Appaloosa drive train guidance

[Kushan]

Hi all - 

I acquired a 2021 Appaloosa over the summer and have been using it as my primary bike for the past few months. Despite the generous gearing (38x24 in front, 11-36 9-speed in rear), I am finding myself grinding significantly on sustained climbs over 7-8%. Part of this is my weight (250 lbs). The hefty tubing and upright bars of the bike contribute as well (my lighter road bikes with similar gearing feel easier on the same climbs). 

To make it a bit easier on my legs, I am contemplating "upgrading" to a wider range cassette in the back. More specifically, I am thinking of trying a 10-speed 11-42 cassette and wanted to get the group's input on whether this is a good idea.

• Will this even work with my current setup? I have Shimano Deore derailer and use Silver2 friction shifters for both front and rear. Based on the recent newsletter from Will on different derailer and cassette combo, I feel like this should work. Attached is the picture of the derailer when I am in the lowest gear both front and back.
• I currently have 9 speed 11-36 cassette and shifting works great. How will going to 10-speed affect the quality of shifting?

Best

Kushan

[Joe Bernard]

Hi Kushan,

You're likely going to need this doohickey which drops the derailer down a bit to clear the 42t, that Deore is rated to 36t (or 34 but works with 36) and getting it to climb 6 more teeth is a tall order. And a 10-speed chain, your 9-er won't fit between the narrower 10-speed cogs and wouldn't be long enough anyway. 

Others can chime in about 10-speed friction shifting, or you may find some discussion of it with a search. 

https://www.rivbike.com/products/zs-lna-klh99fgg54a1641fdg

[Nick Payne]

I used a Goatlink (https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/products/goatlink) when using a GRX 810 RD (rated for 34t cassette) with an 11-42 cassette and two chainrings up front. But you need a shadow RD for that to work, which yours isn't.

Nick

[Michael Morrissey]

What about a smaller chainring? I have a 32 tooth WolfTooth on my Appaloosa. 

[Kushan]

Michael - I already have a 24 tooth front chainring (as part of double) so don't think it can go any lower.

Joe and Nick - Thanks! Based on the clearance, I also suspected that I would need an extender for the derailer hanger.

Looking for others comments on impact of going from 9 to 10 speed. 

[Bill Schairer]

Check out the Mountain Tamer (http://abundantadventures.com/mt_triple.html).  I use this with a 19t cog with Silver crankset and a 12-36 9 speed cassette on my Atlantis without any issues.

Bill S

San Diego

[J Schwartz]

I've never seen that thing before (Moutain Tamer)...Looks useful as long as derailleurs can handle it.

Would be fun to make a quad , something like 46/34/26/18 with a 12-34 in the rear ...no need for large cassette or roadlink device

[Collin A]

Kushan,

Sorry to hear of the laborious grinding on steep-but-not-so-steep climbs with your Appaloosa. I have a similar feeling with mine and my theory is that it has to do with the extra long chain flexing and stretching more and transferring less of your foot force to the rear wheel. But that doesn't really answer you question....

In regards to having a lower gear for climbing, I feel like at the gear ratio you are at (24/36), anything lower would be slower than walking (which is when I usually hop off and start walking). Is this something you have considered? 

Otherwise, the recommendations for the deraileur dropper would do the ticket, though you'd also likely need another chain given the bigger cogs...at which point a 10 speed chain would be a good investment (just make sure you have enough links, likely 123-ish) and work well with the 9 speed components on the rest of the bike. I think the sunrace 11-42 cassettes still come with the derailieur hanger extenders, so it might be worth checking them out.

Good luck,

Collin, flatlander in Sacramento

On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 11:10:13 AM UTC-7 Kushan wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

30 and more years ago I tried a 16, 17, or 18 t MT Quad with a 48/38/28 original Deore or Deore XT triple, and found the shifting so finicky that I returned it. It would probably work best as a small granny added to a double.

The maker still lives in Albuquerque as he did in 1989 or so when I first visited him. He must be well into his 70s by now.

