Are Paul brakes worth the money?

[Bill Fulford]

I was recently gifted $500 to Rivendell. My plan was to upgrade my 2007 Atlantis with Paul brakes and levers. I placed the order only to read later that the brakes are sold per wheel. That’s  more than I wanted to spend. So before I call Rivendell tomorrow morning to cancel I’m wondering how folks feel about these brakes? I would be ordering the linear pull brake with love levers. Are they worth it?

[Bill Lindsay]

There is no objective answer to that question.  For lots of people, the answer is unequivocally yes.  For many others, the answer is no.  

Many who love them love the adjust-ability.  Many who dislike them call them "fiddly", since they are so adjustable, one has to be a pretty good wrench to dial them in.  Even though I say that one has to be a pretty good wrench, I bet a dollar somebody will respond "I'm not a good wrench and I was able to set up my Paul brakes perfectly".  

Lots of people are delighted to pay a premium for something MUSA, and/or made in California.  Lots of people are willing to pay a premium out of gratitude to the company for the vast amount of free entertainment they put out on Instagram.  

It already sounds like you don't want to pay $600 for brakes, so for you as an individual, they probably are not "worth it".  Similarly a $1200 Joe Bell paint job probably wouldn't be "worth it".  The moment you decide you want to buy them, then they are worth it.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Joe Bernard]

"Worth it" is of course subjective but I have these brakes on my Rivendell Custom and they're worth it to me. The feel and power is notably superior to the Shimano v-brakes I started with, the qr function on the arms is miles better, the adjusting springs are very easy to fiddle with, the very slim clamp on the levers stays out of the way of hands and shifters, I love the slightly industrial look (some folks aren't into it), and they're made 95 miles from where I'm typing right now. Yes it's a chunk of cash but they're on a very nice bike I ride almost every day. I'm glad I did it. 

Joe Bernard 

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 10:52:35 AM UTC-7 Bill Fulford wrote:

[Richard Rose]

I cannot speak to the brakes. But the levers are SO GOOD! Having never had any kind of issue with my Shimano linear pull brakes I feel like it’s crazy money for the Paul’s, but based on the levers I may be wrong.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 25, 2022, at 1:52 PM, Bill Fulford <bill.fu...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was recently gifted $500 to Rivendell. My plan was to upgrade my 2007 Atlantis with Paul brakes and levers. I placed the order only to read later that the brakes are sold per wheel. That’s  more than I wanted to spend. So before I call Rivendell tomorrow morning to cancel I’m wondering how folks feel about these brakes? I would be ordering the linear pull brake with love levers. Are they worth it?

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[lconley]

Years ago I used to buy what some people considered overpriced VW parts from Gene Berg. His motto was "Buy the best and cry once". I basically subscribe to that point of view, but I more or less have the money to do it. That is why I buy so many Rivendells. Made in USA is a plus with me. I generally do not like the look of the non-disc Paul brakes, but I do have a quite a few parts from Paul including hubs, Klamper disc brakes, V-brakes, cantilever brakes, moon units, brake levers, thumbies, and several sets of skewers. The quality is undeniable. The brake levers are magnificent and even good looking. I have the V-brakes on the Hubbuhubbuh and the cantilevers on the Bombadil touring bike, basically the two heaviest bikes that I own. Bulletproof braking has is own beauty and I think that they are worth it. The discs are on my VO Neutrino. If you want new, high quality, internal cam skewers, Paul is basically the only game in town.

If you like them and can afford it, I say buy the Paul components. They are the type of components that you remove from a bike when you sell it to use on your next build.

Laing

[J J]

Echoing Bill and Joe, it depends on which criteria are important in your value calculation for a particular set of circumstances. 

I went to great lengths to find (out of production but soon to be back in production) Paul brakes for one of our bikes. It felt appropriate and justifiable, even “necessary”. And they’re great. No regrets. 

In contrast, I was going to install a new set of Paul cantis on another bike but instead, I sold them, telling myself that my relatively cheap Shimano cantis were just fine, and that the Pauls weren’t worth it. So I sold the Paul cantis at a slight loss to lighten my parts hoard. It’s really subjective. 

I chuckle at myself when I consider that I have no problem paying serious money for Rivendell frames (they’re worth it!) yet I sometimes balk heavily at the cost of components. After all, why should I spend, for example, $xxx on a fancy rear derailer when I can buy a $25 Altus that works “98 to 100 percent” as well as the fancier ones, according to Grant? Well, I got a fancy RD for the same bike on which I retained the cheaper brakes. 

Ultimately I don’t have a consistent algorithm or a set decision tree to figure these choices out. The Pauls were more than worth it for one Riv, but for another Riv they didn’t seem to be. Kinda whacky of me, and amusing. 

[Eric Marth]

Only speaking for myself, here: I love my Paul cantis and moto lites, have them currently installed on two Rivs, had them on another bike and, as Laing mentioned, pulled them off before I sold it. 

I love that there is a small machine shop in Northern California making weird bike parts and I am happy to support them. They are certainly expensive. A lot of people will tell you they're downright ugly, I won't go that far. I do like the look of the cantis and the "canti lever" brake levers. Dig their barrel adjusters, too. 

I believe you can purchase replacement parts for all of their brakes, springs, spring adjusters, pivots, o-rings, etc. 

In the past I've sold a set of their thumb shifter mounts and one set of touring cantilevers and while I don't have an immediate need or use for those I do regret it. 

For more about Paul Comp check out their YouTube channel, lots of vids about their shop, installation how-to videos and other funky stuff! 

This video is about the coolant recycling system that Paul installed in the shop which I found quite interesting. 

[Ryan M.]

I really do think they are worth the money and when/if you ever decide to sell them you can recoup a lot of the cost back. 

I've had the fortunate experience of using most of the current Paul brakes at one time or another and I do think they all work really well. They work even better when you pair them with a set of Paul levers too. I think the combination really makes the system work quite well and the levers are just strong and smooth. I'm a huge fan of the moto lites, Klampers, and the canti brakes, either the touring or retro models. It does take a little time to set up those cantis, but once dialed in they are great. 

