(perhaps) dumb question time (bottle bosses)

[Michael Baquerizo]

i'm ready for the answer to be so obvious that I assume this is a dumb question. 

So often, on many bike frame, but also on Riv's - the bottle bosses on the seat tube straddle where the derailleur clamp would go. 

however, almost AS often as I see this, I also see plenty of real estate for them to exist ABOVE said clamp area, where they'd no doubt be more easily accessed by a rider.

why? it seems so obviously a design flaw, but surely I'M the one in the wrong.

[Ginz]

  My guess is that they want to you have space for the largest bottle possible and to keep the weight as low as possible.

My bikes are small and they ALWAYS collide with the front der.  When I hade a custom made, I did a braze-on front der.  1x drivetrains have helped, too

[Johnny Alien]

I feel like the higher up it is the more prone it is to be in the way of rotating legs. Its a secondary position for me as it is because the DT seems to be the easiest place for me to grab and thats much more out of the way. I don't put any bottles on the ST unless its a long ride in which I would need extra.

[iamkeith]

It's amazing how much time I spend questioning this same thing.  I can only assume it's an attempt to keep weight low, and because of the assumption that ankles /calves are skinnier than calves/thighs, so there's a leg clearance benefit.  After a while, designers seem to fall back on a default standard because it works "well enough."  I think that even applies to Grant, having looked at enoug of the fabrication drawings that he's shared.

I don't like the cage mounted low on the seat tube at all.  In addition to the oft- problematic derailleur interference that you mentioned, I often seem to get flappy pant leg cuffs caught on cages if mounted low - depending on the cage design and whether it's holding a bottle of course, but  definitely with the more common styles.  So on the vast majority of my bikes, I only use a cage on the downtube.

My absolute favorite configuration is a bike with two cages on the top of the downtube.  The bottom one ends up low enough that it would require a seat tube cage to be mounted higher, where it would work better anyway (to me.)  One of the first prototypes for the hillibikes had it this way, and I was really excited - but the production model didn't have this feature.  Some day, when I get a custom, I'll insist on this.

I often wonder how much graphics and decal placement considerations play into this, too. 

  

[iamkeith]

Here's an interesting observation...  

After posting, I surveyed my bikes to see what had what.  (Im such a geek.)  In a few cases, I have multiple bikes from the same designer, representing a fairly long timeframe of designer evolution.  Particularly for Grant, Tom Ritchey and Keith Bontrager.  In every one of those cases, the older models had higher seat tube mounting on the older models, but migrated to lower mounting (straddling the deraileur clamp) on the newer models.  

In the case of Grant, my older (2006 and earlier) Riv frames actually have the seat tube and downtube cages/bosses at roughly the same height relative to the bb.  Those bikes, which include an All Rounder, Saluki, and Rambouillet are the bikes where I have cages in both places.  The later Rivs, which include a Clem and a Susie, have the low seat tube bosses.  The Grant-era Bridgestones are closer to the old Rivs, but have slightly asymmetrical placement.  In the case of a 59cm XO-1, the seat tube boss ALMOST interferes with the derailleur clamp, which seems odd - even keeping in mind that chainring and derailleur selections vary and that it would be impossible to anticipate every combination

  

[Eric Daume]

Low bosses also allow more room for a frame bag above them, though the bosses have been low longer than frame bags have been a thing, so I'm thinking that keeping the weight low is the original reason.

Eric

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[Greg J]

There's also an aesthetic consideration - I read somewhere that the custom builder (not sure if it was Riv) took care to make sure the bottles on the seat tube and the down tube were on the same horizontal line.

Greg

[Brian Turner]

I still think it would’ve been neat to include some cargo bosses behind the seat tube on some of the longer chainstays models like Gus, Joe, and Clem. There’s so much space back there, I had a custom frame bag made to fit back there. It holds a lot, too!

Brian

Lex KY 

On Sep 20, 2024, at 1:29 PM, Greg J <greg...@gmail.com> wrote:

There's also an aesthetic consideration - I read somewhere that the custom builder (not sure if it was Riv) took care to make sure the bottles on the seat tube and the down tube were on the same horizontal line.

