Susie / Gus questions

[Richard Rose]

Greetings all. First, does anyone recall reading in one of the updates about additional Susie / Gus bikes becoming available?

Second, who is using their Susie / Gus as their primary mountain bike?

Third, is anyone able to comments on a direct comparison between a Susie and a Clem L?

My Clem never ceases to amaze me. It is, without doubt the most comfortable bike I have ever owned. I am so ingrained to my position on the bike that I am now uncomfortable on my dedicated singletrack bike - a full suspension bike with relatively strait handlebars. The Clem is really good off road and on mild singletrack, but its weight and flexibility have kept me from giving it a go on some of the rowdy, rock and root strewn tracks I like to ride on the full squish bike.

Now, I have no illusions about any rigid bike being as plush and capable on these trails as the suspended bike. But I do have some experience riding a rigid bike with big tires (Jones 29") and I liked it. The notion of a bike that puts me in the exact same position as my Clem but dedicated to singletrack has me more than a little intrigued.

Appreciate any comments / thoughts.

[Ryan Frahm]

Hello! I picked up a Susie in the last run and have been using it as my mountain bike. That said, I have not ridden a suspension bike in quite a while. I did see the email that a second run was going to happen. It was supposed to be spring this year I think but since the ones I got didn’t show up till then I’m sure it will be next year at this point, no mention of them for a while. 

I haven’t ridden a Clem L so I can’t say, I do have a Clem H though. I love my Clem! The H has a little bit steeper head tube, the new Clem L seems to be a slightly closer spec to a Gus or Susie as far as head tube angle and fork rake. 

My Susie feels like riding on a cloud compared to the Clem and I don’t think it is just the tire size but I’m sure it plays a good part of it. The extra height of the BB on the Susie is very welcome in the chunky stuff as well. The tubes on the Susie feel full of like and spring forward when I get on it. I ride the Clem daily towing my daughter around and it is perfect for that. Load the Clem up with whatever and it is stable as can be. The Susie has more flex. Not sure if a Gus feels stiffer but I love the way the Susie rides. 

My Clem has an albatross bar and I have bosco’s on the Susie. So not a fair comparison in upright sitting. The Susie is very upright and my Clem not so much. Funny thing, I thought I was faster on the Clem. This week I am using the Susie and I’m actually slightly faster on it while feeling like I’m not working as hard. According to my gps data on my usual daily routes. Only 2 days so far so I’ll see if that holds true all week. 

You won’t match a full squish bike on a Gus or Susie but the riding is still a blast! Just different. I had a jones LWB complete and I would definitely recommend the Susie over that. Jones makes a great bike in theory, but I think they (the completes at least) are wastefully overbuilt. It was several lbs heavier than my Susie and the slowest I have ever been while riding a bike. My Susie has a more plush ride than the Jones did and is a better ride in all ways.

Not sue I’ve said anything useful in my rambling but I highly recommend the Susie! I’m sure the Gus is equally awesome though! I think if you have your Clem set up for commuting and the Gus/Susie set up for trails there isn’t too much of an overlap to justify one. 

[Kim Hetzel]

I own a 2021 59cm Clem Smith Jr. "L". I am just beginning to fully appreciate this bicycle beyond it being very comfortable.

Awhile back, I asked Will Keating from Rivendell Bicycle Works a question about the differences between the Suzie and the Clem.

He said, "The Susie is longer, has lighter tubing, and is fillet brazed (the Clems are tig welded) which makes them more expensive. The Susie also fits a slightly bigger tire - Clems max out at around 2.4; Susie fit a 2.6. Other than that - they are similar!"

Kim Hetzel

Yelm, WA.

[Richard Rose]

Interesting stuff. Yeah, my Clem being a current geo “Low” with Bosco’s probably has more in common with your Susie than with your Clem. I am very upright on it & it simply glides through twisty but smooth singletrack. I only have 1.9” / 48mm tires (Gravelking SS) on it. I imaging a Susie would be a bit stiffer & plusher with 2.6” or so tires. I am actually experimenting right now with swept back bars on the suspended bike in a (futile?) effort to get into a more Clem - like position on it. Apples & oranges I fear…

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On Oct 19, 2022, at 10:11 AM, Ryan Frahm <fra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello! I picked up a Susie in the last run and have been using it as my mountain bike. That said, I have not ridden a suspension bike in quite a while. I did see the email that a second run was going to happen. It was supposed to be spring this year I think but since the ones I got didn’t show up till then I’m sure it will be next year at this point, no mention of them for a while. 

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[Richard Rose]

VERY interesting! 

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On Oct 19, 2022, at 10:54 AM, Kim Hetzel <krhe...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Ryan Frahm]

Absolutely. If I could pick one bike to do it all, I’d likely pick up a Clem L frame. It crosses my mind often actually because I’ve always looked for the “one” bike to do it all. 

[Kim Hetzel]

I know the deadline has come and passed. It does not indicate as to whether or not if this for the Clem Smith Jr. "H" or the "L" version. However, for information reasons:

https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/news/clem-lotto-tickets-on-sale-til-friday-the-15th?_pos=1&_sid=934df0537&_ss=r

Kim Hetzel

Yelm, WA.

[Hetchins52]

Kim, that’s from 2021 — One year ago

[Jason Fuller]

I love the Susie / Gus for what they are, but I will admit I'd never consider one for trail riding around here because of two deal-breakers: rim brakes and 26.8 seatpost.  I can happily do without suspension, but a dropper seatpost provides so much more off-road capability for pretty minimal complexity. At least if were 27.2 we'd have options.  And disc brakes not only improve performance and general enjoyment when things get muddy, they also allow fatter tires and potentially fenders as well - there isn't enough clearance with V-brakes to have both fat tires and fenders.  

This has everything to do with where I live though - the Gus / Susie are perfect for the California hills for which they're designed, I have no doubt. They just don't make as much sense here in BC.  The Jones, or a Stooge are the ideal rigid MTBs for me. 

[Richard Rose]

Good points for sure, but for the most part not for me. All trails within 2 hrs. of me frown on riding in muddy / soft conditions - and I don’t do so. So fenders are never required. Disks are nice though. I don’t miss them where I ride the Clem but I might on certain high speed descents. The Susie will take as wide a tire as I would likely use. And, I have a dropper on my bike now & simply do not take advantage of it locally. But like you, these items have more to do with locale than anything else.

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On Oct 19, 2022, at 6:06 PM, Jason Fuller <jtf.f...@gmail.com> wrote:

I love the Susie / Gus for what they are, but I will admit I'd never consider one for trail riding around here because of two deal-breakers: rim brakes and 26.8 seatpost.  I can happily do without suspension, but a dropper seatpost provides so much more off-road capability for pretty minimal complexity. At least if were 27.2 we'd have options.  And disc brakes not only improve performance and general enjoyment when things get muddy, they also allow fatter tires and potentially fenders as well - there isn't enough clearance with V-brakes to have both fat tires and fenders.  

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[Mackenzy Albright]

I have a bullmoose bosco first gen 59cm Clementine with 2.2 tires and simworks flat 65 fenders with ample clearance for the type of riding I do. With the steeper headtube I find it a better commuter with a basket and light trail bike that is extremely comfortable and fun. it feels like a good bike with long chainstays. 

I also have a 64 Clem Smith Jr that I found I disliked as a commuter with a basket because of flop so have turned it into a designated hillibike. I was able to fit 2.5 maxxis tires with space to spare. The fit is almost identical to the 59cm with tosco's and a 90mm stem. It's an absolute blast on trails and descends and climbs like a dream. The way it floats I felt I could easily outpace a lot of other bikes with no squirm. I feel much more confident on trails than with the clementine. It marks what I enjoy about mountain biking/all terrain biking which is picking lines, riding light, pumping, and regulating speed accordingly. the long wheel base and slack HT really help it float. I have no intention of ever having a suspension bike. it's not how I want to relate or wish to engage to my environment. With the bike so long I feel like I have lots of room to move forward and back terrain pending. 

