other things, planks, push ups).  Push-ups help me with riding on drops.  Bike riding actually causes tightening of the muscles that connect into the lower back, so you want to even things out and keep loose. Walking is a very good way of keeping things loose. Unlike Jack, if I'm doing construction projects, it really aggravates the lower back, but gotta keep stretching.  I had an episode last summer where my right leg was going numb, but on the inside - hip to ankle - stabbing hot pain that kept me from sleeping for 3 days. Now I know what true sciatic pain is, it is brutal. Its from compression of the spine on nerves where the discs are damaged. I don't like doing the exercises either, but I do like being able to ride and walk and hike. Don't let it get away from you. 

Check out The Back Mechanic by Stuart McGill for self-help regimes.

Mike SLO CA

[Robert Hakim]

Patrick,  not sure if you are an app guy or not, but I found the Nike Training Club app to be helpful to get me motivate to maintain my body. It helps to motivate by breaking down the barriers I perceive and removing most excuses. (Only excuse left now is me being a lazy, lazy man) 

I was working on a project documenting construction errors and it’s fix which required me to take thousands upon thousands of photos with a dslr mounted with a telephoto lens and large flash unit every day for months. The majority of the photos were on very high ceilings, you can imagine the havoc this unleashed on my young neck and back, constantly craning upwards and compensating for whatever pain developed the day before... 

A friend recommended me the app and told me to ignore my disdain for traditional athletics and standard exercise. I heeded the advice and was quite pleased what great leaps and bounds of progress I made with relatively little commitment. The app is nice because you can select the body group you want to maintain and they have encouraging guided videos that walk you through the process and show you how to modify the drills for comfort or lack of equipment. 

Best of all, no gym required! It removes that huge barrier for me, I can now flail in my living room with nary a soul to cast judgment on my lack of strength or strings of winded expletives muttered throughout the event.

I liken the improvements to finally changing the cable housing on your shifting and braking system after a few years of dealing with dwindling performance. It will make you feel crisp and refreshed! 

Best of luck 

Robert 

[ascpgh]

I'm all for having a few more things with me for short trips afoot. but a bag with straps simply hangs on your shoulders and moves your center of gravity causing you to adopt an increasingly affected posture as the weight goes up. Neither your spine or your shoulders are columnar structures. They are structures that are created with soft tissue elements which injure from overuse. I will be narrating how repair of a shoulder with such goes post-op. Scheduled for 12/21 barring a complete shut down in the surge. The ortho said it wouldn't be delayed too long since any additional breakdown may result in instability threatening nerve and circulatory status. 

 A good pack does everything possible to route the weight of load to your hips. Your lumbar spine has enough problems over time (avoiding "aging" here) with simple wear and/or shrinkage of the discs once providing suspension between the vertebrae. That doesn't even account for injury or overuse. I don't purposely load my back for good intent or toil because the outcome of that compression will be impingement of nerves and/or an increasingly limited range of motion. 

We used to sell Dana (Gleason) Design backpacks and hipsacks that were the pinnacle of this weight transfer and accommodation of back articulation while carrying the loaded pack. Dana D. sold to K2, died under their watch and Gleason came out of retirement and started Mystery Ranch Packs. This idea that you should remove all load from your back was recognized by the Navy SEALs under the challenges of large loads, terrible terrain and need to prevent back fatigue/injury and Mystery Ranch began producing backpacks for them.  

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Jesse Stoddard]

For heavier loads you definitely want the majority of the weight directed into your lower body. External frame packs haven't been surpassed in terms of weight transfer; see if you can find a nice example on the secondhand market. Dana Designs are commonly held as the pinnacle of external pack design, but a Kelty or similar would probably suffice as long as it can be adjusted to fit your frame correctly.

[Ray Varella]

Walking is great, moving around in any way is really good for you. 

Moving heavy objects at full exertion a few times per week will keep your core really strong. 

Exercises that isolate muscle groups might make you look good but they won’t strengthen your core the way “functional training” will. 

I work in heavy freight and I get all the heavy lifting I need by moving ungodly items in numerous ways. 

I think a lot about keeping my core strong without injuring myself. 

When I retire my routine will include walking and cycling. 

While on my walks I will climb things I come across, be it playground structures, boulders or trees and stairs. Using arm strength to pull yourself up is great for balance and strength, plus you are outside and will avoid the monotony of repetitious exercise. 

I would incorporate some form of heavy lifting. 

Kettle bells are great but if you aren’t careful you can tear shoulder muscles. 

I would buy a tire from a piece of heavy equipment. 

The act of flipping it will use your legs, shoulders, arms and stomach muscles. 

I would drill a hole in it and fix an eye bolt sandwiched with large washers. 

I would make a harness so I could pull it both moving forward and backwards. 

I would also likely invest in one of those heavy ropes. 

The important thing is to have a routine that you don’t become bored with. 

Being outdoors and finding ways to keep moving should help with the boredom. 

Ray

[Ray Varella]

And grip strength, having a rope attached to something heavy, like the tire and pulling it hand over hand. 

Honestly, I think a heavy tire or two could serve as some of my favorite exercise equipment. 

I think about it often. 

Ray

On Saturday, November 21, 2020 at 4:20:10 AM UTC-8 Jesse Stoddard wrote:

[j glenn]

While strictly in the "take my advise, I'm not using it anyway" category, I find single blade Canadian style canoe paddling to be an excellent balance to cycling. It takes a bit to get ambidextrous, but at least for me has been great conditioning and therapy for  back,  shoulders elbows and hands.  I haven't been paddling much recently for various reasons, but a big one has been dreading the 85 pound canoe clean and jerk to get on the new minivans roof rack.  There's a reason I was given this particular barge 20 years ago, and it hasn't gotten any lighter.   

[j glenn]

P.S.   A grocery sack  is probably 20 liters, which is within the range of a "Day Pack", but you want haul 40lbs so you need a at minimum a "heavy" daypack.   For a load like that with out a wide fitted hip belt I like the Dana Design with the plastic torso adjustable frame.  For smaller heavy haulers  used with a wide fitted waist belt I like 90's vintage Mountainsmith.   They had a bunch with a  single layer waist belt that was very effective and could clipped out of the way when not needed.  If you are going to ride with a 40 pound pack, I would highly recommend having a waist belt. Going over the handle bars with loaded pack stuck to the back of your head would not be fun.      

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks to all the people who responded since my last thank you. Much useful information, particularly the suggestions for everyday, practical ways of getting exercise by doing things around house and yard, which I ought to do anyway. And I'm glad to see that my preliminary bias toward walking as a complement to cycling is shared by others.

[jack loudon]

One final thought on bad backs and backpacks; I would think twice about carrying heavy loads in a backpack if my back was already ailing.    When mine was acting up, lifting a heavy pack onto and off exacerbated my back problems, even though things felt okay once the pack was in place.   Years ago I lived in Vancouver BC and walked everywhere.  For groceries a folding shopping cart was my constant companion, and IMO much better for that particular job than a backpack.  I would push mine for two or three miles without thinking.  Of course a folding cart does occupy the bottom rung on the 'cool factor' ladder, evoking images of cranky old ladies in pleated rain bonnets, but it works...

Jack - Seattle

[Patrick Moore]

I agree; I've abandoned the backpack-loaded-with-groceries idea for now. I have plenty of other opportunities for walking, and I can always strengthen my arms by carrying loaded cloth grocery bags (properly balanced) back from the nearer store.

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