Cantilevers or Direct Mount-Centerpulls

[Kyle Cotchett]

Hey all,

Just swooped up an old bleriot that I am going to be bringing to a local frame builder to do some mods to for racks and mounted brakes. I am looking to set this one up as a touring bike and torn between having cantilever or centerpull brake posts installed. Any thoughts from folks who have ridden both?

Kyle

[Steven Sweedler]

My vote is for cantilevers 

Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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[Patrick Moore]

Steven: I'm curious about your reasons. I'm not contradicting, just asking because I'd like to know any secrets for setting up cantilevers properly. In fact, among the best brakes all around that I ever used -- mixing power and modulation and "feel" -- were IRD long-arms set up with salmons on my 2010 Sam Hill, but then the Riv staff installed and adjusted those. Drop bar levers. Me, I've never been able to get more than "acceptable" braking with cantis of any sort and drop bar levers.

I had my 2020 Matthews built for cantilevers in order to clear 42 mm tires with fenders, but I sometimes wonder if I would not have done better to have had pivots added for centerpulls which, IME, are much easier to set up and which (again, IME), stop more "powerfully."

At first I used Tektro CR 720s; I got rid of the violent squeal and shudder by radical pad toe-in, and after that they were "acceptable." I replaced those with Pauls which allowed a more normal toe-in without squeal or shudder and which were perhaps a wee bit stronger. Most recently I swapped out the steel Shimano headset mount housing stop in the front for a much more expensive RH one, and that did improve front braking "strength." Now the brakes are "quite adequate" but not as good as good single pivots or the backing-plate centerpulls I've used -- Mafacs, Weinmanns, Tourneys, Dura Ace.* And among the worst brakes I ever had were the Mafac cantilevers (even tried the longer-arm tandem model on the front) on an old Herse -- despite salmon pads and a lot of time fiddling with cable angles.

So, please explain the reason for your preference, and let us know of any secrets for setting up cantilvers for optimum performance. Perhaps you have in mind cantilevers with "flat bar" levers?

Again: Not arguing! Seeking knowledge!

Thanks.

* I was told -- Olof Stroh, were did you go? -- that Shimano made Dura Ace centerpulls for about 6 months in 1976, and I owned a pair. Someone had hand polished them to a Rene Herse-like gleam, but they didn't work any better than the Tourneys; both worked "well" but not "exceptionally well."

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[vernon brooks]

I just had some similar modifications done on my wife’s Rambouillet that I’ll be building for her later this year. All of the bikes that I’ve owned in my adult life have been cantilever so it may be that I’m simply a creature of habit. I will say it is nice not having to work around the front brake if you’re intending to use a rack that mounts to the center hole on fork crown. In the end it all comes down to preference and intention. A brake is a brake and if you play around with it enough you’ll likely get the same result.

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[Steven Sweedler]

Patrick, when I sold a Raleigh International frame more than a decade ago, I committed to cantis only. The centerpulls on the Int. were not confidence inspiring on some of my local steep descents. I used Tektro 720’s, Paul Neo Retros and Shimano BR MC 70s. I haveused the MC 70s on at least 10 bikes for myself and friends and am very satidfied. The large KS pads last a few years and I get quiet strong braking. For the past few weeks I have been riding  some very steep dirt tracks  here in SW Portugal and had no issues. I bought a decent supply before prices crept up and have little interest in trying something else. An all too common attitude I adopt. I did switch to the shorter KS pads so the front brake opens all the way without hitting the fork blades. 

Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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[iamkeith]

Would you gain any tire/fender clearace advantage by choosing cantilevers?  Or will the chainstays end up being the thing that determines max size?

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks; so just long-term and successful experience.

Aside: If you were to share ride photos from Portugal, I doubt people would complain.

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[Kyle Cotchett]

good question. I would think the brakes would play a part, but the previous owner was running paul center pulls and 48s - I don't think the frame could take any larger. Seems to be part of our good fortune of people making products around larger tires these days. 

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KYLE V. COTCHETT

An urban planner of sorts

kyleco...@gmail.com

(650) 863-0925 

[christian poppell]

Hey Kyle! 

I have used cantilevers and direct mounted centerpulls (MAFAC RAID with new Rene Herse hardware). If I could do it over I would have installed cantilevers. The downsides for centerpulls for me are modulation, fender fitting, and braze on locations on the fork. 

Modulation - The MAFAC RAID brakes feel more squishy to me, even after adding a brake booster to the rear. Also, despite my best efforts, I have not been able to eliminate the howling from the rear brake. I threw everything at them, new bushings, toe in washers, salmon pads, black compound pads, sanded and filed the pads, sanded the rims, rode and braked in the rain and in the dirt. Nothing has stopped the howl. 

Fender fitting - There would be a lot more room to mount fenders and large tires with cantilevers. Honjo h80s rub on the inside of the centerpull arms. If you want to go above 42mm tire with fenders I would go cantilever.

Post location on the fork - Not a deal breaker but the posts are mounted really close to the fork crown. Its more of an aesthetic thing for me. In fact, its probably better as it moves the posts into the HAZ of the fork crown/blade joint

Brian Chapman has some of the best reference images for how large tires, large fenders, and direct mount centerpulls should look. https://www.flickr.com/photos/chapmancycles/35900124245/in/photostream/

Which CPs are you considering and what is your max tire size? Will you be using fenders? are you planning on mounting anything to the brake studs (racks, lights etc) ?

