Introducing the Charlie H Gallop Protovelo

[Johnny Alien]

My free time has been limited so I let a local shop do most of the work on my newly acquired Gallop. It's set up as a 1X11 (my first for that type of drivetrain). That's a 36t Woolftooth chainring mated to New Albion crank arms. I knew that the New Albion's were rebranded Sugino but what's interesting is they actually say XD on the inside. The rear cassette is 11-42. I don't need the super low gears and the 42 has less drastic jumps.  After riding this for a few days I think I am going to move the chainring up to a 38t. Maybe even 40t. I'm not sure yet.  I went with mini-v brakes because 1. My brakes were compatible with both long and short pull and 2, It would give me flexibility if I decided to go with more of a road setup at some time.  It turns out that while there is plenty of room for big tires the mini-v's at 85mm long are REALLY close to the tires.  I do love these brakes though so I may move them over to my Saluki and go with regular V's on this. I have heard that Grant is considering moving away from the V setup on these if they go into production. I assume they would move to sidepull for a more standard road look. I will say this...I was told that these would handle 45mm tires but with the right brakes it could go much bigger than that.  The Ultradynamicos I highly recommend. The microshift thumbshifter works flawlessly with the Shimano RD when indexed. Better than I expected.  I am on the fence about the Billie bars. I enjoy them but I am not used to this wide of bars with that much flex. It's weird.  Anyway here are the photos. The bike is killer and does exactly what Grant wanted...a road focused bike built for sweptback bars. It's pretty light and has a cool oval top tube. 

[Joe Bernard]

That's a nice (and currently extremely rare) bike! I have my custom set up similar with a 36t Sugino (with guard) and 11-50 11-speed. Bars are Billie on a Periscopa, about to be switched to a 10cm DirtDrop stem. 

Your flex issue with Billie's may be (probably is) partly attributable to that long flexy stem you're using. I'll bet a DirtDrop - if you can make the length work - or steel Nitto HiRiser would stiffen things up some. Here's a pic of my Billie/Periscopa. 

Joe Bernard

[Johnny Alien]

I am sure that you are absolutely correct about the stem playing into it. I would actually drop this stem a touch but it's one of those overly long one stems and that is literally as low as it will go. I ordered a Nitto MT mountain stem which would have been shorter in length and angled up a touch to allow me to drop it even further but I messed up and it was for a 25.4 column instead of 22.2. End result it won't work and I can't sell a stem of that size because who needs it?  Killer looking custom!!

[Jason Fuller]

Beautiful build, and I am supremely jealous. The crew knows that if they decide to sell the grivler 53, they've got a buyer in me. I love how low and long it is, like a scrawny Hillibike. That would be a pretty optimal two-bike quiver; this and a matching Susie.  

[Johnny Alien]

Updated photos: 

• New stem (I like the positive degree angle and also wanted something with a removable faceplate)
• I swapped the bar for Loscos (I like the Billies and will be using them on an upcoming build but I think the Losco has a better look for a road bike and no negatives when compared to the Billies)
• I swapped tires (I didn't care for the Ultradymanicos. They are Rene Herse tires and they are really nice. The mismatching is just because)
  

[Eric Marth]

Looks great, Johnny. 

Can you tell us about the ride? How does it handle and what kinds of rides have you taken it on? 

[Justin]

The cockpit change up was an improvement, looks great. Curious about the Ultradynamicos. In your original post you highly recommended them but ended up not caring for them, curious what changed? I've been waiting on their restocking

[Jason Fuller]

I too was surprised to see you ended up not feeling the Cava's, though I wholeheartedly agree that the RH tires are vastly more comfortable.  I find the UD Cava to be a nice mix of speed and grip for mixed pavement and hardpack, but their casings don't feel very supple/comfortable even in Race version.  

[Johnny Alien]

I forgot that I was so positive about the Ultradynamicos.  I had the JFF version which is not the most supple but also not the most robust.  They rode well but after awhile for mostly road use the little knobs or whatever they are just seemed to be a drag. I think they would do really well for light trail use but for straight road use they just ended up seeming a little overbuilt for what they want to be.  I was loving life when I first got this bike and I think I was overlooking aspects of the tire that later became more apparent. I never tried the race version but for the money I think there are better riding and more supple options. Many of them cheaper too.

[Johnny Alien]

@Eric I missed your question yesterday. I use it for all my road riding. I normally (In the warmer months) ride a few times a week and about 10 miles at a time. I like light trails rides but those require me driving to them so I don't do them as often and am in the process of getting another bike setup for those rides and for shopping runs.  This one will stick to the fun quick road rides. I did do a couple of "tour" rides with it last year. Those were in the 50-75 miles range.  I still had the Billie bars at that time and it all worked well.  I have it built to be pretty light and IMO it rides like a great road bike should. The front end was flexy with the old Nitto stem and wide Billie bars. I am curious as to how the new setup will affect that. Its still pretty cold so my rides have been very short. The long wheelbase makes fast descents solid and fun.  Its a new experience doing all of my riding upright now but so far I don't have a desire to go back. (although I do love Albastache bars).

I am a bit shocked that Rivendell is going to make these available with albastache bars stock.  I normally run the albastache on a shorter stem than my drops. So if I ride drops on an 8 I would put an albastache on a 7 or more likely a 6.  It's because I spend more time stretched out into the "hook" area which is not something I do as often on regular drops. There I spend the bulk of my time on the top or hoods.  The Gallop is designed for sweptback bars so in order to do drops you would need a very short stem unless you have a long torso.  For me to do albastache I would probably need one of those zero extension bars. I think they should keep pushing the sweptbacks. I think the choco and losco/tosco are going to be the sweet spot but I will know more in a few weeks when things start to warm up.

[Jason Fuller]

Introducing MY protovelo Charlie (54cm), if it's okay for me to join you in this thread Johnny! 

Quick neighborhood ride today between meetings in exactly the trim it came in, because I'll be swapping parts around from here on out and wanted to document the starting point.  

[Johnny Alien]

Yes!! I was hoping to hear from the other proto owners.  Yours is the reverse of mine. I have a Gallop headbadge but protovelo decals and your has the gallop decals but no headbadge.  Love the color on that one. How is it with drops? Are you planning to keep it that way? Do they have mini-V's on that? It looks like it might.

[Eric Floden]

Now these are very nice!

ef

jealous in Vancouver

[Jason Fuller]

Johnny - indeed!  I am generally not sold on the script font of the downtube badge but I really like it on the silver, has a distinct Stumpjumper vibe (or maybe Crossroads, which this bike much more closely resembles). I already stuck a Simworks decal on the head tube in lieu of a head badge. The drops are coming off for now, this bike is sized a bit large for me which was exactly what I wanted for an Albatross / Billie setup and for now I'll try the Billies on a very long stem since they come back so far.  They are Mini-V's but it's looking iffy with fender clearance in the back particularly, and I have a set of black Motolites and levers on hand, so these brakes won't last the weekend I expect. 

I bought this bike to be a daily workhorse commuter because my commute is long and something a little quicker yet more comfortable than my MB-3 is ideal - and I'm confident this bike will check those boxes perfectly!  Hence it won't be flashy at all, quite a departure from my Bombadil, but should have rugged good looks :)    

[Karl Wilcox]

Now that is a bicycle I would buy!  The drops just seem perfect to me... encouraging to see drops on a Rivendell!

