Sam Hillborne - Upright vs Drop

[Ted Durant]

Hi All -

On the n+1 theme of a recent thread ...

Since the delivery of my Chapman, my Great Lakes Sam has been sulking in the corner, getting a bit dusty. As I thought about rationalizing my collection, I decided it was time to make Great Lakes Sam my upright bike-about-town. I've just finished setting it up with Choco bars on a 13cm stem, and holy moly it feels fantastic. Other bikes I've converted to upright have never felt right, mostly because the steering gets so weirdly light. The steering on the Sam lightens up just a bit, but it feels like a sport horse itching to go. I had 48mm tires on it initially, and they are dreamy, but the clearance under the fork crown is tight and I have some light wires stuffed up there, so I put 42s on it and it's still dreamy. I'm thinking about putting Cazaderos on it so I can take it to the local MTB trails for fun. 

Time to start dialing in the build so it doesn't look like a parts-bin special. Currently it has a Dura-Ace7900/CX70/Herse drivetrain on it, with Dura-Ace 10sp bar end shifters. I have thoughts of making it a 1x, but I'd have to find a not-ugly rear derailer that can handle a large cog, or maybe put a drop link back there. But, the 2x setup works flawlessly and the gear ranges are better than I expected. If the DA7900 rear derailer can handle a 32, I might be done with the drivetrain.

Meanwhile, my Breadwinner G-Road has been reassembled with the Force22 drivetrain and drop bars, and it will get fenders and lights reinstalled in preparation for being my ugly roads winter bike. 

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[Keith Paugh]

Any pictures?

k.

On Aug 17, 2025, at 7:35 PM, Ted Durant <tedd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All -

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[Richard Rose]

Wow! A Breadwinner as an ugly duckling.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 17, 2025, at 10:35 PM, Ted Durant <tedd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All -

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[Spencer Robinson]

I changed my Sam to albatross bars from the OG dirt Drops that I had been running for the previous 9 years or so. After almost a full year on the bike with the Albatross bars, my impression is that the bike musta been designed with Albatross bars in mind. Currently I have the bars flipped so the “normal grip” position is just slightly lower than the saddle and the bends are about level with the saddle but stretches me out. It provides 2 great positions. For me, I was only down in the drops maybe 20% at best. The Albatross bars are much more versatile. 

[Ted Durant]

On Monday, August 18, 2025 at 9:06:16 AM UTC-5 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:

Wow! A Breadwinner as an ugly duckling.

Well I don't think I'd put it that way :-). The Breadwinner is the best-suited of my bikes for riding in conditions that require frequent washing, and it's my only bike with little brake rotors at the hubs, so it's marginally better on wet roads.

[Ted Durant]

On Monday, August 18, 2025 at 7:34:12 PM UTC-5 gogou...@gmail.com wrote:

I changed my Sam to albatross bars from the OG dirt Drops that I had been running for the previous 9 years or so.

That is a fantastic looking Sam build, and I especially like that your clothes complement the color scheme so well.

[Patrick Moore]

Man, Spencer, the setup in the photo makes me want to swap out my forever Maes Parallels for a flipped Albatross on at least one bike. 

My very sensitive left palm is the negating factor for so many non-drop bars and I’ve tried umpteen of them over the years only to go back to drops when I can’t ride others for more than 5 miles without hand pain.

I’ve set up many bikes with flipped North Road bars but those are good only for short distances. The Albatrosses and cousins look like tweaked North Road bars, but perhaps the tweaking is enough to make a difference. 

Please tell us, how comfortable is your setup when riding on the curves (transition between ends and flats) and roughly/ballpark/even metaphorically, how much time do you spend riding on those curves? If I were to use that setup, most of my riding would be on the curves.

Thanks, Patrick

[Spencer Robinson]

Hi Patrick, 

Out in the curves , forward of the brake levers is where i am 60% of the time. And I get what you are saying about sore palms. The curves take the pressure off combined with the thick, chunky, rubber grips in the “normal” hand position, both positions work. This is the most comfortable setup for me.

