Clem wheel woes: To rebuild or not to build...

[Sofie C]

Help! I'm stuck in analysis paralysis... I have a size 45 Clem complete that I adore, purchased in the last Riv lottery. I wanted dynamo lighting so I had my local bike shop rebuild the stock front wheel with a SON hub. My clem feels quick enough for me - I'm a slow rider, and the weight doesn't bother me, except for when I'm riding uphill, and there are a lot of hills where I live. Still, I have wheel fomo, and I can't stop thinking about how good the Clem could be if I were to put on different wheels than the stock wheels.

I'm considering a bunch of options, with the top ones being:

1. Get a set of new, relatively lightweight wheels without Dyno for daytime riding (which is what I mostly do anyway). Keep Clem stock wheels for when I really need the Dyno. I'd have two sets of wheels. 

2. Get new rims (Velocity Cliffhangers?) and salvage the SON hub - Rich can use the hub in rebuilding the front wheel. This leaves me with an extra Clem stock rear wheel. 

3. Be happy with what I have.

What would you do?

Sofie

[Joe Mullins]

Keep the wheels and change your gearing to make it climb easier!

Joe in Los Angeles

On Mar 21, 2022, at 1:49 PM, Sofie C <sof...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Joe Bernard]

4. Have your shop return the front wheel to a non-dyno hub. I think the main reason to try to drop significant weight from a Clem wheelset is to counteract the gain in a SON and headlamp, if you're pulling those weight-gainers out then it's probably enough to give your bike the sprightliness you need. At the end of the day a Clem is never going to be a superlight, you just need a little weight reduction boost on the hills. In my opinion. 

Joe Bernard

[Collin A]

Sofie,

I went through literally this exact conundrum not too long after I got my 52 clem in 2017. It sounds like the speed of climbing (and therefore gear choice) is not an issue, more of how it feels. Also, once you go dyanmo (especially a nice one like the SON, its hard to go back).

• I chose Option #2 in your case (cliffhanger plus a new rear hub), and ended up re-lacing the existing clem hubs and spokes with some lighter rims (pacenti brevets) and used them for my partner's AHH. It also gave me an excuse to pickup the skills of wheelbuilding, which is not as intimidating it seems.

The new setup made a big difference in how the bike felt, but I also used the new tubeless compatible rims to setup the clem tubeless, so that also had an affect on the ride feel (i.e. lower pressures and less rotating weight, tubes are heavy!). Did it make me quicker riding up hills? Strava says maybe, but regardless it did make the bike feel much zippier when climbing which helped me enjoy riding the clem on bigger days with bigger hills.

If I were to do it again, I'd setup the clem with even lighter duty rims, something like the Pacenti Brevet or Velocity Quills. When built up by a good wheelbuilder, they can make an excellent set of wheels that can handle hillibike style (but not reckless!) riding with abandon. The tradeoff here is the narrow brake track, something to keep an eye on as the pads wear down.

Hope this helps,

Collin in Pancake Sacramento

On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 1:49:09 PM UTC-7 sof...@gmail.com wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

Perhaps upgrading to really top quality tires might give you the performance boost without quite as much cost as a new set of wheels? Rene Herse tires can cost almost $100 each, but $200 is still cheaper than a new wheelset and -- if your present tires are mediocre -- might make more difference than a new wheelset.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/components/tires/650b/650bx48-switchback-hill/

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Richard Rose]

I go through these mental gymnastics all of the time. First, I was just recently looking at the Cliffhanger vs. Atlas thing. I was surprised that Velocity shows the Cliffhanger is actually heavier than the Atlas? My Clem came with the Cliffhanger wheels. They are sturdy & I like them. But they are heavy - as is the Clem. That said, if I wanted to ride this bike exclusively on pavement & not loaded I would be in the market for lighter wheels & tires. I think one could save easily 2 pounds of rotational weight which would be noticeable. Might be the only way to remove meaningful weight from a Clem? One scenario might be a set of Velocity wheels utilizing their Quill rim. Those wheels combined with perhaps a 38mm - 42mm tire would, I think, save at least two pounds though I have not confirmed the numbers. But it is a significant cost. Nearly $1k for the wheelset alone.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2022, at 5:44 PM, Collin A <collinm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sofie,

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[Sofie C]

Wow, thank you Joe, Joe B, Collin, Patrick, and Richard for such helpful responses. 