I think a Gus or a SUS would be even a little more awesome for trails. But I'm happy with my clems and they do everything i want them to do. 

[Ryan Frahm]

Mackenzy, you nailed the riding these bikes are made for. They are a blast. Rim brakes are absolutely fine in all conditions for riding at the speeds these bikes are made for. When I look at the geo on the Clem L, it is seemingly closer to a Gus/Susie and I’m sure it can be very close to as capable. The long wheelbase is such a smooth ride too! Far more capable than most would imagine. 

As far as a dropper post, I just don’t have any need for them. Picking lines and “under biking” has been something I have fun doing though. If you need disc brakes and a dropper post, you’re going fast enough to need full body protection. I don’t take it that serious these days. That kind of riding is probably best left to bikes made for it. Unfortunately, I use a setback post to be comfortable on these bikes. Droppers don’t have setback. And those new bikes with a 74-76 seat tube angle? That just sounds like a great way to ruin a comfortable bike ride…

[Richard Rose]

Nice, thanks for that input. My Clem is a new 52 and it has felt really good on smooth trails. But it was pretty rough relative to the squishy bike) on a heavily rooted section. But the tires are pretty small as noted. On a more rocky trail I frequent I would be concerned (I think?) about pedal strikes. But I really need to ride some more trails with this Clem. 

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On Oct 19, 2022, at 6:38 PM, Mackenzy Albright <mackenzy...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a bullmoose bosco first gen 59cm Clementine with 2.2 tires and simworks flat 65 fenders with ample clearance for the type of riding I do. With the steeper headtube I find it a better commuter with a basket and light trail bike that is extremely comfortable and fun. it feels like a good bike with long chainstays. 

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[Mackenzy Albright]

I think the tires size definitely makes a huge difference in overall feel. Even going from 2.2 on a narrow rim to 2.5 on a wide rim. If you've got a chance, try to fit some ~2.4 tires on there and hit the trails. I found some inexpensive second hand downhill tires to try it out and really enjoyed it. Downhillers love upgrading and tires can be bought cheap. The BB height also rises to a more reasonable height for trails as well. 

I found the large clem jr pretty good on "baby head" sized rocks sticking out of trails for the speeds I ride. It deflects and bounces a lot less than other bikes I've noticed. Granted my reference of my previous bike was a romanceur with 26x2.1 tires which is short and twitchy. 

I've noticed a lot of "progressive" mtb geometry is getting long and slack (not unlike riv hillibikes). As Frahm had mentioned the huge difference is short chainstays and steeeeeeeep seat tubes. I'm curious if longer bikes will catch on in the next 5 years. Salsa and Specialized will release "long wheelbase progressive geometry" mountain bikes. haha 

[Ryan Frahm]

"long wheelbase progressive geometry" The next marketing ploy!

I agree on the tire size. I’m not sure what wheels you are running, but the cliffhanger set up tubeless with a 2.4-5  would make it quite capable. Again, this is depending on your wants. I love a stable bike that can bomb some fun stuff and climb comfortably while getting me to and from the trail. Deer and elk trail exploration, the bike shoulders surprisingly well to get through some tough hike a bike. Could be the ATB the market “must” have in a few years. 

I won’t knock the sweet new bikes (or riders) that can fly through any terrain at speeds that scare me! That’s just not what you buy one of these bikes for. I love my Susie but can’t say that it would be a massive difference over the Clem L if the Clem had similar wheels and tires. It’s a 1 cm higher BB, not a huge difference. Run a shorter crank, your knees might love it! 

[Brian Turner]

I wouldn’t take this as gospel, but earlier this year in some email correspondence with Will from Rivendell, he mentioned that there would be another run of Susie / Gus frames either late this year or early next. He also mentioned that it MAY be the last run of these, and that they were considering consolidating the two into one bike instead of having two such similar models. Now, I don’t know if that means one of the two would go away, or both of them, or if it means a newly designed “Hillibike” that is a combination of the two. I simply can’t speculate on what he meant any more than that… but it’s something to keep in mind. 

I can’t *fully* speak to the capabilities of my Gus because I’ve only had it for 2 weeks now. However, in that amount of time I’ve put it through nearly all of the situations I intend to use it for and the types of terrain I plan to ride it on. I don’t consider myself a mountain biker per se, but I do enjoy riding a bike on rough terrain. Never owned a bike with suspension and never felt the need based on my riding style. I’ve been known to do a bit of underbiking with a loaded steel gravel bike. I’m firmly a “wheels on the ground” rider. I’m not jumping off rocks, hopping over logs, or screaming down hills picking technical lines. I’m typically riding rather slowly and methodically, simply enjoying the fact that I can even ride a bike on terrain that a lot of folks wouldn’t consider. Green and blue trails for this guy, and the tamer ones at that. I wanted to be able to pack 30-odd pounds along with me for bikepacking trips on chunky gravel, unmaintained forest roads, and exploring the occasional dry creek bed or crossing scenario. My Gus replaced my Surly Troll for all the riding mentioned above. Nothing crazy. Nothing technical. But I wanted it to be capable. The weight limitations listed on the Susie ruled it out for me. I’m not heavy, but not the lightest either (175-180 usually); but my weight + loaded gear + terrain made me go with Gus.

In the past two weeks, I’ve ridden my Gus (27.5 x 2.5 tires) approximately 150 miles; spanning several paved rail trail routes, an s24o along some rugged forest roads, and a couple of trips to local singletrack parks. It’s proved entirely capable in all situations thus far. It cruises along, carves turns, descends with confidence, and climbs like a mofo. Pretty much what I want it to do.

I think if you’re looking to replace a suspension mountain bike, or a bike with a dropper post, or a bike you’d typically be bombing over roots and hopping off rocks at speed, this bike AIN’T that.

Hope my limited experience helps a bit!

- Brian

On Oct 19, 2022, at 7:43 PM, Ryan Frahm <fra...@gmail.com> wrote:

"long wheelbase progressive geometry" The next marketing ploy!

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[Richard Rose]

Everything I now ride on the full squish bike I used to do on my Jones 29. That of course was a short wheelbase, tight chainstay bike with a 2.4” rear tire & a full 3” up front. It was always a blast, gobbling up roots & small rocks. It would take small drops in stride, 2’ at most and not at speed. I moved to suspension due to some back issues that I thought might be exacerbated by riding rigid. The Jones became my everything else bike and I like the Clem better for those uses, so I sold the Jones. But the Clem is just so comfy it has me thinking of doing without suspension once again.

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On Oct 19, 2022, at 8:30 PM, Brian Turner <brok...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[J J]

Just wanted to say that I’m really enjoying this thread. It’s very eye opening and timely, as I’ve recently been reflecting on various Rivendell wheelbases, older models vs newer, long vs medium vs short, and how these relative terms have shifted over time and changed bike philosophy and design and resulted in a distinct category of Rivendell models. I’ve not ridden a super long Riv yet but I’m eager to try a Susie or Gus or a successor. Thanks all. 

[Ryan Frahm]

My understanding of what I’ve heard/read is the same as Brian’s, though his direct communication with Will might have given him more insight. One more run of filet frames for the Gus/Susie before they switch to TIG frames to save on the rising cost of having the brazed. It was also rumored to have at least an extra $200 over the last batch. No idea if they will do other changes than TIG welding or consolidating models. 

[Kim Hetzel]

Thank you for the information.

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[Jason Fuller]

Regarding my earlier comment - I know, and fully respect, that Grant plans to never make a disc brake bike. Which is fine - sure, it limits their function in certain scenarios, but I do really appreciate brands that are willing to do what they want rather than follow market trends. It's what makes Rene Herse, Jones, and others also worth cherishing even if you don't necessarily feel the same way.  And I absolutely think that rim brakes are just as good, if not better, than disc brakes for the majority of riding that people do. 

I think Hillibikes should be v-brake. If I want discs, I know where else to look. It's great to have a V-brake option on the market! 