Worth it for you...well, that depends on the money. A set of Shimano xt v brakes and levers just isn't that much money and they will work fine. Pauls are just better and IMHO, easier to setup...and the motolites have an industry best disconnection system. 

[Joe Bernard]

Tire clearance is a thing, too, if you're looking at v-brakes. My Motolites are quite tall and clear a 650B x 47 "gravel" tire with room left for fenders. 

[J.C. Bryant]

As someone who likes to fiddle, I find the adjustability (read: fiddliness) enjoyable. I like supporting small businesses, especially in this industry and despite the bling factor, I do think Paul Components has some great ideas. Designing all their brakes to run the same V-brake pads is nice, as I'd only have to stock one type of pad for all my bikes. No return springs in levers = a simpler mechanism, one less thing to break down, and one fewer variable in adjusting brake feel or "snappiness". Once you get a hang of their coil spring setup, you're good to go. Cool colors are fun. I could also add readily-available replacement parts/fully-serviceable components as another plus, but a full "rebuild kit" for one brake is often times more expensive than a full set of new off-the-shelf V brakes or Cantis, but it's at least good to know you'll always be able to repair them, even if it costs a bit. I've got no doubt that my Paul brakes will surely outlast me, barring availability of replacement bits here and there.

This part is more aimed at the constantly-fiddling tinkerers like myself, but there's also resale-factor. You can get nearly a 100% return on your investment on the secondhand market, especially if you pick them up used. You can always pick up boutique parts to try them out and hock them for little-to-no-loss if they're not quite what you're looking for. That doesn't matter to everyone, but it's a plus for me.

The brakes and levers are great. The thumbies are cool if that's your cup of tea. Never tried the seatposts or stems, but I am happy with regular forged posts and quill stems and I usually look to Nitto for that sort of thing. At the end of the day, boutique components are only "worth it" if you like them and feel good about your purchase. Cheaper brakes will stop your bike just fine, just like a cheaper bike will still get you from point A to point B, but many folks willing to shell out for a Riv also don't mind paying the "Paul tax" to support a small brand and get a cool, shiny piece of gear to add to their bike. I say give it a go and if you ultimately can't cope with the expense, there's surely someone here who will happily take them off your hands.

-J.C.

[velomann]

They are absolutely worth the money in terms of quality, function, and supporting a great company. I own and use every type of brake Paul makes, and lots of others and the Motolites combined with the Paul levers are absolutely the best rim brakes I have ever used. And yes I disagree that they are difficult to set up, especially compared to many older canti brakes out there. The two-nut system all Paul brakes use is (to my mind) intuitive and once you get it, all Paul rim brakes set up basically the same way. 

And the Motolites are one of the only rim brakes that allows you to (within reason) swap wheel sizes. I can run 700c wheels on my 650b Sam Hillborne no problem (except removing the fenders.)

I do recommend purchasing the Paul Bottle Opener tool https://www.paulcomp.com/shop/service-parts/tools/bottle-opener/

Yes you can adjust Paul brake tension with a 15mm box wrench or cone wrench, but the angle and width that matches the Paul brake nut is really helpful and it's a nice tool to keep in you on-bike kit.

Mike M

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 10:52:35 AM UTC-7 Bill Fulford wrote:

[Minh]

you're responses are going to be a little skewed by asking on this group, as most of us have decided that 'worth it' are based on other things beside $$ value.   from a functional standpoint you can get other brakes that are more affordable and function nearly the same.   if you want to split the difference consider forgoing the brakes and treating yourself to the levers, they will bring you a little bit of joy everytime you touch them and remind you about the person that gave you the gift.  

there's no wrong decision here, its really personal so do what feels right to you regardless of what others may say, welcome and enjoy!

[Joe Bernard]

Yes he should buy what he wants, my answer is my experience and how I feel about it. It's also based on the budget I was working with a couple years ago, I'm not currently operating with Paul money! 🤑

[Garth]

Bill, Since you asked, no , they're not worth it. I could give you my reasons, but they would be no less a rationalization of why I don't buy or use them as those that do. So you're right back to where you are, with a pending order for what you thought was for a complete set but only half. The guys @Riv will understand that.

[Bill Fulford]

Thanks for all of your thoughtful responses. I certainly believe that Paul brakes are excellent and worth the price. I guess that I was surprised that the price wasn’t for a full brake set. But that is me being out of touch with high quality components. Most likely I’m going to cancel the order and save Paul brakes for my dream bike, whatever that may be. Thank you for your responses.

[Jay Lonner]

I like Paul brakes for all the reasons stated above. “Worth” is hard to pin down, but I like the Gene Berg quote from upthread. (OT: it’s been a while since I’ve heard that name!) I’ve tried different types and prefer the Motolites over the cantilever versions. Once the Racers are back in production I’ll be giving those a try as well, as an upgrade for my wife’s Cheviot.

Bill (or anybody else, really) I’ve got two sets of gently used Paul cantilevers for sale, one set of of Neo-Retros and one set of Tourings, along with one set of Canti levers. All of it is in anodized silver. I’d be happy to pass this stuff along for half off retail, with shipping on me.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

Sent from my Atari 400

On Sep 25, 2022, at 5:29 PM, Bill Fulford <bill.fu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for all of your thoughtful responses. I certainly believe that Paul brakes are excellent and worth the price. I guess that I was surprised that the price wasn’t for a full brake set. But that is me being out of touch with high quality components. Most likely I’m going to cancel the order and save Paul brakes for my dream bike, whatever that may be. Thank you for your responses.

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 8:10:24 PM UTC-4 Garth wrote:

Bill, Since you asked, no , they're not worth it. I could give you my reasons, but they would be no less a rationalization of why I don't buy or use them as those that do. So you're right back to where you are, with a pending order for what you thought was for a complete set but only half. The guys @Riv will understand that.

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[rlti...@gmail.com]

I have never used any of Paul’s brakes surprisingly. It’s surprising because I have no problem spending money on things that are better/more advanced than what I need. 

For me, I think (maybe wrongly) that I can get 90% of the braking that Paul’s would provide at a fraction of the cost by using other brakes. I have Avid linear pull brakes on my Hubbuhubbuh and have no problem stopping quickly when needed.  

