Gus or Susie?/Threadless Weight vs Quill Weight?

[David Wadstrup]

Good morning,

I’m seriously considering buying one of Rivendell’s forthcoming Hillibikes and am having a difficult time deciding between the Gus and Susie.  Would you mind weighing in with your opinion? So far, I’ve got 1 vote for the Gus, 2 for the Susie. 

As many of you  might know, the Susie is a lighter weight frame available for lighter weight riders.  The earlier promotional writing listed the cut-off at 165lbs, though the most recent email advertising the impending sale changed this figure to 180lbs.  It’s also stipulated that it’s not the bike for camping-weight loads of 25+ lbs.

I weigh 170lbs, and will never load whichever frame I choose with any appreciable weight other than myself. I’m the proud owner of a Hunq that takes care of any loaded off-road-ish rides, and am interested in keeping the Gus/Susie rack and basket free. It’ll be a dedicated, no load trail bike.  And I’m not a hard-riding trail rider either — no aggressive downhilling or sizable jumps. 

So, given my weight and purpose, which would you suggest?

Oh, also, before you answer…. one question for those of you who might have this kind of technical information…. the Gus comes with a threadless stem, the Susie with a quill.  It’s been my understanding that a quill stem set-up weights a bit more than threadless. Is this correct? The actual stem is heavier, of course.  But then the steerer of the threadless set-up will be quite a bit longer and heavier vs. the quill. Does any one known what the approximate weight difference is between the two? I believe I once read(maybe in a Riv Reader?) that the quill set-up weighs about 8oz more. For those of you who know, is this close to accurate or even in the ballpark?  I ask because the Susie’s lighter tubed weight savings is 12 oz, and I’m wondering how much of the this savings will be offset by its heavier stem.

Anyways, thanks for listening. Please let me know what you think and help stop me from driving myself crazy. 

[Steve Palincsar]

On 11/16/19 7:05 AM, David Wadstrup wrote:

Oh, also, before you answer…. one question for those of you who might have this kind of technical information…. the Gus comes with a threadless stem, the Susie with a quill.  It’s been my understanding that a quill stem set-up weights a bit more than threadless. Is this correct? The actual stem is heavier, of course.  But then the steerer of the threadless set-up will be quite a bit longer and heavier vs. the quill. Does any one known what the approximate weight difference is between the two? I believe I once read(maybe in a Riv Reader?) that the quill set-up weighs about 8oz more. For those of you who know, is this close to accurate or even in the ballpark?  I ask because the Susie’s lighter tubed weight savings is 12 oz, and I’m wondering how much of the this savings will be offset by its heavier stem.

Given that it's Rivendells we're talking about, the weight difference between an otherwise identiical quill stem-equipped bike compared with one with a threadless setup is entirely insignificant.  If whatever the difference is is something that matters to you, you probably shouldn't be looking at a Rivendell in the first place.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[David Wadstrup]

Ouch!  Steve, I’m a long time believer in Rivendell’s design philosophy and am the proud owner of 7 of their bikes. I was simply asking for help in deciding between two of their frames that are distinguished only by their weight -- 12oz or less. But thanks for letting me know my question wasn’t a good one.  

[Austin B.]

I've no specific knowledge of either frame as I don't do that kind of riding. 

A better question might be where does a gap exist in your stable of bikes? (if you have 7 Riv's you may not have much/any gap). You cite the Hunq for the heavy loaded stuff and that you'll go load-free with no extreme riding on the Gus/Susie. That right there would steer me towards the lighter Susie.

Perhaps the best question is what do you prefer: threaded or threadless? There are pros & cons of each. Do you already have a bunch of stems of one type, that might inform your decision as well as it would allow you to better dial in fit. Despite his prickly reply, I do agree with Steve that the minuscule weight difference of the headset doesn't matter.

Happy shopping,

Austin

[Garth]

 The larger diameter tubing in the Gus is functional for the purposes of stabilizing larger loads/riders. The idea of "saving weight" and it's desirability seems to ingrained in the cycling world that few question it. Do question it to your own satisfaction ! Does less weight alone really make for a "better" cycling experience ?  Really, better than what ? Sez who , and what makes that who any authority that you are not ?  Chasing weight is hilarious in so many ways, among them few consider the one actually riding the bike !  

In gest .....Oh, what about that water and bottles ?  Oh ... that's gotta go !  Food ? Nope, there's no place for that , either carrying it or even eating it. Lightweight cycling runs on "ether" you know !!!  Clothing ? Not even !!!!   Ahahaahahaha !  

Seriously though,  I only consider the bar/stem combo I'll be using. If I was surely going to use a certain 31.8 bar all that's need is a 31.8 threadless stem. What height and angle ?  Do I mind having potential extra steer tube above the stem ?  Answer for yourself ! 