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[Johnny Alien]

@Jason you are probably right about fender clearance.  The Ultradynamicos I had on it were 48's and just barely cleared the mini-v's.  I am happy with the size if tire I have now (Babyshoe Pass 42) but I am still planning on moving to full size V's when Rivendell releases their new ones.

[Eric Marth]

Thanks for sharing, Jason! I know the frame's a bit big for you yet I'm curious to know how it feels with the drops. Too stretched out for you to get a good idea? 

Please tell us you're keeping that Suntour BL front mech. 

I know you like the nice tires, what are you thinking of for the Gallop? 

And I agree about the decals, a rare miss for Riv, I think. I do appreciate the chainstay decals which recall Eadweard Muybridge. 

[Jason Fuller]

Eric - I certainly am of course!  And trying to reprogram my brain for rapid rise (didn't realize it was coming with!).  The Suntour BL may end up on the Hillborne if I move away from the Campy Athena group on it now. 

I know it's not at all what Rivendell intended for this bike, but I've built it up to be a flat bar commuter - my commute is 10 miles each way so something zippy enough to save a few minutes was in order. Unsurprisingly, it's extremely comfortable and smooth over broken pavement. I won't be carrying heavy loads on it, but it's my new everyday bike and so big grocery runs aren't out of the question.  I've seen the tubing selection for this bike - it's still pretty stout by non-Riv standards, but rides like a dream so far! 

I was debating between the Wavie or the Albatross (on a 2cm longer stem) but this required less parts swapping so it gets first try.   

[Eric Marth]

Phew wee! You must have a mighty nice parts cupboard! 

Looks great, glad to hear you're enjoying it so far :) 

[David Hays]

Beautiful bike and build Jason.

Love to see other Rivendell drop bar bikes.

David Hays

On Feb 10, 2022, at 9:02 PM, Jason Fuller <jtf.f...@gmail.com> wrote:

Introducing MY protovelo Charlie (54cm), if it's okay for me to join you in this thread Johnny! 

Quick neighborhood ride today between meetings in exactly the trim it came in, because I'll be swapping parts around from here on out and wanted to document the starting point.  

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[Pancake]

Drop bar Sam checking in per David's request/comment ... soon to be replaced by another Proto Charlie (photos of that orange 57cm to come later).

[Johnny Alien]

Pancake, so you got the third Gallop V1 prototype?

[David Hays]

I think it might have been OT post keeping a smile on my face.

Sorry if I unintentionally entrapped him…

David

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[Pancake]

Johny: yes, my friend was quick on the draw and got it for me because they knew it was my ideal version of a Charlie - gotta have those canti/v-brake posts. It’ll end up replacing my Sam Hillborne. 

Now Charlie’s sitting (ironically with no saddle) in my garage waiting for a few quick changes (replace the C15 narrow saddle with my Flyer imperial, add a rack and basket) before getting some commuter duty and a nice long ride next weekend… then more tinkering and changes to follow like:

• Mini v-brakes (likely Shimano BR R353 with 90mm arch, taller than the Box Two or Three 85mm mini v’s), 

• Swapping for my Hillborne’s wheelset (first wheels I built) with G-One Allround 50mm tires

• Dynamo lights, 

• 46/30t double crankset to a 11-40t cassette (which may require a wolftooth-like hanger extender), and 

• Kona Wah Wah pedals. 

Now I just need some spare time for wrenching … but I’ll probably spend that time riding my daughters around in the Rosco Baby bike instead. The highest form of productive procrastination.

Abe

[Johnny Alien]

Killer! I can't wait to see it. Make sure to post it up here when its done.  The extra few mm of height on those mini-v's should be perfect. I have the Box mini's and they cleared a real world 48mm tire with just a touch of clearance. The extra bit of height should allow you to clear 50's.  I plan to move to Rivendell V's when they are available only because I love the way they are looking from the early drawings and such.

[Eric Marth]

Hi Gallop riders – Does anyone have a take on the Gallop in contrast to an unloaded Hillborne with drops? I know Jason has a Hillborne but racked and fendered. Curious how they compare :)

[Jason Fuller]

I can't offer a very good A-B comparison based on their setups, though they've both been set up with the Wavie bar at one point or another, but my feel so far is that they're not too different from one another - I noticed from the attached engineering drawings that the tubing is quite similar spec, though a bit more flex built into the Charlie, and the angles are similar also (some math required on the CHG but it's HTA 71 / 71.5 STA). They both seem to possess that 'surprisingly quick considering it's so comfortable' quality, but my belief is that it would be marginal gains at best going from a Sam to a CHG in terms of speed, with the same setup.  

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[Johnny Alien]

At that point I really think it comes down to builds. A SH built up lightish could feel much more nimble and quick than a Gallop with full racks, fenders, heavy tires etc. I agree with Jason that built the same they would likely feel pretty similar.

[Eric Marth]

Very cool, thank ya both! 

[Jason Fuller]

Photo from today's lunchtime loop. I will be performing a bar/stem swap between this bike and the Bombadil (which is 11cm Tallux and Albatross) as well as cabling etc, then I believe the bike is "done" for a bit. Oh, and a cheap dynamo front wheel because a commuter must have dynamo in my books. 

As much as I would not pick these tires for myself, I must admit they're pretty well suited to my needs (daily commuting and general getting around on pavement and hardpack paths) so I am going to do my best to leave them well enough alone. I was quite pleased to see they clear the VO Zeppelin fenders with plenty of room despite being at the top end of the fitment range. 

Has anyone tried shellac'ing over the padded Newbaums? Yay or nay?  

 

[Jason Fuller]

Update - put on the Albatross bars. One kind of annoying nuance to this prototype frame is that they didn't ream the steerer as deep as they do for their production bikes, so I can't get the stem quite as low as I wanted, but it's close enough that it doesn't warrant buying a new stem. That said, I am actually quite floored by how much the Albatross brought this bike to life for what I want from it.  I've run these bars on a few bikes but this is the best they've felt on any bike for me. It's feeling very right to me now. I know it's meant to be a roadish bike but I'd sooner put drops on a Homer or Hillborne; to me this bike suits the Albatross so perfectly.  

[Johnny Alien]

I had the same issue with the stem but didn't attribute it to being a prototype.  I can't use taller stems at all because they just don't go down deep enough. Is that not the case with standard Riv's?

I used Billie's and really enjoyed it.  It's clear that the frame was built for sweptbacks.

[Pancake]

Here's my 57cm prototype Charlie update and build:

https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/DUpFlP27OE4/m/HZb6bU5XBAAJ

More pics here:  https://imgur.com/a/RiI8NN4

My friend caught this 57cm Charlie prototype for me a few weeks ago - my ideal Riv since I want v-brakes (that my Sam and Cheviot lack). Sadly, this will end up replacing my Sam, but what a replacement! Vs. Sam: No more toe clip overlap, more chainstay length, climbs better (this surprised me), and more comfortable (for me at least). 

I swapped nearly everything from my Hillborne onto the Charlie (and vice versa):

Frame - Charlie H Gallop 57cm prototype with canti posts
Wheelset - VO Voyager rims, DT Swiss Competition (double butted) spokes, SP (Shutter Precision) PV-8 dynamo hub in front, Bitex rear hub, Salsa skewers

Stem - Nitto technomic 70mm (IIRC)

Handlebars – Soma Portola (52cm wide at bar ends, 48cm at hoods)

Brake levers – TRP RRL 

Brakes - rear CX70 canti, front Shimano BR-R353 (will replace with Tektro 926al which has 85mm arms vs 90mm on the Shimanos ... they work well but the levers don't quite pull enough to feel right with the long arms). Koolstop e-brake pads in front. 