The aesthetics are also a factor. The industrial look of most of Paul’s brakes looks out of place on more traditional bikes to me.

I think one day I’lll buy a set of Klampers to test them out. I don’t think they will be a revelation compared to the TRP Spykes they would replace on the bike I have in mind but they will definitely look better.

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 25, 2022, at 10:52 AM, Bill Fulford <bill.fu...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was recently gifted $500 to Rivendell. My plan was to upgrade my 2007 Atlantis with Paul brakes and levers. I placed the order only to read later that the brakes are sold per wheel. That’s  more than I wanted to spend. So before I call Rivendell tomorrow morning to cancel I’m wondering how folks feel about these brakes? I would be ordering the linear pull brake with love levers. Are they worth it?

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[Kim Hetzel]

In my opinion, Paul componentry is like the new Phil Wood of the 20th century. When Phil Wood came out with their hubs in the early '70's, it was THE thing to admire and buy.

 

I personally am unable to purchase Paul componentry. They are very much beyond my budget. I like Dia-Compe componentry a lot. They are good quality company that is been around for decades.

Waiting on a pair of Dia-Compe SS-6 silver brakes levers and Dia-Compe silver 980 cantilever breads in the mail to upgrade on my Clem Smith Jr. "L".

Kim Hetzel

Yelm, WA.

[Joe Bernard]

The Phil cache from the '70s is an excellent analogy to how Paul lands for me: I was fascinated by Paul parts - especially the rear derailleur - during the CNC mountain bike era in the '90s (and still have my BikePro catalogue to show for it). Later as an older dude I was finally able to afford it and here we are. Are Paul parts necessary? No. Does everyone love their CNC look? Also no. I love em and I got em! 

[Patrick Moore]

As others have said, "worth it" depends on the user as much as the thing itself. Even the question, "Is it worth it?" means different things at different times to different people, all the way from "should I spend $$$ on this or spend it on Christmas presents?" to "do Paul cantilevers retard my wheel at least x% more than Shimano or whatever cantilvers, and is the x% margin worth the added price given my needs and budget?"

Paul cantis are worth it to me for the 2nd Chauncey because they stop well (enough) but don't squeal or -- in the front with the mile-long head and steerer tubes -- chatter that I got with Tektros.

Klampers might be worth (to me) the premium over Hy/Rds on the first Matthews if they give similar braking power and modulation without hydraulic fluid.

I have 1 bike where I'll spend $100s more on a single part just because it's, frankly, a vanity bike and I want to have the prettiest and best on it, I define "pretty." On my other bikes, my calculations are more, but hardly entirely, practical.

In that connection: How do Klampers compare in performance to Hy/Rds? (I see that the Klampers are about twice the cost of the Hy Rds.)

Speaking of worth, and mixing threads: the proposed new reverse pull Rivendell rear derailleur certainly isn't "worth it" to me for any practical benefit, but I would be tempted to buy one for $150 just because it looks so interesting. Not nearly as pretty as a 7410 or 740n RD, but nice looking and interesting!

On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 11:52 AM Bill Fulford <bill.fu...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was recently gifted $500 to Rivendell. My plan was to upgrade my 2007 Atlantis with Paul brakes and levers. I placed the order only to read later that the brakes are sold per wheel. That’s  more than I wanted to spend. So before I call Rivendell tomorrow morning to cancel I’m wondering how folks feel about these brakes? I would be ordering the linear pull brake with love levers. Are they worth it?

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-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Dan Leahul]

I'm going on my ninth year of owning my Paul Racers. I have no doubts that they'll last me my cycling lifetime. They are clever, overbuilt, beautiful brakes. Using these in their long reach context, they offer many times over more braking power and braking feel than anything else out there (r559, Dia Compe, etc). A few hundred dollars for decades of blissful braking doesn't seem like that bad of a deal, unless you're working with a extreme budget.

Seems odd to have to convince a Rivendell owner the value of Paul Components! The two companies seem very similar in terms of offerings and ethos.

I say buy them and never look back.

Dan in Canada 🇨🇦

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[Scott Luly]

Frankly, this thread is a great discussion full of sound points...educational

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/2C2EBD68-3696-4F17-8A83-D73E9BF85649%40gmail.com

.

[James Valiensi]

Hi,

I’ve had many Paul Comp brakes. His brake levers are the best out there. Worth every penny and will last forever. 

I like his Motolite brakes and they are only thing better than Shimano V-brakes.

I’ve used the Racer brakes will good success, but they are not really improvement over normal caliper brakes. 

I don’t like any type of cantilever brakes, but the quality is there.

They cost a bunch of money if you buy them new. But in return you’ll have reliable brakes that will last as long as the bike frame will. I have his brakes over 15 years and they still work like new.

On Sep 25, 2022, at 10:52 AM, Bill Fulford <bill.fu...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was recently gifted $500 to Rivendell. My plan was to upgrade my 2007 Atlantis with Paul brakes and levers. I placed the order only to read later that the brakes are sold per wheel. That’s  more than I wanted to spend. So before I call Rivendell tomorrow morning to cancel I’m wondering how folks feel about these brakes? I would be ordering the linear pull brake with love levers. Are they worth it?

[Joe Mullins]

The Paul Mini Motos on my Sam feel like disc brakes without the modulation. They stop almost too good. I had to loosen the cables to the point where the levers almost bottoms out so I don’t lock the wheels up so easily when riding on dirt. The Deore XT V-brakes on my Rosco feel like mush compared to them. I’m sure the Kool Stop pads on the Paul’s play a part. The Mini-Motos definitely feel more solid though. 

On Sep 25, 2022, at 9:18 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

The Phil cache from the '70s is an excellent analogy to how Paul lands for me: I was fascinated by Paul parts - especially the rear derailleur - during the CNC mountain bike era in the '90s (and still have my BikePro catalogue to show for it). Later as an older dude I was finally able to afford it and here we are. Are Paul parts necessary? No. Does everyone love their CNC look? Also no. I love em and I got em! 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/2bef2110-cd3c-40b9-853b-da44cbcebc74n%40googlegroups.com.

[Michael Moore, Jr.]

