Heck, even my Monocog is lighter than your Platypus. [Monocog with Specialized Hover bar]

[Patrick Moore]

32.25 lb with stuffed-full kitbag.

But I do agree that Leah's Platypus (and everyone else's Platypus and Joe's custom, etc) is prettier.

I finally swapped in the 44 cm (middle of bends) Specialised Hover Bar to replace the severely truncated MAP/Ahearne bar (4" off each end, removed from the shorter of the 2 models offered), with Dia Compe non-aero levers pulling Road BB7s. The bar tape is scrap, partial, provisional, and temporary.

The Hover bar has a very short reach, shallow drop, and a 15 mm rise on the flats) and I simply removed the truncated M/A from the 9 cm + 17* Ritchey stem and plunked the Hover in in its place. 44 cm seems wide because I favor 38 cm Maes Parallels on my road bike, but the added width does give more control -- and slows the steering -- and is 1 of 3 qualities that seems to make the bike handle more securely and predictably on sketchy ditchbank paths -- slanting toward 3' of dirty irrigation water on root-infested, 24" ditchside paths. I rode a familar ditchbank route this afternoon and was very pleased that the bike seemed more secure than with the M/A -- I rode it faster and easier. The new bar does put me further forward and lower, but the bike rides "lighter" despite the longer/lower position since -- I guess -- (1) my torso is holding more of my weight up instead of my hands or queen mum, (2) the longer reach gives a greater "tiller effect," and the greater bar width adds to this last. "Lighter:" I noticed this when riding over the typical high-frequency / low-amplitude surface chop -- horses, y'know. The ride seemed smoother, and this was not merely the result of 14 psi: lower and forward means lighter on behind and hands/arms/shoulders.

 

The greater reach + the wider bar slow handling -- more "tiller" -- so that the Monocog seems positively sluggish now both at 7 mph and at 15 mph where before it was simply "slow" like a lower-middle IQ child, but this sluggishness (just on the "OK" side of acceptable) also means that surface irregularities -- roots, rocks, choppy dirt -- have less effect on the steering.

 

And one more interesting thing: A more forward and lower position makes you re-think your saddle position. With the M/A I had the saddle -- first edition Flite -- slammed all the way back on the rails and seapost raised for full leg extension; I wanted to sit back and push forward. Leaning and reaching more forward, I wanted to move the saddle forward and down; which I did, ~7 mm forward and ~10 mm down. This felt better particularly in the hooks, which with the slightly lower and closer saddle are now much more comfortable. But the further-forward hoods position also make standing and grunting, as through sand, feel more natural compared to the closer and higher M/A. So perhaps I don't need a shorter or a higher stem after all.

 

One last remark: for ease of bar swapping, threadless stems and non-aero lever make swaps a doddle. And the Dia Compe non-aero + BB7 Road combo work together brilliantly: strong braking, liberal pad / rotor gap, firm feel. Note please! A critical step in setting up cable disks is to attach the cable after the actuation arm has been moved at least 1/3 and better 1/2 of the way through its travel, not when the arm is fully relaxed.

 

Altogether, a very serendipitous and happy conjunction of existing, non-adjustable stem, shorter-hood brake levers, very short and shallow new bar, more road-bike-like riding position -- but not as low as on my road bikes -- and correspondingly lower and more forward saddle ended up working very well. Alhamdulillah. Even better would be a 7 cm stem at +17* with a 44 cm Maes Parallel, but for a beater that started out as the result of a last-hope trade, I'm -- as they say -- chuffed.

[Patrick Moore]

OTOH: this is puzzling: I see so many Rivendells on this list with very, very high bars, but with 52 tooth granny cogs; IOW gearing designed for low-torque fast-cadence twiddling. I don't get it. When I spin I move forward and down; when I torque I shove back and sit up. What gives? Someone explain.

On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 6:18 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

... And one more interesting thing: A more forward and lower position makes you re-think your saddle position. With the M/A I had the saddle -- first edition Flite -- slammed all the way back on the rails and seapost raised for full leg extension; I wanted to sit back and push forward. Leaning and reaching more forward, I wanted to move the saddle forward and down; which I did, ~7 mm forward and ~10 mm down. This felt better particularly in the hooks, which with the slightly lower and closer saddle are now much more comfortable. But the further-forward hoods position also make standing and grunting, as through sand, feel more natural compared to the closer and higher M/A. So perhaps I don't need a shorter or a higher stem after all.

[Joe Bernard]

I sit upright because I like it and I use really low gears because the hills are steep.  

[Brian Turner]

That logic would only make sense if most of your riding exists in either of those two extremes.

On Apr 27, 2023, at 9:15 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

I sit upright because I like it and I use really low gears because the hills are steep.  

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[Patrick Moore]

I'm sorry, what logic are we talking about?

