26.8mm seat post diameter??

[Hugh Smitham]

Maybe someone can answer this, why in the heck did Rivendell start making the seat tube inside diameter 26.8mm on the new bikes? I believe hearing something about seat tube wall thickness. Don't get me wrong, I think the new Geos make for a better ride, but it's way easier to find posts in 27.2mm all day long. 

Rivendell has the Nitto S83 in that diameter but it's a whopping 300 mm length 50 mm more than I need and also a whopping $128 before tax and shipping.

Rant over n out.

Hugh n LA

[Ron Frazelle]

Sometimes when it comes to manufacturing, it's just about part number rationalization...less part numbers to buy...less tooling costs. I don't know if all of the other models are 26.8, but if they are this could be the reasoning. It's just a guess though. 

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[Karl Wilcox]

It is not easy to find high quality alloy seat posts for my 2018 Roadini.  Note that when you purchase a Roadini frameset, it comes with a seat post!  That should tell you something.  

Cheers,

Karl

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[Joe Bernard]

I don't know the answer but I do know Riv also carries the S65 single-bolt in 250mm for $84. 

Joe Bernard

[Hugh Smitham]

Hey Fellas,

Thanks for the reply's.

Ron, honestly I know very little about bicycle frame manufacturing in terms of the decisions that go into ordering a batch of F&F.'s. I could certainly see creating a uniformity of parts and I'm sure Grant has some rationalization for going with this diameter seat tube but it effectively limited choices, virtually every seat post manufacturer makes a 27.2 mm post.

Karl, it does.

Joe,  they do but I prefer a dual bolt post. They are stronger and allow for better adjustment.

A friend of mine on the list here uses a suspension post, When Rivendell went to this seat post diameter it effectively limited him from buying any of the new frames because nobody makes his preferred suspension post in that diameter only in 27.2mm.

Perhaps I'll call Grant and ask the man himself why he made that decision. Somewhere I read that he wanted to create a thicker tube wall for more strength? Maybe there were some failures and he was future proofing? Maybe someone with better knowledge will chime in?

Hugh n LA

[Ron Frazelle]

Yeah, when I finally made the decision to actually buy a Rivendell instead of just lusting after one...I was actually surprised that the frames aren't spec'd with 27.2 seat tubes...its always been kinda the unofficial size for steel frames. 

It's Grant though, so.... 🤘

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[Toshi Takeuchi]

Yes my understanding is that if you want a thicker tube for strength, the outer diameter stays the same—I suppose so you can use the same lugs, but that means the inner diameter has to decrease, so you have a smaller seat tube diameter.

Toshi in Oakland 

[Hugh Smitham]

Toshi,

That's my understanding as well, it has to be thicker tubing walls for structural strength.

Perhaps the inconvenience of a different seat post diameter was the trade off to avoid frame warranty claims. In this case the slight inconvenience was shifted to the consumer. At the end of the day I suppose it's a small price to pay for Riv to remain viable.

Hugh

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[Nick Payne]

Lugs are made for 28.6mm (1-1/8") seat tubes. If the frame uses a seat tube with 0.7mm wall thickness at the top, then it will take a 27.2mm seatpost (28.6 - 2 * 0.7). If you use a seattube with thicker 0.9mm walls (say for a touring bike designed to carry a load), then that will take a 28.6mm seatpost. I have - in the past when racing bikes were made from steel - owned racing bikes that had even thinner tubing and took 27.4mm seatposts.

Nick

[Nick Payne]

On Tuesday, 19 October 2021 at 7:37:04 pm UTC+11 Nick Payne wrote:

If you use a seattube with thicker 0.9mm walls (say for a touring bike designed to carry a load), then that will take a 28.6mm seatpost.

That should have been 26.8mm seatpost, not 28.6.