For me Paul's breaks made sense on my Rivendell Bleriot and Kona Explosif. For these reasons. Your reasons may vary. Once I get a bike the way I like it I leave it alone for years, so it's basically a one time expense for something like brakes and levers (I think I have 17 years on the Explosif and 16 on the Bleriot, but I could be off by a year or two). I like supporting small California businesses when I can as I live in a small rural California community. Jobs matter. They look great, and function well. I could afford them. Could I have gone with a cheaper alternative and been happy? Of course, but I also like a little bling on the bike that only bike people understand.

--

Michael Moore, Jr.
Humboldt County

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[ascpgh]

They are to me but that asks me to explore non-linear scalars to defend. Spreadsheets might produce answers that differ from mine, I tend to value the non-linear observations about things also.

I like bike things, I enjoy riding them, the interactions with and company of others who do so as well. I had the opportunity to meet and talk to Paul Price at the Philly Bike Expo a few years ago. I complimented him on the center mount Racers I bought for my Rambouillet and he asked if I had a picture on my phone. Not that Shimano or (fill in a component or brake manufacturer of your choice) don't care about you, but back in my shop days I seldom had the opportunity to speak to the person behind a product like Paul (or Grant Peterson) at trade show. 

My sample is this set of center mount Racers I put on my Rambouillet to replace the groupless Shimano calipers that were the only option when I bought the Ram as a full bike from Rivendell. My years of riding this bike brought to focus several issues with the original brakes that the Paul Racers more than adequately resolved. Since then I've had comments from riders about the bike and the Racer brakes. I gained fender clearance, tire clearance and brake performance.  

"Cool Shimano dual pivot calipers!" 

            -No one.

What I like about bikes, bike parts, bike people and my experience riding supports my favorable impression of Paul Component Engineering brake options. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 1:52:35 PM UTC-4 Bill Fulford wrote:

[greenteadrinkers]

IMO Paul brake levers are 100% worth the cost. On a bike, the brake lever is a high human touchpoint. For me the user experience with the PL is so high, no matter the build, if I can afford it, I would always spec PL's.

Scott

[Russell Duncan]

I agree with Bill Lindsay, Paul Components are worth it. Yes they're pricey but they work, fiddley yes, but in my experience they're not as fiddley as say old MAFAC products. I combined my preference for Campagnolo brifters  with Paul's MiniMoto calipers on my Surly Cross x Check, and with some fiddling, i.e. learning how MiniMotos work, I now can say they they work well together.  I agree whole heartedly with spending your money on products MUSA not from where rice is the cheapest. I gave up a few of those pricey beers and single malt whiskeys that we drink in support of not buying from some company having stuff built over seas, for easy profits. If, however, you're going to go that route, please make sure its not with a country that disrespects its people and who we're bound to get into a shooting match with. 

Russell Duncan

Saratoga, WY-the-hell-oming

[John Phillips]

I have used Paul Racers, Touring & Neo-Retro Cantilevers and Moto-lites. I like them all. I found them to be easy to set up & easy to adjust, and that's without much experience at all, just watched some Youtube videos and read the information & advice given & shared here by much more experienced and wizened mechanics.

I love the look of Paul components and have never regretted buying any of their brakes, brake levers, skewers or stems.

Just my $0.02,

John

[Kim Hetzel]

I remember very clearly back in the 70's before the craze of wanting a touring bicycle to travel across the United States,  owning a racing bike with full Campagnolo Nuevo Record componetry on it was a huge fade.

When I bought my 1973 Cilo Sprintx bicycle, it had very thing Campagnolo Nuevo Record on it, except for the brakes, of which were Weimann 610 centerpulls and levers. I wanted a pair of those Campy sidepulls. However, they were priced at $125.00 +.  They were out of my price range. Over time, it got put on the back burner.  Until, one day, I walked into this particular bicycle shop to buy something for my bicycle. I looked down in the showcase. There was a NEW full set of Campagnolo Nuevo Record breaks and levers in the factory box gleaming up a me with a price tag of $75.00 ! ! !  I could not walk out of there without buying them. I was so happy, very happy.

I assembled them onto my Cilo, of which I turned into a sports touring bike. Now, I was in style. Confidence reigned through my head and body riding downhill with some mighty fine sidepull brakes/levers in the day.  I still have them to this today with the Scott Mathauser pad inserts. Beautiful shiny and silver brakes.

Kim Hetzel

Yelm, WA.

[Joe Bernard]

This is the tool I use for adjusting Paul springs, I'm quite spoiled by how easy it is to loosen the hex bolt with one hand and move the spring with the 15mm end of this tool with the other. Park SS-15, also good for pedals and axle bolts for singlespeed/IGH. And it's a bottle opener. And I'm just now noticing it has a lip on the end for..opening paint cans? 🤷 Good stuff! 

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 10:33:32 AM UTC-7 John Phillips wrote:

[ascpgh]

Tire lever they say. 

That's a pretty cool short and flat 15mm open end/socket wrench. I have the SunTour version thin wall 14-15mm crank bolt wrench.

For the two hand Pail Racer return spring adjustments I use a a hex key and my 15mm double end VAR cone wrench .They have a big round profile around their jaw opening and don't get tangled up in bike stuff or your hands while using. Funny how we all develop our ways based on appropriate but different tools. 

Andy Cheatham 

Pittsburgh

[Huston]

I was recently reminded of this thread when completing an overhaul of my Paul touring cantis.  After years of four-season commuting, the arms and spring adjuster nuts still look great; however, the springs (corrosion) and one o-ring (split) needed to be replaced.  Plus, it was time for some fresh straddle cables.  All of these tiny bits were readily available, both directly from Paul and from retailers.  Furthermore, upon submission of a question via the Paul website, I received a prompt response from the man himself.  IMO, these are just a couple of more reasons why these brakes are indeed "worth the money."

Huston

Lexington, KY

[Philip Williamson]

I just read through the thread with interest - I didn't realize it was from Sept 2022 until the last post!

I've used Paul cantis, a Neo-retro /Touring setup, and Minimotos. Minimotos were the only brake that worked on two bikes to eliminate judder. Absolutely worth it for that alone. I sold one pair when I parted out the Pinarello cross bike, and the other set will probably stay on the Frances forever. 