But I have to agree with Collin: at a certain point it's just easier to walk, though people have said that for loaded touring on pavement, even very tiny sub 20" gears are useful.

[Joe Bernard]

I think we've established that the 11-42 cassette, 10-speed chain and Wolf Link is a fairly simple swap, the question is how will it shift. Has anyone here friction-shifted 10-speed?

[lconley]

Kind of depends on the shifter. I have silver 1s (2s will fit) on my Riv Custom  with 11 speeds. The 1s require more shifter rotation for the shift - almost 180 degrees for all 11 gears, but it is easier to find the individual gears instead of shifting two at a time. Gear to gear it is similar shifter movement to shifting an old 5/6 speed. Still experimenting.

Laing

[Patrick Moore]

I shift a non-standard 10-sp cassette (but more-or-less in-series Miche cogs) with Suntour Barcons and the shifting is excellent. This is a very close ratio cassette, though.

I'm using an 11-speed chain, per a tip from Bike Radar that a chain 1 generation ahead of the cassette allows crisper shifting. I can't say I've noticed a huge difference over a 10 speed chain, but -- again -- the sytem shifts wonderfully, so much so that I'm tempted to try friction shifting an 11-speed cassette.

On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 1:43 PM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

... the 11-42 cassette, 10-speed chain and Wolf Link is a fairly simple swap, the question is how will it shift. Has anyone here friction-shifted 10-speed?

[Patrick Moore]

And, forgot to add: IME, the Barcons shift 10 cogs nicer than Silvers. My experience.

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Garth]

As Nick mentioned, 24/36 is already very low and lower would be so slow and/or unstable to keep a straight line that I'd ask myself "what the point"? I'd rather walk up any such sections. I don't do it often but I've done it in some places where the section of road/trail is very steep and traction wonky. What's funny is in walking, I can even look around and enjoy the scenery around here because those places here are always in the woods. I've even walked down some steep sections for the view/relaxing and to unplug from tunnel vision of navigating a line and braking on such steep/irregular surfaces. What's the point of being in paradise and be in a hurry to pass by/leave ? I didn't realize that until I just stopped. Time, distance, space ... to heck with all of it ! BEING is where it's at and enjoying It to the fullest.

[Jared Wilson]

"What's the point of being in paradise and be in a hurry to pass by/leave ? I didn't realize that until I just stopped. Time, distance, space ... to heck with all of it ! BEING is where it's at and enjoying It to the fullest." - Garth

I needed that right now, thank you.

[Joe Bernard]

I think the point for Kushan is to have a slightly lower gear available and an 11-42 cassette can be sourced in a parts shortage. It doesn't necessarily mean the lowest gear will be used. 

On Tuesday, October 12, 2021 at 2:02:18 PM UTC-7 Garth wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

The other nifty thing this does is make the bike essentially a 1x with bailout. Most riding would be in the big ring with that cassette so there's less fiddling with the front derailer.*

* Exposing my 1x bias, I dislike front derailers, my custom is a 36 x 11-50 11-speed SRAM shifter and derailer with SunRace cassette. 

Joe Bernard

[Bill Schairer]

I ran my MT as a quad for a very short time just to try it.  I agree with Patrick that the shifting was very finicky, I couldn't remember where I was, and it was just overkill for my purposes.  It was just a fun experiment.  I use MT as my granny for loaded off-road touring and it worked very nicely. Personally, I don't think I would use it in a double but is great for a triple. I used an Altus rear derailleur because it wraps so much chain.  I could (but wouldn't) run the whole cassette on the 19t ring.  With respect to other observations, yes, 24x36 is nice and low and what I use when back home but apparently  OP wants lower so the MT provides that option.  It may or may not be the best option for the OP.  I suppose I can walk faster than 19x36 on level ground while not pushing anything but in all my years of riding, I have never had someone pushing a bike pass me while I was riding and I have never passed someone riding a bike while I was pushing mine.  Pushing a loaded bike that wants to roll backwards on a steep hill is something that I have never found to be easy or enjoyable.  I avoid it when I can.