[lconley]

Rivendell switched over to mostly 26.8 seatposts maybe 5-6 years ago when they started using thicker tubing across the board. My 1st Rivendell (of 13) was a sidepull double top tube all-blue Sam Hillborne in 2011 and was 27.2, every other Rivendell with a 28.6 (1-1/8) OD seat tube since has been 26.8 except the thin tubed Frank Jones Sr with a 27.2 and the Bombadil with a 27.0. I just wish that they would issue the lugged seatpost in 26.8. I put a 27.2 lugged seatpost in the Bombadil by honing the ID if the seat tube with an automotive brake cylinder hone. I use the hone on all my frames anyway to smooth the interior of the tube so that the frames don't scratch the seatposts. In the case of the Bombadil It just took a couple of evenings and an extra set of stones to enlarge the diameter. The Hubbuhubbuh and Clementine use even larger seat tubes and seat posts. My custom uses 31.8 OD tubes for the entire main triangle and uses a 29.0 seatpost (1.4mm thick seat tube) - made for an interesting search - ended up with an very cool 30 year old NOS Campagnolo Icarus MTB seatpost. I grew up on French bicycles, so alternate component standards were always part of cycling to me. Much more pleasurable using Google than telephoning multiple bike shops and hitch-hiking across the state in the seventies to get a 26.4 Campagnolo Record seatpost.

Laing

Delray Beach FL

[Eric Marth]

I asked Will about this recently and he said something to the effect that Grant didn't want to ream out as much from the seat tube hence thicker tube and thinner post. 

I'm with Laing and would like that lugged seatpost in a 26.8, please! 

[David Person]

Hi Hugh, I had my little rant about this same issue back on Nov 24th last year.  I assumed the change on the Hillbornes was made when they changed the style of the seat lug.  The ends of the seat stays on my 2015 Hillborne (sidepull brakes) where they meet the seat lug are of a different style than the current models.  I assumed that was the reason, but I notice the Platypus and the Appaloosa use the same style as my Hillborne, but both those frame take 26.8mm seatposts.  Seems odd that the wall thickness used in the seat tube of the Hillborne would change after 2015, but I guess it did, hence the change to 26.8mm seatposts.  Anyhow, I'm with you on this.  Definitely limits ones options.

[lconley]

Lugs attach to the OD of the tube and have nothing to do with the ID of the tube. My second Sam Hillborne, in orange metalflake,  had the same lugs as my 1st, but used the 26.8 seatpost.

Gotta go - the UPS guy is at the door with my Crust Clydesdale fork. I am going to call this latest creation Conley's Crustendell Clementine Clydesdale Cargo Cycle (but sadly awaiting the Cliffhanger rims till December). I love a good alliteration. The black fork even matches the black Clementine.

Laing Conley

Delray Beach FL

[David Person]

You'll have to post pics, Laing.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Laing, your point is exactly my point.  If you use the same lugs you do not change the OD otherwise the lugs would not work.  If you want to use the same lugs and want a thicker tube, then it must get thicker on the inside, so the inner diameter must decrease with a thicker tube.  That's my understanding of why the seat post is now smaller in diameter.

Toshi

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[Hugh Smitham]

I agree the lugs used (no matter the design) accept the same OS diameter tubing but Rivendell went with thicker walled tubing. The question is why? To me Grant not wanting to ream out the seat tube could effectively be solved by choosing a thinner walled tubing. I think it's a structural decision as I mentioned before. Laing, I wonder if by reaming out the inside of the seat tube you are voiding the warranty? Probably NBD unless you ride like Manny and need all the extra gussets and tube wall thickness. 

David, basically my issue boils down to lack of availability which obviously has been exacerbated by the pandemics supply chain disruption. Yet still if I want a 27.2 post NBD.

Eric and Laing, I agree with a lugged post in 26.8mm please!

 

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

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[Mackenzy Albright]

I've never found too much issue finding decent 26.8 used/bike co-oops. They seem to be pretty common on old touring bikes - eventually I upgraded my plain jane sugino to a simplex with a bit of searching. 

[Saturday Mark]

26.8 was just as common as 27.2 back in the 70's and 80's, prior to the now more . Riv has done 26.8 on a bunch of the step throughs since way back when. 

With that said, 26.8 is probably in short supply right now due to pandemic, but...