It's more the seatpost size that really bugs me. I know it's a product of the available seat clamp lug. Hopefully they will go 27.2 in the future - then you can run a thudbuster, a dropper, or a regular seatpost. The brake thing is a stylistic choice I respect, but the seatpost size is just unfortunate.  

[Ryan Frahm]

I meant to say earlier that I do agree with you on the seatpost size Jason. I never plan to use a dropper but I’d have loved to use my Eriksen Sweetpost! That and some custom form of titanium tosco ish bars from Doom would make me even happier with my Susie. Everything is nicer with a touch of titanium!

[Brian Turner]

I also sympathize with the seatpost situation on most of the current Rivs. I had this gorgeous Paul TnH polished seatpost just languishing in my parts bin for the perfect bike - which I kinda thought might be my Gus… so image my dismay upon realizing it has (insert sad trombone) 26-point-freakin-8. Bummer. Good thing is, I sold it to fund a nice new Nitto 2-bolt seatpost, which was perfectly suitable.

On Oct 19, 2022, at 10:55 PM, Ryan Frahm <fra...@gmail.com> wrote:

I meant to say earlier that I do agree with you on the seatpost size Jason. I never plan to use a dropper but I’d have loved to use my Eriksen Sweetpost! That and some custom form of titanium tosco ish bars from Doom would make me even happier with my Susie. Everything is nicer with a touch of titanium!

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[Ryan Frahm]

Those are beautiful beautiful seatposts! I picked up the single bolt Nitto while waiting for my frame. The 2 bolt was impossible to find back then, like so many things. So far no issues with the single bolt other than much tougher to make small adjustments. 

Sorry for the thread derail. I still can’t say get one over the Clem, but I really do love this bike!

[Erik]

I’ve been running my Gus as my primary mountain bike for about six months now and it does everything I want it to do and goes anywhere I want to go.  Some background: mountain biking has been my primary form of biking since my teen years in the late 80s.  I started on rigid bikes, moved to front suspension by the mid-nineties, but didn’t make the jump to full squish for another ten years.  I recently sold off my last full suspension bike (Salsa Horsethief) and used the proceeds to finance the Gus.  I turned 50 this year and have realized that at this point in life that I don’t ride hard enough to warrant the big suspension beasts.  I like to meander more than charge these days and am happy to leave the in-air antics to the fitter and/or younger. 

On the Gus: I can ride it on any trail I rode on my FS bikes.  No problem.  It’s a bit slower downhill, but even better on climbs.  I run a large knobby 2.6 up front and a 2.5 in the back, tubeless.  The squish of the big tires makes all the difference and prevents too much bone and teeth rattling.  I love the stability.  Love the handling, though it does have a bit of front wheel flop that took some getting used to.  It climbs like a beast and I love the comments from the hardcore riders out on the trails.  I regularly ride it on the nasty, rocky, rutted trails at Upper Bidwell Park in Chico, CA, often intermingling with the full-squish set on climbs but politely letting them go first on downhills. The Paul Motolites work perfectly and I don’t miss discs at all.  I have figured out how to set up these brakes to get the perfect stopping power and modulation and have never had any problems with controlling my bike.  

The ONLY thing I wish were different: I want a 27.2 seatpost clamp so I can run a dropper.  I’m with Jason on this one.  I would like the option to move the seat down for more technical descents where I need to lower my mass toward the back wheel so I don’t go over the front.  Without a dropper, there are some really steep, technical descents on my regular rides that I walk as I can’t quite get the positioning I want.    

Will posted some photos of my bike a while back: https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/news/eriks-large-gus

It’s possible I’ll pick up another mountain bike at some point, perhaps one with just front suspension, but that’s more about my problem with buying bikes then it is about needing it for riding my local trails.  :-)

[Richard Rose]

Your bike is beautiful! Your choice of handlebar is interesting. One reason I am considering trading my suspended bike for a Susie is to get the exact riding position that I have on the Clem but on a dedicated mtb. In my case that means very high Bosco bars. The Clem is the only bike I own that does not give me hand / wrist issues. I am trying swept back bars on the Ibis but so far it’s not panning out.

I rode rigid until age 65! Lower back surgery suggested to me that suspension might be wise. It has worked well for me (dw link is for real) except for this hand issue.

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On Oct 20, 2022, at 1:53 AM, Erik <litho...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve been running my Gus as my primary mountain bike for about six months now and it does everything I want it to do and goes anywhere I want to go.  Some background: mountain biking has been my primary form of biking since my teen years in the late 80s.  I started on rigid bikes, moved to front suspension by the mid-nineties, but didn’t make the jump to full squish for another ten years.  I recently sold off my last full suspension bike (Salsa Horsethief) and used the proceeds to finance the Gus.  I turned 50 this year and have realized that at this point in life that I don’t ride hard enough to warrant the big suspension beasts.  I like to meander more than charge these days and am happy to leave the in-air antics to the fitter and/or younger. 

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[Michael Williams]

Hey Erik,   Sweet looking Gus!    In reading your post it seems like your missing a dropper option,   Have you considered putting on a quick release at the seatpost binder bolt?   You said you’ve been riding many iterations of MTBs since the 80s so I’m sure you’ve had a bike with one before.    I put one on my Atlantis and it’s great for dropping the seat post tool- free when I want to get back a little.    I think Riv might sell something on their site.   It’s no dropper but it is helpful in some situations.    -Mike  

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On Oct 20, 2022, at 4:57 AM, Richard Rose <rmro...@gmail.com> wrote:

Your bike is beautiful! Your choice of handlebar is interesting. One reason I am considering trading my suspended bike for a Susie is to get the exact riding position that I have on the Clem but on a dedicated mtb. In my case that means very high Bosco bars. The Clem is the only bike I own that does not give me hand / wrist issues. I am trying swept back bars on the Ibis but so far it’s not panning out.

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[Richard Rose]

Interesting also that you are running 1 x 11? I guess I thought you needed a boost frame for that? 

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On Oct 20, 2022, at 1:53 AM, Erik <litho...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve been running my Gus as my primary mountain bike for about six months now and it does everything I want it to do and goes anywhere I want to go.  Some background: mountain biking has been my primary form of biking since my teen years in the late 80s.  I started on rigid bikes, moved to front suspension by the mid-nineties, but didn’t make the jump to full squish for another ten years.  I recently sold off my last full suspension bike (Salsa Horsethief) and used the proceeds to finance the Gus.  I turned 50 this year and have realized that at this point in life that I don’t ride hard enough to warrant the big suspension beasts.  I like to meander more than charge these days and am happy to leave the in-air antics to the fitter and/or younger. 

--

[lconley]

Solution to putting 27.2 seat post into 26.8 seat tube:

Every 26.8 and 27.2 (and 27.0) ID seat tube that I have ever seen were all the same 28.6 OD, so if you ride 27.2 droppers, reaming a 26.8 ID out to 27.2 shouldn't bother you. You are only reducing the thickness by 0.008" on the inside of the tube.

Laing

[James M]

I've thought about getting my 27.0 Hunq reamed to 27.2 for exactly this reason.  Maybe I should just do it already.

[lconley]

I honed out my Bombadil with an automotive brake cylinder hone from 27.0 to 27.1+ before I took the plunge and got the reamer. Honing took a loooooong time. It does have the advantage of not needing to go all the way to 27.2 because most seatposts aren't a full 27.2.

I did it so I could use a lugged Nitto seatpost - only available in 27.2. Going to use the reamer on my 27.0 Guv'nor for the same reason.

Laing

[Erik]

Not only do I have a quick release, I picked up an old Hite-Rite to go with it!  I salvaged the quick release from an old Bridgestone that’s been in my shed for a long time.  It’s certainly an option, but I did have problems with the post slipping.  Given that I’m not out charging around, stopping to set the seat height isn’t that onerous a task.  I have occasionally stopped and dropped the saddle with a hex key for longer descents.  Maybe I’m just overthinking the dropper post thing and need to embrace the quick release! 