Handlbar tape - will replace random rainbow stuff with Newbaums some day.
Seatpost - Nitto S83

Seat - Brooks Flyer (but may replace with B17s or C19)

Crankset - Sugino clipper triple 26/36/46 ... will replace with VO 46/30 double

Cassette – Suntour 11-40t 9 speed
Front derailleur – Riv put on a Blue Line, it is JUST enough range to shift to the tallest chainring, but only just.

Rear derailer - nexus rapid rise, it doesn't have quite enough spring tension with this setup to keep from skipping under hard pedaling, I'll try the XT rapid rise and hope that works better like it did on the Sam.

Pedals – Kona Wah Wah - 118mm x 120mm
Tires – Schwalbe G-One Allround 700 x 50mm

Lights - IQ-XS in front and Secula in back

Abe

[Jason Fuller]

Very nice Abe! I can believe it on the climbing - the long rear end makes a world of a difference for climbing, I find! 

Not much has changed on mine since I last posted it - the Albatross bars feel perfect on this bike for me, even though it's suited to drops or moustache bars. Granted, I'm using it a bit differently than intended too. I've put a used dynamo front wheel on and am embracing the mismatched wheels. Here's a pic of it on my way to donate some excess tires and parts to the local non-profit bike shop today. No plans to change a thing! I'll put some RH Barlow Pass endurance on eventually, but I want to wear these out first 

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[Johnny Alien]

I love both of these builds. I can imagine the Albatross work well. I enjoyed running Billie bars on mine.

[Jason Fuller]

I started a review of mine, to pay back the privilege of owning one already!  I haven't so much as proofread it, let alone edit it, so bear that in mind 

https://www.jasonmytail.com/75-day-700km-review-rivendell-charlie-h-gallop/

[brendonoid]

Thanks for the review I enjoyed it! I think you are right about the canti posts but I suspect it is much too late to change it.

[Pancake]

I want canti posts because I want v-brakes on this bike. The reference in a prior email or blagh or somewhere by Riv said something like, 'they left to spongy or squishy or something' ... and they're right. At least on my 57cm prototype. 

I tried the Shimano BR-R353 with 90mm long arms ... way too soft a feel at the brake levers (using TRP RRL brakes). Needed to setup the pads less than 2mm from the rim on each side which leaves no room for less than true rims. And the brake levers pull all the way to the handlebar ... though they brake plenty hard and strong way before that point. The braking is nearly too easy (tremendous mechanical advantage) but feels easy or soft as you pull. 

Switching to an 84mm arm Tektro brake helped but not dramatically, just noticeably. 

Switching to 82mm Litepro arms helped enough that I'll stay with this setup, but it's still a bit soft. And there not much of any room left for the brake cable to clear the 50mm knobbie tires I have on now (Schwalbe G-One Allround). 

I'm used to v-brakes feeling pretty solid as you pull the lever, that's how my Rosco baby bike and nearly every other v-braked bike I've owned operated. Solid pressure at the fingers as you pull and hit a point where you can't pull more (and the brake pads were engaged fully long before that pull point regardless). 

I bet a 75mm brake arm v-brake and a 38mm tire would work with the pressure and pull feel I expect, but that's not an option as far as I know (or want).

Ultimately I'll probably do what Jason did and switch to upright bars and linear pull long arm v-brakes. Right now I have swapped some levers and a stem on my Albatross bars (mounted upside down so they drop a bit like the Albastash (which the protocharlie arrived with) and I expect that (plus some MX70 brake arms) would leave me with the expected brake feel. I'm on the lookout for 60mm wide, 25.4mm clamp diameter Tosco bars to try instead (I have 55cm Toscos but they're happy on the Cheviot for now). 

Perhaps it's just my setup or bike, but the brake posts seem to be offset by about 2mm (requiring a spacer switch on the pads to make up the difference) which makes the narrow clearance of the pads on short pull v-brake arms even more cumbersome.

Love the Charlie ride feel though - best of the Cheviot (probably from the long stays and low step over) and the Sam (accelerates even quicker, just feels fast in a way the Cheviot doesn't even though my chev has 42mm smooth basketball tires and the Charles has 50mm knobbies). 

Very happy with the Charles, but I suspect absent some meaningful changes (that I suspect would make it less road-ish) the canti arms as on the prototypes were not quite right. If this were meant for upright bars and standard linear pull v-brakes I bet they'd have had an easy decision to stick with canti-posts, but for a bike meant for drop bars I can see why they went the other way.  

[Eric Daume]

Mini V brakes seem like a lost middle ground IMO. Either use V brakes with long pull levers, or cantis with short pull levers. 

Either one of these option would be far better than long reach caliper brakes, which are too flexy for good braking.

Eric

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[Jason Fuller]

I don't find my rear V-brake to be all that spongy to be honest. Maybe it's the Paul lever and arms - but more likely it's just about good brake housing. Full length housing is always squishier, of course, but I don't see how putting caliper brakes on solves the problem - just reducing braking power to reduce housing compression?? Not to mention adding MORE overall flex through flexier brake arms.. 

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[Pancake]

Jason, I bet the long arm v-brakes are a big improvement; Paul components only maximizing that difference, but I'm sure the T610 or Alivio v-brake arms would work a charm with any linear / long pull levers. 

I used Jagwire "pro compressionless" housing which gives that firm feeling on my other bikes, but not on the charles with the short pull mini-v's.

If I find myself with more time to wrench than to ride I'll swap on the Albatross bars with some standard v-brakes / levers and let everyone know; but I'm sure it will be nearly as nice as your Paul setup as far as firm stopping and feel. 

As is, I have VERY firm stopping power but the feel is ... squishy at the lever. But more than enough power at the brakes to make the tires skid and quickly. 

[Johnny Alien]

I have mini-V brakes on mine and don't feel the brakes are spongy at all. It felt much more solid than my bikes with canti brakes.  I can't imagine that long reach side pulls feel more solid than ANY canti or V brake setup. 

[Takashi]

Thank you for the review Jason.

Now that I read the review I'm interested in Charlie, though I can't justify buying another bike.

Takashi

[Eric Marth]

Thanks as always for a thoughtful writeup and great pictures, Jason!

I probably will never buy a Gallop but I totally agree about the canti studs. 

[maxcr]

Thanks for the post Jason, loved reading about your experience! 

I'm another lucky owner of a demo Gallop (61.5cm) with canti studs. I'm impatiently waiting for it to get delivered, it's taken forever to ship, but it's supposed to get here later this week - I'm sure the wait will be worth it and I hope to turn it into my main commuter and around town bike.

My pbh is 90.5 (ish) but I'm 5'11" with long legs & shorter torso - I'm very curious to see if the ETT will work for me with drop bars of I will need to switch over to swept back bars... I have an albatross cockpit ready to go for it just in case but I've never loved the wrist angle it puts me on. This will be my first bike with a swoop tube and I'm very excited about going in that direction but I'm not sure about fit.

Also wondering about the brakes, mine comes with CX50 but I have a set of Paul Motolites and some Cane Creek drop bar levers for V-Brakes that I could use if I decide to stick with the drop bars... the alternative would be to take the Paul cantis from the Atlantis and move them over to the incoming Gallop (leaving the Motolites for the Atlantis which I plan to turn into more of a hilly bike) - first world problems for sure.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on which brakes/levers would you pair with which bike if it were you?