Nitto makes in crystal fellow and s83

Thomson makes 26.8

Kalloy Uno as well as their Crystal Fellow copy

+ a bunch of private label (Dimension, Sunlite, Origin8... etc) 

[lconley]

Probably voided the warranty, but the Bombadil would have been useless to me without the setback seatpost, I have a very long torso. It was on sale for $1800 brand new (normally $3000 back then) from Rivendell and was the correct 52cm for my legs, so I was going to make it work. Rivendell recommended a Hunqapillar for a touring bike for me, but Bombadil on sale was less expensive. i really didn't have to hone that much, the seatpost is a little less than 27.2 and the bike was a little more than 27.0, so the tube thickness removed was less than 1.0 mm.

Laing

[Karl Wilcox]

I decided to replace the 26.8 seat post that came with my Roadini; I discovered that 'Promax' makes a nice and light and high quality seatpost in 26.8 (it is 'SP-1' model and it comes in Red, Blue, Gold and Black (no silver).  It has served very nicely.  I also had trouble with both of my 26.8 seat posts slipping down over time with the Roadini frame.  I ended up using some carbon paste to solve that problem.  You can also have a machinist or frame builder put a nice grid pattern into the surface of the seatpost to keep it in place (Chris Kelly in Nevada City, Ca. has done that for me with other frames).  At any rate, the Promax seat post is the one to get in my opinion, and although it is kind of long, it only weighs about 9 ounces (and, of course, it can easily be cut down).

Cheers,

Karl

Weimar, CA.      

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[Garth]

Here is the previous thread about the 26.8 seatpost size.

https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/2ivUFNnqt-I/m/_wGi3ofDBwAJ

To Hugh and anyone else taking issue with the post size, by all means contact Grant @Riv. We can ask why 'till the comes come home here but not asking Grant/the designer is overlooking the obvious. Sure "they" @Riv may read this but to ask and complain without directing it to the source of the question is fruitless. Speculation speculates and that's all it does. 

I'm no fan of 26.8 either as I have some new 27.2 black Salsa Shafts awaiting frames. Those are by far the best post I've used, including the 2-bolt Nitto. I don't mind some black parts myself as they are so easy clean and they never corrode.

I've done a deep dive into 26.8 posts worldwide and while yes you can find some besides Nitto, the choices are meager. Then again even in 27.2 the choice isn't great as it seems on the surface. Many if not most of the lower cost posts are various rebranded Kalloys. Myself I wouldn't use one, mostly due to their shallow bolt design and some with a small clamp area.  If you're good at searching things online you'll find a few others but most are black, if that matters to you, and few if any have a full 23-25mm setback. So I ended right back to getting a Nitto S-83. The price is outrageous for a post if you really think about it...... but then again .... the egomaniaclal "I'm so offended....." doesn't discriminate as to what the offence may appear to be as long as it's fed. The only way to "win" that game is to not play at all and be on your very merry way.

The best looking 26.8 post that does have some setback is a Miche Supertype. Retroregression sells them in various colors but the silver has been out of stock since last year. They have gold and blue and red though ..... I would've gotten a gold one but decided to get a Nitto instead.

On Tuesday, October 19, 2021 at 12:24:06 PM UTC-4 Hugh Smitham wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

What I appreciate about that thread is the reminder of how little I had to say on the subject and how often I said it. Why was I talking?? 🤦

Joe "I have nothing to say.. repeatedly" Bernard

[Peter Adler]

"Always"? That's a pretty long time.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/seatpost-sizes.html

I own 15 theoretically buildable/rideable steel framesets (3 Follis, 2 Raleigh, 2 VooDoo, 1 each Bertin, Bianchi, Lambert, Mercier, Peugeot, Schwinn, Trek, a no-name frame that I suspect to be Tim Neenan, a Santa Cruz builder who went on to design the Sequoia at Specialized). The age range is 1950-1999; the tubing includes house brands (Peugeot, Mercier), Reynolds 531, Columbus SL, Tange (the VooDoos), Vitus, Durifort, Accles & Pollock and Trusty.