I've never used the Paul levers, but now I'd consider it if I ever build a flat-bar bike again. Paul drop bar levers would be AMAZING, in both long and short pull. 

I have Moon Units on the Quickbeam, since the special green anodizing looks good with the bike (it clashed with the Frances green). I mimicked the straddle height from the CX-50 stock setup, and they work great.  

I do have a set of NIB Klampers I considered building a bike around, but went with yet another canti-post bike (a Bruce Gordon, woot!). 

Philip 

Sonoma County, Calif (did it really just stop raining?) 

[Joe Bernard]

It really DID just stop raining, right after I used my trusty Motolites with Paul Levers on wet rims a few times. You're going to love those Klampers, I'm not much of a disc guy but they're amazing. Better that Motos? Nah, but just as good if you're building a disc bike. 

[Patrick Moore]

I use Paul cantis. I don't know if they're worth the premium over every other cantilever brake -- the IRDs on my 2010 Sam set up by Riv staff worked better than the Paul's on my 2020 Matthews and IMO looked as good; but I certainly didn't mind paying the premium to get decent braking, good looks, even more the easy adjustment, and above all the freedom from the squeal and chatter that I experienced with the Tektro 720s that they replaced on the 2020 Matthews, which has mile-long steerer and head tubes. I daresay I could have drilled a hole in the fork crown and mounted a housing stop there to stop the squeal and chatter, and I may eventually do that, but I don't regret paying for the Paul's, again for the other qualities listed. This Matthews is a "nice bike."

And Huston's experience with service and parts just adds yet another reason for the Paul's.

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[Patrick Moore]

Philip: Can you (or can anyone else for that matter) say how the Klampers perform compared to TRP Hy Rds or to full hydraulics? I was just talking to my brother about the Hy Rds and wondering if the Kampers would be as powerful and modulate as well without the hydraulic complication.

The Klampers have single-side pad actuation, right?

On Thu, Jan 5, 2023 at 3:36 PM Philip Williamson <philip.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

... I do have a set of NIB Klampers I considered building a bike around, but went with yet another canti-post bike (a Bruce Gordon, woot!). 

[Eric Marth]

Huston reminds me that while Paul sells replacement parts for all their breaks the o-ring prices are criminal. Criminal I say! They're $2/each from Paul. At my local hardware store, Earl's Tru Value, they're 10¢ each. 

A box of 100 #012 o-rings from McMaster-Carr is $3.26. That's 3¢ per ring (and maybe even where Paul's ordering 'em from). Now I have beef with Paul and Earl. 

Forgive me if I've ranted about this before. I understand they have to make it worth their while and if they're paying someone to find, pack and ship the o-rings they can't do it at 10¢ apiece. But check out your local hardware store for those 012 and 013 o-rings. 

[Joe Bernard]

Klampers are great, the couple hydraulic systems I've tried (stock on new bikes, I don't remember the brands) were marginally greater on the road but not worth the extra complication (bleeding) over the cable Pauls. Your results may vary on steep, rocky descents I don't ride. 

Joe Bernard 

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, good to know.

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[Eliot Balogh]

Patrick, can you use a Suntour power hanger ? I loved mine.

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[Will Boericke]

For me, Paul brakes are not worth the retail price.  Good V-brakes (the level above department store) are universally well-functioning.  Paul buys you the name on the brake arm and probably some more freedom from maintenance.  Now, I think it's important to point out that I've owned one set of mini-motos.  I found them finicky.  TRP mini-Vs were better.  Will I still probably buy a set of Paul's if they're a good used deal?  Probably.  Not going to spend $500 on them, though.

[Joe Bernard]

I would not agree that the only difference between most well-functioning v-brakes and Paul Motolites is the name. On my Riv Custom that started with Shimano DXR brakes the Pauls are notably nicer to modulate. Are they worth the money? That's a different question I answered for myself, they do work better. 

[J G]

The Paul Motolites do also have the best quick release mechanism of the bunch.

The Paul brake that stands out the most to me is the Racer and Racer M.  Even better in post mount.  That is the kind of brake you build a bike around.  

I run the gamut of Pauls and like them all just fine, but I am also ok with DXR, BB7s etc. when I want to keep costs in check.  Setup is the most important thing with brakes and good compassionless housing.

[Ryan]

I had Riv build my mixte with Racers with the post mounts brazed on to the seat stays...but I cheaped out and used the very nice (and reasonably priced) Dia-Compe SS6 levers, which are elegant, work well, and are an outlier example of those  things that look good and work well but aren't eye-wateringly expensive. 

Another high-quality low-cost thing I got from Riv in the early 2000's and wished I'd ordered several were those beautiful Suntour XC9000 front hubs for like...$20.00. Some of you long-time Riv fans may remember those hubs. I had a local wheelbuilder friend of mine lace it to an Araya RM20 26" front wheel for my X0-1 and had to settle for a Shimano 105 for the rear wheel - no XC9000 rear hub, unfortunately. Damn!

The rest of the bike was mostly equipped as appropriate for a custom Rivendell. It was ordered a couple of years before I retired and as a senior software developer , I was quite well-paid and felt I deserved it. Bikes , to me are worth splashing out on. A lot of the fun I had with my custom Rivs was curating the parts.

[Benjamin L. Kelley]

Paul brakes work as well as any others of similar style.

Are they worth the money? Depends on you I guess.

To me Paul brakes are works of art and absolutely worth the money.

Was having this exact convo at a group ride last week when someone pointed out my Steamroller to someone else and was talking about the brake setup.

My orange quickbeam has Paul Touring on the rear, Tektro on the front( will get replaced in time with Paul Nero-Retro. Paul Canti Levers. One moon unit and one Jubilee black Heart straddle cable carrier

My 2017 Surly Steamroller is setup with a single Racer on the front, and Canti Lever w/ Funky Monkey hanger and a Jubilee black Heart straddle cable carrier.

--ben in KC

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[esoterica etc]

> On Jan 5, 2023, at 21:38, J G <cjus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Setup is the most important thing with brakes and good compassionless housing.

This is true- the less sympathy your housing feels, the better it will be able to do its job.

~Mark
Raleigh, NC

[Patrick Moore]

Eliot: I did use one of these long, long ago, and looks ideal, elegant (= both not-bulky-looking and minimum-means-to-desired-end).

I see that one -- NIP -- sold for $8 with $5 shipping back in October. 

But I fear that the beefy threaded fender mount boss in the underside of the crown will interfere with this device; must take a look. And next, must learn if it's safe to drill holes in forward and rearward fore/aft crown walls; the fork was built for cantis and fenders, thus with no holes.

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[Russell Duncan]

In my opinion, Paul brakes are definitely worth it, and they’re MUSA.

I installed a pair of Mini Motos on my Surly Cross x Check with Campagnolo Ergo levers, which is the a great go most anywhere setup. The Mini Motos worked well enough with the Campy levers, but they worked perfectly with Travel Agents installed. I love how they function, with great modulation and no squeal. I’d recommend them to anyone wanting to use an Ergo system.

Russell Duncan

Leverett, MA USA

[Brian McDermott]

I've had the Racers, Mini-Motos, and the touring cantis. The Racers worked well, but I prefer a canti or V brake. The Mini-Motos are fantastic and provide excellent power and modulation, and the added bonus of working with road levers without a problem. 

Now for the touring cantis, I bought a set used on ebay, but when installing them on my Sam, I noticed I was missing a pivot. So, I installed one pair on the front, and a pair of Tektro TR720s on the rear while I waited for a new pivot. I ran this setup for many months, and I've gotta say, the difference between the Pauls and the Tektros was minimal. Of course, the Pauls were on the front so that is a factor, but...pound for pound, I think as far as cantis go, the Pauls aren't really worth it; aside from looks and maybe slightly improved modulation, being MUSA is the biggest selling point. 

[Jamie Kaplan]

Are Paul’s worth it?? Yes. But, maybe not. Depends. 

As Pam Murray reminded me, our bikes should be a source of joy and satisfaction. So if spending incrementally more dollars is a stresser, then maybe don’t go there. By contrast, we’ve all seen basic set ups on Riv’s site. We all know that they work splendidly. At the end of the day, our ‘curated’ bicycles are a balancing act between our personal choices and our constraints. We all have constraints. 

I own one ‘forever’ Clem L. Works for me b/c my range of riding needs is relatively narrow. I spent many pandemic months researching a bike of choice. The Riv Clem L checked all my boxes. I made sure I had the money set aside. I made certain to obtain spousal dispensation. Once I found it I pounced sight unseen. Yikes. I then had nine months from down payment to pick up to research and procure parts and components. I wanted to do it once and do it right. Today, I have zero regrets. Even my wife loves the bike and how it has expanded my universe. I love the look and ride of my Riv. For me it wasn’t my mid-life crisis European convertible, it’s was just…a bike. Enjoy the process and the outcome. Cause if we’re when we’re riding our Rivs life is inherently good. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 7, 2023, at 9:06 AM, Brian McDermott <brianmark...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've had the Racers, Mini-Motos, and the touring cantis. The Racers worked well, but I prefer a canti or V brake. The Mini-Motos are fantastic and provide excellent power and modulation, and the added bonus of working with road levers without a problem. 

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[Jay Riley]

"the extra complication (bleeding) over the cable Pauls" has sent me back to cables and calipers on 2 of my bikes.  Especially if I'm in hilly and mountainous terrain, especially especially when touring with moderate loads (35lbs) in that terrain, disc-brake pads wear out way faster than ol' fashioned brake pads.  Hydraulic discs are super easy to squeeze and modulate, and although my thumbs are already arthritic I can still stop just fine w'cable brakes.  

Jay

Jay Riley, mobile 603-498-5199

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[Jay Riley]

PS: I'll always keep hydro brakes on the dual-suspension mtn bike.  They're cool!  The braking assignment is short, severe braking loads, as opposed to braking loads on a road or touring bike.

Jay

Jay Riley, mobile 603-498-5199

[Eric Marth]

Paul brakes are worth it. 

If you buy, try and decide you don't like them you can sell them for close to what you paid!

[Bill Schairer]

I have a set of cantilevers and a set of center pulls, both purchased used off this list, I think.  What I really like about both sets is how easy it is to disconnect and re-connect the straddle cables making wheel removal and installation so much easier.  Even though I didn't pay full retail they were still quite pricey compared to what I had.  I don't regret my purchases at all.

Bill S

San Diego

[Bill Fulford]

I bought Paul brakes for my Atlantis and initially loved them. Now, however, they squawk like a stuck goose. I’ve cleaned the rims, sanded the pads but with no success. They were installed by a bike shop so I don’t think that’s the problem. It’s embarrassing to ride at times. I’m looking for suggestions to ease the noise. Thanks in advance. Bill

[Julian Westerhout]

Bill, 

Which brakes are they?  Which pads are you using? Are they properly slightly toed in? 

Photos would help in making a diagnosis -- but I doubt the squawking is due to the brakes themselves -- more likely to be pad type and/or setup. 

Julian Westerhout

Bloomington, IL 

[Ted W]

That noise is typical of a he salmon pads that ship on Paul brakes. salmon pads stop really well but I’ve had several pair on different bikes and different brake styles and after a bit they all started to make noise no matter how I adjusted them. I’ve also found that Paul Motolites in particular do not like having racks mounted to them. This made any existing brake noise multiples worse I assume due to the two sides being more rigid mounted together allowing for different resonance to occur and generate more noise. This was particularly apparent on my Gus I assume due to its unique front end geometry.

My opinion on the Paul Motolites is mixed. On the one hand, they’re beautiful and the quick release mechanism is nice compared to typical v-brakes with the noodle holding it all together. The adjustment mechanism is also a work of arm and does make adjusting for different when sizes a bit nicer. However, I’m not sure they’re worth the money purely on the basis of function. To me they’re like a designer handbag. They make a nice accessory when paired with other nice accessories and a good outfit they can be stunning. But at the end of the day, a $5 handbag holds stuff as well as a $300 handbag. My $30 Shimano Alivio v-brakes stop my Appaloosa just as well as the $300 Motolites on my Gus. But my Gus is my pretty show bike that I take out on the town on a Sunny Saturday to get things at the farmer’s market. My Appaloosa is my daily driver. I lock it up outside of stores and restaurants and ride it, rain or shine, to work 5 days a week. It’s still a nice bike but the parts on it are more utilitarian in nature. The frame is the flashiest piece of kit on the whole bike and I like it that way.