Max

[Jason Fuller]

Hey thanks for the kind words to those who offered them!

Abe, maybe some of those old school "brake booster" brackets would do the trick!  It could be the relatively long and thin seat stays that are twisting more than the housing compression that I initially blamed? 

Max, I found that angling the bars down further than I initially thought was 'correct' did the trick for wrist angle for me, maybe it would for you also if you haven't tried this already

[Jason Fuller]

Charlie has become my "what the heck why not" bike... some colorful tires in place. It's my "grab and go" bike when I don't want or need to think about it, in addition to my commuter - but I'm wfh often enough I can't call it a daily commuter yet.  

[brendonoid]

I love that you have only had this bike for ~3 months and it already looks like it has lived.

[Jason Fuller]

Hah, thanks Brendon, I hope it doesn't age this quickly from here on out!  It has just about 900 km on it, usually my bikes still look pretty new at that mileage but this one was definitely decorated for daily use and also highly personalized as theft deterrent. Originally my plan was to make it blend into the background, but clearly went a different route! 

[maxcr]

Here are a few pics of a quick ride down to the Boston Harbor on my Gallop yesterday (Charlie H Gallop decals, Rosco Bubbe headbadge with canti studs).

I still plan to do a couple of adjustments on it. Not sure if I'll switch handlebars to Albatross or just re-wrap my handlebars, I did a terrible job the first time around. All I can say is that I'm really digging this bike.

Also, not sure if the other proto owners have had similar issues, but I went for a 13m ride the other day and found myself riding in rougher terrain than expected... the Gallop handled it very well but two things happened: I hit my pedal on rocks twice (must be that this is meant to be a road bike with a lower bb?) and I felt the frame flexing more than I expected (I had the big saddlebag but overall weight including the rider was under 200lb). 

Oh and I got home with low pressure on my rear tire, then woke up to a flat - lucky I made it home! Maybe I need to stick to pavement on this one? Or maybe the Shikoros (42) aren't as strong as I thought. I have some Cavas that I could try on instead but I thought those would be even more prone to flats. Thoughts?

[Abe Gardner]

Tires: I've got a few hundred miles on my protocharlie ("He may ride forever 'neath the streets of Boston He's the man who never returned, Poor Charlie!") and, dare I tempt the flat tire deities, no flats so far. Riding Schwalbe G-one Allround 700x50mm. Though I do run tubeless sealant in the tubes. I'd love to try it with 700C x 48 Hatcher Pass tires one day, but loads of miles/rubber left on the G-one's for now. 

Gravel: Been into a fair bit of gravel but nothing anyone would call single track. Not much flex, probably the same as my 56cm double top tube Sam Hillborne. I'm closer to 250 pounds and still, not flex worries. Certainly more flexy than my Cheviot, much less flexy than the rosco baby bike though (with it's unusual geometry it's quite flexy, especially with a child seat on the back). 

Pedal strikes: I have had a few pedal scrapes as I lean into sharp, low speed turns on pavement. Nearly identical to my Sam in this regard. 

Bars: I'm also on the fence about swapping from Soma Portola (wide, flared drop bars) to Albatross bars (probably would flip them upside down to feel more like Albastash bars, just better for my wrists). I'd like to run regular V-brakes as the short arm v-brakes (85mm) need a bit too fine an adjustment to keep from rubbing the rims without getting a squishy feel in the brake levers. That said, those short v-brakes are REALLY strong (loads of mechanical advantage). Very interested to switch to DRX v-brakes though. All I need is the time to ride and wrench plus ...

Really like to see you bars up so high - the drops are about level with the saddle, which seems like the sweet spot to me.

Great pics!

Abe

 

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[Jason Fuller]

I'll join in on the proto-Charlie updates!  Max - I think the flat tire is just bad luck, as those Soma tires are pretty robust. 

Mine's at around 1150 km now, though I've made it look like it's seen 10x that with stickers. It has been a good bike, and it has really clicked with the Albatross bar more than any bike I've tried this bar on previously (including my other two Rivs).  I have three Gravel King tires now; a SK in blue and pink, and a slick in blue. I've tried every combination now - and as proven by this photo, the blue just cannot compete with the pink.  I had actually bought a green Simworks Homage 700x43 to run on the front with the pink SK rear, which I think would be just right in terms of balance (but also color-chaos), but I just couldn't justify having 10,000+ km worth of tires on hand for this bike when I have a host of bikes!

Also, while it's been everything I wanted it to be for the purpose I bought it for (everyday errands and commuting but also able to handle any unplanned shenanigans), I know in my heart that it will be the first I'll sell if I feel the need to n-1.  I can use the Hillborne for the same purpose, just would have a little more pause about locking it up out of sight.  I like this bike but I like the Hillborne more: the Hillborne feels about the same quick to me, but more capable of carrying a load. Probably more about the setup, since my Sam's got a lightweight build.

[Pancake]

I put albatross bars on my Charlie, mounted them upside down and raise the stem way high. This gives me a better grip towards the front of the curves of the bar, but I also put some bar ends at the most forward point, so they give a on the hoods type of position as well. very nice for pulling on and leading down into the wind. Open to suggestions on where to mount the shifters, they feel pretty good mounted towards the center. I’m really enjoying the bar is mounted upside down, it’s just a more comfortable way to hold in the curves. I am on a Nitto Technomic, 10 cm extension stem, this leaves the hand grips about level with the saddle at the maximum insertion point.

V- brakes! Switching to the albatross bars, with cheap, avid levers, and nice DRX brake arms improoves the braking dramatically. It’s really night and day compared to calipers or the short arm v-brakes I was using before. The stopping power both better modulated and much stronger. But the weird, unnecessarily, strong mechanical advantage of a short arm (85mm) V- brakes is gone. Long arm v-brakes are the only way to go. 

I’m sure I’ll shift the cockpit around but so far super happy with the change (from Soma Portola drop bars and TRP RRL brake levers  with lite pro short arm v brakes).

Abe

[Scott Luly]

What tires are those, Abe?

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[Abe Gardner]

Schwable G-One Allround 700x50. Fits nicely, great for gravel and chunky pavement; very good on smooth pavement. Slight noise on pavement but only compared to Snoqualmie Pass (700x44mm) tire smoothness. I’d love to try Hatcher Pass (700x48mm smooth) next but thes G-One Allrounds are super (and cheaper by a small bit vs. Rene Herse tires).

I’m running them with tubes that have some Stan’s sealant inside - never a flat but currently a slow leak that probably resolved with the sealant since my lunch time ride. 

Abe

On Nov 15, 2022, at 2:21 PM, 'Scott Luly' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



What tires are those, Abe?

On Tuesday, November 15, 2022 at 01:17:34 PM MST, Pancake <abe.g...@gmail.com> wrote:

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<A3B1A5B2-3946-48CF-8155-370280D0D8AD.jpeg>

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[Scott Luly]

Excellent...thanks for the report, Abe!

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[maxcr]

I also recently installed Albatross bars (not upside down) on my Charlie, but I think I need to tweak them. I haven't installed my grips yet, but after a quick 20m ride my hands/wrists made it clear that the angle wasn't working.

Here is a photo of the process, I'll post the new setup once I have the grips finalized.

I do like the Paul levers / Paul v-brake combo, brakes feel better than the cane creek ones I had on the noodles.

Abe, would you mind posting a side photo of your CHG?

Max, always tinkering in Boston

[maxcr]

Abe, I forgot to ask, did you change the stem length going from the Soma Portola to the Albatross?
Max

[Abe Gardner]

Yes, changed stems:

Soma Portola with 6cm extension Technomic

Nitto Labarross with 10cm extension Technomic

Both were raised pretty high but the Albatross is nearly the the minimum insertion line (1cm shy) while the Portola was about 4cm shy of min insertion line. 

I’m a heavy guy with long torso and short legs, brooks B17 saddle almost as far back as it will go on a S83 setback seatpost. 

The Albatross bar setup is the same stem/bar setup I used on my Cheviot. With the inner bar ends I get tons of added forward reach to pull on or lean into, if I didn’t have those I’d probably want at least 11cm of stem extension though. Any less than 10cm extension and I’d worry about knee strikes on the ends of the albatross bars when they’re this low. And I wouldn’t use bar end shifters with the current setup for the Sam reason. 

My next move is to try swapping the Nexus rd for an XT rapid rise rd with a 13t lower pulley wheel (replacing the 11t original). The Nexus doesn’t take kindly to heavy pedaling pressure uphill in a low gear, it starts to skip. This is probably because I’ve got it way past the max gear size and chain wrap capacities (46/30t crankset, 11-40t cassette). If I was less heavy I suspect it wouldn’t be a problem, but I’m hoping the wider wrap/capacity of the XT rd will eliminate this issue. 

In the “hoods” (pulling on the inner bar ends) the Charlie is a rocket that pulls my weight off the seat to pedal harder and faster like in the drops or hoods. On the hand grips I’m in “sit up and beg” mode - very tall to see well in traffic and nice for standing up as I pedal uphills, but relaxed enough to putter around town for as long as I could want. The long arm (e.g., normal) v-brakes are just perfect and so strong I can’t imagine ever wishing for disc brakes. What a fun and versatile bike! These should sell out every time, it’s the best Riv I’ve been on (which includes: Cheviot, Sam Hillborne, Saluki, Homer, Gus, Suzie, Rosco Baby). Fast like Homer, strong and versatile like Sam, better braking than any other, swoopy goodness. 

Abe

On Nov 16, 2022, at 1:51 PM, maxcr <max.fai...@gmail.com> wrote:

Abe, I forgot to ask, did you change the stem length going from the Soma Portola to the Albatross?

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[Pancake]

FYI, after this photos I adjusted the inner bar ends a bit and will again as I putz around on it. I have some inner bar ends in the mail too which are like the SQLabs model, but these longer (150mm) bar ends are pretty cozy so I'll try them both.  

[maxcr]

Thanks Abe, that's super helpful. I'm coming from an analog 0mm extension (w)right stem and I used (I think) a 100mm Nitto stem near the the minimum insertion line

Next experiment will be to flip the albatross, I have long arms so maybe that will work better for me.

Max

[Jason Fuller]

Been a little while since this thread was updated - in fact, I sold mine around the time of the last post, but recently bought it back from the friend I'd sold it to as I realized my mistake! I rebuilt it similarly to before, but with a few differences such as a B17 vs C17 saddle, triple crankset with early 90's XT, silver fenders.. but the same bars plugged back in without so much as being unwrapped. It's truly ideal for my everyday needs and I was crazy to have sold it in the first place - now the Bombadil can be retired from commuting duties and as such, be reconfigured to focus on adventure and bikepacking. 

I haven't heard much out of Riv on this bike... wonder if it's still on the books?? 

[D D]

Jason,

Thanks for the update. Looks like a joy to ride. 

What is that black, rectangular contraption attached to the bottom of your seat tube?  

Dustin

On Apr 23, 2023, at 11:12 PM, Jason Fuller <jtf.f...@gmail.com> wrote:

Been a little while since this thread was updated - in fact, I sold mine around the time of the last post, but recently bought it back from the friend I'd sold it to as I realized my mistake! I rebuilt it similarly to before, but with a few differences such as a B17 vs C17 saddle, triple crankset with early 90's XT, silver fenders.. but the same bars plugged back in without so much as being unwrapped. It's truly ideal for my everyday needs and I was crazy to have sold it in the first place - now the Bombadil can be retired from commuting duties and as such, be reconfigured to focus on adventure and bikepacking. 

I haven't heard much out of Riv on this bike... wonder if it's still on the books?? 

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[Johnny Alien]

I'm still loving mine. The only change I made since my last update was moving to slighly wider losco bars. At some point I am going to throw on some paul minimoto brakes but there is no real reason other than having some Paul parts. It should still be coming from Rivendell but I am not as fond of the updates they made so I am glad to have the proto version.

[DJC]

I spoke with Vince three or four months ago about the Charlie project and he said they have it slotted for a 2024 production run. Hopefully this will happen, as I'm definitely interested in one as a daily commuter to complement my Clem H. The Clem is my workhorse and heavy hauler, whereas the Charlie would be my "fast" commuter.

[Eric Marth]

Looks great, Jason, and sounds like a good compliment to your other bikes. It's cool to have your rigs squared and sorted for particular purposes. 

Dustin — I'm not 100% but I think that might be a seat-tube mounted folding lock that has a cage that mounts to the bottle bosses. 

[Jason Fuller]

Thanks Dustin, Eric - indeed it's an Abus Bordo lock.  A little heavier than a similar strength U-lock but it's handy having it on the frame where I can't forget it.  I'm glad to hear the production run is secured it sounds like, I suppose the quietness is just because they're in the waiting phase now. 

[Stephen]

Jason, it looks like such a solid and perfect commuter, I was surprised when you let it go. Makes me want one, if only production models had canti posts... Its nice having a dedicated fendered and racked bike. I recently took off the front basket rack from my Joe to take it on some single track adventures. It was meant to be temporary but the lightened front end feels so good.. makes me want to have a different dedicated basket rack/fender city bike. Bikesnob had some similar musings about his rock combo and homer recently.

[Ryan Frahm]

Are there not going to be canti mounts on the production? That’s a huge mistake (deal breaker) in my opinion. These look like such a nice and fun bikes!

[Jason Fuller]

Correct; last word is that production will use long reach sidepulls. Rarely has this entire group been so unanimously in opposition of a design decision from Riv as their choosing to do so. I am very curious why they went with this decision - the argument that it's a road-ish bike and therefore caliper brakes make sense is a flimsy one.  

Especially considering how much tire the proto's fit!  For fun, I tried 650x55 (note: frame is 700c) and there was actually loads of clearance on the frame - at least 8mm everywhere. Fork was tighter but still about 4mm clearance. Not much reason to do this vs. a Susie but it was a fun experiment. 

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[Johnny Alien]

Yeah I think it had to do with the brake pull situation. Most road brakes won't match with v brakes which means if you have a road setup vs a mountain setup you would need cantis or mini-v's. Since there are decreasing options for cantis they were leaning on mini-v's but I guess they didn't care for the options there. So they went back on the "designed for sweptbacks" and decided to push the albastache bars and road brakes. This is all a theory based on some of the stuff I remember reading from them.

[Pancake]

Love mine with v-brakes - that’s what makes it perfect to me really so I’m thrilled I got a prototype. But they’re right about mini-v-brakes just not quite working. I tried 4 different models with different arm lengths (82-90mm) and it was never right: too much pull required to get pad to rim contact, but then too much mechanical advantage so very limited modulation. 