On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 5:16:13 AM UTC-7 mkernan...@gmail.com wrote:

Hey Erik,   Sweet looking Gus!    In reading your post it seems like your missing a dropper option,   Have you considered putting on a quick release at the seatpost binder bolt?   You said you’ve been riding many iterations of MTBs since the 80s so I’m sure you’ve had a bike with one before.    I put one on my Atlantis and it’s great for dropping the seat post tool- free when I want to get back a little.    I think Riv might sell something on their site.   It’s no dropper but it is helpful in some situations.    -Mike  

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[Erik]

1x11 works perfectly.  I had to get a fairly wide BB spindle to keep the chain off of the tire in the smallest gear, but it works beautifully.  I think I ended up running a 122.5 BB.    The longer chain stays actually help mellow out the chain angle on the highest and lowest gears.  I’ve done this on my Atlantis in the past as well and have had no problems.    

On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 5:49:58 AM UTC-7 Richard Rose wrote:

Interesting also that you are running 1 x 11? I guess I thought you needed a boost frame for that? 

-- 

[Erik]

Ohh.  Yeah.  I talked to a machinist friend about that but got cold feet.  I was really worried about messing up something permanently.  I am clearly not adventurous enough!     

On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 6:52:00 AM UTC-7 lconley wrote:

I honed out my Bombadil with an automotive brake cylinder hone from 27.0 to 27.1+ before I took the plunge and got the reamer. Honing took a loooooong time. It does have the advantage of not needing to go all the way to 27.2 because most seatposts aren't a full 27.2.

I did it so I could use a lugged Nitto seatpost - only available in 27.2. Going to use the reamer on my 27.0 Guv'nor for the same reason.

Laing

On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 9:46:04 AM UTC-4 mcgr...@gmail.com wrote:

I've thought about getting my 27.0 Hunq reamed to 27.2 for exactly this reason.  Maybe I should just do it already.

On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 8:50:56 AM UTC-4 lconley wrote:

Solution to putting 27.2 seat post into 26.8 seat tube:

Every 26.8 and 27.2 (and 27.0) ID seat tube that I have ever seen were all the same 28.6 OD, so if you ride 27.2 droppers, reaming a 26.8 ID out to 27.2 shouldn't bother you. You are only reducing the thickness by 0.008" on the inside of the tube.

Laing

[Eric Daume]

A real dropper is a lot handier to use, especially when the trail is rolling up and down. Being able to push a button on the bar and drop the saddle for a quick slope or hard corner is great. It’s not about riding up and then down. It’s up down up down up down….

Eric

Now a dropper fan 

In Ohio where the hills roll. 

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[Richard Rose]

Where at in Ohio? No rollers up here in Toledo.

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On Oct 20, 2022, at 11:13 AM, Eric Daume <eric...@gmail.com> wrote:

A real dropper is a lot handier to use, especially when the trail is rolling up and down. Being able to push a button on the bar and drop the saddle for a quick slope or hard corner is great. It’s not about riding up and then down. It’s up down up down up down….

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[Paul Clifton]

I ride my Gus as my primary mountain bike. I have ridden a Rosco Bebe, and MTBubbe, a Jones and a full suspension Knolly Warden on the same trails for several years. All of then except for the Jones use 27.5 wheels: max tire sizes = MTBubbe and Rosco Bebe 2.35", Jones 29x3", Knolly 2.5", Gus 2.8". I didn't measure those, that's the nominal size of tire I run on them.

Of them all, the Gus is my favorite for everything short of black diamond downhill. I also don't jump or drop anymore (or for the time being) so on blue/black flow trails, I brake over the table tops and roll around the gaps.

The Rosco Bebe and MTBubbe are similar to a Clem L in a lot of ways. The Bebe has shorter chainstays, a 68 degree seat tube, and a longer effective top tube, so it requires Bosco bars. The MTBubbe is a relatively short bike in terms of modern Rivs, and it's extremely agile, yet stable. Like an old school MTB but without the endo potential and twitchy handling. They are both totally capable of handling all trails, and I've even ridden plenty of black downhill trails on the MTBubbe with the seat lowered a bit, and I've take a few good sized drops on it. It's all around just a really good mountain bike. It's super agile and feels like riding a skateboard sometimes, because it's so small. It fits me; it's just a little bike and I love it.

The Jones basically just rolls over anything without question. The huge wheels really change the way I approach the trails. Which leads me to my first big point

• What size Gus/Susie would you get? wheel size
  

29er wheels vs 27.5 is a legitimate concern when thinking about a mountain bike. I know I like 27.5 wheels better, but a lot of modern trails assume you're riding a 29x2.5 to 29x2.8 tire and the size of the rocks and rollers is engineered with that in mind. And bigger wheels just roll over more stuff easier. For me, it's easy to let the Jones (and Knolly) get out of control on descents, and on the Jones, it's harder to reign it in, because the wheels just keep going. That's a rider thing, but my fat 27.5 Gus rolls over everything, just without being completely unphased. It experiences the bumps more, and therefore, so do it.

My second big comment is about dropper posts - I would also like to have a dropper post on my Gus, but I don't actually think it matters much. I still like the Gus more than my Jones or Knolly that both have them. When I get to the trail, I lower my seat about 2 cm and usually just leave it that way. Short of really gnarly downhill stuff (and I do mean really gnarly), I'm able to get my butt back far enough to handle it. I just bought a QR seat post bolt, so that should make my life even easier.

Which brings me to my third point: handlebars

Riv put Boscos on the Gus and Susy. That makes for a great upright riding position, but IME, they are bad for mountain biking. They hit my legs when I go around switch backs and the wrist angle makes it hard to hang on properly when I'm getting my butt back to go down steep stuff. I put a 35mm stem and Tumbleweed Pursuader bars on mine and it changed the ride for the better in nearly every possible way. The mostly straight bars still sometimes hit my legs on the sharpest downhill switch backs, but I think that's a me problem and not a bike problem (a dropper would prob help that though).

Handling - The Gus handling is very responsive - like the best modern MTBs, it's really easy to change the direction of the front wheel, to quickly correct a line or keep it from flopping over when you hit a rock the wrong way. Unlike modern MTBs, it holds its line extremely well, on rough stuff AND when cruising. The length of the bike keeps it rolling smoothly, even when the chunk tries to throw it around, so, unlike a full suspension modern MTB with short chainstay and a steep seat tube, it's stable on more than just the fast descents, ...

so there's Climbing - The Gus is the most fun I've had climbing on an MTB ever. It is hard to get the front wheel up over ledges, but the back wheel is always completely planted and when it grabs a rock, the pedals just keep it rolling. Tubeless 27.5x2.8 tires just kind of squish into any surface and push the bike on up. It's hard to describe, but it's really wonderful. As has been mentioned, I also climb easier and faster on it than a lot of people on modern MTBs around here, especially full squish, which I'm more and more convinced gives up a lot in the climbing department.

I would absolutely choose my Gus for my single bike. The only reason I haven't sold the Jones yet is that I want to get the Gus out on a singletrack bikepacking trip, just to see how it compares loaded. I'm sure it would make a great camping bike, especially on forest service roads, but I do wonder whether the 29er wheels on the Jones are better for loaded singletrack.

My only other comment is about terrain. As others have mentioned, where you ride makes a huge difference. In NW Arkansas, we have lots of roots, rocks of all sizes, narrow trails, steep grades, and plenty of places where some basic trials skills are required. I do walk some sections of some trails on any bike I ride. We also have plenty of black diamond downhill trails that take you rolling down vertical rock slabs and off washed out ledges. No bike that performs exceptionally on that stuff is going to be fun riding on a paved, flat, multi-use path along a creek for very long. If you doing shuttle runs, get a full suspension bike. If you're doing long mixed terrain rides (MUP to gravel to single track and back) something more versatile is obviously the move. And even when I drive to the trail, I like the Gus better than a modern MTB with slacker head tube and steeper seat tube - it's more comfortable and just as capable.