The seatpost diameters range from 25.4-27.2. While the largest pool is at 27.2 (1988 Bianchi Superleggera, 1974 Schwinn Paramount, the Neenan, 1999 VooDoo Hoodoo), there's a pool at 26.8 that's nearly as large (Lambert, 1969 Raleigh Competition, 1995 VooDoo Hoodoo). The two French gaspipey bikes from Peugeot and Mercier are both 25.4; the Peugeot is a thickwall 50s 650B townie frame, while the Bike Boom Mercier has a sleeve for a cheapy steel seatpin that I haven't tried to extract, so I don't know what the real seatpost size is.

In general, my older French frames are either gaspipe with 25.4, metric Reynolds 531 at 26.4, or non-Reynolds name brand tubing with 26.0-26.2. In Imperial tubing, DB Reynolds/Columbus/Tange is 27.0-27.4; straight tube Reynolds is 26.4-26.8.

Even then, it depends on the build environment. Did the frames come off a production line, or were they made by individual craftspeople? How much time did they have available? Better-quality frames made by skilled builders out of better-quality tubing usually have larger diameter seatposts, because the frames use stronger tubing which can have correspondingly thinner walls, so there's a wider diameter for a setapost. If the builder has more time, they can ream the seat tube out to fit a larger seatpost (Waterford does this as a general practice, which is why their standard seatpost for 531 frames is 27.4). But on a production line (Schwinn, Raleigh, Peugeot, Gitane etc) where the principle was to get the bike down the line, the seatpost-install guy might try to fit the theoretical "ideal" seatpost (say 27.2, for Imperial Reynolds 531 DB), find that it doesn't fit (maybe due to distortion in the seat cluster by the heat of the brazing, or maybe the torch guy accidentally flipped the seat tube upside down and the thick part is at the seat cluster instead of the BB shell), and so they stick a 27.0 seatpost in, quick and dirty. Get the product down the line! That's my suspicion as to why my 1984 Trek 720 (Imperial Reynolds 531c DB) has a 27.0, instead of the 27.2 post in the specs.

So, the size of the seatpost is the size that fits the frame, unless somebody chooses to do something special to the frame. Probably the biggest reason that the industry treats 27.2 as a de facto standard now is because of several decades of oversize tubing aluminum frames, where a 27.2 seatpost will fit into tubing that's already got thick walls.

Peter Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Drw]

Ill add my name to the list of being disappointed by 28.6. I had a hunqapillar from before the switch that was 27.2, sold it and bought a new waterford atlantis a couple years ago. I was pretty bummed that the seatpost had been shrunk on what, for me, was almost a custom bike (also why a supposedly less heavy duty bike needed a more heavy duty seat tube). i suppose for a lot of people, theyll get the kalloy post and never know/care/change it, but i do wish i was told.  i suppose i should stock a couple extras, since it seems like nitto barely makes them now and while kalloy does, who knows how long that will last. 

[Hugh Smitham]

Laing,

Got it. I figured it was a minimal amount to hone off and you layed out your logic for moving forward, which is sound. Saving $1200 is significant, thanks for the explanation.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 10:37 AM lconley <lco...@brph.com> wrote:

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[Hugh Smitham]

Good ideas if I run into the same issue. I haven't had a seat post slip on any of my Rivendell's but I have heard other's mention it, now my old Italian race bike is a different story.

That Promax post is a decent option but I like the extra 5mm of set back the s83 has. Alex Cycles has a s83 in Black with I'm considering since my next build is orange and I'm going with more black.

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[Hugh Smitham]

On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 11:20 AM Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is the previous thread about the 26.8 seatpost size.

https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/2ivUFNnqt-I/m/_wGi3ofDBwAJ

To Hugh and anyone else taking issue with the post size, by all means contact Grant @Riv. We can ask why 'till the comes come home here but not asking Grant/the designer is overlooking the obvious. Sure "they" @Riv may read this but to ask and complain without directing it to the source of the question is fruitless. Speculation speculates and that's all it does. 

Pretty much said earlier that perhaps I would ask the man himself. I'd say the spirit of my post was, dang limited choices and did anyone know why the diameter changed? As I see it this forum is to ask questions and to some extent speculate. I personally don't see it as a problem, unless of course it becomes a problem with wild conspiratorial chatter.   