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[thomasl...@comcast.net]

Smaller sample (much, much smaller), consistent with iamkeith's pattern.

2010 double-top-tube 60m hillborne has higher placement

2012 double-top-tube 60m hillborne has lower placement

I'm pretty sure both frames were made in Waterford. There were a couple of other small-ish differences between the frames as well. I never bothered to learn whether any of the differences were really deliberate, intentional "improvements" or just "differences".

On both bikes I use the seat tube bosses to hold a Bordo lock holster. This worked better on the lower bosses; less angle-ing when pulling the lock up and out of its holster. Abus has since redesigned the holster to release the lock forward, not up, so when I switch to the new holster that aspect won't matter.

On both bikes I use a clamp-on front derailer adapter with "braze-on"-style front derailers. The lower bosses inspired, maybe required, a small amount of additional spacing to help/enable the lock holster to straddle that derailer adapter. And the area looks "busy" and can be a little cramped when tinkering. But overall I prefer the low bosses, in some part because those Bordo locks are heavy and keeping them lower feels like a good idea.

It's certainly doesn't matter when just riding around.

Yours,

Thomas Lynn Skean

who still can't get on board with the frame bag. tried but just can't do it.

[Garth]

I have one bike with the low seat tube bottle mount, and one that is mounted higher, clearing the FD altogether. They gotta go somewhere, and ST mount effects where the DT mount is, on a regular diamond frame. You can't have them both down low or they'll get in each others way. So one has to be higher than the other. The Bombadil places the DT bottle mount up higher than on my Franklin that allows for a lower DT mount. The original Clem had it high ST mount, low DT mount, like my Franklin.

I can't say I really care either way, I only notice it when I change bikes. If one really wants to change them around Wolftooth sells the B-Rad mounts. I believe on the Bombadil I used an old valve nut as a washer on the bottom hole on a particular bottle cage that sat very flush and needed just a bit of extra clearance.

[Johnny Alien]

As a test I took one of those problem solver water bottle mounts that I remembered I had for my wife's bike and mounted it higher up on my Clem and my legs 100% kept hitting the water bottle. It didn't work for me. There might be some sweet spot between the lower position and the higher place I put it but that's more experimenting than I was prepared to do. :)

[Mark V]

I am thinking the ST bosses are low so they are always the same distance from the BB. That way bottle bosses can be brazed in before the frame is built. And there's no need to "worry" how long the ST will be.

I skimmed through the most recent  Taiwan factory bike build photos to see if the bosses are NOT there after frame is fitted together.  It looked like to me the bosses were always present, so the bosses were brazed in before frame assembly.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/files/000077810024_791d774b-0d9e-4b91-8cfb-5be6b97b59e7_1000x.jpg?v=1726785548

two cents worth from the internets - so you know what it's really worth....

mark v.

RoadUno Rider (well, not at the moment.... i'm typing on a computer... but you get what i mean)

[Bill Lindsay]

The OP believes there is an obvious design flaw that the seat tube water bottle isn't more easily accessible on lots of bikes.  

This confuses me. To those who need/want a higher mounted seat tube water bottle on their bikes: what exactly is the use case?  

a. I run ONLY a seat tube water bottle for some really good reason, and I therefor it should be super accessible, because it's my only source of ride-hydration

b. I run two different drinks and have to have easy access at BOTH to manage my hydration strategy

c. I always drink from the seat tube bottle FIRST for some really good reason, and use the down tube bottle as the back up, so the seat tube bottle needs to be super accessible 

d. some other use case

For me, and I assumed for most other cyclists, the seat tube bottle is not for drinking.  The down tube bottle is for drinking.  When the down tube bottle is empty, then I move the seat tube bottle to the down tube, and THEN that bottle is for drinking.  In other words, it's a STORAGE location, not an ACCESSIBILITY location, for my use-case.  When I grab for a bottle, 19 out of 20 times it's the down tube bottle.  I only grab the seat tube bottle when it's time to swap.  For storage, I prefer efficiency, and down the seat tube gets it out of the way and that makes sense to me.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Steven Sweedler]

I never realized I was doing it so differently. I drink out of my seat tube mounted bottle and when its empty I refill it with a stainless bottle that is on my downtube. To me it seems much easier to access the bottle on the seat tube. Here is a pic. 

Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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[Michael Baquerizo]

Hey Bill -

If you read my original post I make it clear that despite my understanding of the situation i concede that am most likely wrong, but my question had nothing to do with the bottle being more 'easily accessible', just about its positioning aesthetically and perhaps even functionally, as if it straddles the FD clamp it requires one more thing to mount (washers to raise ) So it's kind of an inaccurate recounting to say that 'The OP believes there is an obvious design flaw'

Perhaps you're conflating lower on the frame with 'more easily accessible' and i'm not CERTAIN that's the case. surely too close to the top tube and the bottle would be impossible to get, but there's a middle ground between as low as possible and the aforementioned 'too close to the seat tube'. To ME, that middle ground seems like it'd be easier to access, as it's closer to ones reach than lower would be.

 A lot of the accounts from bike owners and bike viewers seem to suggest similar confusion about why sometimes it's above the clamp area, sometimes it's below. your own account suggests that it might as well be ABOVE the derailleur clamp area, as it isn't a drinking water position, it's a stored water position. Therefore, more easily accessible (which i conflate with being closer to ones reach) 

i prefer the suggestions that weight lower on the frame is ideal (not actually sure if its true but it seems to make physical sense) and also the allowance for frame bags (in this day and age especially, less so when the hillborne that i'm referencing was originally created) AND the idea that your legs thin out the closer they get to the ankle.

I hope that helps with some of your confusion. 

[Mark V]

I'm with Steven - well, not physically. He'd have to be in Plymouth, MI. But he's in NH.

But bottle wise, I mostly grab the ST bottle.... unless I'm on my fixed gear (Surly SteamRoller), then I kinda gotta use the DT bottle.... and I had to add those bosses, as the bike only came with ST bosses for a bottle.

I guess the Surly Folks were thinking - who's gonna ride fixed more than 10 miles? But I do long 'burb to Detroit City and back, so for the long stretches through the suburbs, I need a couple bottles. And I can't manage a ST bottle cycling fixed.

cheers.

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[Michael Baquerizo]

Steven - I suspect that just comes down to reflex, which bottle actually has water in it, and obviously, preference. I wouldn't expect there to be any other way to measure that reality.

Your bike does sort of suggest what I thought makes more sense (but could be totally wrong about, again, for the record) that higher makes more functional and aesthetic sense. Bottles seem to exist on similar levels, and the seat tube bottle is really nowhere near your derailleur clamp (albeit yours is pretty low due to your teeny big ring)

[Ray Varella]

I just checked the bikes in my stable and none of them have the water bottle bosses low enough to interfere with a seat tube mounted bottle. 

53 cm frames built over a decade ago. 

Is it possible that the frames in question have been built more recently and coincide with the advent of 1x drivetrains and the location hasn’t been an issue or is this more pervasive and I’ve just been lucky?

Ray

[Bill Lindsay]

That does reduce my confusion.  I was focused on your suspicion that down-low was so obviously a design flaw, and failed to absorb your certainty that your suspicion was wrong.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Patrick Moore]

Perhaps Mark and Stephen are young and limber, but me, man, it's a lot easier to reach the down tube bottle than to reach between my legs and grab the seat tube bottle. Not that this makes a big practical difference, since I'm quite happy to stop when I drink, but certainly, while drinking on-bike the dt bottle is much easier to reach.

Patrick Moore, old and stiff and thirsty in ABQ, NM. [Just had a short but fun ride on the 1999 Joe fixed road custom pushing the 76" gear against WSW at 20 to 30 in the hooks, and then spinning merrily back in the opposite direction on the ramps. But I naturally reach for the dt bottle on freewheel bikes, too. And at 14% and windy, even at 80*F you dry out fast.]

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Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[Michael Baquerizo]

Bill - your stable of bikes, Rivendell or otherwise is pretty enviable. Your personality, (the internet one, at least) less so.