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[Bill Fulford]

The brakes are cantilever with salmon pads. I assume that the are properly mounted. The squawking began after about five months of riding. In the beginning there was no noise.

[Julian Westerhout]

Bill, 

Salmon Koolstop pads stop well, but can be noisy, especially if they hit the rim flat or slightly toed out. It is possible/probable that after 5 months the pads have worn enough to change the way they hit the rim, and need to be adjusted a bit to be slightly toe-in. 

Julia Westerhout

Bloomington, IL 

[Bill Schairer]

Bill, double check to make sure the mounting bolts haven't loosened.

Bill S

San Diego

[Kim H.]

I would enjoy hearing the feedback from those folks, who have used Yokozuna brake pads verses Salmon Koolstop pads. Are they any better ? or ?

Kim Hetzel.

[Will Boericke]

After some wear, brake pads need to be re-toed in, because they will wear flat to the rim surface.  I suspect that will solve your problems.

Will

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[Chris L]

I had the same issue and fixed it by going back to Deore V-brakes.  Haven't had a single issue with brake squeal since. 

On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 7:54:00 PM UTC-5 Bill Fulford wrote:

[James Valiensi]

Are Paul brakes worth the money? - in a word YES!

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[Bill Fulford]

Thanks everyone, I just toed in the brake pads and the squawk went away. I’m very thankful to be part of this very helpful group. Bill

[Joe Bernard]

Agreed James, I do NOT think Motolites and Shimano have the same performance. But salmon pads are a hassle, I use these "ebike pads" I got from Riv. 

[larson....@gmail.com]

I go back and forth on buying Motolites to replace my Shimano V brakes. I love the look and know that the Paul's work great, but the Shimano brakes really work well. I have had to stop in an emergency and could lock up the rear wheel on dry pavement, and rode in bad conditions (rain, mud and grit) on a northern forest road recently and had no problems. Ultimately, the frugal Scandinavian/Midwest farmer in me has won out and I have resisted the urge (so far).

Randy in WI

[Richard Rose]

Me, exactly! I did splurge on the Paul levers though.:)

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 8, 2023, at 7:33 PM, larson....@gmail.com <larson....@gmail.com> wrote:

I go back and forth on buying Motolites to replace my Shimano V brakes. I love the look and know that the Paul's work great, but the Shimano brakes really work well. I have had to stop in an emergency and could lock up the rear wheel on dry pavement, and rode in bad conditions (rain, mud and grit) on a northern forest road recently and had no problems. Ultimately, the frugal Scandinavian/Midwest farmer in me has won out and I have resisted the urge (so far).

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[Michael Moore, Jr.]

Richard that's exactly what I did on a recent build. I used Paul Love Levers paired with Shimano M750s on my mountain bike. They work great.

 I do run Paul Racer's on my Bleroit, but in 2007 they didn't seem like a major splurge (or time has warped my view).

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[John Dewey]

This is really old thread but I’ll chime in. 

I found an NOS Saluki recently with PAUL center pulls. The bike, once I applied a couple of component swaps, is beautiful. Very…uh…svelte, for want of a better word. But those PAUL brakes just did not fit…to my eye anyway. Too much industrial muscle and kind of stiff. I found some good old Weinmann centerpulls, long reach—they fit the the theme perfectly and stop surprisingly well. I sold the PAULS and put a wad of 💰 in my pocket. YRMV, but I’m happy. 

Jock

On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 10:52 AM Bill Fulford <bill.fu...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was recently gifted $500 to Rivendell. My plan was to upgrade my 2007 Atlantis with Paul brakes and levers. I placed the order only to read later that the brakes are sold per wheel. That’s  more than I wanted to spend. So before I call Rivendell tomorrow morning to cancel I’m wondering how folks feel about these brakes? I would be ordering the linear pull brake with love levers. Are they worth it?

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[larson....@gmail.com]

I have two bikes with Paul levers and love them. I upgraded my Black Mountain Cycles monstercross with Paul Neo Retro cantis and really like them and a significant improvement over the Tektros that I originally had on the bike.

Randy in WI

[Ben Adrian]

I've been on the lookout for a set of Paul Racer brakes for my rim brake bike. I tend to find that cheaper U brakes have too much spring tension and are not adjustable. My expectation is that Paul with be a very nicely made brake with much more tweakability that I'll enjoy.  I probably should just buy it new to support the semi-local business.

-Ben

[Jason Fuller]

I love this thread because Bill Lindsay had the perfect answer right off the bat and also predicted how it would go - over a year later and we're still at it. 

I've run the touring canti's and neo retro's in the past but as of this moment, I have two sets of Motolites (with matching Paul levers) and that's it for Paul stuff. My second favourite thing about the Motolites is that you can run a flat washer on the pads instead of the cup and cone washers, because all you need to do is set the angle to match the arc of the rim and then do the fine adjustment with the 4mm collar thing.  My first favourite thing is the fact they are Pauls, and this will always be the first favourite thing of anyone who vouches for Paul parts.  

[Richard Rose]

I did a big trail ride today on the Gus. 29” x 2.6” rolled over everything & my Deore v brakes with Love levers never left me wanting.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 9, 2023, at 8:32 PM, Jason Fuller <jtf.f...@gmail.com> wrote:

I love this thread because Bill Lindsay had the perfect answer right off the bat and also predicted how it would go - over a year later and we're still at it. 

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[Kim H.]

@Richard,

Wonderful to hear that. Feeling confident.

Kim Hetzel.

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[ascpgh]

I replaced the OE Shimano (then) long reach calipers of my '02 Rambouillet to get some braking in the wet which those groupless Shimanos failed to provide, even with salmon pads. What I gained was braking with modulation and adjustability far beyond what I had before. What I also got from these was clearance for the right size fenders over 700x 28mm tires. The original calipers had decreasing clearance beneath them as the brakes closed on the rims. Just a better design as a caliper.