I'd love to see photos of everyone's terrain. Here are a few of my Gus that show some of the gnarlier stuff I rode on a 20 mile single track and path ride a couple sundays ago: https://www.pandastuff.net/nextcloud/index.php/s/teREsXEdGSErnGk

Paul in AR

[Paul Clifton]

I just want to reiterate my thoughts on droppers, because there's a lot of dropper evangelism in this thread, and I know Eric isn't saying droppers are necessary, and I do agree with everyone that they're nice to have, BUTTTTTT I tend to side with Grant on this:

Lower the seat 1.5 to 2 cm from your normal seat height and just leave it there.

That will probably give you enough room to move around on the bike to ride everything short of really steep stuff.

Modern MTBs basically require a dropper post, because it's nearly impossible to stand and climb, especially with rear suspension, regardless of linkage design. They are made for seated climbining, but to keep the front wheel on the ground while you're climbing seated, you have to get your weight over the front wheel, which requires a HIGH seat. And to get back far enough to go downhill, that HIGH seat has to get out of the way, so you have to drop it or you'll endo.

The Gus doesn't work that way. You can climb seated or standing, and a sort of in between seat height allows that. Same for descending, you're not going over the bars, so you can descend seated on smooth stuff and if it gets chunky or steep a slightly lower saddle gives you the space to stand up and move back enough.

It's really only when stuff gets scary steep and you want your butt way behind the saddle that it's a problem, and if that's less than 10% of your riding, a QR (or a wrench) will be sufficient.

Paul

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[Danny]

I'm not sure if this company is still in business, and I can't speak to the quality of their product, but I found them while searching for a dropper option for my dad this past year. (He's lost some flexibility in his hip as he's aged, so I thought a dropper might make mounting/dismounting his bike easier.)

https://gravitydropper.com/products/

They offer a 26.8 option for all their products.

If anyone has any experience w/ the company or their products, please chime in.

Hoping to get out on some MTB trails next week w/ my Susie. Swapped out the Billie bars for a bullmoose setup and looking forward to seeing how it handles. Like others have said, the Susie is a really lively ride and a joy to be on. I've yet to try a Gus or Clem in my size, so not much help for comparison there.

-Danny

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[iamkeith]

Paul's analysis is spot-on in my experience.  Nonetheless:  here's a 26.8 droppee opton.  Original and still the best.  (Or you could use a hite-rite too, wich I suppose is the REAL original.  I think I'll end up with one of those on my Susie, eben though it won't be my trail bike)

[iamkeith]

Oops.  Forgot the link: to gravity dropper  but Danny was posting it simultaneously.

ht

[Mike Packard]

I'm also enjoying this thread. One thing I've wondered about WRT Susie-Gus vs. Clem: Is the reach / effective top tube shorter on Susie/Gus than Clem of similar size? I have a 59 Clem L that is great but even with a very short stem flat-ish bars are too far away.

mike

[Richard Rose]

I wonder about this exactly. If something works for someone I am the last to question it. But, in my time off road with the Clem the long stem and backsweep of the Bosco are GOLD! This position and the way it makes the bike feel / handle are pretty much my only reason for considering a Susie. I know it goes against everything that says “mountain bike” but I am looking to get away from straight bars. Just today I swapped out a 12 degree backsweep bar for a 35 degree one. Feels better but does not feel as good as the Clem.

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On Oct 20, 2022, at 6:01 PM, Mike Packard <mrg...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jason Fuller]

Yes good discussion! Paul, it's neat and surprising to hear from another Knolly rider here of all places - I rode a Chilcotin (the older 26" version) for a bunch of years!  Sold it about a year ago and replaced it with an Esker Japhy steel hardtail as a bike that was more my style, but still capable of riding black / double black trails. I absolutely love the way a hardtail climbs, and rides in general - I do find I get fatigued quicker on it vs. the full suspension bike, but otherwise it's all good things - I can still ride everything I ought to be riding, but I'm tasked with a little more care in my line choices and when to elect to walk, which is healthy. I'm fully committed to the plan of picking up a Stooge mk6 when they come out next year to replace the Japhy, and put myself back in the realm of fully rigid steel bikes across the board. 

[Ryan Frahm]

Because this thread needs some pictures. 

[Keith Paugh]

I kept double tapping, trying to “like.”

k.

On Oct 21, 2022, at 7:48 AM, Ryan Frahm <fra...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Ryan Frahm]

Ha! Thanks. On a similar note, I use an iPad exclusively. My wife had something on her laptop and I kept trying to scroll on the screen. Her laptop does not do that…

[Joe Bernard]

I was reading a book a while back and tried to pinch the screen to zoom in. It was a real book. Paper. 

[Richard Rose]

Paul, just re-reading your post & looking at the pics. The G-Ones? Is that your tire of choice for the trails you ride? I expected something more aggressive but I bet they roll fast?

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On Oct 20, 2022, at 11:43 AM, Paul Clifton <paulgc...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Richard Rose]

Paul, regarding your wheel size comments; what is your saddle height if I may ask? I sometimes get a little frustrated by PBH measurements. There is built in inaccuracy imho taking that measurement. Look at this pic of a Riv staff bike. This is a size 56 with presumably 29” wheels. My best guess as to my PBH would be 84. The owner of this bike is 85.5. If it were as simple as that I might conclude that I should ride the 56 vs. the 53. BUT, if I knew the saddle height of the pictured bike it would be more useful I think. It is complicated by the fact that I use a 2-3 cm lower saddle height than a 84 PBH might suggest because I have adopted a mid foot pedal position. I would love to know the saddle height of the pictured bike. Like you, I like the 27.5 wheels and could probably make both sizes work.

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On Oct 20, 2022, at 11:43 AM, Paul Clifton <paulgc...@gmail.com> wrote:



[Brian Turner]

I’m right there with you, Richard. I think PBH gets you in the ballpark, but I always feel like a bit of an oddball whenever I read Rivendell talk about how to figure it in relation to saddle height. 

For example, I’m 5’8” with a 84cm PBH. However, my saddle height is consistently 71-72cm across all my bikes, so I always feel like I’m riding my saddles lower than I should be. But, if I raise them any higher, I get knee pain immediately.

On Oct 22, 2022, at 1:53 PM, Richard Rose <rmro...@gmail.com> wrote:

Paul, regarding your wheel size comments; what is your saddle height if I may ask? I sometimes get a little frustrated by PBH measurements. There is built in inaccuracy imho taking that measurement. Look at this pic of a Riv staff bike. This is a size 56 with presumably 29” wheels. My best guess as to my PBH would be 84. The owner of this bike is 85.5. If it were as simple as that I might conclude that I should ride the 56 vs. the 53. BUT, if I knew the saddle height of the pictured bike it would be more useful I think. It is complicated by the fact that I use a 2-3 cm lower saddle height than a 84 PBH might suggest because I have adopted a mid foot pedal position. I would love to know the saddle height of the pictured bike. Like you, I like the 27.5 wheels and could probably make both sizes work.

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[Ryan Frahm]

Those numbers sound close enough in my world. I run 12 ish cm lower than my PBH and it feels perfect. I do ride in sandals all the time, flip flops a lot, so I think that has me slightly lower than recommended. At 10 cm less I have knee pain as well. 

[Richard Rose]

This is why I think there are too many ways to screw up that measurement. I am 5’10” and consistently measure PBH at or near 85-86. I have my saddles at 72 across the board. I did have my saddles higher before moving to the mid foot position.

In any event, I sent an e mail to Antonio @ Riv to ask about the saddle height on his Susie - 75.

That settles it for me. If I get the opportunity to purchase a Susie / Gus it will be the 53. Which is ok - I like 27.5 too!:)

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On Oct 22, 2022, at 3:47 PM, Brian Turner <brok...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Paul Clifton]

@frahm - Awesome shot. Looks like a fun trail. Where is that?

@Jason - The Knolly is definitely a fun bike, but I consider moving to a hard tail all the time. I just don't get wild enough to take advantage of a full suspension bike. I kind of think i would still like to have a bike with some suspension in my stable. My shoulders are starting to feel the trail a little too much these days, but hopefully some strength and mobility work will sort that out. I definitely want to keep a bike around for the occasional trip to the downhill spots, so I'll prob always have something around with modern geo.