[Bill Lindsay]

Michael

That's perfectly fair and I'll own it.  Thanks for saying it so succinctly.  Last week I met a lister down at Fieldwork Brewery in Berkeley to sell them a part, and over a couple pints this lister and I had a long discussion of this and that.  One of the topics was me being a dick on lists.  It's kind of complicated.  I will say you aren't wrong, and I'm not particularly proud of it.  I work on it and I think I'm reasonably nice in person.  

tl/dr but back on-topic of water bottles

My multiple choice about the seat tube use case was sincere, and at least one responder here said they are indeed "choice A" and only run the seat tube bottle, which is fascinating to me.  

Stepping back, I applaud anybody dwelling on a small bike detail and asking "why do they do this little thing this way?"  When I posted my smart aleck multiple choice I assumed (without knowing for sure) that maybe half the bikes in my garage would have this low-slung straddling seat tube bottle placement.  In between smart aleck posts I went and did an inventory in my garage.  There are 8 single bikes that have both a front derailer and seat tube bottle bolts.  Only ONE of the 8 have the bolts straddling the FD, and that's my RoadUno, which I found pretty funny to me for a few reasons.  I used a King Cage, and so it didn't interfere with the FD and didn't require washers.  The other 7 have them up high, and I contemplated for a while...and I agree with you: up high looks better.  I admit that I don't have a clue why Grant (or Will) spec'd them low on the RoadUno.  It's a funny looking machine for a ton of reasons, so the funny looking bottle placement is lost in the noise of being funny looking.  Regardless, this topic showed me I don't know anything about bottle placement in frame design and the world would have continued on its axis had I not responded at all on this thread and just read posts and tried to learn something for a change.  If I had a Time Machine, I'd go back and do that.  

Bill

[Richard Borneman]

Timely post. I was wondering why the bottle mounts have been moved down so low. Serves no useful purpose that I can see. I grab whatever bottle has  water in it. I have a few older Toyo built frames and a first gen Sam with normal height bottles. Newer Roadini is 2 1/2" lower. I don't buy the frame bag reason. If your legs are rubbing the water bottles you have issues. Will try to post some photos when I can figure how to resize with this new (Mac) computer. 

All my fames are tall 60-64cm. I am tall. Don't like having to bend over to get a bottle out of the cage. 

Side note. Also don't care for the bottle mounts on the Platy frame. Should be to the ST or top of the down tube for convenient use. I have to bend way over to get the bottle.  YMMV

[Bill Lindsay]

"Sam with normal height bottles. Newer Roadini is 2 1/2" lower"

Let me suggest a made-up design feature on your newer (Large) Roadini:  Imagine if they put three water bottle bolts instead of two (low, middle, high), giving you the choice to install the cage on low-middle -OR- middle-high.  Would that extra unused bolt annoy you?  Or would you welcome it to get the choice of positioning?  I think it would be kind of cool.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[John Dewey]

To my eye, bottles always ought to form a peak...like the roof of a house. I'm sure Frenchies must have a name for this.

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[Eric Floden]

"circumflectory"??

[Matthew Williams]

The bosses/cages are mounted low on the tubes so you can remove the bottles. 

If the cages were higher up on the tubes, you couldn’t get your bottle in and out of the cage!

[Jay Lonner]

Bill, 

I appreciate your online persona and believe (perhaps naively) that I discern an almost Socratic intent behind some of your more pointed commentary. We’re all works in progress of course, but for what it’s worth I wouldn’t put too much effort into accommodating the sensibilities of internet randos. (As an internet rando myself I recognize the contradiction inherent in that statement, but I’ll follow my own advice and not worry about it.)

Torn on whether it’d be preferable to send this to you privately, but I figure a public callout merits a public response.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

Sent from my Atari 400

On Sep 22, 2024, at 6:14 AM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

Michael

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[Eric Floden]

Completely with Jay 

EricF

[Ryan]

I like Jay's characterization of Bill's style as Socratic...very apt

I used to think Bill could be a bit abrasive as well, but his depth of technical knowledge is matched by his impressive stable of bikes that he actually rides....and I know he did and maybe still does do such pro-bono things as coach mountain-bike racing. I was also impressed that he graciously and publicly admitted that he can come across as somewhat  harsh. That being said, if for some reason Bill abandoned RWB Owners bunch, I think our community would be the poorer for it. I for one would miss his insightful posts and dry wit.