I shove back and sit up for low-cadence, high-torque pedaling, and I move forward and down when I want to spin fast. My riding includes both extremes but it also includes the entire middle ground. So again, I don't understand "logic."

Patrick Moore, who has a doctorate in Aristotelian philosophy.

[Philip Williamson]

52 tooth granny cog? 

Philip 

SR, CA

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 6:08:22 PM UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:

[Doug H.]

I lean forward but not downward with the Tosco bars on my Clem. I get neck pain when the forward lean is also downward over long distances so the bars being above the saddle is my preference. The grip portion of the bars does sit me upright but the bars have a couple of forward areas that I use as well.

Doug

[lconley]

52 tooth granny cog on the freewheel, I assume.

I use the term granny for the small chainwheel on the crank, but others may not.

Laing

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 12:32:01 AM UTC-4 Philip Williamson wrote:

[DavidP]

Traditionally I think that's been the most common use of the term "granny gear" in the context of bicycle gearing, though it's likely due to the fact that for a long time the only way to get gearing low enough for your grandmother to push was to put a small chainring up front. With modern cassettes and derailleurs you can get a granny gear with a large rear cog on a 1x setup so I think Patrick's use makes sense.

-Dave

[Patrick Moore]

Yes, I meant those huge inner cogs. I don't know if they actually get to 52 teeth but I believe they've reached 50.

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-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Joe Bernard]

I have a 50. 

Granny Joe Bernard 

[Garth]

There's nothing to get Patrick as how you've explained how you position/ride is quite "natural" to me. That said, I never have or will ride a bike with very, very high bars. I won't say it's impossible to sit very upright and spin up steep hills, but it's surely awkward and inefficient to sit up too straight. Like you, in spinning I naturally move long and low. As a hill steepens and I can no longer maintain that cadence and quad load, I naturally move back a little in the saddle and sit up a little, just enough to pedal in my power zone. Never way upright !  Having given the higher bar positions(say 3" max hand position about saddle height) a try for a number of years, I can positively say I don't like it and found it to be a exercise in ever increasing futility. It just feels all wrong to me. Oh what a relief it is to lower the bars where my hands are just above saddle height at the highest, and I've found a much better/more suitable saddle to facilitate a low-er road position, an Ergon SMC. Oh where has a saddle like that been all my life ...... ! I just never tried them out before now. 

I've been meaning to get a hanging scale of some sort. I'm more apt to get a analog/dial one as they don't need batteries to function and battery dependency generally sucks. I have analog kitchen scales from the 70's that I use all the time. The Bombadil is a tankster and my Franklin feels like a heavy-er version of the various Columbus SL/SLX racing bikes I used to own. I love me some road bikes and riding ! 

[Steven Sweedler]

On big climbs do you ride in the  drops of with hands on the ramps. Steve

On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 1:32 PM Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

There's nothing to get Patrick as how you've explained how you position/ride is quite "natural" to me. That said, I never have or will ride a bike with very, very high bars. I won't say it's impossible to sit very upright and spin up steep hills, but it's surely awkward and inefficient to sit up too straight. Like you, in spinning I naturally move long and low. As a hill steepens and I can no longer maintain that cadence and quad load, I naturally move back a little in the saddle and sit up a little, just enough to pedal in my power zone. Never way upright !  Having given the higher bar positions(say 3" max hand position about saddle height) a try for a number of years, I can positively say I don't like it and found it to be a exercise in ever increasing futility. It just feels all wrong to me. Oh what a relief it is to lower the bars where my hands are just above saddle height at the highest, and I've found a much better/more suitable saddle to facilitate a low-er road position, an Ergon SMC. Oh where has a saddle like that been all my life ...... ! I just never tried them out before now. 

I've been meaning to get a hanging scale of some sort. I'm more apt to get a analog/dial one as they don't need batteries to function and battery dependency generally sucks. I have analog kitchen scales from the 70's that I use all the time. The Bombadil is a tankster and my Franklin feels like a heavy-er version of the various Columbus SL/SLX racing bikes I used to own. I love me some road bikes and riding ! 

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[Steve]

In the words of Sly Stone, "Different strokes for different folks".  Nuff said.

[Patrick Moore]

I think Garth does what I do, which is to shove back to the end of the saddle, put hands on ramps or flats, and push the crank forward and around at top dead center in a highish gear; right, Garth?

Me, I expect there are as many different climbing styles as there are gearing patterns, and perhaps some people like to sit upright and spin a very low gear. I (who raised the matter) can't climb like this because I don't twiddle when climbing. When I twiddle, it is to accelerate or to maintain peak speed (not very speedy in my case) and, to do so, move forward and bend low -- "on the rivet" as they used to say.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CALimyfL0Hco3-%3Dzqswh2d5Wg42yPdzFVwLE_0Jwa91DtH-n_CQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Joe Bernard]

I twiddle, I'm a big twiddler. Twiddling my life away. 

[Garth]

Yep Patrick and Steve that's what I do.