Bill S

San Diego

[Garth]

Oh, I meant Collin A in my reply .... !

You're welcome !!!   .... I don't know your name "duh...gmail"

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I use a 10-speed friction drivetrain on my Roadeo.  It has a Sugino Alpina cranks with SRAM 11-28 and microshift friction bar-ends with Ultegra RD.  It shifts great.

Toshi

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[Erik]

Hi Kushan.  I did something similar to the drivetrain on my Appaloosa last year.  I have a 42 / 24 double up front and wanted an ultra-low bailout gear in the back for loaded off-road riding / touring.  I'm not a small man and when I get the bike loaded with gear, it's nice to have something really, really low for short stretches to give me a little recovery time on long climbs.  I looked at 10spd cassettes but ended up going with a SunRace 11 - 40t 9spd cassette to minimize the number of components I had to change.  It worked really well.  

My full set-up was: SunRace 9spd thumb shifters (the type Riv used on a lot of builds), 11-40 SunRace 9spd cassette, and a SRAM GX 10spd derailer.  I used that derailer as it worked with an 11-40 without any extender but was compatible with the 9spd shifters.  Interestingly, this set-up shifted through the full 11-40 without any sort of pull modification. I also used this set-up with Shimano bar-end shifters, but that required a JTek cable pull modifier. I currently have this set up with Microshift thumb shifters in friction mode and a cable pull modifier.   I suspect that the 9spd Deore and Silver shifters would work just fine with a GoatLink or similar extender.

At any rate, the 24 x 40 combo has provided a usable low, low gear.  I rarely use it, but it's nice when needed, which has always been on extended climbs with lots of weight on the bike.  I use it for short periods before shifting back into gears that actually feel like they are giving me forward progress!  24 x 40 almost feels like sitting still!   The lowest gear-inch on a 24 x 40 is 15.8 inches.  A 24x40  is 16.6.  Pretty close.  By contrast a 24x36 is 18.6.  (These calcs are with a 700c wheel at 42mm).  Again, I rarely use the lowest gear, but it's nice to have on occasion.  It's not THAT much different from an 11-36 in practice, but it is lower on paper and in my head.  :)   

And the SunRace 11-40 9spd is currently available from a lot of different retailers.  

Erik 

[Nick Payne]

One of the problems with using a dropout extender that moves the whole derailleur down, to work with a larger cassette than the design spec, is that the shifting becomes pretty bad in the smaller cogs, because the top jockey pulley is now a considerable distance from those cogs.

Nick

[Joe Bernard]

You got a 9spd SunRace shifter and cassette to index with a 10spd SRAM GX derailer? How did you even think to try it??

[Erik]

These are the SunRace one-at-a-time shifters, so not really indexing.  The GX derailer was originally paired with Shimano bar-ends and a Jtek pull modifier when I had the bike set up with drops.  I purchased it all from Analog with advice from James.  When I moved to the Jones H-Loop, I swapped the SunRace shifters into the system without the pull modifier to see if it would work.  Surprisingly it did so I rode with those for the past nine months or so.   I would never have tried the GX with a nine speed shifter had it not been for Analog.    

[brizbarn]

Kushan, I think a lot of these things people are mentioning are unnecessary.  Get the 10 speed wider-range cassette, put it on and ride it.  You use friction shifting, so you should be able to shift through all those gears just fine without needing to buy other stuff.  Maybe you'll need a new chain, since yours may be too short for the jump from 36t to 42t, but maybe not (or maybe add some extra links back on your current chain). Your 9 speed Diore derailleur will more than likely make it to that 42t.  My friend ran a similar set up just fine with the same derailleur, but had it 1x.  I currently run a 1x10 with microshift 11-48 cassette and derailleur, 38t narrow-wide chainring, and a left-handed front friction shifter on a Paul Thumbie, it all works like a dream. I second Joe's dislike of front derailleurs and will probably never go back.  Also, never under estimate getting out of the saddle to crank up a hill, relying on your body rather than having the perfect gearing.  Nothing wrong with hike-a-biking when things get too steep. 