I'm no fan of 26.8 either as I have some new 27.2 black Salsa Shafts awaiting frames. Those are by far the best post I've used, including the 2-bolt Nitto. I don't mind some black parts myself as they are so easy clean and they never corrode.

Agree with the two bolt design and depending on the build black is fine. My current Atlantis leans towards silver but I relented with some black bits out of economic necessity. The next build will lean towards black so no bias either way.

I've done a deep dive into 26.8 posts worldwide and while yes you can find some besides Nitto, the choices are meager. Then again even in 27.2 the choice isn't great as it seems on the surface. Many if not most of the lower cost posts are various rebranded Kalloys. Myself I wouldn't use one, mostly due to their shallow bolt design and some with a small clamp area.  If you're good at searching things online you'll find a few others but most are black, if that matters to you, and few if any have a full 23-25mm setback. So I ended right back to getting a Nitto S-83. The price is outrageous for a post if you really think about it...... but then again .... the egomaniaclal "I'm so offended....." doesn't discriminate as to what the offence may appear to be as long as it's fed. The only way to "win" that game is to not play at all and be on your very merry way.

Thank you for validating my point, just meager pickings to begin with and most are unacceptable for my preference. I'm not too bad at searching the internet but I'm no Steven Hawking level genius searching for seat posts. Getting offended?? Over limited choices? I guess some might be so egomaniacal but most are probably just a bit frustrated and a bit curious. I'll leave it at that. 

I'm not opposed to shelling out $120 or $130 for a well made post. Heck I have a Paul Handsome post on a bike ~$200 but that was 27.2 and there by my accounts more choices.

The best looking 26.8 post that does have some setback is a Miche Supertype. Retroregression sells them in various colors but the silver has been out of stock since last year. They have gold and blue and red though ..... I would've gotten a gold one but decided to get a Nitto instead.

Thanks for the suggestion, the Miche Supertype isn't that considered a track bike post? I honestly don't know what difference that would be? The look isn't my favorite. I wish this post came in 26.8

https://www.sim.works/collections/featured/products/froggy-seatpost?variant=35858115461286 

  ~Hugh

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[Garth]

Hugh, The Miche is just a regular road post that happens to have a distinct appearance that can appeal, or repel, a broad audience. The few posts labelled for track riding usually have the NJS certification. 44mm width rails are the norm for regular use, while track posts can be either 44 or 30mm. What's funny is that right now Europe is still a good source for bike parts. Many of the shops for example sell the  350x26.8 Ritchey classic 2-bolt seatpost in black, whereas it's not in the US. If I wanted a black post I'd surely consider one of those as it has a proper length clamp for the rails, 25mm setback, and decent bolts.

Seatpost sizes have always been all over the place though. My '83 Stumpjumper took a 26.4 or 26.6, I can't recall exactly. Posts came in .2mm increments from the likes of even Shimano. It really comes down to the builders choice of seat tube brand and spec. All my road racing steel frames took a 27.2 post, so I had Campy posts for those. But those frames all used a similar spec tubing that was used at the time. It was no "standard" , it was just what was chosen and copied. The bottom line is no one is forcing me or anyone to do business with Rivendell or any other mfr. The specs of stock Riv frames are usually listed in plain sight, if not it's up to the buyer to ask and not assume anything. If I order a custom frame I ask and confirm every last detail pertinent to fitting parts. Never assume anything ! There's a whole lot of things that Riv likes/promotes/claims that I either don't agree with or find not to be the case at all. None of that is going to stop me from doing business with them in the commonalities we do share, even if but one single thing. It's the same way with this group, friends and family or anyone else. Live and let Live, thriving on It's Infinite variety.

[Nick Payne]

I have a couple of older Rivendell frames (a Romulus and a Bleriot) that both take 27.2 seatposts. I was a bit surprised, when I bought an Appaloosa frame, that it came with a 26.8 seatpost. As the seatpost was a slightly loose fit in the frame, and I don't like those single bolt Kalloy seatposts anyway, I searched around in my parts box of seatposts, and found an old 27.0 Suntour Superbe Pro seatpost. A few minutes with an expanding reamer in the seat tube, and the Suntour post was a perfect fit.

