New build challenge: Roadini vs Gallop

[Bill Lindsay]

I've sketched out a sub-20 pound Gallop build, employing zero carbon components. I had a lightish Leo Roadini a few years back, but it was not sub-20 pounds.  Is anybody else out there scoping out a light Gallop or a light Roadini build?  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Erik Wright]

Great question! I'd love to build on it by asking about process as well. When you (Bill and others) sketch out a lightweight build, how do you go about it? Are there big ticket items that you know will save major weight, and go from there? Do you plan to include things like Titanium Rene Herse M5 Bolts or are those a little goofy? What do you focus on when thinking holistically about a sub-20lb, steel, reasonably spec'd (subjective term I guess) bike?

I lightened up my Sam Hillborne a couple years ago and a few components that brought major weight savings were swapping the Sugino crank for a VO 50.4; Rene Herse EL tires; and having my LBS build me a 32h Pacenti Brevet dynamo wheel set (replacing a Velocity Atlas). I actually asked about wheels here, and wound up taking Bill's advice to find a M737 rear hub on ebay for the rear wheel. I've never weighed the bike, but it's light enough that when people move it or pick it up they often say "wow, light for a Riv"

Erik, Philly

[Bill Lindsay]

Regarding process, I get immense enjoyment out of builds, but I'm such a good mechanic now that my builds happen too quickly.  Like, I'll pick up a new frame at 11AM and by 2PM that afternoon I'm riding the bike around the block.  To extend the enjoyment I plan it out, and that comes in the form of a spreadsheet.  On the spreadsheet I'll plan out every single part and enter a weight for every single part.  I'll use published weights when I don't have it on hand, but I weigh every single piece before they go on the bike.  

The key to a light build is to consider every single part.  Because of that, trying to make a heavy bike light is usually a waste of money, unless you can repurpose the stuff that comes off in a way that funds the work.  Otherwise you end up replacing EVERYTHING.  Starting from scratch, when you consider every single part, then there are grams to shave pretty much everywhere.  There are things one can do to drop a lot of grams for not very much money, and as one knocks off the low-hanging fruit, it gets gradually more expensive to drop the next gram.  For me the pain-point threshold is at $1 per gram.  Once I'm to the point where it costs more than $1 per gram I start to say "OK, this is dumb".  Rene Herse Ti water bottle bolts are an example.  They cost $12 for a pair and will drop 3 grams from steel bolts.  That's $4 a gram, or roughly $1800 per pound.  That's expensive.  

For all the bolts threaded into your frame, I like to take them ALL off and weigh them as a bundle.  For some of these Rivendells it's a lot of bolts.  When you go to put them back on the frame, consider this:

1. the lightest possible option is AIR, or No Bolt.  Also, Air is free.  Does this bolt have to go into that threaded boss?  Or can you leave it empty?

2. If you want to plug the hole, but don't need to carry any load, consider plastic.  Nylon metric bolts are cheap and weigh basically nothing

3. If you need to carry something, but it's a very light load, consider aluminum.  Basically every high end contemporary bike is using aluminum water bottle bolts.  They weigh 1/3 of steel, cost 1/2 of titanium, and they don't break if you don't over tighten them.  Rear cantilever bolts are a great place for M6 aluminum, and saves ~10 grams.  

4. Titanium if you have a lot of spare money

5. If you want to plug the hole, don't need to carry any load, and hate the look of plastic, consider a stubby set screw.  I use set screws to plug unused fender holes for a clean look.  

Grams add up to pounds.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[J-D Bamford]

I’ve never been guilty of building a ~20 lb road bike, LOL. That said, if you’re not starting with light wheels and tires, then nothing else matters because rotating mass is where you feel it. Although I won’t be jumping on the TPU tube bandwagon - got one as an experiment and the valve just plain fell off during installation. Anyway, light wheels in the $500-$1000 range, and light tires like RH, will make even a pig of a heavy frame feel light when riding on the flats.