Joe: Touche! I've also thought about spending more of my energy on strengthening my legs - maybe then the hills won't feel so cumbersome!

Joe B: That's an interesting option 4! Good point about the weight of the dyno hub being substantial.

Collin: It's funny you mention your partner's AHH... I have no faith in my ability to learn wheel building at this point in my life, but I did nearly use this conundrum to rationalize acquiring a Rivendell frame for my husband to make use of the current wheels. Did you end up keeping a dynamo hub on the front wheel of your clem?

Patrick: I've considered trying some new tires, and have been eyeing some from RH. I currently have Schwalbe G-One Evolution tires, and they're 57mm, so perhaps I should try some lighter tires. I love the cush of the G-Ones, but they are probably more robust than I need.

Richard: It's nice to hear I'm not alone in practicing "mental gymnastics" around my Clem! I will check out the Quills too, though they are likely out of my budget... I was thinking about an option like Cliffhanger rims with a decent, non-dyno hub and lighter tires, which would set me back by more like $600... 

 

Does anyone keep more than one set of wheels for one bike or is that utterly ridiculous?

[Garth]

As long gravity(the grave) remains a foe ..... gravity will have it's way. It doesn't matter if you lighten the load ..... only want your little morsel .....that there is still a load at all in the first place.... anything to contend with ..... a foe ....that's what's called "gravity". A force, presence or power that can't be contended with ..... like drive-by sarcasm always reminding you of what's "to come" just when you think you're making "progress.

HaH !   Well that's the story ...... made up on the instant...... and so it goes with bike riding.... and all of "human" living. All those stories we tell ourselves ..... do this, no don't do that .... can't you read that darn sign .... "do not enter" .... "you don't belong .... you're too slow .... too heavy .... too weak .... too old ...... too poor .....you're not enough this that and the other .....".   If you buy into it ...... you actually believe you can "improve" the situation ..... "if only" ..... I do this and that and the other. If only I pay ...... monetarily or in thoughts and acts. It's a game that offers no escape .... only prison .... ... all played out int he snap of a finger .... the blink of the eye(I).

All nonsense !  Tee hee .....

All is Wonderful .... all-ways. Anything contrary is "like a dream".....a "runaway train-of-thoughts" dashing to and fro no-where.

                                           (   (   (  smile  )   )   )

[Collin A]

Fair enough on the unwillingness to learn wheelbuilding. I kept a dynamo on the front of my clem, as it served double duty as my commuter and its just so convenient for a commuter bike. My wife loves her lighter dynamo'd AHH as well!

I do have a second set of wheels for my Ritchey Outback Breakaway, but they are my travel wheels which are smaller and easier to pack (650b vs 700 for normal use) and a bit more durable (alu vs. carbon) and not something I shed a tear over if they get dinged or damaged in the case.

Cheers,

Collin in Sacramento

[Richard Rose]

Not ridiculous at all in my opinion. Before I got the Clem I got a second set of identical wheels for my Jones. Both were set up tubeless, one with plus size MTB tires, the other with tires more suited for road / gravel duties. Key to this working was that they were identical including the disk brake rotors. This meant it was true plug & play - with no need for adjusting the brakes. That is the primary reason I will not be getting an alternate set of wheels for the Clem. I do not want to have to adjust those brake pads for different rims every time I swap wheels. I too have the G1 tires on my Clem. They have the less expensive “performance” casings however. Though I am enjoying the ride quality of these 2.25” (57mm?) tires they are 725 grams each! The Rene Herse Juniper Ridge (48mm) are I think 480 grams in the standard casing, and like 415 in the extra light. That’s where I plan to start - just getting significantly lighter tires for the wheels I have. Going tubeless of course could save a bit more weight. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 21, 2022, at 7:03 PM, Sofie C <sof...@gmail.com> wrote:

Wow, thank you Joe, Joe B, Collin, Patrick, and Richard for such helpful responses. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/67425c31-259a-4421-8f2d-926ca44066c1n%40googlegroups.com.