@rmrose

Handlebars - The bars I'm running definitely aren't straight, they just aren't anywhere near as swept back as the Bosco. Tumbleweed Pursuader It's 50mm rise and 31 degree back sweep. It's also 800mm wide, which is too wide. I'm about to swap them for Velo Orange Seine bars, are narrower (750 mm), have a little more sweep, and a little less rise. And I'll try Wavies after that, but I think 660mm wide is too narrow, and they may have too much sweep for my wrists ... We'll see. The main thing is that the Boscos, even with a 110mm stem, hit my knees going around switch backs. I love the upright position for cruising, but it just didn't work for trail riding. A shorter stem and wider bars does change the handling a bit - It's a little more responsive I'd say, so with the long stem and Boscos, the handling is a little mellower and the bike swoops a bit more.

Tires - Yeah, G-one's are great! I've found that for me, aggressive tread is really only necessary when conditions get a little sloppy, and we got basically zero rain all summer, so I haven't needed it. We'll see what the fall brings, but we're not supposed to ride muddy trails either - but that's more like when the entire trail is just wet. When it rains two or three days a week, there are always muddy spots a day or two after it rains, but we've pretty much been cleared to ride at that point. Just not like the 24 hours after a solid storm. Anyway, the 2.8's G ones grip every bit of bone dry trail and rock I've thrown at them, and since I cruise on this bike too, I like running the smoothest tire that gets the job done. I'll prob try the Terravails eventually and I have some 57mm G one's to try out as well, but changing tubeless tires is a PITA so I might dig up some more wheels. My Knolly has pretty aggressive tires (Maxis Asegai in the front) and it really digs in to the soft stuff and grabs the slabs, but I haven't come close to washing out on the G Ones in the dry dirt or rocks at all.

Saddle Height - My saddle in those photos is at about 68cm. My PBH is like 82cm, but I don't remember what shoes I was wearing when I measured it. My saddle height for path cruising is about 71cm, but, like I said, I drop it a couple CM for riding single track, and I don't always put it back up. For the medium Gus, my saddle height is just slightly too low to run a Carradice bag with a bagman rack, but it works great with a more typical rear rack. It's also a little too low to run a standard medium size BagsxBird saddle bag without a rack (I think).

Paul in AR

[Ryan Frahm]

Thanks Paul! It’s just a small section of little trails close to home. Spokane Valley, WA. Lots of fun lines to play around on. 

I had these Crust Juan Martin bars on for a bit but switched back to the Bosco. Ruptured a tendon climbing and using the brake has been tough. These bars definitely make it a mountain bike instead of a cruiser! These are the 720mm ones. After trying the wide 800mm bars for a while, narrower is just easier and n my shoulders. 

[Mackenzy Albright]

I think the PBH guideline is intended to be imperfect as are bodies. If one wanted exact physiological measurements you can goto a bike fitter and get exact measurements. With PBH it provides a wide margin of fit based on aesthetic preferences (or wheel size) within those margins as presented by Grant/Riv. I have an 89.5 give or take on the day (i have a crap neck and lower back and stiffness can definitely effect how I like my bike to fit) I can easily ride a 59 or 64 clem. I pretty well run a saddle height spindle to top of saddle 32.5" constantly. In terms of the chart I am exactly in the middle of the 59 as an ideal fit. I wouldn't size down as that is my aesthetic preference. I don't mind sizing up as I don't mind the look. As Grant has mentioned, with a step over the real limiting factor is the minimum post insertion. Even with the Clem Jr a few CM longer than the Clementine I can easily adjust fit with the stem and bar type. I also have them set up quite differently for different tasks. I've come to really appreciate the PBH as a guideline for fit vs any sort of "professional fit" guidelines. I have Ehlers danlos syndrome (crap ligaments) and often struggle to maintain aggressive positions for sustained periods. But I've found "riv fit" to be quite flexible and forgiving. I have really obsessed over fit in the past, but really have come to realize there is a large amount of flexibility if you're not a racer going for micro gains. 

@ frahm those Juan Martin bars look great! i am going to set my clem smith jr up with a similar bar and a shorty stem I think. Go chase some full squishy mtbs down the trails. 

[Garth]

((( Laughing )) .... I hate it when anyone asks "what's your pbh ?" It's like asking "what's your sign ?" As if it means what ... ?

Going by crotch height alone totally ignores/assumes what frame reach someone may want/need. If you're a everyday cyclist it's very helpful to teach yourself about these things. Posting the frame stack and reach is very helpful, but the guys @Riv don't make it easily known. Bike fitters and formulas are all geared certain "outputs" that go along with their biased "inputs".  If you don't like their answers, it's better to do it yourself as no one knows you better. You can get creative and think outside the boxes of cycling "conventions"(like crank length for example), which largely go unchallenged by most.

Now, if I didn't know exactly the dimensions of a frame I need I may have bought other stock Rivs and been sadly disappointed and sold them due to a too short of frame reach. I don't dig the high bar/upright "driving Miss Daisy" thing at all either. I tried it and found I liked much more forward leaning positions and bars no higher than the saddle, even with Albatross bars. I'm as flexible on the bike as I ever was and will put on some drop bars over the winter as that's a good time to mess with such things. I can still ride in a comfortable race-like position and have a "heads up" view. Having a strong core is most helpful. I'm thoroughly enjoying
riding fast with the pedal to the metal this year. Just hammer and stop thinking ! Ahahahahahaaaa !  Hammer hammer hammer and when you're done hammering ..... hammer some more ! It's not about time or distance, it's about F U N ! Just let go of "I am so and so thus limited to so and so" , and BE the fun ! Life is inherently FUN !, lest there be LIFE at all .  I can drive like Miss Daisy in my pickup truck but I don't want to ride my bike like that !    Hammer time, yipeee !

[J.C. Bryant]

I'm right there with you, Garth. The best way for me to estimate fit is to compare stack/reach and other frame dimensions to any of my current bikes that fit me well. I also wish Rivendell would be more forthcoming with that information. I get that they're trying to make things easier/simpler by reducing it all down to PBH and PBH alone, but that doesn't quite do it for a lot of us. I'm sure there's a reason they've taken down all their geometry and stopped posting frame specs altogether but your guess is as good as mine. I don't need them to go full bicycle quarterly but it'd be nice to get some more details.

Similarly, I have the same feeling about upright riding positions. I feel much more stable on a bicycle with more weight over the front wheel. Maybe it's just what I'm used to but I feel unstable and sluggish with all of my weight over the rear of the bike. Maybe I'd have a better experience on a long-wheelbase Riv that's designed around that position, but like you, I'm perfectly happy hammering away in a somewhat-race-y position on my somewhat-race-y bikes. For now, at least.

Despite this, I still love looking at all the beautiful upright Rivs that have been posted lately. The Platypus has some really attractive lines and I've been enamored with the Susie/Gus frames ever since they came out. I reckon I will reconsider my riding position someday, especially if I hang onto the notion that I'd like it better on the right bike. Who knows, maybe I'll end up with a Gus or a Platypus if my curiosity gets the best of me.

[Igor]

I still want a susie or gus, again, but also find that I have a suspension fork and a carbon wheelset laying around that wouldn't work on either, ha! and I own two Stooge bikes...

[Nick Shoemaker]

Just went full Hilli with my Clem, replacing some 2.25 G-One Allrounds with a 2.6 Mezcal (actual 2.55) in back and a 2.6 Nobby Nic (actual 2.4) in the front. Might as well be a new bike - can’t say enough good things about the Clem! Rode some technical singletrack today and had a blast! Some observations that may be helpful to others thinking of going full MTB with their Hillies:

-Clutch derailleur is going on asap! Dropped my chain thrice on chunky decents. In this context I think clutch easily trumps rapidrise

-Clem BB is lower than I’m used to (coming from FS 26”), even with the big 2.6 tires. Not a showstopper, but had more pedal strikes than I’m used to.