Then per Bill’s remarks, it’s a method of looking at every component. Crank, BB, brakes, handlebars, and so forth. I wonder how many folks are achieving light weight with a Brooks saddle, versus anything else where a plastic frame drops a lot of ounces.

[Jason Fuller]

Bill - I'm curious whether you have insight into the real weight of the Gallop frameset, and if not, what your educated guess might be.  I am not a weight weenie (anymore) at all, but still I would love to see (or host, if need be!) a Rivendell frame weight library. Not because I think less is better, but because you can get a good sense of how a frame will behave based on its geometry and weight as well as what it's appropriate or not appropriate for. 

A lightweight Roadini build is easy to imagine because there are so many similar examples out there. A lightweight Charlie build is a really interesting concept because there'd be nothing quite the same: long wheelbase, swept bars, but minimalist like a cafe racer build. 1x, foam grips, extralight tires on a nice road wheelset. I'm into it. 

[Bill Lindsay]

My educated guess on the frame weight is to read the weight that Riv claims on the page for the CHG: "A 57cm frame weights about 4.8lb. That's plenty light."

My educated guess on the fork weight is a few grams lighter than what my RoadUno fork weighs, because I weighed it at 993g.  My guess is 970g.  My Roadeo fork is 883g.  

BL in EC

[Mathias Steiner]

Ted Durant weighed the frame and fork of his 51 cm Sam and found

>> 2637 grams for the frame (including headset cups, water bottle bolts, and seat post binder bolt)

and

>> 844 grams for the fork (including crown race).

which helps explain the pleasant ride of the Sam, and how people report loving it for randonneuring.

Given the touring pretensions of the Hillborne, I find it hard to understand that the fork is lighter than the Roaduno fork, which we're told elsewhere uses the tubing of the Homer, a somewhat lighter bike than the Sam. Roadeo and Roadini ought to be lighter still, and I would expect that to extend to the fork.

My tourers have steel unicrown forks that weight right at 1000 g -- a hair over for the Gordon BLT, a few grams under for the Cannondale T400. This is appropriate for touring with a front load, but does not bring much joy when riding unloaded.

Another steel fork I recently weighed is from my '81 Motobécane Grand Touring -- 880 g. That bike is a pleasure to ride.

Not to say that weight alone determines how a fork will ride, but it is a factor. My Cannondale ST600 sport tourer rides better than my T400, and that fork was right around 900 g. Great ride, lowrider braze-ons notwithstanding.

The conclusion I draw from my playing around with different models is that a frame can't really be too stiff, but that a compliant fork makes for a pleasant ride -- assuming everything is properly designed, of course. I should buy a Sam fork and try it out on my tourers -- the geometries are otherwise similar, so it would probably work.

[Bill Lindsay]

 "Given the touring pretensions of the Hillborne, I find it hard to understand that the fork is lighter than the Roaduno fork"

Let's get into what the weights of those forks should be.  We're comparing empiricisms of 844g vs 993g, and trying to make them make sense.    

A 51cm Hillborne takes 650B wheels.  A 58cm Roaduno takes 700c wheels.  The fork legs of a 51cm Hillborne will be roughly 20mm shorter than on a 58cm Roaduno.  I don't know exactly the grams per mm of fork legs but I will assert that they are close to 1g/mm on each leg.  That's a 40 gram difference.  

A 51cm Hillborne has about a 70mm shorter steer tube than a 58cm Roaduno.  Steer tubes are conveniently almost exactly 1g/mm, which I measure every time I cut a steer tube.  That's another 70 gram difference.

The Roaduno has the exceptionally cute but bulky Appaloosa fork crown.  The Sam Hillborne has the sneaky light RC-04 crown.  Sneaky because it's lighter than the narrower RC-03.  We spec'd the RC-04 on my Cantilever Roadeo, and that fork weighed 886g.  I'm sure Riv knows the weights for sure, but I'd guess the Appaloosa crown is at least 40g heavier.  