Nick

[lconley]

Oops, slipped a decimal point there. Honed less than 0.1 mm.

Another data point and a super comfortable out-of-production Brooks Saddle. My Reynolds 531 Pashley Guv'nor is 27.0. Right now I am using a straight 27.0 aluminum seat pin because I am using a double rail Brooks B-73 with the Brooks seat clamp (I do have another Nitto lugged seatpost, a Breezer adapter and the hone sitting around...). Note the seat post mounted 3 speed shifter. 

Laing

[Eric Marth]

Dang, look at that Brooks!

[Paul Brodek]

IME back in the day 27.2mm was more common on higher-end frames than 26.8mm, while 26.8mm was more common on mid-level frames. And 26.8mm was rarely seen on top-level frames. But my back in the day selling new bikes started in 1980, with pre-1980 experience being most repair/service. Maybe Saturday Mark goes back further.

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA   

[Paul Brodek]

I've resorted to carbon paste on a couple of frames, and it definitely solves the slippage problem for me. It also, however, scratches the heck out of the inserted section of the seatposts IME.

I have one seatpost that's been rolled/machined, which also solved the slippage problem. Can't remember where I got it, though, so I don't know for sure who did the work. However, the cross-hatch looks similar to the pattern produced by the wonderful Stein tool, which ain't cheap but looks very groovy (that was an unintentional joke, btw):

https://steintool.com/portfolio-items/knurling-tool/

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA

[David Hallerman]

My personal 26.8mm seatpost datapoints have mainly been with relatively high-end bikes such as an early-90s Slim Chance with one of those skinny old top tubes; a fillet-brazed Ritchey road bike likely made by the man himself in the 1990s (sorry I sold that one); and my wife’s turn-of-the-century Indy Fab Crown Jewel.

Now 27.4mm seatposts, like Waterford used to make, were the devil incarnate to find. I only remember American Classic for that size.

Dave, who when he sees a car with a 26.2 sticker on the rear tends to think “Now that’s a rare seatpost size”

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[Peter Adler]

Is it? I've got two bikes with that seatpost size (maybe 3, once I get the seatpost clamp rounded out). And I don't even own an old Cinelli with fastback stays, which famously use 26.2.

Peter "statements from owners of multiple French bikes should be treated as anecdotes, not as dispositive evidence" Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[David Person]

In the latest email from Will "See you in Philly" he includes a link to a YouTube video of a visit by Blue Lug to the Nitto factory.  Interesting video should the process for making many of their items.  At15:40 into to video, Grant is called out by name for switching to 26.8mm seat posts and how they wished he would go back to 27.2mm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYIV6O6tOvY

[David Person]

Oh yeah, be sure to turn on Closed Caption in order to get english subtitles.

[lconley]

At least Rivendell started carrying the 26.8 IRD long setback seatpost.

Laing

[Hugh Smitham]

David,

I watched both videos and yes noticed the Grant Peterson comment. Really fun behind the scenes video, not just us:)  I especially liked the president (I assume) talking about handle bar trends and curious origin story's of particular products. I thought his discussion on titanium was particularly interesting as well.

I purchased a nos Suntour pro xc 26.8 post from eBay apparently a list member.

Hugh n LA

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[David Person]

Do you have the link to the 2nd video?

[Hugh Smitham]

David,

I believe this is it.

https://youtu.be/6lmLbScZruQ

Hugh n LA

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[David Person]

Looks like it is.  Thanks.

[David Person]

I should have said "Arigatōgozaimashita"

[Hugh Smitham]

🙏

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[aeroperf]

This thread made me get out the digital calipers and go check things.
After a bunch of re-measurements, I guess I just have to accept that I have weird seatpost sizes.

2014 Sam Hillborne = 27.2
1982 Team Fuji = 27.2
2020 Soma Saga tourer = 27.6
2002 KTM tourer = 27.6
2001 Sundance Top City German shopping bike = 29.2 (!)