On top of all of that I had the opportunity to talk to Paul Price at his Philly Bike Expo booth and was able to share my satisfaction and hear about how much of that had been included in the design as they refined it. Meeting him and having that conversation was worth the difference between the Racers and any other option.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Sarah Carlson]

I held my breath when I got the Paul Motolites for my Atlantis and I'm glad I did every time I ride it. I decided to save money by not getting the levers.... and I regret that. "Saving money" now means that I will upgrade my levers and pay for more labor putting them in (I am no bike mechanic). I have the Paul levers on my other bike and is just so much more satisfying in feel.

Can I chime in that a gift certificate is a perfect time to splurge on something you wouldn't normally do for yourself? I bet whoever gifted you that would love to see you with a really great set of beautiful functional brakes.....

[Patrick Moore]

I swapped Tektro C 720s for Paul cantis, Touring in the rear, Neo Retro in front, after I experienced severe squeal and judder in the front with the Tektros. The bike in question is a 58 cm c-c built for 26"/559 mm bsd wheels, so the steerer is hugely long.

I got the Tektros to work sufficiently well by toeing them in at an absurd angle, but the Pauls (using the same salmon pads) stop a wee bit better, with normal toe in, and judder in front is reduced to a fugitive whisper. And of course the Pauls are so easy to set up.

Are the Pauls worth 5X the Tektros? IMO, the Tektros look better -- more svelte, more shiny, at least when you remove the logo (tho' the careful engineering and quality materials of the Pauls have their own aesthetic merits) -- and are lighter (for what that's worth, but Bill would approve) and in most situations I'd choose the Tektros over the Pauls simply for looks and function, leaving aside price.

But for a situation like mine, where the more precise machining eliminates squeal and minimizes judder, I willingly paid 500% more for Pauls.

Note that I found both with Tektros and Pauls that I had to use them for ~ 1K miles before the pads bedded in and I got maximum braking.

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Know thine own meaning, but wouldst gabble like

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With words that made them known.

[Will Boericke]

It's not surprising to me that Pauls would be better than the 720s.  I know they (Tektro 720s) have a dedicated following; I can't understand why.  In my experience, they were mediocre stoppers, replaced quickly by Shimano CX70s and then by mini-Vs.  

I just replaced some budget Shimano cantis on my commuter with Velo Orange Zeste brakes and they're amazing.  For the $70 I paid, miraculous even.  Hard to imagine that Pauls would be better.

Will

[Patrick Moore]

IME the problem with the Tektros wasn't the stopping power but the sloppy pivots. They stopped about as well as the Pauls but they squealed and juddered. The Pauls are machined much more precisely and don't squeal at all or judder as much.

On my bike, the Pauls are no worse than any other cantilever I've used but their braking power is hardly beyond ordinary; the high end forged single pivot on my gofast road fixed gear gives more retardation per amount of hand squeeze than the Touring on the front of my errand road bike or the Neo Retro in back. Ditto for any number of single pivots, dual pivots, centerpulls, not to mention disks and V brakes.

I wish I'd known about the Zests before I bought Pauls. Perhaps they would have been more powerful.

Still, the Pauls are beautifully made, so very easy to set up, and perfectly functional, tho' I think they are more industrial looking that elegant. Overall, taking all with all, I'm not unhappy.

BUT! I will be very interested to hear others' comparison of the Zests with Pauls; or of other cantilevers wtih Pauls.

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[Patrick Moore]

And!!! Zests are half the price of Pauls!

[Ryan]

those zeste cantilever brakes have a Meccano set vibe that I rather like

I have experience with the grand cru road. it wouldn't surprise me that these work well too.

I think velo orange is a great company

[Will Boericke]

Cost was a significant part of my argument, for sure.  Also, Zestes will work with the normal spring anchors on most posts.  I am not a fan of Paul's spring solution - it's tidy but I found it finicky to adjust (and keep adjusted) on the one set of minimotos I owned.  That said, the Zeste brakes are non-trivial to install.  Took me an hour to do the first but was slightly quicker with the second set.

Will

[Max S]

I'll also chime in to say that Paul brakes have some advantageous features (e.g., continuous spring tension adjustability), but also some features that I find infuriating in actual use, and a few instances of downright poor mechanical design. 

One design flaw is the fully threaded mounting bolt on the Racer, which I discussed in a slightly geeky thread on iBOB / with Mark Bulgier. It places a stress riser precisely at the root, front of fork crown, where it should be avoided at all costs. Perhaps the grade of the steel is above and beyond what's been used in the past, but it would fail scrutiny in a basic mechanical design class.

Another flaw has to do with using a separate steel sleeve fitting over the canti stud. It puts the brake further out than it needs to, and the problem it's presumably attempting to solve (warped studs, bearing corrosion?..) creates problems with mounting in the first place, and is avoided entirely by brass bushings on the majority of other brakes. I've encountered problems mounting them on two frames, and a third frame I bought had one VERY firmly stuck on the stud... Haven't had this issue with any of the nearly two dozen conventional canti / V brakes I've used.

A third design flaw, IME, is the extra lip on the brake arm, forward of and at 90% to the brake pad mounting hole, which limits how close the pad can sit in the outboard direction. When trying to use this brake on bikes with slightly narrower canti stud placement (which are good, from the standpoint of minimizing pad dive), this extra lip creates rim clearance problems.

But hey, you can get them in lots of colors, and they're US-made, and they're made by an independent small shop, and they're a way to show you care about your bike, which I do in plenty of other ways myself... And the vast majority of us will not use them to the limit anyway.

I do like their brake levers, though!

- Max

[Michael McArthur]

I experienced the 'third design flaw' Max cites here whilst using Touring canti's and found it very frustrating. It limited my pad choice to very thin non-cartridge pads and choice of rims wider than 17mm inner width. I nearly ground off the extra lip that creates the pad/brake arm interference but instead just sold them. I've been much happier with the modern Shimano CX50/CX70 design and find it much more practical in every way.