Dialing in a Brooks Saddle

[Jay]

Next week I'll be throwing a leg over a Roadini for the first time (I posted a couple weeks ago about the frame I ordered) and I thought I was set on my saddle, but decided yesterday I need to try something very different.  

A little bit of background before I get to my question...

When I started cycling around 20 years ago I had Brooks B17 on my road bike (custom geometry, not too aggressive) and a Masi commuter bike.  It was a while ago so I can't recall what I liked about them, and why I eventually stopped using them, but I do recall one memory...I always used padded bib shorts (still do) and one day in the winter I went for a 2hr ride and only realized when I got home that I just had on my underwear and tights.  In at least that way for me at that time, the saddle was that comfortable.

Since that time I've used a lot of plastic saddles from Fizik, Selle Italia and the latest is a Prologo (147mm wide, with a bit of padding).  I used this saddle on two bikes the last 4 months and it was a noticeable improvement over the Selle Italia saddles I was using previously.  I thought this is what I would use on the Roadini (and still may, in the long run).  But when I use it on my Salsa Fargo (bar level with saddle) and ride for 2+ hours, I get friction and general discomfort.  And can I ride without padded bib shorts?  Heck no, I can't even go around my block without bibs when using this saddle.

To get to my point, I ordered a B17 in Honey to try out on my Roadini.  I'm getting it tomorrow and I'm going to try it on my Fargo (nice weather for next little while).  I know that overall I need to be patient, only change one thing at a time, and only small adjustments.

My thinking, where I wanted to get your input, is that I would be set up the bike so saddle and bars are level, and will likely start with the saddle level (from what I recall this will have the rear of the saddle where my sit bones are located, pointed down a bit, but that's how my Prologo is today and I can ride in the drops and take my hands off and I'm balanced...so I think I'll start there and see how it goes).

Any other words of wisdom that I can consider?  Thanks in advance.

[Joe Bernard]

1. I think a level B17 is a mistake, you end up with the rear portion sloping down and forcing your wrists into the bars. My B17s (it's all I ride) start with the rear perfectly flat and the nose up. It will feel awkward at first but give it a few miles before deciding it's too front-high. 

2. Padded shorts always made me miserable, then one day I read a Grant article saying that added material in saddle and/or shorts contributes to friction which increases pain. I ditched the padding and my B17 saddles basically disappear when riding, I simply don't think about them. 

Joe Bernard 

[Tony Lockhart]

Hi Jay,

Best words of wisdom I can provide is to get tons of saddle time and adjust every 3-5 miles...it'll be dialed in before you know it. Also, keep your Brooks waxed, don't let it get soaked, only a quarter turn to tighten them up (loosen a smidge before you tighten). Yeah, that's all I've got. 

My Leo has a B17 Pro in black, and my Sam has the same but in honey. Was just thinking I'd swap since dark gold and tan sidewalls look great with brown saddles. Either option is a win/win because those saddles are great. Happy trails,

Tony

On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 7:27:00 PM UTC-8 Jay wrote:

[Steven Sweedler]

FWIW my bikes are set up with B-17 s level and  with the bars level to the saddle, works for me. 

Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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[Ron Mc]

My bikes with B-17 are semi upright.  

My bikes with level saddle/stem and drop bars are Swallow or Pro

[Richard Rose]

Jay, my experience only…

I read on the Analog site I think, that a B17 properly adjusted does not need a break in to be comfortable. I concur. My first B17 may have come to me with a few miles on it but it was sublimely comfortable as soon as I got the nose up. Probably important to note that I am bolt upright Lon my Clem with Bosco bar higher than the saddle by at least a couple of inches. Based on that experience I ordered a brand new B17 for my Gus. I replicated my position including nose up & that is even more comfortable. I do not know if the nose up thing works on a more road oriented position especially with drops? And, I have not worn padded shorts in a long time. 100% merino boxers for me. Prior to being gifted the first B17 I had a B67 on the Clem. It was very good but when I reluctantly tried the B17 I never looked back.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 30, 2024, at 10:27 PM, Jay <jason....@gmail.com> wrote:

Next week I'll be throwing a leg over a Roadini for the first time (I posted a couple weeks ago about the frame I ordered) and I thought I was set on my saddle, but decided yesterday I need to try something very different.  

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[Doug H.]

I too have tried B17s level and it doesn't work for me. The nose up slightly is my preferred setting. It looks odd to my eyes when I'm not on the bike and I've seen them turned up much farther than I would like. It seems that there are many variations of bums and you have to adjust to your comfort. Let us know how you like the Roadini!

Doug

[Eric Daume]

My technique for dialing in a Brooks:

1. Loosen seat post bolt

2. Remove Brooks saddle

3. Replace with any other plastic saddle I happen to have nearby

4. Enjoy the better comfort, less slipperiness, lighter weight, and zero maintenance.

YMMV :)

Eric

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[Steven Sweedler]

My first leather saddle was a Brooks Swallow, rode Bikecentennial on it, when the rail broke in the early 90’s I switched to Pro’s , but have now been on B-17s for at least 20 years, all on bikes w/drop bars. 

Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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[alan lavine]

Hi Jay,

Your story sounds familiar. Twenty years ago, I was a dedicated Brooks man...loved the leather idea, the color, the aging, etc. And mine too, were comfortable right out of the box. N.B.  I have always been a fan of padded bibs and chamois cream.

Then the birthdays started to accumulate and my handlebars mysteriously levitated higher and closer, this changed things. And my dermatologist reminded me that as we age, the skin thins and we lose subcutaneous fat...and I'm a skinny butt guy to begin with. Ultimately, after an infinite numbers of adjustments, I had to give up two beautifully aged and broken in honey tan saddles.

As an aside, as I have lost some flexibility with age, and gained some degenerative spinal changes, what helped me was having a lower than predicted saddle height and a smaller saddle offset w/r to the BB. This may or may not help you.

Not to be pessimistic, but age changes everything. But you should definitely give a shot, trying all posible positions and angles. Best of luck ! 

Alan in NYC, adjusting to aging as. best I can.

[Patrick Moore]

I was going to speak along similar lines, perhaps not as forthrightly. But I found angle more critical on Brookses for some reason than on any other saddle, including other leather makes.

After trying several B 17s, a B 17N, a Champion Flyer, and a Pro, the one Brooks that I found comfortable (very comfortable except for tilt adjustment) was the Pro -- the others chafed or pressed or obtruded. I positioned the Pro tilted slightly up on a bike with drop bar below saddle. But I could never get the tilt just right, and I had a rather nice seatpost with separate angle adjustment bolt that allowed stepless adjustment. With the slippery surface I was either sliding forward onto the bar or feeling pressure, and after I had commuted on it for 18 or 24 months or so I went back to original issue Flites which I now have on all my bikes.

I almost never ride in padded shorts and the lined shorts I occasionally use have very thin chamoises or (1 pair) a very thin synthetic layer just to prevent seam chafing -- I hate thick pads. 

[Kim H.]

I believe that it all depends on your riding posture in the angle of which your pelvis and your seat bones rest on the saddle. See attachment diagram.

It is a personal choice and preference as much as one's bum is different from the next person's.

I ride in an upright riding position my Clem with my B66S saddle's nose titled up slightly. I wear padded cycling shorts.

Kim Hetzel

[Chris Halasz]

I've owned many B17 saddles, and there is variability, and in my experience, less variability in the Special than in the Standard. So if you don't like the B17 you try, it may just be you don't like *that* particular B17. 

I've always thought that Brooks should do a little pressure test mid-way on the saddle to address the variability in the leather. In my experience, some seem made for more robust torsos, and some for much less. I regret selling a just right one to a very nice person here in town, but am more pleased to know how well it suits him. 

For starters, I always adjust a B17 to nose up by a tip of the thumb thickness at the back from level. That gets me good enough. 

If further micro-adjustment is needed, I have a small round magnet that Riv provided with my Hobson Zingo (is that right?) Allen key that remains on the bike's head tube and then temporarily set my 4 or 5mm key handy and (ideally) have a seat post with a fore and aft screw for the adjustment. 

I recall an old video of Eddy Merckx micro adjusting his saddle height while out on a ride. Makes me feel just like Eddy. 

- Chris 

[Jay]

Thanks for all the wisdom.  And the humour (Eric).

I installed the saddle and tinkered with initial set up in my basement.  Proceeded to go out for ride one, around the block.  These very short rides tell me if I'm way off.  I was.  Made adjustments about five more times, going around my block once or twice each time.  Felt better, but never comfortable.  Went out for a 10k ride.  Stopped twice to adjust.  I had the saddle level in the back, which puts the nose up (as you know).  That had me neither sliding forward or backward, but it wasn't comfortable.  I felt like the tilt was right (no slide), height was good (decent extension at bottom of stroke), and I'm guessing fore/aft was good...no leg pain. Hard to say what was uncomfortable; I felt the skirt of the saddle, and general discomfort around the sit bones (not the sit bone pin-point area itself).  

When I ride my Prologo (147mm wide) I am very comfortable for 1-2 hours, then it slowly becomes uncomfortable (friction/chafing).  The Prologo was comfortable from ride one (after the small adjustments per my routine).  On my Fargo, where I'm riding it like a drop-bar mountain bike on 'green' trails in my area, I stand a lot, and I can ride long without discomfort.  Long road rides, however, not so good.  Same saddle on my road bike, bit better at the 2-3hr mark.

Not sure where to go from here!  I don't think I'll bring the saddle for the Roadini fitting, but I won't get rid of it.  We'll see how this unfolds :-)

[Will Boericke]

To my mind, if you have been comfortable on plastic saddles (which are most of my saddles), you are not going to be comfy on a B17.  Too wide.  I have leather saddles on my commuters mostly so I don't have to wear padded shorts, and the only Brooks saddles I get on with are Professionals or other narrow models (Swift, Swallow, etc).

Many of my friends are quite devoted to Selle Anatomica.  Perhaps that would be worth a try as well.  Though again, not a plastic-saddle-like feel at all.

Will 

[Mojo]

Jay,

Here is my data point FWIW. I adjust my B17s to be nose up higher than back-of-saddle up. In other words, my saddle has less of a nose-up position less than the back flat position discussed here, creating a hammock shape, but again with the nose a bit higher than the back.

I find B17s quite comfortable for day riding, but it literally wears on me on multiday tours. I have found the Berthoud Aspin, 157mm width, to be much more comfortable and more expensive. The WTB Pure, 148mm width, does well for day rides and costs so much less. Both tilt adjusted as described above.

Joe in GJT 

[Brian Turner]

I'm perfectly comfortable on B17s, and always have been... but I've recently (past 2-3 years) switched to Berthoud saddles. I think one of the issues Brooks saddles can have is that there seem to be inconsistencies in the quality and thickness of the leather used. I'm still using a 15 year old B17 Special that is very comfortable and still holding up strong, but I've had a couple other B17s come and go since I first purchased this one. I guess this one was just an especially good one, or whatever. You'll pay more for other brands like Berthoud or Ideale but the leather is noticeably better quality than what I've found on Brooks. A purely subjective data point, but I've never bothered with padded shorts or chamois. I wear regular shorts or pants with merino boxers no matter what type of ride or ride length.

-Brian

Lex KY

[Jay]

I've been thinking a lot about saddles since yesterday's experiment.  I was reading the articles on bike.bikegremlin.com and I had some good take-away's.  

For one, I re-measured my sit bone width, and it was 115mm (I'm 155 pounds, 32" waist and 6'0, so I have a skinny butt!).  

Two: I think what's always been odd about me is how I sit on a saddle.  Although I'm flexible (can easily bend over and touch the floor, almost palms on the floor), I don't like an aero position because I have a long-term issue with my cervical spine.  It's much better, but I just prefer more upright than your typical roadie (I would think I'm around 55 degree spine angle).  I can't explain how I sit on the saddle but a couple of bike fitters have made general comments (that I can't recall).

Third and key for me, is saddle shape.  I've had the best luck on flat saddles tail to tip (not wavy), t-shaped, and flat curvature from side to side.  And if they have a cut out, it needs to be very small and not have edges that can dig into me.

When I sit on a saddle that is too wide (I think my 147mm is too wide), I'm sitting forward, because my legs can't clear at the bottom of the pedal stroke.  Add a wide cut out to that (that is widest in the middle of the saddle) and I'm sitting on the widest part of the cut-out, which may dig into me.  Basically, I want my sit bones on the widest/flattest part of the saddle.

If I was very upright, a B17 might work, but that's not how I ride (in particular with drop bars).  In the drops (love flared drops) I'm probably 45-50 spine angle, on the tops maybe 60.

I'm now going on the hunt for a saddle around 140mm wide, and relatively flat in both directions.  I'll give that a shot and see how it goes!

[Will Boericke]

I like a flat saddle as well - Fizik generally does it for me, specifically the Arione.  Even my leather saddles get tightened when they break in to what I suspect is ideal for other rear ends.

Will

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