But with standard v-brakes (with linear pull / long pull) the bike shines. Modulation but also super stopping power that caliper and sidepull brakes can’t match. That’s why it is replacing my Sam instead of the Sam getting brake mounts welded on. 

I’ve probably put 2,000 miles of this bike and it’s almost always my go to: commuting or dirt or a century ride - I’d be happy with the proto-Charlie for any of those! 

Inverted albatross bars are perfect for 22.2mm v-brake lever clamps while giving a super shallow drop position. Bar ends mounted forward in the curve of the albatross bars gives a hood-like position I love too.

[Tony Lockhart]

Solid bike---glad that you got it back. I'm liking that drivetrain with the triple up front; you can tackle anything with this bike.

[Eric Marth]

Ah, dag, I know we talked about the brake mounts before but I forgot all about it. 

Definitely wish the production run was set up for canti posts! 

[Joe Bernard]

I would have to agree with that thinking, the number of "use v-brakes and sweptback bars" frames in the lineup is already extensive. I don't think the Gallop benefits (from a marketing perspective) from moving closer to the Hillborne's mission. 

[Piaw Na]

I'm one of the few people who prefer sidepulls over cantis or v-brakes. I bought one of the last Cheviots, which had sidepull caliper brakes for my wife. I wouldn't have bought it if it had required V-brakes or Cantis as I have never been able to even replace brake pads on those without causing squeal. I actually think that Disc brakes are better than either of those for my riding style, though not as good as sidepulls. In any case, as Joe pointed out --- there are plenty of canti or v-brake bikes in the Rivendell lineup. No need to begrudge us sidepull fans 3 models.

[lconley]

I remember back in the days before V-brakes and disc brakes when numerous cyclo-tourists and Tour de France racers were going over cliffs on mountain descents because sidepulls and centerpulls don't work - NOT.  

But I do remember when you adjusted the toe-in of your brake pad by twisting the caliper arms with a big crescent wrench in order to eliminate squeal.

Laing

[Johnny Alien]

I have zero issues with the effectiveness of sidepulls. I used them for years and years. I just think that the cantiposts gives you a lot more options for brakes (cant's, v, or mini-v) AND allow for using larger tires.

[greenteadrinkers]

Not to totally change the conversation around brake preferences, but I thought Jason pointed out a few things I find exciting about the Charlie H Gallop. A "scrawny Hillibike" and "650b for the middle sizes". Maybe a little down the road, the Charlie H Gallop could become a template for another design, envisioning something in the spirit of the Atlantis or Appaloosa but droop tubed. Maybe a scrawny Susie, more road-friendly but still rough trail able. Charlie H Gallop's brawnier sibling? I know getting ahead of things here, but love the direction Charlie H Gallop is pointing.

Scott

[Eric Daume]

In my experience, sidepulls are great as long as you only ride in the dry and don’t plan on any emergency stops. 

Eric

Not a caliper fan

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[Jason Fuller]

Phew, heated brake debate! There isn't much else to talk about with the Charlie since we have no recent news, so it's a good use of this thread perhaps. 

I should clarify: I don't mind side-pull/caliper brakes from a performance standpoint, although the longer reach models required on this bike are not as good as medium and short reach models. For me it was the limitations that caliper brakes put on tire & fender clearance that is unfortunate. But the CHG is meant to be a road and light gravel bike so fitting even 38mm tires with fenders is fine in reality. I'm also using this bike in rain and snow so I wanted the extra power of V's as well as the extra fender clearance for knobby winter tires. But those are beyond the typical use-cases for this bike. 

I totally see the caliper-lover's point of view on this - there are a lot more canti stud Rivs than caliper Rivs these days. No doubt calipers look a little sleeker on a roadish bike too. Maybe as Scott suggests we'll see a "middle ground" swoop tube model in the future between the CHG and the Hillibikes. Wait ... that's basically the Platypus. Yeah, that's further support that the CHG probably should be caliper brake. I concede. 

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[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

I will say that when I got my Roadini setup, I was surprised by how much better the brakes felt than my medium reach touring bike. At first, I attributed it to the fancy Shimano brake cables I got for the Roadini. Then I realized that I hadn't replaced the brake cables on my touring bike for 15 years! That tells you how trouble free those brakes are. I've descended Stelvio in the rain on those sidepull calipers, overtaking people with disc brakes equipped fancy bikes. The only thing you have to do is to run Kool-Stop Salmon pads. I think all too often cyclists think that equipment "upgrades" are needed, but lots of riding and practice is what you need to develop judgement and bike handling skills. I've descended roads where I braked so hard that I lifted the rear wheel on every corner --- with caliper brakes. It doesn't matter how much  better your brakes are --- braking harder than that would simply cause you to endo, so I feel no need for better braking performance. (I will concede that descending that quickly just to stay ahead of your riding partners reveals questionable judgement --- I've since then stopped trying to push that hard on a descent)

I also use medium reach calipers on my triplet --- on a bike tour, my 2 kids and I  and luggage weigh 320 pounds. We don't break speed records down mountain passes, but being able to stop has never been an issue, emergency or not, rain or shine. If you think caliper brakes are inadequate for you on a single bike, you probably need more practice cycling in challenging environments.

Finally, I have to wonder what people consider trail-riding capable bikes. I've ridden my touring bikes/triplet/single on all sorts of terrain where people were convinced you *needed* a mountain bike on. I'm happy to ride my Roadini under those circumstances. While there's no way I'd be as fast down trails like that than I am on my hard tail MTB with 55mm tires, it's also clear to me that I'm overall faster on the Roadini because you spend 3 times the amount of time climbing than you do on a descent, so a bike that climbs better and is lighter more than compensates for having to be more careful on the downhill and hence have to ride slower. 

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[Pancake]

The brake debate! Here's where my Sam's r559 brakes couldn't keep up with my size (too heavy, 250+ then) and the gravel/dirt downhill grade (-26.1 degrees) on our way to climb the fire trails of Mt. Diablo:

This steep segment is called "Crystal Ridge drop in" and there was a lot of drop! My friend (who snagged the Sam for me when it was listed on the Blahg) on his Homer and me on the sidepull Sam. We knew we were underbiking by a bit as a dozen teens on full suspension carbon bikes were flying around doing wheelies and looking at us like we must be lost in the Lime Ridge open space .

The r559 brakes (salmon yokozuna pads) pulled by TRP levers were just strong enough (I was pulling hard) to nearly lock the tires up in this situation. Never felt so close to the edge of the braking capacity before. I would have either lost traction on the tires and fallen if they locked up, or not been able to slow enough and fallen if I needed to turn even a little on the very steep grade. At some point I simply had to release a bit of my death grip on the levers and got lucky that I could ride it out to the end. My fingers were tired after that and my heart was racing. Thrilling to be honest! 

But on my Charlie with v-brakes (DXR brake arms, Avid FR-5 brake levers, koolstop e-brake gray compound pads) I'm confident I would have had better modulated and stronger braking power with nearly all the same other components as I've swapped them between these two bikes (including the Schwalbe G-one Allround 700x45mm tires). 

This reminds me that I want to put canti posts on my Cheviot! Though as a commuter the r559 brakes are plenty strong, sometimes I just want to take it somewhere steep ... or stop right away in the rain when a drive turns right in front of me without signaling. The main reason I haven't yet is that I wonder if the $200-300 in welding costs would be better saved to spend on a Platypus ... in silver apparently? ... someday. 

The Sam and the Charlie do cross over into each other's territory - that's why I'll be selling the Sam soon even though that double top tube in 56cm frame is something I'll never find again. A testament to the Gallop's speed and stopping power!

Abe

[Piaw Na]

I had no idea Sams ever came in a caliper brake version. No way am I taking my 320 pound triplet with 2 kids down the kind of dirt descents I'd take the single bike. But I have descended 20%+ grades on the triplet with mid reach calipers. But yeah, with that kind of weight I'd skid both wheels since the triplet never endos. (And yes, I've successfully recovered from skidding front wheels on tandems) Having said that mountain biking is the one application where I like disc brakes. My low end hydraulics squeal like a stuck pig but they've proven less maintenance hassle than Paul's Neo Retros or other cantilevers. 

[brendonoid]

I was 100% buying a Charlie until the brake change now I am 95% not going to buy one. I have never had a problem with R559s and have used them on quite a few bikes but their clearance limitations are the real problem. Wet weather downhill performance can be weak but it isn't a deal breaker. I want big slicks on a road bike and the Charlie was going to be that bike for me. Oh well.

Thinking more and more about welding canti posts onto my old sidepull Sam instead though...

[John Bokman]

@ Brendonoid: Wondering if you could not try Centerpulls on your Sam? They can be mighty effective. You could always braze on posts (I have done this on my Sam for the record) if the Centerpulls don't do it for you.

John

[Steve]

A question for any Proto Charlie riders who may also have some experience with the Platy.

I'm honing in on my FIRST Riv and have.narrowed  the field to the Platypus vs the upcoming Charlie H.

I recognize that the Platy frameset (either brazed or lugged) is a step above the TIG'd  Charlie, and that the latter is destined for side pull brakes. Having said that, I do find Charlie's lines more fetching.

I'll be building the bike up for riding predominantly on smooth surfaces - paved roads and hard packed rail trails. Also thinking full fenders over 38 or 40 mm tires - 700c or 650b. Bars maybe a cm above the seat (with flexibility to raise them more if needed in the future). It will be mostly a day rider but could see some light "credit card" touring. I'll probably want to mount a rando style front  rack and run a wide range 2x9.

Me; 165lbs, PBH 81cm, seat height ~ 68.5 cm

Opinions? I'd love to hear from anyone who knows these two models. Thanks!

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

I test rode a Charlie with sidepull brakes last year when my Ti touring frame broke and Grant loaned it to me for a week. It rides very similarly to the Cheviot (which is the sidepull version of the Platypus), so in terms of riding I think it can do anything the Platypus can do. The bike Grant lent me had swept back bars, and I rode it on and off road and with the 42mm tires it felt very plush.

It is probably overkill for day riding on smooth roads and light credit card touring, but I probably like underbiking more than most. For instance, I would consider the Roadini with 32mm tires a bit overkill for a 3 week tour of the alps -- the bigger tires slow steering enough to reduce my enjoyment of the descents.  My bike in this picture (https://photos.app.goo.gl/QQeP7phjn8wkscLG6) had 25mm tires, and I was happy to ride it on that trail. (and yes, maybe that's why my touring bikes break)

On the other hand, it's the kind of bike I wouldn't hesitate to ride down what others would call mountain biking trails that require suspension, so it could very well invite you to do more than you think you can. Before my wife acquired her mountain bike, I put 1.75mm tires on her Cheviot and she treated it like a mountain bike. I will note that after she acquired a dual suspension MTB she said she didn't know how she got by riding the Cheviot down those trails I was taking her and the kids on.

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[Steve]

Thanks Piaw - I appreciate the input. I may have to add the Cheviot to my watch list. When I began seriously looking at Rivendells I was thinking a Roadini - but then gravitated toward the sloping TT models - especially the curvier ones - out of a desire for something a bit different  from my current (& previous) bikes. 

BTW, after checking your "mountain biking" pic, I have to say, you're crazy (in the best way).

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[Pancake]

Photos of Cheviot, Charlie, Sam Hillborne, Rosco Baby Bike, Gus, a Homer.

I've ridden a 60cm Cheviot (my first Riv) for over 5 years and the 57cm Charlie prototype for just over a year and around 1,750 miles of commuting, hills around Napa, and occasional dirt bits of single and double track. I'll be taking my Rosco Baby bike out to Nevada City for some mountain biking this weekend though that's normally has the tamer child carting work it's built for. My PBH is 84.5cm and I'm 6'0", around 230lbs.

My Cheviot and Charlie are setup with the same drive train almost: 46/30 double in front and 11-40 9 or 10 speed cassette in back with friction shifting and clutch derailers (GRX rx810 on the Charlie, SRAM GX long on the Cheviot). I should write a whole post about the wonderful discovery of the GRX RX810, it's what every bike I've ever had was missing for a rock solid drivetrain. 

I've ridden a Sam Hillborne for maybe 3 years too - but the Charlie is replacing it (watch for a double top tube 56cm Hillborne to be for sale soon). Though they're not the same (the Charlie is longer, swoopier, and flexier) the Cheviot is setup to for mostly commuting while the Sam was my bike for longer, sometimes faster rides. I mostly had it with drop bars but received it with Boscos and ultimately switched to Mustache bars.

 

The Cheviot and Charlie don't cross over in some important way, but to start with the similarities:

1. Mine are both orange. Just the luck of the draw.

2. They're both long ... nearly the same length surprisingly. This makes for a smoothed out ride I really enjoy.

3. They both feel best with upright bars - drop bars on the Charlie were good and comfy like on the Sam, but the Charlie is just more comfortable with more upright bars and I wouldn't say that about the Sam. 

4. They'll both have sidepull brakes - this is a downside for me as I want for the stopping power of v-brakes and only the mighty Proto-Charlie has them ... and the Platypus!

But Charlie and the Chev are different in important ways for me:
a. Need Charlie's v-brakes, just a personal thing. The Cheviot's sidepull r559 with salmon or gray (e-bike) Koolstop or Yokozuna pads are great, but not enough for the steep downhills of dirt I want the Cheviot to be able to take on a whim. They fall just short, same for my Sam (though since then others have come with canti-posts). 

b. Charlie flexes a bit as you take off with all your might! It's a pretty quick road bike and it feels great over long stretches. The Cheviot (and a friend's platypus I rode) are both a bit more sturdy - in fact they'd bee more trustworthy on more mountain bike single track than the Charlie just based on feel. The Cheviot or Platypus (or best of all as it's more affordable but less swoopy, the Rosco-Plat) are more better for bigger tires (the Cheviot and Charlie top out of 50mm fenderless, but the Platypus can take more, about 56cm / 2.2" according to Riv). That said, since my Cheviot is setup with 42mm Basketball tires and fenders, while the Charlie is set with 44mm Snoqualmie pass (and until recently, 50mm Schwalbe g-one All-round) tires and it more likely to see a long stretch of gravel than the Cheviot. If one would become more dedicated to mountain bike rides I'd pick the Cheviot though. of Cherlie

c. Cheviot is a huge Cadillac sedan, a yacht of a bike with creature comforts and fun for s240 with a basket and rear rack. Charlie is my ideal "country bike" that looks for gravel and dirt stretches or eats up comfy miles and fun speed, while the long chain stays still give a super smooth ride. 

Platypus has the rearward swoop like Charlie's top tube, and v-brakes like our Proto-Charlies ... makes a very tempting bike, great colors too. 

Rosco-Plat saves some couple hundred dollarydoos but loses the swoop.

Charlie has side pull brakes which are great for many but not me, otherwise it's nearly my ideal country bike. I'd only like to have the option for up to 55mm tires, otherwise it's perfect. That said, I just switched from max'd out 50mm knobbie tires to 44mm smooth tread tires so maybe I just want what I can't have. 

"I do find Charlie's lines more fetching."

I'd call plat vs. charlie styling a wash (because they're both great), but if you like top tube swoop it's gotta be Charlie. The Cheviot has a more straight link look, but's it's classy in a similar way but different style. I understand the production Charlie may have slightly less swoop though, perhaps someone knows better though. As is, the swoop in the top tube is great for dismounting while still rolling by kicking a leg over the top tube.

"I'll be building the bike up for riding predominantly on smooth surfaces - paved roads and hard packed rail trails. Also thinking full fenders over 38 or 40 mm tires - 700c or 650b. Bars maybe a cm above the seat (with flexibility to raise them more if needed in the future). It will be mostly a day rider but could see some light "credit card" touring. I'll probably want to mount a rando style front  rack and run a wide range 2x9. Me; 165lbs, PBH 81cm, seat height ~ 68.5 cm"

This makes me think you're better off with Charlie - more smooth stuff and rail trails, perfect. The sidepull brakes will work beautifully for your side and riding (with arguably better modulation) and open up more drop bar options if you want to try that later. I bet you can fit up to 42mm tires and fenders on Charlie easily. I'm not sure how Charlie would take a rear rack and panniers though, it has enough flex that it might change the ride up a bit. Though probably not at your weight and less so on a smaller frame (guessing you're a 54cm or 51cm?) where there's less tube to leverage and flex. The Cheviot handled a loaded rear rack very nicely, the Rosco Baby bike does not (super low swoop in top tube plus baby seat in front and kid on rear rack seat is pretty flexy). I'm sure you'd be happy with the Platypus, but more road and more flat dirt sounds like the perfect riding for Charlie. 

That was more than I planned to write - anyone who reads this far should drink a glass of water and go back to the link at the top for lots of Riv bike pics!

Abe

[Steve]

Thanks Abe!  You've helped me put another check in my Charlie column.  I ride a Ritchey Outback for the rough stuff, so it's definitely a roadish bike I'm looking for.  Enjoyed the pics.

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[Piaw Na]

One consideration for credit-card touring is that with the long chainstays the bike will be harder to pack into a bike case for flying on an airline. That was the consideration that tipped me towards the Roadini over the A Homer Hilsen. 

[Jay Lonner]

My Cheviot and Charlie are setup with the same drive train almost: 46/30 double in front and 11-40 9 or 10 speed cassette in back with friction shifting and clutch derailers (GRX rx810 on the Charlie, SRAM GX long on the Cheviot). I should write a whole post about the wonderful discovery of the GRX RX810, it's what every bike I've ever had was missing for a rock solid drivetrain. 

I’d be interested in hearing more about your (or anybody else’s) experiences with this derailer.

Jay Lonner

Bellingham, WA

Sent from my Atari 400

[Pancake]

Hi Jay, here's my take on the GRX RX-810 derailer - it solved all my shifting and hard pedaling problems though it's not rapid rise. 

On my Charlie I've used the Nexave RD-C600 Rapid rise and XT rapid rise derailers with this up to this point and they just skipped gears every time I pushed real hard with my 46/30 double and 11-40t cassette. This GRX RX810 is simply solid in comparison - I can't make it skip gears even if I try by pedaling hard as I can uphill while in too high a gear. I'm not sure if it's the clutch or a stronger spring (since it seems just as solid without the clutch switched on). I miss the rapid rise function, but solid shifting and pedaling were not possible for me with other derailers where 45t of chain wrap capacity is needed. The RX810 says it maxes out at 34t low on the cassette, but I'm running it on a 40t cassette with plenty of room to adjust the b-screw still. It also says it has max 40t wrap capacity but clearly can exceed that without issues. 

My Charlie has the following drivetrain setup:

Rear derailer: RX810

Front derailer: Shimano Claris double R2000 (IIRC on the model number - the one Will recommended in a Riv email at some point)

Cassette: 11-40t 10 speed Sunrace

Crankset: IRD Compact 46/30t 172.5mm (like the IRD Defiant and VO double, but a variant from Boulder Bicycle that is cheaper)

Shifters: Silver2 thumbies with the range limiting washer filed off

Wheels: SP PV-8 hub in front, VO casette silver hub in back; 32h, DT Swiss Competition double butted spokes, VO Voyager rims, Rene Herse Snoqualmie Pass (44x700) endurance tires.

The only down side I can think of is that I need to push a bit harder with my fingers when shifting - maybe I could back the d-ring screw out a little and solve this, but without a drop of blue loctite I figure a little extra tightness is fine. 

There is not much extra range on the shifter but it has enough so there's extra on both the high and low sides of the cassette. 

Abe

[Steve]

Abe, the clutch tension on the GRX derailleur is adjustable if you want to make the action at the lever a bit lighter. I've done this with a GRX with no evident compromise in performance. 

BTW - I'm running it with a 11-51 SLX 11 speed cassette with a 36 tooth 1x chainring.  Had to set the B screw almost to the max to clear the 51t cog, but have been pleasantly surprised to discover that it shifts just fine. 

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[Johnny Alien]

Here is my close to final version of the ProtoGallop.  Knowing that the Roadini was going away for awhile I just could not pass up grabbing one in that fantastic Dark Gold color and now I am building that up to be my road focused bike. That resulted in me taking the Gallop in more of a gravel direction. Roadini for road, Gallop for trails and gravel, and lastly the Clem as the most fun to ride errand bike out there. I figured I would give the Ultradynamico tires another shot, this time in the lightest of their versions (Race) and the knobbier Rose. They really are just beautiful tires but they are not very supple even in the Race version and they are not fun to mount. I have high hopes for the ultimate ride quality though. I say "close to final" because I think in the end I am going to throw on a set of Rivendell's new V brakes when they are released. So here's the (now rare/out-dated/never to be released) swoopy top Proto Gallop v2

[Johnny Alien]

Oh yeah! I replaced the crankset with a discontinued NOS TA set. Very light and fancy. :)

[P W]

That looks like it would be an absolute blast to ride.

Like a grown-up, swoopy, off-road BMX, or something. 

Have you taken it out on the trails yet? Looks like it would handle them well.

P. W.

~

(917) 514-2207

~

On Sep 13, 2023, at 12:25 PM, Johnny Alien <johnny....@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is my close to final version of the ProtoGallop.  Knowing that the Roadini was going away for awhile I just could not pass up grabbing one in that fantastic Dark Gold color and now I am building that up to be my road focused bike. That resulted in me taking the Gallop in more of a gravel direction. Roadini for road, Gallop for trails and gravel, and lastly the Clem as the most fun to ride errand bike out there. I figured I would give the Ultradynamico tires another shot, this time in the lightest of their versions (Race) and the knobbier Rose. They really are just beautiful tires but they are not very supple even in the Race version and they are not fun to mount. I have high hopes for the ultimate ride quality though. I say "close to final" because I think in the end I am going to throw on a set of Rivendell's new V brakes when they are released. So here's the (now rare/out-dated/never to be released) swoopy top Proto Gallop v2

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