-Alba/dirt drop combo was surprisingly great; no slippage to report, but I will probably tilt them down a bit next time to take some pressure off my wrists; I’m going to try Soma Ospreys next, but the swept back position combined with the long chainstays was incredibly confidence-inspiring. I let loose on a downhill jump line and the bike never came close to bucking me or forcing me airborne. Was still able to book it :)

-Big tires fit! The Mezcal 2.6 is huge. Probably too big for the rear (maybe), but it doesn’t rub on my Cliffhanger with a tube. No chain rub either using the new Riv 7s cassette. The Schwalbe 2.6 is way smaller, seems par for the course with Schwalbes though. Don’t give up on your Clem until you’ve maxed out the tires and dropped the pressure to 20ish or less!

[Luke Hendrickson]

Paul – great info and analysis. How’re you liking the Schwalbes? I’m tempted by them. 

On Thursday, October 20, 2022 at 9:42:12 PM UTC-7 Jason Fuller wrote:

[Paul Clifton]

The 2.8" G-Ones are OK. Not great. Definitely not bad. The 2.8s only come in the DD Raceguard compound, which I don't think is the supplest.

They're just really fat and a little hard to push on pavement. But they are a lot of fun on the single track, and until I get them into some real mud, I think they're all I need. Basically, they ride like a really good touring tire, I think. Plenty comfortable, plenty capable, plenty durable, but not especially supple or fast.

Of course, the air pressure can really impact how supple they feel, and to a degree, change how boggy they feel.

I'd really like a 2.5" or 2.6" tire with a similar tread and a suppler casing. The Scwalbe Big Ones were a chubby 60mm and they were my favorite for a long time. They weren't quite enough on single track,  and the skinnier G Ones - 57mm - probably won't be either.

I really think these fat G-Ones do so well on the single track because of their chub, not the tread. And I'm going to keep them on at least long enough for me to ride them in the deep sand at the beach this winter. I have a feeling they'll do even better than the Big Ones there.

If the WTB Ranger was available in 27.5 right now, I'd give that a try. I hear good things about the Teravail Ehline in 27.5 x 2.5, but it has a more aggressive tread than I want for riding on pavement.

So for an all around bike that sees 50% single track and 50% pavement, I think these are about as good as it gets.

Paul

[Luke Hendrickson]

I appreciate the input on the sorta terrain you’re on with them. Since my Riv is my do-it-all, I spend time on fire roads, single track, paved, and everything in between. The Maxxis tires currently on the bike are tough wearing and durable. Supple is sorta down the list in desired qualities (although some Ultradynamico tires may be in my near future).

Thanks again, Paul.

—Luke

[J]

Paul-

Regarding the tires you've mentioned having and considering I have ridden most. WTB Ranger 27.5x2.8" came stock on a hard tail a few years ago. They were a fantastic mate to the WTB wheels and stayed sealed for I don't know how long after the sealant had long dried up riding mostly MTB single track and desert track. They were great for pretty much everything on the East coast and PNW, but in the desert I decided I need some more sidewall tread tooth. I would consider them quite supply for MTB use. I switched to the G-Ones for an extended weekend tour with a fair bit of road on route, and found them no better rolling than the ranger, fairly grippy on hardpack single track and pretty awful on anyhting loose or wet. I switched back to the Ranger within a month. I bought a 2nd hand pair of wheels that came with 2.6" Vittoria Mezcals that I'd planned to just toss in the parts bin due to ugliness but they had a bit more tooth than the Rangers so I threw them on the hardtail for some extra grip in the AZ desert and on the first ride was blown away at how fast they were on the pavement for the miles leading to the trail head. I was faster on the a hardtail riding 27.5x2.6" tires than I was on my drop bar all road riding 650bx47mm tires, every time I tested the results. The Mezcals actually measure 2.8 on the WTB i40 rims. They are the fastest MTB tires I've ever used, and hold sealant great, fairly supple. Ugly, but fast. 

[Joe Mullins]

Luke,

I'm so sorry for your loss. What a nice story behind your Atlantis. The build is great but the story behind it makes it extra special. Thanks for sharing it with us!

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[Luke Hendrickson]

I appreciate it. ❤️

[Michael Williams]

If we’re talking tires,  take a look at the Kenda Booster Pro.   It comes in 29x 2.6 and 27.5x2.8 and both in 120 TPI with standard casing and a more puncture resistant casing,  both tubeless ready.    I have the 29x2.2 version and they are a surprisingly fast and not buzzy on pavement and very very grippy tire on gravel and single track.  I have them in the standard casing and they feel really solid and don’t squirm with running lower pressure.   

A quick look at the tech specs and the claimed weights are very light for a 29x2.6 tire( 681 +/-34 g for the standard casing and 763 +/- 38g for the more puncture resistant casing.   Again,  I only have the 29x2.2 tires so can’t speak of real world experience of the 29x 2.6 or 27.5x2.8 but if the characteristics carry over,  it is a wonderfully fast and grippy tire

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 29, 2022, at 7:50 PM, Luke Hendrickson <phendr...@paulpath.net> wrote:

I appreciate it. ❤️

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/fe4d1744-4405-4d37-92d3-d9429f06bdc9n%40googlegroups.com.

[Ryan Frahm]

I’ll chime in on the Teravail Ehline vs the Ranger. Granted, I ran a 3” Ranger tough vs the Light 2.5 Ehline, but the Ranger was extremely slow in comparison. I haven’t tried the Vittoria, but I’ve heard they are great tires. That being said, when I need new tires they will likely be Rene Herse Fleecer Ridge endurance casing. They are fantastic all around tires, worth the extra $ in my experience. 

[Brian Turner]

I’m running the Ehline 27.5 x 2.5 on my Gus currently. I had them on a previous bike that was a dedicated trail bike, and I liked them for that purpose a lot, so I knew what to expect. So far, I’m riding my Gus 50/50 dirt/pavement and I’ve actually been pleasantly surprised at how well they roll on paved surfaces. Pretty quiet, too. I doubt I’m going to be doing any long paved rides, but for knocking around town and shorter paved trips 30 mi or less, they are quite enjoyable. 

All this said, if Jan H. decided to make a tire slightly bigger than the Umtanum or Fleecer Ridge in the 2.5” / 2.6” range, I would buy them in an instant. Those RH knobbies perform equally well and roll fast and quiet on all surfaces in my opinion and experience.

On Oct 30, 2022, at 10:56 AM, Ryan Frahm <fra...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ll chime in on the Teravail Ehline vs the Ranger. Granted, I ran a 3” Ranger tough vs the Light 2.5 Ehline, but the Ranger was extremely slow in comparison. I haven’t tried the Vittoria, but I’ve heard they are great tires. That being said, when I need new tires they will likely be Rene Herse Fleecer Ridge endurance casing. They are fantastic all around tires, worth the extra $ in my experience. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/27898d30-0678-4d08-9d15-d942a3a61aa2n%40googlegroups.com.

[Ryan Frahm]

I agree and would love to see a RH tire in a larger size. So many of us would I imagine! I remember reading that Panaracer is not able to make a larger tire for them so I don’t know if it will happen. A 2.6 version would sell like hotcakes I think!

[Richard Rose]

This is slightly / funny to me. A fatbike was my first experience with 1. A rigid MTB, and 2. Large volume tires. The experience convinced me that with large volume tires I could not only get by but really enjoy Rigid. Then plus tires hit & I bought a Marin Pine Mountain 1, a rigid steel MTB with 2.8“ x 27.5” tires. It was a freaking blast & relatively cheap @ under $1k. This in turn got me hot for a Jones 29 - “THE” rigid MTB. This preceded the Jones “plus” bikes, but I ran it comfortably with 29” x 3” up front & 2.5” in the rear. That bike also was a ton of fun everywhere I rode it. It simply rolled over everything. 

But, I developed a little spinal stenosis eventually requiring (successful) surgery. My surgeon suggested I move to a full suspension bike. What could I do? Doctors orders!:)

So I found a good deal on a Ibis Mojo 3. The Jones became my everything else other than trail bike. But as such, I started to notice hand / wrist issues with the Jones loop bar as well as the 12 degree sweep bars on the Ibis. Enter (finally) my interest in the Clem. I reasoned that the upright, sweptback, long wheelbase with plush tires might be just the ticket to replace the Jones.