[Patrick Moore]

I expect that Rene Herse 42 or 48 or 52 mm tires will give you low rolling resistance, lighter weight, and plenty of cushioning -- even my 28 mm extra light Rene Herse Elk Passes at 55/60 f/r are surprisingly smooth over small bumps, and the 42 mm Naches Passes ELs ditto at 40/45 psi, 

Back to multiple wheels: IME, a pound or 2 or 3 really makes little difference to the feeling of speed, even uphill. Some of my fastest "feeling" bikes were rather heavy, and with rather heavy wheels. Tire quality makes more difference than wheel weight, IME. 

Also, bike setup and position makes a bigger difference in ease of pedaling than a few lbs of weight, particularly saddle position with respect to crank, IOW, torso angle at hips, which depends on proper saddle setback. A saddle too far forward, or a hip angle too small, can make your pedaling "weak" and awkward -- ie, you can't produce torque and it feels unnatural; I learned this 27 years ago from Grant -- long story often repeated. Moreover, a too-far-forward saddle will put more of your torso's weight on your shoulders, arms, and hands, and make your neck uncomfortable too, 

As for multiple wheels: the idea is not at all strange. I use to have bikes with 2 and even 3 wheelsets. For a while I would have one "main" bike with 3 wheelsets (plus a beater or two): offroad knobbies with wide range gearing, 38 mm road tires for commuting with close ratio road gearing, and "gofast" with 200 gram skinnies and very close ratio gearing. More recently my Fargo had a 700C X 60 mm wheelset and a 700C X 35 mm wheelset, with disc rotors adjusted so that I could just slide each wheel into place without fiddling with caliper adjustment, And my 1999 Riv Road custom gofast will, God willing (hubs and rims with builder), shortly have 3 rear wheels, the "main" one with a flip/flop 15/17 t fixed hub, one for longer rides in rolling or windy conditions with a medium ratio 2-speed internal gear Sturmey Archer fixed hub, and one for steeper hills with a wide ratio 2-speed internal gear Sturmey Archer fixed hub.

On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 5:03 PM Sofie C <sof...@gmail.com> wrote:

... Patrick: I've considered trying some new tires, and have been eyeing some from RH. I currently have Schwalbe G-One Evolution tires, and they're 57mm, so perhaps I should try some lighter tires. I love the cush of the G-Ones, but they are probably more robust than I need.

.....

[Patrick Moore]

And speaking of better tires: I don't know if Schwalbe ever made their Big One (pre-G One) in 27.5 X 60 in the lightest weight model, but if they did and you find some, buy them. I can tell you that the 700C X 60 Big One in the lightest model weighs quite a bit less even than Rene Herse extra lights: mine are 61 mm on 27 mm ID rims and just shy of 30" tall, but weigh only 450 grams repeated on digital scale for several tires -- and they wear very, very well. In fact, they roll as fast (judging by ease of turning the crank in given gears in given conditions) as the ultra extra light 175 gram 26" X 28 mm RH Elk Passes, otherwise the fastest "feeling" tires I've ever ridden.

[Alex K]