So, a 58cm Roaduno fork with the same legs ought to be ~150g heavier than a 51cm Hillbourne fork.  The two measurements that you can't understand differ by [checks notes] ... 150g.  

My forthcoming Gallop fork should be ~40g lighter than the Roaduno fork because it has the RC-04 crown, and should be another ~30g lighter because it'll have a much shorter steer tube.  I get that from comparing STACK between a 58 Roaduno and a 57 Gallop.  So it might weigh in at about 930g.  That's about what it should be relative to a 51 Hillborne because of the longer legs and longer steerer.  Call it 40g in the legs and around 50g in the steerer.  

It's just arithmetic to guess, and scales to weigh, and as you point out the real truth is in the ride.  I promise I will report the fork weight when I get my 57 Gallop.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Mathias Steiner]

Great analysis, Bill.

I spaced on the smaller wheels and didn't think the shorter steerer tube alone would amount to anything. Taken together however...

cheers -mathias

[Nick Payne]

Out of curiosity I just weighed the spare fork I have for my Riv custom, built for 700c wheels and 47-57mm reach brakes with the brake blocks at the bottom of the slot. It comes in at 830g, and that's with a steerer that's 270mm long, as it's intended for use in a 63cm frame with a 210mm head tube.

NIck Payne

[Danny]

Matthias, when I talked to Riv to help choosing between a Homer and Roaduno, I was told the geo was essentially identical, but the Roaduno used slightly heavier tubing. I'm sure not enough to noticeably affect the ride feel.

Anyway, I ended up with a 61.5 Homer.
The frame + cups + seatpost binder bolt and nut + water bottle boss bolts weighs 2520g
The fork + crown race weighs 890g (steerer length is ~290mm)

-Danny

On Mon, Nov 25, 2024 at 2:30 PM Nick Payne <njh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Out of curiosity I just weighed the spare fork I have for my Riv custom, built for 700c wheels and 47-57mm reach brakes with the brake blocks at the bottom of the slot. It comes in at 830g, and that's with a steerer that's 270mm long, as it's intended for use in a 63cm frame with a 210mm head tube.

NIck Payne

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[Dan]

To add another data point, I weighted my Roadini fork that came with my 57cm frame: 840g. 

[Johnny Alien]

Grant is so disappointed in this group right now

[Bill Lindsay]

If my Gallop fork comes in at 840g, then it should be pretty easy to get under 9kg total, which would be saucy.  I might even add a bell at that point!

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Brian Turner]

For real! I was just thinking the same thing.

[Bill Lindsay]

Ha ha.  I guarantee Grant will approve of my build.  I'd wager on it.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[brendonoid]

Jumping in as this tails off, but recently I inherited some shop scales and started weighing everything. 

It has only just occurred to me how light our Rivendells generally are in the grand scheme of things. Rim brakes really do make a difference in how light the forks can be built and that seems to be a huge factor in overall weights.

Just something that's been on my radar lately, I have been planning on trying to get my Homer as light as possible now that it has been retired from commuter duty. Excited to see a lightweight build to get the ideas flowing!

[John Dewey]

That’s funny and 98.9% sure you are correct sir!

JD

PS: Now get back to it. You must have some twining (or re-twining) left to do somewhere. And btw, a little shellac carefully administered is the bees knees twine solution. 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8f840be5-e4a2-413c-9c51-ca040cad4e96n%40googlegroups.com.

[Bill Lindsay]

What "shop scales" did you inherit?  Is it the kind with a hook that weighs the whole bike?  Digital/analog/both?  Did you get a gram scale for small parts?