I was right!! It’s been superb & easily the most comfortable bike to ride I have ever owned. But what surprised me was / is how much fun it is on the trail. Thus my extreme interest in getting either a Susie / Gus to replace the full squish bike or, get a second set of wheels for the Clem to get some proper trail tires for dedicated trail use. With the long wheelbase the ride is such that I think I can live without suspension. I had thought plus bikes where all but dead, but I see this crowd still loved them. Susie / Gus; best plus bikes ever?

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 30, 2022, at 12:45 PM, Ryan Frahm <fra...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree and would love to see a RH tire in a larger size. So many of us would I imagine! I remember reading that Panaracer is not able to make a larger tire for them so I don’t know if it will happen. A 2.6 version would sell like hotcakes I think!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/9fc975f5-1084-4148-88d9-68da542ec722n%40googlegroups.com.

[Richard Rose]

The only conclusion (?) I can get from this tire discussion on Susie / Gus & possibly Clems is - get a duplicate set of wheels. One for pavement / gravel, and a dedicated set for MTB with proper knobbies. Anything less seems a compromise?

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 30, 2022, at 12:14 PM, Brian Turner <brok...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Ryan Frahm]

The only conclusion I can come up with is N+1. I thought, maybe I’ll just sell my Susie, I absolutely love my Clem H. Had to take the Clem apart for service, it’s getting a new fork and a full powder coat job. Tried to throw the 2.5 Ehline from my Susie in just to see. Honestly a bit tight for my comfort. The Susie has tons of tire clearance for mud side to side, I couldn’t get much more height because I’m within 3mm of the brake (rubber boot, without I guess a 2.8 would fit with similar room) in the rear. 

My Susie rides more lively and (likely the tire size) smooth. Unless I decide to have a custom frame made or go with something from Tanglefoot (71 degree seat tube angle!), I can’t see selling the Susie. I just kinda wish it was 27.5” in my size.  I like the smaller wheel for the exploration riding I do. The Susie has more clearance and the tubes flex a lot to give a nice ride. The Clem is stout and ready for anything. They are both such great bikes, if they fit your bike needs. But, catch me on the right day and a large gold Susie might be for sale!

Anybody else excited to see the new Ronnie Romance aluminum (gasp!) ATB bike? 27.5x2.6 capable rim brake adventure bike. Nice. 

[scott minor]

Speaking of tires for Gus, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Bontrager XR2.  Having ridden most of Rene Herse's offerings on several different bikes, including Fleecer Ridge on a Clem L (I no longer own), I am really enjoying the XR2 which feels a like a bigger RH tire.  It is relatively light for a 2.6 tire and has the characteristics I was looking for.  Fast rolling 120 TPI and evenly spaced knobbies all the way around.  They are a great option for Gus.  They just fit under Paul motolites with about 10mm of clearance at the brake cable crossing point just above the center of the tire. I like the benefit of this tire more than the benefit of this particular brake, and with this tight clearance I am now considering 'downgrading' to longer/taller V-brakes.  

[Ryan Frahm]

Great looking Gus! The XR2 is a great tire. They were sold out everywhere when I picked up the Ehline or I’d gave probably gone for them. I’d love to have a full cm of rear clearance between my brake. With the 2.5 Ehline and a DXR I have 3mm tops with the rubber brake noodle in place. I have plenty of space up front but the rear is very tight. I was really hoping for a 2.8 to fit easily but I don’t think it will. If I have to go to a 2.2 to have proper mud clearance the bike starts to make less sense for me. 

[Brian Turner]

I am also running Motolites on my Gus (54cm) and have a full 1cm of clearance from the brake cable on the front, and 7mm on the rear. 27.5x2.5 Ehlines. With that tight of a tolerance, I’d probably need to consult with someone who has real experience with a particular tire / same brake setup before I tried anything larger.

On Oct 31, 2022, at 10:31 AM, Ryan Frahm <fra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Great looking Gus! The XR2 is a great tire. They were sold out everywhere when I picked up the Ehline or I’d gave probably gone for them. I’d love to have a full cm of rear clearance between my brake. With the 2.5 Ehline and a DXR I have 3mm tops with the rubber brake noodle in place. I have plenty of space up front but the rear is very tight. I was really hoping for a 2.8 to fit easily but I don’t think it will. If I have to go to a 2.2 to have proper mud clearance the bike starts to make less sense for me. 

On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 7:18:17 AM UTC-7 psc...@gmail.com wrote:

Speaking of tires for Gus, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Bontrager XR2.  Having ridden most of Rene Herse's offerings on several different bikes, including Fleecer Ridge on a Clem L (I no longer own), I am really enjoying the XR2 which feels a like a bigger RH tire.  It is relatively light for a 2.6 tire and has the characteristics I was looking for.  Fast rolling 120 TPI and evenly spaced knobbies all the way around.  They are a great option for Gus.  They just fit under Paul motolites with about 10mm of clearance at the brake cable crossing point just above the center of the tire. I like the benefit of this tire more than the benefit of this particular brake, and with this tight clearance I am now considering 'downgrading' to longer/taller V-brakes.  

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[Hoch in ut]

I haven’t heard of the Ronnie aluminum ATB. Any details you can post? A link? 

[Ryan Frahm]

Unfortunately there are no details yet, just teasers. Supposed to be something like the purple M2 specialized he’s been riding but with 27.5 up to 2.6” tire and some tweaks he thinks will make it better. My favorite rides are mountain goating around and having to carry through sections. Exploration rides. So the light bike seems like it would be fun for that. But there are only 50 frames made for the first run. Made by a guy in Vermont I think. They will likely sell in seconds. No idea on a price for the frame/fork yet so who knows. Similar ugly as sin front dropouts as the Wombat is the only downside I could see from the teaser. Looks like something on a bike from Walmart. There is a picture on the ronsbikes instagram. 

I looked but couldn’t find the full picture I had seen somewhere, sorry!

[DavidP]

Here's a recent teaser photo of the Crust AL bike:

-Dave (looking at too many bikes while finalizing parts for a Platy build)

[lconley]

Looks like a torture device. The only thing that rides worse than straight aluminum forks, would be straight aluminum disc forks. I know:

Laing

[Eric Daume]

Looks like the same low stack as a genuine 90s mtb. Not for me. 

Eric

Plain City OH

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[iamkeith]

Actually, it looks to me like steel blades in an aluminum crown - not unlike the bontrager composite forks that were popular upgrades in the early 90s.  I kind of dig it.  To each his own  but I also really like the dropouts.  Reminds me of sturdy bmx forks - as well as early klunker upgrade forks - not wallmart.  Clearly I'm swooned by historical references though.

[Ryan Frahm]

This is what my rear clearance looks like 29x2.5 Ehline. I know I know, take the boot off. Haha. 

[Ryan Frahm]

And thank you Dave for tracking that down! It looks like a lot of fun for certain rides. I Think Keith is right about the steel blades. 

[Hoch in ut]

Thanks for the photo and details. 

I don’t think stack will be an issue. It’s obvious made for swept back riser bars (ie Ortho, Bosco, Albatross, etc). Handlebars look about level with the saddle in the picture. I personally have my Romanceur set up with about 1” drop (with Albatross). . 

I’m looking forward to its release. I don’t do well with super upright riding position( Gus, Suz, Clem). I like the slightly sporty riding position with riser bars. 

[Brian Turner]

Here’s a front-on shot of that AI Crust fork crown, if anyone is interested.

On Oct 31, 2022, at 9:35 PM, Hoch in ut <cack...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the photo and details. 

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[Ryan Frahm]

I’m really curious what the frameset will end up priced at. And when those Ortho bars will be back! Haha. It they were a 25.4 instead of 26 bar clamp would make them seemingly perfect. Having to buy them and a new FacePlater means I’ll likely have Doom bend me something similar when they start taking orders again so I can keep the stem I have.