On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 11:10:13 AM UTC-7 Kushan wrote:

[Kushan]

All - This has been a highly educational discussion.

My intention is to have a cope out gear for those long rides when I am already on mile 60-70 and then hit a an incline of 8%+. With my current 11-36 set up, I do find myself "maxed up" quite often on such a ride and wishing for an extra gear that can take me over the next edge.

Here is what I am thinking about the options discussed here:

- Mountain tamer and changing the front chainring: This is definitely an out-of-the-box option. However, having tried to fiddle with front derailers on other bikes, I too share the hatred for them (but continue to use them out of the need for a wide gear range). My current drive train is set up by RBW, works perfectly, and I am just afraid to mess with it.

- Wide range cassette: In addition to what brizbarn mentioned above, I got another data point on this front. A friend just recently got an 11-40 11-speed cassette with 8-speed Nexave derailer and Silver thumbies in friction mode. He is using this with 34-24 in front. I haven't tried this myself but he swears that it works like a dream. Plus RBW did this whole set up for him and I am inclined to believe that they wouldn't do it if it wasn't working well. So I am most likely going to try out this option of using a 11-40 or 11-42 cassette (9 or 10 speed) with my existing derailer. I am going to try it out without an extender since it seems to work for others. 

- Hike-a-bike: You guys make a valid point on this one. Logistically, this option is no slower than what I am proposing with a wide-range cassette. The biggest hurdle though is the mental pain of admitting that certain hills at certain times are beyond your abilities. There is also that "poor you" look you get from others as they pass you :) . But nonetheless, this is a fine option indeed and I might just stick to it in the short run until my current components wear out and need changing. 

[Drw]

I know of a number of people who don't mind friction shifting 10 or 11 speed. For me, i got tons of ghost shifting when i tried 10 speed with bar ends. Especially in the little cogs, the chain really wanted to jump around and the tweaking between gears was so minor that i went back to 9 speed. Wide range 9 speeds are readily available these days and unless it's a 1x system, i don't really see much need for 10+.  I feel like im a pretty weak rider on prolonged inclines as well, so i definitely understand the desire to find a gear that will work on hills. 

FWIW i have a 1x bike with a 38t chainring and an 11-40 (i think) cassette, and another bike thats a 2x with a low of 24-42 and that is so low, it is a little hard to keep the bike balanced for me, or exhaust myself by spinning so fast. 

[James / Analog Cycles]

The Appaloosa doesn't climb more slowly than a road bike because of it's length, it climbs more slowly because your body can not generate the same amount of speed per watt with the riding position.  This could be easily demonstrated by riding the same slope 3 times with a power meter at a constant wattage.  One time ride it with the bars high, one time lower them 1 inch, and one more time an inch further still. The speed will go up as the wattage stays the same.  Chains don't flex, except side to side, if they did they'd snap.  Chainstays flex side to side, but not in compression.  As to unusably low gearing, for 7+ years I've been specing bikes with 24 granny gears and 40t large cogs, with gear inches between 16 and 17, depending on tire size.  It's perfectly usable, and helpful on loose terrain with a load.  We've experimented with gearing as low as 14.45, with a 20t ring on a 94 /58 triple and a 36 out back.  Again, perfectly useful.  Walking up a steep scree covered slope with a load is much harder than pedaling, even if you are moving slower than a walker.  As to the OP's idea, I would recommend a wolf tooth road link, a longer chain, and an 11-40 9 speed cassette, which will not seriously mess with the derailleurs capacity.  Shifting is fine in the smaller cogs, you simply have to dial the b screw out a bit.  I've set up hundreds of bikes like this, with many repeat customers asking for the same thing, again.  Works fine.  

-James / Analog Cycles