Last summer, when I went from the dirt drops to albatross, I was using a nitto tectomic stem, slammed with the bars in normal, upright configuration. The only thing was in the rough stuff, the single bolt bar clamp would slip. My remedy was to order the 4 bolt stem from blue lug. When I installed it the bars were higher because the blue lug stem is a riser, i started to have saddle discomfort, so I flipped the bars, and it is just perfect. 

The bars are where i like, they don’t slip and my sit bones are where they are happy. 

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[Keith Paugh]

Spencer,

That is a mean machine. Looks fantastic.

k.

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[Patrick Moore]

The way your bar looks is so “right” that I am very tempted to copy it.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[Ted Durant]

On Aug 19, 2025, at 1:05 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

The way your bar looks is so “right” that I am very tempted to copy it.

In most things I believe in “looks right, flies right.” I’m struggling a bit with my upright Sam, though. The bar angle that feels best is similar to Spencer’s. However, he has a stem with a bit of rise above 90 degrees, so the bar flats are close to parallel with the stem. I’m using a Tech Dlx stem, so the stem extension is parallel to the ground (almost), and the bar flats don’t match that nor (as with Spencer’s) do they match the slope of the top tube.  I rotated mine so the flats match the slope of the top tube, and that looks better, but it doesn’t feel better. I may have to go with the lesser aesthetic for the greater comfort. 

[Patrick Moore]

Yes, the bar tilt is crucial. For some reason over 3-4 decades I’ve always found that bars have to be perfectly level, otherwise my very sensitive left palm suffers. So I’d certainly bring the ends of the Albatross up to level.

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[Spencer Robinson]

Ted, Patrick,

If you try this setup, please post some pictures, I would love to see it.  I think it would look “right” with a zero rise stem as well, you would just have more quill showing, more of a traditional look. The one thing that makes them feel right is the angle of the bars…my iPhone app reports that mine are at -15 degrees

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[Bikie#4646]

Regarding flipped Albatross bars, when I switched to the bars a few years ago (from drops),  I liked them but felt a little too upright. When I flipped them on my SS road bike, a custom Ellis by Dave Wages, it seemed perfect. I don't put longer miles on this bike, so liked the more retro "roadster-ish" look. It makes a nice alternative to my other bikes, too.

Paul Germain

Midlothian, Va. 

[dt...@pm.me]

This is my Sam with Choco bars. Titled down a bit more than the top tube slope. Always rode drops before this, but these are super comfortable holding the ends or over the brake levers, but I can always bend forward and grip them near the stem if I want to feel like I'm going fast! 

Chuck

[Ted Durant]

On Aug 19, 2025, at 2:29 PM, 'Bikie#4646' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

a custom Ellis by Dave Wages

VERY Nice! And bonus points for being made in Wisconsin by a super nice guy.

[Ted Durant]

On Aug 19, 2025, at 2:44 PM, 'dt...@pm.me' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

This is my Sam with Choco bars. Titled down a bit more than the top tube slope. 

Making me feel so much better. Thanks folks!

Photos eventually, after I’ve cleaned up the “just throw it on there and see how it works” stuff.

[J G]

Good to see Ted having luck with the 13cm stem and happy to see the flipped Albatross bars working for people as well.

About to convert my David Kirk fast fender road bike to a fat tire flipped Albatross bar setup and picked up a 135mm Seven Ti 25.4 riser stem for the conversion.  

I run my Woodchippers at 20 degrees south of level for dirt drop (primary position in drops) mountain biking and figured I would flatten the angle a bit so may start at 15 degrees where Paul has his, but my nose tips a bit less so I am end up in that 10-15 degree range once I set it up.

Always great to see one of Dave's bikes.  He had one of the most progressive early gravel bikes on display when I met him at NAHBS in 2013.  A real highlight of that year's show.