There are fewer 31.8 quill stems so if that seems like a good idea one better know what's really available beforehand. A threadless quill adapter allows for all use with any threadless stem. Usable quill heights range from very little to quite high.. I've used the VO/Genetic brand one for years and I don't even think about. 

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

Sounds like your description mirrors the Susie ad copy rather closely...

I think it's very cool Riv is introducing an updated design specifically for trail riding!

[ctifusion]

Weight may not be a primary consideration for Riv riders but there's no reason to ride a heavier bike if there is an option for a lighter one, especially as the OP has clearly described his plan to ride this for sport without bags and racks. How about we keep the tone friendly?

I'd say go for the lighter one unless you think you'll like the stiffer ride that I assume comes with the heavier tubing and threadless. For me, threadless frames are stiffer on the rough stuff.

Brynnar

[ted]

I suggest you base your choice on non weight factors.
E.g.
Which head badge do you like better,
Which name do you like better,
Which stem style do you prefer (for reasons like ease of adjustment, security of clamping, availability of stems, etc)
What the seat post diameter is, and are there posts you like with that diameter?
etc.

That said, yes rbw suggested weight difference between quill and threadless setups is in the ballpark. However specific component choices matter if you are counting ounces (or grams), which stem and bar you use can save (or add) a few to several ounces.

[Abcyclehank]

100%. Susie

I have had many discussions with Grant and Will on the variables you are inquiring about other than the stem.

I am grabbing one of each Gus for 51 year old me, Susie 26 year old son.

He is 180-185 who intends to use exactly like you.
Whereas I am 220-230 who intends to use it exactly like you also.
Unlike you I have Bombadils for loafed touring.

Enjoy your new bike.

Sincerely,
Ryan Hankinson
West Michigan

[Dorothy C]

Will both styles be fillet brazed?

[Abcyclehank]

Yes no tigged versions last I heard.
Although that was the original plan.

[John G.]

I read OP’s question to be more about overall rider weight recommendations, rather than weight difference between threaded and threadless steerers. In my totally unprofessional opinion, you’d be fine on a Susie. I have 20 lbs on you, and I might go with a Susie just so a) I have a bike with my mom’s nickname and b) I prefer threaded steerers.

[Bill Lindsay]

The OP asked a number of questions.  Here are my answers to those questions:

1. So, given my weight and purpose, which would you suggest?

Given your weight and purpose I would suggest the Susie

2. It’s been my understanding that a quill stem set-up weights a bit more than threadless. Is this correct? 

Yes it is

3.  Does any one known what the approximate weight difference is between the two? 

Yes I do.  Given that the frame and fork are already constructed, and assuming you'll go for the same fit using the identical handlebar with either conceptual build, then the only three components that are different are the headset, the stem and the steertube length.  Headsets all weigh roughly 100 grams.  Really really light ones weigh under 90g.  Super heavy ones maybe weigh 140g.  The headset for the Gus will be 1-1/8" (heavier) and threadless (lighter).  The headset for the Susie will be 1" (lighter) and threaded (heavier).  I'd put that difference at 1 ounce or less, all told, and my guess is that it will be the Gus headset that is lighter by let's call it 15g.  The steertube for the Gus will be 1-1/8" and will be 25-75mm longer, depending on where you are running your bars.  1-1/8" threadless steerers weigh about 1 gram per millimeter.  So the Gus fork steerer will be 25-75 grams heavier. The stem you run on the Gus will be threadless.  A light mountain bike stem may be 150g.  Something like a Nitto Bullmoose threadless stem is more like 220g.  A Nitto Technomic Deluxe or dirt drop quill stem weighs about 300g.  So, it depends but you could conceive of a Gus setup weighing up to 200g less than a Susie setup which would offset 7oz or so.  You could also easily imagine a Gus setup offsetting 50g or less, making it an inconsequential wash.

4  I believe I once read(maybe in a Riv Reader?) that the quill set-up weighs about 8oz more. For those of you who know, is this close to accurate or even in the ballpark?

Yes it is.  That comment is almost certainly from Mark Abele's own work.  He is a racer and he is meticulous so he weighs everything and cares about weight.  On two hypothetical builds for him, he'd be comparing 1" threaded to 1" threadless.  There the differences would be somewhat more pronounced.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Jason Fuller]

Knowing little more about the two bikes other than what you've described, I'd certainly go for the Susie if it were me! It sounds like the more lively bike, unloaded, and if you're riding at a fairly relaxed pace, I think all the more reason to inject some liveliness. Plus, the additional flex I'm assuming it has will make it more comfortable over the rough stuff.