Good Luck! 

Christian

Phoenix, AZ

[Kyle Cotchett]

Hey Christian thanks for all your thoughts! To answer a couple of your questions:

Which CPs are you considering and what is your max tire size? 

I was looking at the Rene Herse cps. I'd be looking to run 44's, but 42's seem to be more intended for the Bleriot. The Rene Herse are for sure pricey, and I will be spending a bit as it is with the frame builder mods. However, they state they have the clearance for 42s and fenders. I have a pair of dia-compe canti's I love on another bicycle, so much so I put a pair on my girlfriend's bicycle. On that note: @Patrick - I've gotten pretty comfy now at setting up canti's with drop bars. Specifically the dia-comps. It's all about getting that straddle wire set up in the right position. I have done it poorly on other pairs of cantis and been called out by real mechanics haha.

Will you be using fenders? 

Potentially. I see most of these tours happening in summer and hopefully some that require a flight in the nearish future. I'd probably snag a pair of SKS for easy mounting and peace of mind when flying. not so much of a big deal if my plastic fenders get damaged instead of banging up a nice pair of honjos!

Are you planning on mounting anything to the brake studs (racks, lights etc)?

If I did canti's I would likely get a Nitto M12 and attach it to the brakes. I do plan on having low rider pannier attachments put on for a nitto s rack.

Kyle

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[Brent Knepper]

I have a bleriot with paul centerpulls and it clears 42s with fenders, or 48s without, but I too would prefer it to have cantis! the pauls are my only centerpull experience, and though they stopped well I always observed a lot of squishiness at the lever as well- which I've since reduced a lot of that squish with beefier/more rigid cable hangers, linear brake housing with filed flat ends, and even shimming the housing to close up gaps the cable stops

I can now see the remaining squish is the actually the power of the brakes compressing brake pads a lot. that's pretty cool when ya think of the modulation aspect, but my other bike with cantis and 48s has just as much braking power without all tinkering ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ time saved on brake tinkering just went into drivetrain tinkering but hey waddayagonnado

-Brent shruggin in chicago

[John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ]

Kyle said  " I was looking at the Rene Herse cps."  

I have the RH CP's and I don't think they are all they are advertised and are not worth their high price.

The pads are extremely difficult to adjust and RH does not provide a tool to hold them in place during adjustment

The brakes don't seem much better than the Dia Comp 610/750s I used on another bike.

The 'quick release' design, squeeze the return spring arm and move it off the caliper, is an invitation to prick your fingers and hand.  

RH does not sell the small washer for the straddle cable movement, unless you pay $115 for a complete hardware set.

IMHO, I would use a pair of Dia Compes, just buy new springs.  Other posters have used the their existing bolt on ones and removed the arms from the yoke.  RBW could probably tell you which model, 610 or 750, fits the Beloit.

If you are using 42/44 mm tires, you will need a 62mm wide fender to obtain the 1.4 ratio of fender width/tire width Jan Heine recommends.  A 62mm fender requires indenting at the fork crown and possible seatstays.   A 38mm tire and a 52mm fender gives an adequate 1.37 ratio and should clear the fork crown.

Just my 2c

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Josiah Anderson]

I want to jump in here on one of my pet issues: "squishy" brakes are not a problem provided they still stop well, and squish can be indicative of good braking. If they feel stiff, all that means is that you don't have as much mechanical advantage as you could, because of design or setup. If more mechanical advantage is added, the pads and possibly the calipers WILL squish, no matter what. It will feel "mushy" and there will be more power. The best brakes I've ever used were v-brakes operated by short-pull levers, which required very true wheels and felt extremely soft, but provided truly impressive braking thanks to the high MA at both the lever and brake. That was the setup that taught me that squishy brakes can be good. 

Soft-feeling brakes also often allow for better modulation than a binary "on-off" brake feeling. In a very stiff-feeling brake system, there is minimal difference in braking power between just barely engaging the brake and yanking as hard as you can, because the lever stops moving in a very defined spot and no amount of force that human hands can apply will move it farther, so the pads don't grip the rim any harder either. That is the definition of a "stiff" feel; you can't get around that, only improve it with more MA (and a softer brake feel). This means that the initial "bite" needs to be very strong, which is the opposite of what I want from a brake. I want to have control over exactly how much braking I get, from "very little" to "STOP RIGHT NOW" and everywhere in between. Good centerpulls absolutely can provide that, and the "squish" that you may feel is simply the feeling of good modulation.

However, if the "soft" feeling is from the caliper flexing (like Tektro 559s do), that is not desirable, because the lever travel is just moving the brake and not the pads. Those brakes have a relatively low MA (and low usefulness as brakes) because if it were higher they would flex even worse. Maybe this phenomenon is the root of the misunderstanding; if squishy long-reach-sidepulls were the only soft-feeling brakes I'd experienced, then I would probably shoot for stiffness too.

I hope that all makes sense and is helpful.

Josiah Anderson

Missoula MT

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[Kyle Cotchett]

Just an update - went with cantis! now i have to go buy the rest of the bicycle...

KYLE V. COTCHETT

kyleco...@gmail.com

(650) 863-0925 

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KYLE V. COTCHETT

kyleco...@gmail.com

(650) 863-0925 

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[Dan Sullivan]

That’s a beaut. Happy trails!