Lots of good stuff here.  Thanks for sharing all.

-Justus

Mpls, MN

[Marc Irwin]

I built my Sam with Bosco's from the start and have not looked back.  In fact, a year after that, I switched the drops from my Hunqapiller to Bosco"s.

Marc

On Sunday, August 17, 2025 at 10:35:26 PM UTC-4 Ted Durant wrote:

[esoterica etc]

That's a really nice Ellis, Paul! Speaking of flipped Albatross bars on single speed bikes, here's my Schwinn from my days back in North Carolina.  

The flipped Albatross was supremely comfortable for me, both in the hooks (forward drop position) and upright at the bar ends. Time spent in each position was very nearly 50%.

But not so with an Albastache for me. I really tried to like those but they just didn't get along with my wrists, both in standard position and flipped position. 

~Mark

Kailua, HI

On Aug 19, 2025, at 9:29 AM, 'Bikie#4646' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Regarding flipped Albatross bars, when I switched to the bars a few years ago (from drops),  I liked them but felt a little too upright. When I flipped them on my SS road bike, a custom Ellis by Dave Wages, it seemed perfect. I don't put longer miles on this bike, so liked the more retro "roadster-ish" look. It makes a nice alternative to my other bikes, too.

Paul Germain

Midlothian, Va. 

<IMG_9559.jpeg>

On Monday, August 18, 2025 at 8:34:12 PM UTC-4 gogou...@gmail.com wrote:

I changed my Sam to albatross bars from the OG dirt Drops that I had been running for the previous 9 years or so. After almost a full year on the bike with the Albatross bars, my impression is that the bike musta been designed with Albatross bars in mind. Currently I have the bars flipped so the “normal grip” position is just slightly lower than the saddle and the bends are about level with the saddle but stretches me out. It provides 2 great positions. For me, I was only down in the drops maybe 20% at best. The Albatross bars are much more versatile. 

On Sunday, August 17, 2025 at 10:35:26 PM UTC-4 Ted Durant wrote:

Hi All -

On the n+1 theme of a recent thread ...

Since the delivery of my Chapman, my Great Lakes Sam has been sulking in the corner, getting a bit dusty. As I thought about rationalizing my collection, I decided it was time to make Great Lakes Sam my upright bike-about-town. I've just finished setting it up with Choco bars on a 13cm stem, and holy moly it feels fantastic. Other bikes I've converted to upright have never felt right, mostly because the steering gets so weirdly light. The steering on the Sam lightens up just a bit, but it feels like a sport horse itching to go. I had 48mm tires on it initially, and they are dreamy, but the clearance under the fork crown is tight and I have some light wires stuffed up there, so I put 42s on it and it's still dreamy. I'm thinking about putting Cazaderos on it so I can take it to the local MTB trails for fun. 

Time to start dialing in the build so it doesn't look like a parts-bin special. Currently it has a Dura-Ace7900/CX70/Herse drivetrain on it, with Dura-Ace 10sp bar end shifters. I have thoughts of making it a 1x, but I'd have to find a not-ugly rear derailer that can handle a large cog, or maybe put a drop link back there. But, the 2x setup works flawlessly and the gear ranges are better than I expected. If the DA7900 rear derailer can handle a 32, I might be done with the drivetrain.

Meanwhile, my Breadwinner G-Road has been reassembled with the Force22 drivetrain and drop bars, and it will get fenders and lights reinstalled in preparation for being my ugly roads winter bike. 

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

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<IMG_9559.jpeg>

[Paul Germain]

Thank you Ted. Correct - Dave Wages is as nice a fellow you will find in the business. 

Paul Germain

Midlothian, Va.

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[Paul Germain]

Mark,

Thumbs up on the bike and your bars too. Very nice.

Paul Germain

Midlothian, Va. 

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[Ryan]

Really nice Ellis....and the orange and blue-accented  Schwinn Voyageur rocks, too!