[Deacon Patrick]

I'm 200 lbs and ride my fixed gear Quickbeam on most everything as my gofast MTB, much as you describe using your future hillybike. I love it. So long as you ride "light" (unweight the saddle for the technical bits), you'll do fine. I expect the Susie is beefier than the QB. Grin.

However, I would suggest you may want to consider switching the roles of the Hunq and hillybike. I've ridden the prototype Gus for 9 months and it takes loads on rough roads, loose dirt, mud, rocks, climbs, descents, even better than the Hunq due to the long wheelbase and wide tires. My Hunq is my gofast wintery bike (it's converted to fixed gear) and it is brilliant for that. If you do go that route, the Gus is the way to go. Or go nuts and get one of each. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[esoterica etc]

Deacon Patrick! Long time no hear— it’s great to see you back commenting on the forums again. Here’s hoping we’ll see lots more of your thoughtful and insightful posts in the future. The web’s not the same without you friend. All the best,

~Mark 

Raleigh, NC

On Nov 16, 2019, at 14:21, 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/d03cfe8c-8600-4df3-bf49-7e021b13250d%40googlegroups.com.

[Joe Bernard]

David: Your question is fine, the only reason I even know there's a weight difference between stem styles is Riv mentioned it!

I did very short around around-the-building rides on both bikes at RBW a few weeks ago. I'm 195 lbs. and technically out of the running for a Susie, but it felt livelier and I liked it better, and that orange is gorgeous. And I like quill stems. Get you one!

[Ed Fausto]

Hi Joe,
What size did you use for the test ride?
Edgar

> On Nov 17, 2019, at 3:40 AM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> David: Your question is fine, the only reason I even know there's a weight difference between stem styles is Riv mentioned it!

>
> I did very short around around-the-building rides on both bikes at RBW a few weeks ago. I'm 195 lbs. and technically out of the running for a Susie, but it felt livelier and I liked it better, and that orange is gorgeous. And I like quill stems. Get you one!
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/75de021d-eed6-45d8-873d-73207ccd0e0c%40googlegroups.com.

[PaulS]

I am 165lbs, so close to you. If I were considering those two, I’d go Susie. I would appreciate the lighter tubing and a bit of flex when bouncing downhill. I’ve always appreciated the extra springiness of lighter steel tubes. Especially the fork.

Threaded, threadless. Despite the threaded weighing a bit more, as noted above, I’d venture to say Susie will feel more lively.

The only negative would be the name itself. I don’t know if I can ride a bike with Susie Longbolt down the side. Plus, I love the name Gus Boots Wilsen. Wish Rivendell placed the stickers outside of the clear coat like Surly.

[Joe Bernard]

Edgar, check the demo bikes Grant took with him to Rivelo. My recollection is the blue Gus had 29er wheels and the orange Susie 27.5. So Large and Medium?

[Joe Bernard]

Paul, there's another name on the other side of Susie. Wolbis? I can't remember..

[Austin B.]

Wolbis Slugstone

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Hmm...the name, the name.... I have thought about this issue many times and I think I’m finally ready to say something about it. I expect to get some harsh responses, but hopefully it’s not because you think I’m being harsh; I am merely intending to have a conversation with you. Pretend there is coffee.

Rivendell has fans of both the male and female variety. Clearly, I’m in the latter group, so that is from where my perspective is coming to you. Over the years I’ve heard plenty of comments like “Oh, I love that bike except that it’s a mixte.” Or “I don’t know if I’m man enough to ride the Cheviot/Betty.” Once someone told me that he wouldn’t ever consider a mixte frame (due to its feminine connotation and nothing else) until he was old and feeble, and EVEN THEN, he’d still try to avoid it in favor of a diamond frame. Grant obliterated the name Clementine in favor of Clem Smith, Jr so as to take gender out of it, but really, just the feminine name was eliminated and a masculine replaced it. That one hurt. The new Hillibikes are being offered with two names, one feminine, and it seems like some consider that a knock against the bike. To say you can’t live with Susie Longbolts (sp) but Gus Boots Willsen is great seems unlikely. They are both goofy names.

2 issues:
1. Why does it seem feminine names are polarizing? What is it about a mixte or step-through that a man might see as threatening to their masculinity? Is femininity seen as derogatory? Weak? Shameful? What?
2. Why are women expected to ride bikes with male names and not be offended? A man can’t ride a bike with the name Clementine because it doesn’t represent him, but a women is expected to ride her Joe Appaloosa, or her Clem Smith Jr without complaint.

Leah

[Bill Lindsay]

I'm with you, Leah.  Men who tell you they aren't man enough to ride a mixte are telling you about themselves, not about the bike.  Men who tell you they can't enjoy a bike named Susie are telling you about themselves, not about the name Susie, and certainly nothing about the bike.  

Keep speaking your mind.  I'm with you and would gladly be on your side if anybody responds harshly. 