The thing to buy, IMO is a food scale.  They are super affordable, and accurate enough, and typically have a capacity up to 5kg (11 pounds), so there is no individual part on a build that you can't weigh.  Once you've got a food scale, it opens up a whole new way to follow recipes for dry ingredients that have variable density.  Things like flour or chopped herbs don't lend themselves to volumetric portioning, but the weight is pretty reliable.  It's a great tool in the kitchen for people who like to follow recipes.  You free-form-jazz cooks who use the recipe as a suggestion would likely disapprove of that regimentation.  :)

Like I said at the beginning, trying to make a heavy build light can be a tough task, unless maybe you are already content to take everything off, weigh every piece, and then scatter those bits to other parts of your stable, and start a brand new ground-up build.  If you are frugal, and don't have the ability or the will to let go of "perfectly good" pieces that happen to be heavy, then you may be better off adopting the healthier attitude that the weight of your bike has nothing to do with your enjoyment of a bike ride.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[George Schick]

This blog thread caused me to think about why my '04 Ram seems heavier on the back end than the re-built '72 Fuji finest when I lift it off the ceiling hooks in the garage.  Of course, there's a Mark's mini-rack back there plus saddle bag, but it suddenly occurred to me that when I bought the bike I installed one of the last silver Salsa Shaft seat posts to go with it and that seat post was 350mm long.  I just shoved the entire length into the seat tube until I got it to the height I wanted.  I suspect that if I would cut off the excess length it would make some difference in the bike's weight.  Hopefully I can get it out of the seat tube without too much difficulty.

[Jason Fuller]

Always a good idea to cut excess seat post off to lessen the chances of it getting permanently stuck if you forget to periodically remove and regrease. Side benefit that it cuts some extra weight! 

[Edward S]

Bill, 

As someone who just purchased a size 57 Gallop, I've found your post and knowledge really helpful. I went to Riv HQ to test ride a Gallop and a Roadini - but got the Gallop as it had a better "head fit". It's my first Rivendell, and is getting built up by Riv with a lot of house components, so I'm not too worried about weight on this one since the size 57 frame already felt so light. 

I'll share the weight of the full build once it's done. 

Most important question though. What color Gallop did you go for? 

Edward

SF

[Bill Lindsay]

The 57 Gallop frame set that I set aside at Riv HQ is Dark Gold in color.  I have a "Riv Blue" Romulus and so I went for the stable-contrast.  They are both excellent colors in my opinion.  

BL in EC. 

[Mathias Steiner]

>> Ha ha.  I guarantee Grant will approve of my build.  I'd wager on it.  

Being Mr. Petersen is the pusher for our drug of choice, he's basically required to approve. After all, the customer is always right.

The road-ish forks don't ride better because they weigh a few grams less. They ride better because they're built to ride well unloaded; and because they are designed properly and built right, they weigh less than stouter models. So fork weight is an indicator.

And when it comes to bikes, all else being equal, lighter is better. Of course, all else isn't equal.

This is, I believe, my best long-distance rider. My goal for next year is to set it up with proper fenders and dyno lights and ride it everywhere. I don't know what it weights but it's pretty light and it fits and it's comfortable and it just has a livelier feel on the road than my Cannondale touring bike. I believe the main difference is the fork.

cheers -mathias
East Lansing, MI

[Kevin McNamara]

I have a 53cm Gallop in gold on order.  Going with a "you pick the fun stuff" Riv build.  While I am very curious as to what it will weigh, going for as light as possible was not the path I chose for this.  If I decide to gradually replace parts to bring weight down, then I have some great stuff to add to the parts bin.  I will post the weight and build list when Charlie arrives. 
I'm glad to be a new member to the group.  It appears to be a friendly and knowledgeable bunch.  

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

Kevin

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[George Schick]

Jason - thanks for the tip.  I pulled the seat post out of the Ram's tube and it came out easily. Further, it turns out that I must've been thinking of a different bike because the post was pre-cut by the manf. at just the right length.  Nevertheless, I re-greased with anti-seize lubricant and put it back. Thanks again.

George