Such an interesting topic.  I think about switching out the wheel set on my 52 Clem L quite often.  It is not a light or zippy bike by any stretch of the imagination.  I, too, have the stock Riv wheels with the rainbow nipples.  I find it absolutely necessary to have a 5-rail Pass & Stow rack with a Wald 139 basket to hold my Sackville SaddleSack, which adds quite a bit more weight.  The GravelKing Slick 650/48 tires aren't meant for racing, but are pretty flat-proof in the city, and definitely faster than the stock Kendas that the bike came with. I consider myself lucky to have such an aesthetically pleasing, extremely comfortable, superbly handling, heavy-load bearing 2-wheeled Cadillac as my get to work bike and grocery-getter.  I absolutely love this bike, and the overall ride quality.  But there are days when I wonder if there is anything I could do to add a little zip.  Thing is, I also have a 52 Clem H with no rack, a 1X11 setup, White Industries rear hub and Shimano front Dyno hub (both on Atlas rims and built by Mr. Lesnik).  My Clem H, on which I'm running Ultradynamico JFF tires, Rosé up front, Cava rear, absolutely FLIES.  One of the zippiest bikes I have ever ridden.  Sometimes I feel like I'm floating up the hills in the Marin Headlands.   The difference between the two bikes is extreme.  I'd love to try a new wheel set on the L, but I am pretty sure I would be disappointed.  Perhaps step-through bikes aren't as zippy because of the geometry?  I'd also love to see what it would be like to ride my L with the exact setup that I have on my H, and I'd love to ride my H with a rack and basket, and a stock wheel set, but I doubt I will go to the trouble just to satisfy my curiosity. I've definitely seen L's out there that have been loaded up with camping gear, and it might be a wonderful bike packing rig, or maybe the perfect S24O bike.  For me it's the perfect city bike. I'm okay with chipped paint and I don't worry about my stock wheels getting pinched.  It may not be super fast, but it's comfy and reliable and I'm good with that.

This probably wasn't very helpful, but that's my experience.  

[Alex K]

Oh yeah. I'd go with option 3.  Be happy with what you have!

You can put the $800-1000 you save on new parts and switching out all those pieces toward your next Rivendell bike.  Because you can't just have one, right? 

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Hi Sofie,

I might choose option 3, but with a caveat. Let me explain.

Your Clem is relatively new to you. You are using it and discovering what kind of riding you like to do and how the bike best suits you, and how you can incorporate it into your daily life. This is wonderful! 

That said, I would be hesitant to change anything for awhile. Why? Because I get the feeling that you are still discovering what you really want - and that’s a positive and fun thing. As my miles have increased, I have discovered who I really am as a rider. I’ve ridden enough to know what I want and avoid the FOMO. Now when I make a change to my bike, I KNOW it’s in my best interest. I’m not against making expensive investments in my bike (which is well documented on this List); rather, I just want to know it’s money well-spent.

For instance: In 2020 with nothing to do and nowhere to go, I really stepped up my miles. My boys were older and could be without me, and I was yearning to find new places to ride. I got over 3,000 miles in 2020 and that taught me a LOT. I wanted more capability out of my bike, and that meant big changes to my Clem and adding a zippy Platypus. None of the changes or decisions I made would have felt necessary to me in 2012 when I got my Betty Foy. The Betty was set up to be a tank. Biggest heavy-duty racks Nitto made, biggest basket by Wald, so I could haul a dog and pull kids and bring picnic lunches and school supplies. It was my only bike, and it served me well in those years.

But Leah 2020-present is a very different rider. I wanted to ride in the dark and tired of dead batteries, so I needed dyno lighting. I wanted to pedal up the mountains with more ease, so I procured lighter wheels and better tires. I did my first club ride on Monday on my raspberry Platypus. I have started grocery shopping and errand-running by bike. It has been a journey and a joy to evolve in my bike life and I can’t wait to see where you’re headed in yours, RivSister. 

This is just my opinion, but you do as you wish! ♥️

Leah

[Paul Choi]

I second the recommendation of waiting until you really know what you want. 

If you do go down the building wheels road, you can try getting some wheels built by Pro Wheel Builder (PWB) in Georgia. I had two sets of Velocity Atlas (650b) wheels built and shipped to me for $650. I sent my own Shimano hubs (LX) to them because it is getting difficult to source 135 mm rear hubs in silver that are not super expensive (WI etc). 

[Sofie C]

Wow, thanks so much to all of you for the incredibly thoughtful advice. I'm going to keep my Clem as is for longer with a few minor tweaks... I ordered some extra light Juniper Ridge RH tires (48mm) and will see how that changes the feel. I'm also playing with the saddle setback (thank you for the tip, Patrick! And probably most importantly, I'm working on building my leg strength so hopefully those hills won't feel as daunting, no matter the weight of my Clem!

[Sofie C]

So, I put the RH Juniper Hill tires on, and the new shoes make a big difference! The Clem feels so much lighter and yet there's still plenty of cush and grip off pavement. Thank you again for all the great recommendations.