Spinning fast uphill in a tiny gear = going nowhere in a hurry and running out of breath. Going uphill in the largest gear I can get away with while pedaling slow and steady = very efficient in terms of propulsion forward, strength and breathing long, deep breaths. Actually on the steepest parts I'm bent over more forward with more arm bend the harder it gets, so in that way it really doesn't change from flats to uphill when pushing hard. The only difference is in the rpm. Both are quad burners ... heeheehee !

As I've watched pro road cycling since the 70/80's, this is how everyone rode. Slow rpm in big gears uphill and huge gears spinning high rpm with great supple' going downhill and on the flats. Watch Greg Lemond in the 80's in race videos, he was fluid from the very low to very high rpm. To be a pro you pretty much had to be able to do that. That started to change in the early 90's, where higher uphill rpm were beginning to happen, but that time frame coincided with the introduction of the drug EPO, which basically gave riders more oxygen in the blood so they could push those higher rpm without running out of oxygen. That's how the story goes as I understood it at least. Even still,  you see riders ride in every conceivable way and so one must caution against implying "everyone does this or that" because everyone is unique in their own way.

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 7:23:39 PM UTC-4 Patrick Moore wrote:

I think Garth does what I do, which is to shove back to the end of the saddle, put hands on ramps or flats, and push the crank forward and around at top dead center in a highish gear; right, Garth?

Me, I expect there are as many different climbing styles as there are gearing patterns, and perhaps some people like to sit upright and spin a very low gear. I (who raised the matter) can't climb like this because I don't twiddle when climbing. When I twiddle, it is to accelerate or to maintain peak speed (not very speedy in my case) and, to do so, move forward and bend low -- "on the rivet" as they used to say.

[Patrick Moore]

I twiddle, thou twiddlest, he/she/it twiddeleth, we twiddle, y'all twiddle, they twiddle.

I expect that if you repeat "twiddle" rapidly 1,000 times while breathing very shallowly and rapidly you will receive some sort of enlightenment.

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I’m going to make a video in which I lift my pair of Platypuses over my head. Racks. Bags. The whole bit. You can’t do that with your Monocog! 😜🤣

[Patrick Moore]

Now that's interesting. Watch even older videos of Coppi and Bartalli on climbs and on the flats; 50 rpm standing in a 62" gear, and -- Coppi -- 120 rpm bursts in a 93" high alternating with coasting on the flats (48 X 14-21 4 speed); much as I used to ride (we pros share a great deal) with the difference that (this was 30 years ago) my flatland cruising was about 64" at 108+ rpm for 20+ mph. No longer! 90 in a 76" gear is high. Funny, it was riding fixed that transformed me from a twiddler to a masher; true.

On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 6:11 PM Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

... As I've watched pro road cycling since the 70/80's, this is how everyone rode. Slow rpm in big gears uphill and huge gears spinning high rpm with great supple' going downhill and on the flats. Watch Greg Lemond in the 80's in race videos, he was fluid from the very low to very high rpm. To be a pro you pretty much had to be able to do that. That started to change in the early 90's, where higher uphill rpm were beginning to happen, but that time frame coincided with the introduction of the drug EPO, which basically gave riders more oxygen in the blood so they could push those higher rpm without running out of oxygen. That's how the story goes as I understood it at least. Even still,  you see riders ride in every conceivable way and so one must caution against implying "everyone does this or that" because everyone is unique in their own way. 

[Patrick Moore]

Hah; lift it and the Matthews together with a single finger, the small one.

Here's a shot but with a barbell:

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[Patrick Moore]

https://youtu.be/R3Uf4OKYqzs

The narrator is Phil Ligget's brother.

[Joe Bernard]

My bike is lighter than a bike that's heavier than my bike but heavier than a bike that's lighter than my bike. True story. 

[Steve]

"My bike is lighter than a bike that's heavier than my bike but heavier than a bike that's lighter than my bike. True story. "

Now Joe, that's just silly. Come to think of it, this whole thread is just silly - which is probably why I keep following it ; )

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

It’s about to get sillier. I made a video in response to Patrick’s thread. I’m attaching it as a link here, since it’s too big to include in the text. I changed my Instagram to public for this, but I’ll switch it back to private soon, so watch it before I do!

I’m on a roll over there with taking classic, classy Rivendells and putting them to tacky hit music. 5 years ago you long-time Riv fans would have thrown me out of here, but I think I’ve worn you down enough that you will find this palatable. Or not!

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CrohxSlgzAY/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[Steve]

Dingding - I LOVE it !!!    Might just be one of the best bicycle videos I've yet to see on the internet. Great soundtrack too!

Thanks for sharing. (Please invite me to your Webby Awards "Best Video award" party)

[Garth]

Ahahahahahaahahahahahaahaha   !!!  

Very good Leah :-))))) 

On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 4:36:11 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote: