Tried and liked: Suntour Cyclone pretzel

[Eric Marth]

Hey gang — I was out for a Sunday ride and stopped to take a picture. I rolled to the side of the road and did not see the culvert, hidden with fresh grass clippings. I tumbled over at low speed. I'm fine! 

When I stood up I noticed my drive-side bar end shifter had rotated 90º. And my derailer hanger and the derailer were bent. I spun the crank while off the bike and it seemed to move okay so I thought I'd give it a go as a single speed. 

I pedaled for a few strokes, then nudged the shifter. It was at that time the derailer turned upside down and inside out, bending into the spokes and throwing the chain. It was really fun!

This is my Hillborne, my most-ridden bike. I'll see if the hanger can be bent but I have a feeling it will require some work from a frame builder. That's a Suntour Cyclone. Fortunately I have five of them (including this one). You might recall the cage tension spring in my previous Cyclone recently failed. This is one of the replacements I picked up. It was in excellent shape but now it's going to the salvage bin. 

While I was waiting for a ride four people stopped to ask if they could help me. One was a cyclist who said "You need anything?" I replied "I need derailer hanger, a rear mech and a welding torch!"

Hope your weekend rides weren't so mechanically eventful. 

Eric

[D D]

Eric,

Sorry to hear about your misadventure. Thanks for the photo of the pretzel. Did the photo you originally pulled over to take turn out to be worth it?  

Dustin in VA

On Jul 23, 2023, at 3:13 PM, Eric Marth <eric...@gmail.com> wrote:



Hey gang — I was out for a Sunday ride and stopped to take a picture. I rolled to the side of the road and did not see the culvert, hidden with fresh grass clippings. I tumbled over at low speed. I'm fine! 

When I stood up I noticed my drive-side bar end shifter had rotated 90º. And my derailer hanger and the derailer were bent. I spun the crank while off the bike and it seemed to move okay so I thought I'd give it a go as a single speed. 

I pedaled for a few strokes, then nudged the shifter. It was at that time the derailer turned upside down and inside out, bending into the spokes and throwing the chain. It was really fun!

<Screenshot 2023-07-23 at 3.05.28 PM.png>

This is my Hillborne, my most-ridden bike. I'll see if the hanger can be bent but I have a feeling it will require some work from a frame builder. That's a Suntour Cyclone. Fortunately I have five of them (including this one). You might recall the cage tension spring in my previous Cyclone recently failed. This is one of the replacements I picked up. It was in excellent shape but now it's going to the salvage bin. 

While I was waiting for a ride four people stopped to ask if they could help me. One was a cyclist who said "You need anything?" I replied "I need derailer hanger, a rear mech and a welding torch!"

Hope your weekend rides weren't so mechanically eventful. 

Eric

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/1c1291d4-ef36-489c-952b-b11c943b5997n%40googlegroups.com.

[Ted W]

Wow, I’m glad to hear that it was only a minor tumble, but I’m sorry to hear about the derailler… again. That’s quite the pretzel you’ve made, though! I’m not sure I’ve seen such, save for deraillers that went through a far more severe crash.

I might be crazy, but restoring a busted up mech like that actually sounds like it would be a fun challenge. Hope the hanger can be fixed with minimal fuss but I think you may be right, a frame builder might be needed here. It always baffled me that Riv didn’t adopt replaceable hangers at some point along the line.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/C18232A6-2E34-4405-90E7-82566F0B50E9%40gmail.com.

--

Ted Wood < ted.l...@gmail.com >

[jaredwilson]

Yikes, that looks like a mess! 

Glad you're okay and it's now another part of that Sam's history.

Looking forward to seeing your repair updates.

jared

[Eric Marth]

Dustin: To answer your question, hell no! 

Ted: Gonna text the frame builder I know tomorrow. 

Jared: Thanks! I'll share again when I have some updates. 

[J J]

Wow... the most important thing is that you're fine, Eric. The bike stuff is "just" bike stuff, repairable or replaceable.

I saw your subject line and glanced at the pic before reading your story, and at first I thought, "dang, did he get that thing to actually work?!?"

[Eric Marth]

Thanks, Jim. Just a bit of my own patented brand of sarcasm ;) 

The damage is waaay out of proportion to the fall. 

[Brian Turner]

I’m just over here hungry for pretzels.

Seriously though, glad you’re ok, and I’m sorry about your Sam’s hanger. I’m sure it’ll be up and running strong again soon.

On Jul 23, 2023, at 6:57 PM, Eric Marth <eric...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Jim. Just a bit of my own patented brand of sarcasm ;) 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/87040d43-713c-49fd-9bc4-d8f440659e6bn%40googlegroups.com.

[Danny]

Sorry about the hanger damage, but good to hear that you're ok. Even in its pretzelized state, it's a good looking derailer sculpture!

-Danny

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/7C748794-6ECE-4B3D-B9AE-843ECB1CE1F3%40gmail.com.

[Eric Marth]

Thanks Brian and Danny! 

I got the mech freed. The parallelogram housing is twisted, too. The limit screws aren't in plane, they're twisted! It's a huge mess. Still have many good screws, bolts and springs worth saving. Jockey wheels, too. I'll leave it as-is and pull parts from it as needed. 

[Josh C]

Wow. That's wild. Glad you're ok. Bummer about the Sam, that's a beautiful bike.

[JohnS]

Wow Eric, that was a bad one, glad your ok and the Sam is on the mend. Don't forget to check the spokes for nicks, could break easy if they are.

JohnS

[Eric Marth]

Many thanks, John. I'll check out the spokes. 

I've been texting with my local mechanic friend, Andre. We're going to try and bend the hanger and see how close we can get it. Considering a drop out saver from Wheels Mfg. 

If that fails I'll see about having a new dropout installed. I gotta call Will when Riv opens!

[Patrick Moore]

FWIW, I had a similar experience with a Fargo when a stick jammed the rd: the hangar was bent 90* inward (and jammed into the cassette; no single-speeding home). The good news, and the point: a LBS was able to unbend the rd to usable status again. The replacement rd worked fine. Of course, YMMV.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/06edd388-4b9e-4080-8083-da10491e7dcan%40googlegroups.com.

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Patrick Moore]

And: I had Chauncey Matthews use a replaceable hanger when he built the replacement for the Fargo.

[Eric Marth]

Patrick: Sorry about that Fargo but glad to hear it could be repaired. Replaceable hangers seem helpful!

[Eric Marth]

Yesterday I brought the frame to my LBS, Bike Works and handed it over to trusted mechanic Andre. He bent the hanger, aligned the dropouts and aligned the hanger. The hanger alignment tool showed the hanger was in plane with the rim. Amazingly the hole took a derailer bolt just fine. It looks terrible but functionality seemed promising. This was all I cared about.

You can see the hole is terribly elongated. 

 

Here's my wavy hanger.

Fortunately I have a small collection of Cyclones to draw from. The last one I mangled was beautiful old stock. This one here is almost as nice. 

The bike shifted fine in the stand. But on the road and under load the chain skips in the smallest four cogs. 

Tomorrow I'll take it back to Andre and see if he can't finesse it into shape. 

[Eric Marth]

Andre attempted to make some further adjustments, the chain still skips. I tried installing a Deore XT M771 and that was a little bit better but the chain still skips. 

I called Riv and talked to Grant who was eager to see some pictures. Will has a new dropout heading to me by mail, now I just need to find someone who can braze the new dropout on. The framebuilder I know has transitioned from building bikes to chartering boats! 

[Wesley]

Possibly dumb question: have you taken a good look at your chain? It ay be kinked, which would cause skipping gears.

-Wes

[JohnS]

Grant steps up again and delivered the goods! I would love to see their parts stash, box o' frame parts here, forks over there....

JohnS 

[Eric Marth]

Thanks, Wes. Brand new chain, no kinks. Checked it over. Tried another chain as well. 

Today I flattened the dropout in my bench vise. It's slightly improved but still skipping the chain. Had to cantilever some additional bench space to align the dropout with the vise. 

JohnS: Judging by the Riv garage sale pictures and forum member purchase reports I'd say treasures abound! Also Will recently sent me a sweet old Bridgestone poster he found in the attic at Riv. It's from the Grant years (circa 1992, maybe). 

[R. Alexis]

That does not look good. Maybe once you get it into a stand and carefully remove the derailleur and gently realign the hanger you will be fine. The rear der pully cage can probably be bent back into shape. Issue is probably trusting it. Hope things work out. Glad you were not hurt. 

Thanks,

Reginald Alexis

[Ryan]

Yikes! That is too bad but I'm glad you weren't hurt. I know you are very ingenious, but maybe the frame needs to be sent to Riv for repair? Who will no doubt do the repair at a reasonable cost

Which poster? I have the "saddle up on a bridgestone"...my favorite of the Grant-inspired ones...the one with the rider on a roadbike alongside a galloping horse. Can't remember if I bought it from Rivendell or from a friend of mine who built many of my wheels and at one time was a bridgestone dealer and sold me my 1993 X0-1 that I still have

[Eric Marth]

Thanks, Ryan. Yes, I think the cost for the repair would be reasonable. I worry the cost to freight the frame would be a little painful and the time without the bike could be considerable depending on how it shakes out. 

The poster is the MTB countryside illustration, same illustrator who did yours. "Get away fast on a Bridgestone" or something like that. Hills, dirt road, country church. 

[Eric Marth]

Okay, some mild updates. 

I've bent and tweaked the hanger with crescent wrenches at least two dozen times now. Worked on it during the miserable heat wave here and during nicer weather yesterday. During the process I remove the chain and the derailer, tweak the hanger, re-install the chain and derailer, test ride. Repeat. Over and over! Every time I ride the bike the chain skips. 

I've tried aligning by hand and eye. I've used a series of straight edges, trying to reference off the cassette to the face of the derailer hanger where the derailer sits. I can get the straight edges into plane with one another but evidently that's not enough because the chain still jumps. 

I feel like I can finesse this thing back into working order but I have so far been unsuccessful. The hanger is relatively flat considering how mangled it got. It's considerably better than it was. The bolt hole is elongated but fortunately derailer bolts screw in nicely and the threads feel good. Through all my uninstalling/reinstalling the bolts thread in nicely each time. 

One problem is that the guys at the LBS have put their dropout and hanger alignment tools on the bike and they say the tools show things are aligned. But they are also audibly and visibly weary of putting too much torque on the hanger and seem to think it's going to shear off the frame if they look at it funny. I don't think that's going to happen. I talked to Grant about this twice now and he doesn't think that's going to happen, either. He shared an acedote wherein he bent a derailer hanger through 180º of motion several times before the hanger sheared off. I'm not moving mine nearly as much, just a bit at a time. And today I heard Grant Petersen say "Steel is magical." So I'm adding that to my lifetime book of memorable quotes by notable people. 

There's another shop in town but I get bad vibes every time I go in there so I'm going to spare myself and stay away. I know if I go in there it'll end up being a bad scene and I'll regret it. 

I'm open to having a builder try to align the hanger, heat it up and shape it or braze a new dropout onto the frame. But the builder I know and have worked with before on three other bikes (this Hillborne included) has sold his tools and retired. Two other nearby builders haven't returned my messages. 

Now I'm thinking the best next step is to drop > $100 on a derailer hanger alignment tool and try it myself in the home shop. Looking at the Park Tool DAG 2.2. This eliminates the hesitancy of other mechanics (I'm not afraid to wreck the bike) and gives me a useful tool to have forever. 

Full options going forward (as I see them, open to suggestions as always): 

• Buy a gauge and adjust it myself until I'm satisfied or I give up and advance to next option
• Take it to a shop
  • Go-to shop seems afraid to break my hanger, I don't think that's going to happen but they are audibly and visibly weary. 
  • Other shop in town I avoid at all costs and don't want to take my bikes to them
• Get a new dropout welded onto the bike
  • I wouldn't mind doing this but I can't find a builder in my area
  • Contacted three people. One retired, the other two haven't responded. 
• Send it to Rivendell
  • Grant thinks Mark or Antonio can fix the hanger. Cool!
  • Grant said to send the bike stripped down, no fork. How are they going to align and test it to see if the chain jumps? 
  • I don't reaaaally want to freight the bike coast-to-coast twice. Not a dealbreaker, tho. 
  • Grant said if Mark or Antonio can't get it he knows a builder who can do the repair but it could be three months before I get the bike back.
  • This leads me back to...
• Buy a gauge and adjust it myself 

If you've made it this far, wow, you are invested in this repair! Thanks for checking in. I'll post more updates as they develop. 

[Ryan]

And sheep in your poster , if I recall correctly. Very bucolic

I feel you  about the freight. Are there no reputable builders closer to you who could do the repair? In a neighbouring state perhaps?

[Ryan]

Your local shops sound like non-starters, if the one isn't confident and the other is bad juju. Freighting the bike coast-to-coast and back  to Riv  + their labor   sounds like it's not a deal-breaker. Sounds like the west coast is the mecca for framebuilders. I have no idea about the east coast or mid-US. I wonder if you could get a second opinion from Mark Nobilette...although I would not be surprised if he is retired or contemplating retirement. 

 I've bought 3 bikes from Riv....2 customs and many parts and while the wait time may be long, I would totally trust them to move heaven and earth to get your bike right. If it means that much to you I would put myself in their hands. You have that established  relationship with them. 

My .002CAD...good luck. I'm sure you'll resolve this one way or another

[JohnS]

A project is always a good excuse for buying a new tool, as a friend of my use to say. May as well splurge on the alignment tool and see how it works out. Personally I'm suspicions of the elongated bolt hole, not sure why, but it doesn't look good. Any frame builders in a hour or two drive from you? If I were in your shoes I would take it to Bilenky Cycle Works in Philly, I've heard good things about them and they always have great looking bikes at the Philly Bike Expo.

Good luck,

JohnS

[Bill Schairer]

I vote for buy a gauge and do it yourself.  I bought a Park DAG years ago after a wreck and have used it many, many times since.  No regrets.  Haven't I watched your build videos?  You need this tool regardless.  That said, if a shop used one and aligned the hanger, I have a lot of trouble thinking the hanger is responsible for the jumping. In my experience, a misaligned hanger results in poor shifting, noisy drivetrain, and difficulty adjusting the high and low stops.  If it is jumping between gears, maybe, but then should be happening in all gears or at least never seem quite right no matter which gear?  If it is jumping on the same gear, I'd be thinking chain, cassette and/or chainrings?

Bill S

San Diego

[Wesley]

Last fall I wrecked a derailer and bent the hanger when I shifted a short-cage rear der into the big-big combination. I bought a new derailer and aligned the dropout using this 
clever hack (which I could swear I learned of from this list): https://youtu.be/TnwreRrorIA

Anyway, it sounds to me like after all these tries that your derailer hanger is aligned, and that the problem lies elsewhere. Perhaps a bent cog on the cassette? Or the new derailer you're trying has some flaw - e.g. the upper pulley can wander? A stiff link in the chain? I can't think of a reason that the impact to shifter, cable, and housing would be the issue, but maybe there is one I haven't thought of?

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains – however implausible – must be the truth."

-Wes

[CJ]

Can you elaborate on "the chain skips"? A misaligned derailleur hanger will cause shifting to be sub-optimal, but unless the hanger is so bent that the derailleur is way, way out of whack, it can't make the chain skip. Skipping chains are caused by worn or damaged chains and/or cogs. Have you checked your cassette cogs for damage? Try a new chain and cassette? 

Another thing to check, are your dropouts aligned? Is the wheel still sitting straight in the frame? Dropout alignment tools are nice to have, but pricey and you shouldn't need them often. You can improvise with threaded rod and a handful of hardware. Google is your friend.

If you own multiple bikes, you should own a derailleur hanger alignment tool. I have an inexpensive "Cyclospirit" one, and it's paid for itself many times over. It's maybe a little more fiddly to use than an expensive, name-brand tool, but it works.

CJ

[Stephen]

Hey Eric,

Been loosely following along. Glad you were ok in the accident but sheesh, what a bummer it did so much damage. Id vote along with others for getting a hanger alignment tool, or figuring out how to make one for yourself. i bought a wolf tooth variety ( i prefer the way it references to the hub vs rim) not too long ago and dont regret the investment. I bought after knocking my appaloosa over on the drive side. 

I will say i am curious too whether there might be something else going on to cause the skipping.. when my hanger was bent it was only noticeable that when in my biggest cassette ring the derailer would go into the wheel. may depend on what way its bended. I’m curious if the derailer may have any wiggle in the elongated hole. have you tried subbing in another derailer or chain to test the system? 

I encourage you to keep trying to solve on your own before reaching the final solution of frame repair or sending cross country, which would be time consuming and expensive. I can’t imagine what antonio or mark would do that you or someone more experienced on the east coast couldnt achieve. 

-stephen

[Stephen]

https://www.jensonusa.com/Wolf-Tooth-Hanger-Alignment-Tool

[Jim Whorton]

Even though it’s threading in smoothly, I wonder if that elongated hole is the problem. Wonder if that bolt is moving under tension.  

I’m not a bike mechanic by any means but I did spring for the Park Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge awhile back and I’m glad.  I have used it on old frames and on a new Riv frame I built up recently.  

On YouTube, RJ the Bike Guy has a good video on building a homemade dropout alignment gauge, also useful:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsU8IkkFaok

Jim in Rochester, NY

[Jim Whorton]

Oops, I just noticed Stephen had already made the point about the derailleur possibly wiggling in the hole.  Yes— what Stephen said. 

Jim

[Eric Marth]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. 

A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the chain is under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of like when you're in the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it right. But no amount of trimming is fixing the issue. 

I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The cassette was new in summer of 2022 and I haven't ridden in the three big gears enough to wear out the teeth of the cogs. It's an S-Ride 7s from Rivendell, it's an 11-32. The crank is the same age, installed last summer. SunXCD crank with TA Specialites rings, 42/26. I don't see any issues with the wheel (it's running true) or with worn cassette or chainring teeth. Also no play in the freehub body. 

The elongated hole: It could be the derailer is flexing in the hole, hard to determine this off the bike. Derailer seems seated when I try to move it around in my hand, doesn't wobble. 

I have not yet tried installing a different wheel and cassette. That will be next. Should have tried that much earlier in the process. 

[Eric Marth]

Further ideas: Antonio at Riv suggested getting a Helicoil tool in the M10x1.0 size to repair the bolt hole. Brian Chapman recommended installing a Wheels Mfg. dropout saver. Either would attempt to repair the bolt hole. 

I'm open to trying either of those fixes as well. 

[George Schick]

This is one of the more interesting posts/threads having to do with bike repairs that has come along in awhile (with no intention to downplay the unfortunate accident!).  I like the final post about a Helicoil or dropout saver recommendation.  My own preference would likely be the Helicoil because you have to tap in new larger diameter threads in order to install the coil, which seems like it would stabilize the damaged hanger better.  Having view the dropout saver at the Wheels Mfg. website, I'm not sure how well that would work in this case.

[Jason Fuller]

Eric, you've got to get a DAG alignment tool!  The heavy steel one, avoid the new lighter one. It's a must have for the home mechanic of fine steel frames that do not have replaceable hangers.  I use it every time the derailleur is pulled off for any reason, or if I'm having any stubborn shifting issue - it's amazing how often it's just because the alignment was out slightly. 

[Eric Marth]

George: Thanks for reading along! Yes, the Helicoil seems like a more robust solution, I agree. 

Jason: Noted! If only Riv would bring back those beefy headset presses they got a super limited run of a few years ago. Never need one but... they seemed awesome. 

[Eric Marth]

Today: Progress! 

Thanks again for your replies. Today Wesley and Stephen's replies suggesting that it might not be the hanger had me scratching my head in new and exciting ways. Thank you for your suggestions that I keep searching. 

I remembered that back when all this began my friend Tess at A1A bike shop in St. Augustine asked if there was play in the freehub body or the cassette. I checked both and noticed a very small amount of wiggle in the cassette. It seemed acceptable. She recommended that I try a different wheel and cassette. I hadn't done this yet and decided today that I'd try a wheel swap before purchasing the Park DAG. I'll probably still get one ;) 

This afternoon I removed the wheel, removed the S-Ride 7-speed cassette and installed an 8-speed cassette from my parts bin with the same cog configuration (11-32). Snugged it up, re-installed the wheel. It was raining out and I rode around the neighborhood in my jeans and wool Birkenstocks until my pants and shirt were soaked. 

No skips from the chain! Until today all of my dozens of test rides resulted in the chain jumping after the first few strokes. I would ride the bike out of my shop and start saying, out loud, "Clunk clunk clunk." Then the chain would clunk and I'd say a string of words that would get me forever banned from this forum. 

This time it didn't happen once. I rode for about two miles around the neighborhood in my smallest three cogs, pedaled hard, climbed a hill, pedaled out of the saddle. Chain felt and operated like normal. I'll have to take it on a longer ride tomorrow to be sure. 

I believe the cassette lock ring was loose, introducing movement in the cassette. When I say the chain was "jumping" I mean that when I pedaled under load the chain would physically slip, clunk loudly and interrupt my stroke. I think the chain would slip off of one of the cassette teeth, slide for a second, then engage with another tooth. It makes a sharp, loud noise that sounds unpleasant and feels wrong under your feet. 

The lock ring must have come loose during the fall and subsequent mangling of the derailer and hanger. 

I wish I'd listened to Tess right out of the gate, I would have been much further along if I had. It would seem my hand and eye derailer alignment skills are passable. 

I currently have a Deore XT derailer installed. I much prefer the classical looks of the Suntour Cyclone but I'm going to leave the XT installed for the shakeout period. 

Thanks again to everyone for the help, encouragement, kind words and collective brainpower! 

[Danny]

I'm curious to hear what ends up resolving the issue. I hope it's as easy as a new cassette, but I'm most intrigued by it being related to the elongated hole.

Re: alignment tools, after borrowing my friend's Park DAG a handful of times over a few months, I decided to buy my own tool. Ended up with the Wolf Tooth one that Stephen linked to. Have only used it once so far, but I found it to work quite well. Doesn't take up much room in the drawer, and I don't have to endure the frequent screeching of metal sliding on metal that I experienced with the Park tool.

-Danny

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8cf3f482-9e7f-462b-ae6e-edbb2ff65c52n%40googlegroups.com.

[Eric Marth]

Hi CJ: Thanks for this thoughtful response. The teeth on the cassette and chainring appear to be in good shape, they aren't very old. The chain I'm using is brand new. Also tried an older chain to be sure, both skipped. 

Dropouts were aligned at my LBS with their alignment tools. 

Looks like the cassette lock ring was loose. Installed a different cassette and is running without the chain skipping. 

On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 9:33:06 AM UTC-4 CJ wrote:

[Danny]

Ooops, didn't see your update just before I posted. Glad you got it worked out!

[Ryan]

Glad this saga had a happy ending!I bet you're relieved

[Eric Marth]

Thanks, Ryan and Danny. Just rode another 3 miles on a quick bank errand, no skips. Will have to try a longer ride when it dries out. 

Also installed a Brooks Pro I purchased from Two Wheeled Texan's Grand Relocation Parts Blowout and I liked it! 

[Ian]

What a great outcome 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/303d40dc-f5fd-4f2f-90ea-b61a86c15607n%40googlegroups.com.

[Stephen]

huzzah!

[Eric Marth]

After twenty miles today with no chain jumping I'm calling this solved. 

[JohnS]

Awesome news Eric, glad to hear you're Hillborne is back on the road!

JohnS