Ryan in Winnipeg, MB

[Nick Payne]

The lower the better, is my opinion. I ride quite large frames - 61cm if the top tube is horizontal - and on several of my frames I'm limited in the sizes of the bottle I can carry in the seat tube bottle cage, as if I try to carry a larger bottle (eg 750ml), the inside of my knees hit the bottle because of its additional height.

Nick Payne

[Bill Lindsay]

"if for some reason Bill abandoned RWB Owners bunch"

LOL.  I'm leaving feet first.  Bet on that.  

TRIVIA Question:  If you know the answer, keep it to yourself for a little bit.  If you don't know, go look it up.  It probably will surprise you.  

Q:  Water bottle bolts on "all" bicycles are the same spacing.  Any water bottle cage will fit on any frame with bolts.  Who invented that bolt spacing?  

BL in EC

[Garth]

My first reply was in regard to the preferred placement of the DT bottle mounts as I don't use the seat tube mount for riding access, just carrying. I'm tall also and yes, my knees can at times brush a tall bottle. I resorted to using a standard bottle at one time, then just went to the bottom DT mount all the time instead, relegating the ST mount for a small narrow bag that fits in a bottle cage.  As I mentioned, Wolftooth makes B-RAD adapters that you can move a cage up or down. If you really wanted to move the bottles use two and rearrange to your liking. Made of aluminum. 

https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/products/b-rad-bottle-relocation-and-accessory-device?variant=27315032837

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0230/9291/files/INSTRUCTIONS_BASE_2.pdf?219

I suspect most Riv frames with the megastays can take a large mounted bottle behind the ST, even with fenders. Even a pump of course. Even my Franklin with 18" chainstays I carry a full Topeak Road Morph behind the ST.

[Richard Borneman]

Here are a few photos of my bikes. Top is a current Roadini with the super low mount. A Toyo Atlantis and Ram are the other two. Never had any trouble getting a bottle out of the ST cage. Regular or tall ones. I was looking down at my knees while riding my Sam yesterday. Had at least 1 1/2" clearance. The low mounted cage seems like a dumb idea to me.

It's like an answer to a question nobody ever asked.

Richard

[Richard Borneman]

First Generation Sam. The bike I ride most of the time.

[Brian Turner]

Here’s how I had to handle the seat tube bottle cage mounting plate on my 54.5 cm Toyo Atlantis. Spacing it out would’ve placed it too close to the down tube cage, so I butchered it with a Dremel:

[John Bokman]

Quite the collection, Richard!  I'm confident I'm not the only one who would like to see more photos of those gorgeous bikes.

John

[Dan Rogers]

From what I've gathered through the years, it's to keep weight low & also to make it so there's enough room to insert/remove a water bottle, especially on shorter/smaller frames. I've had to put derailleur clamps over bottle cage bosses quite a few times, but a lot of the time you can find a derailleur that mounts higher or lower than the bosses to make it work properly without blocking them off.
Maybe this is an incorrect assumption, but it makes sense to me! 🤷‍♂️

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Michael Baquerizo <mbaqu...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Sep 20, 2024, 7:01 AM
Subject: [RBW] (perhaps) dumb question time (bottle bosses)
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>

i'm ready for the answer to be so obvious that I assume this is a dumb question. 

So often, on many bike frame, but also on Riv's - the bottle bosses on the seat tube straddle where the derailleur clamp would go. 

however, almost AS often as I see this, I also see plenty of real estate for them to exist ABOVE said clamp area, where they'd no doubt be more easily accessed by a rider.

why? it seems so obviously a design flaw, but surely I'M the one in the wrong.

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[Michael Baquerizo]

Richard - your photos perfectly illustrate my beef. The Roadini's cages don't look all that great. The others make a lot more visual sense.

Function, above my pay grade.

[Doug H.]

My Clem has three water bottle bolts on the downtube to allow for installation at a higher or lower location. I prefer the lower one on my Clem but it is nice to have the choice. Note that the Clem does not have a seat tube bottle mount. I use a Randi Jo bartender pouch for my primary bottle. 

Doug