Not that it matters, but when I bought a Rivendell step-through, I went out of my way to buy a Betty Foy.  When my wife bought a Rivendell step-through, she went out of her way to buy an Yves Gomez.  :)

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Jason Fuller]

You make very good points, Leah, and I hope you don't receive any harsh responses for them. Cycling still has a ways to go, like most things, when it comes to these issues. Probably stems from most people's lack of imagination when it comes to putting oneself in someone else's shoes.

[DHans]

Agreed wholeheartedly Leah. I’ve had the same thoughts.
Doug

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Thanks, guys. I’m glad you can see it from my vantage point. I should clarify - I’m perfectly ok with men preferring masculine details and women preferring feminine details, whatever that all means, and I’m not looking to make everything genderless or neutral. I don’t expect you all to start riding pink and purple bikes with lace doilies on them or anything. I wouldn’t ride a bike that was lime green and black and called THE DEATH STAR because it’s just not me. So, maybe I’m guilty of this to some degree as well. But I just don’t like it when things like a 6 inch long name on a decal or a sloping top tube make a bike undesirable, simply because it’s got a feminine connotation. Also, what is it that makes the feminine connotation a bad thing? I’ve been privileged to know women with unimaginable strength and goodness and wisdom, and so have you.

I think it would be nice for Rivendell, if they’re going to choose people names, to represent both sexes and not have customers being offended that their model might have a woman’s name on it.

[Deacon Patrick]

Aye, Leah. Someday, when budget and availability allow, our youngest two daughters will get their life-long Clementines, but alas, they will have Clem stickers and they are a bit dismayed at the prospect. I'm offended by the things people are offended by and the things they aren't. Eye rollin' sardonic grin. Fortunately, my lassies are feminine enough to handle riding a mixte bike named after a sewer rat named Clem.

When a man rides a mare do his bits shrink? Or when a woman rides a stallion is she less feminine? I'm too dumb to understand if I understand these things better than most or am hopelessly lost. Grin. Thank heaven I can put me feet in the stirrups and ride, whatever the name of the steed.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

On the mixte/step-thru topic - which is kinda separate from the names thing - I think there's some stigma for us older guys left over from a marketing angle prevalent in our formative years. I was looking at old Schwinn Paramount catalogues a while back and the mixte was literally called Ladies Model, a dude wouldn't have been caught dead riding one. Which of course is silly, we're talking about a toptube welded THERE on the seattube instead of THERE.

But am I a totes woke fellow who was always cool with them? Nope! I own a gorgeous Clem L now and love it, but in a past that probably wasn't as long ago as I'd like to admit I would have shied away from it. Cuz old guys don't change easy 😬

[Garth]

To me, trying not to offend anyone, offends everyone. Trying to please everyone pleases no one. It's as if being oneslef, literally being alive .... is never good enough.... so one must forever compromise one's inherent wisdom and peace and joy .... for the sake of "something else". Someone elses idea of how one oughta be, and those someone elses don't have a clue as they are only repeating what they too were told. It's all bunk as no one has any right or authority over anyone else, over Life Itself.

You know I once bought a used fleece pullover from Poshmark, sold as a mens XL. When I got it I knew it was different, tapered cuffs, scooped sides and left handed buttons. Leah knows .... it was a womens ! You know what, I love it and the detail to it, it has some style, it's not "squared" off like mens stuff. That it's a womens means nothing much as I see clothing for what it is, clothing. Whatever feels good to wear, wear it. The only difference is the cuts of the fabric, which comes down to style. I like style....curves and swoops and variation. The point here is a bike is a bike, the name is like an adornment to the paint and frame. The name doesn't say anything good, bad or anything else about the rider, the manufacturer or anyone. It doesn't make someone something they are not, or unmake what they are.... that they are.

Ride on ever smiling in all the boundless joy of Being 😀 weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee !

[Joe Bernard]

On the other side of my thought, I don't think this is a thing with younger folks at all. They grew up with mountain bikes that pretty much only came with dropped toptubes, that's just what a bicycle looks like to them. I suspect some of those kids encounter level-tube road bikes, try to swing a leg over and wonder what the heck THAT was about!

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

I’ll chime in and say that as a man that has never really identified with the “manly man” persona, discovering the Just Ride ethos was very satisfying for me. Rivendell is the obvious pioneer and champion for this movement since 1994.

Fast forward to Leah, Ana and Roberta participating in the forum (and in person!). My heart really does skip a beat. Thank you for being part of this little community 💕

Alex Wirth
Rochester, NY

[PaulS]

Yes, Wolbis Slugstone.

Yes, all funky names. Just don’t want Susie on the side of the bike. What’s wrong with that? Why are people getting defensive? That’s just my preference. If that were the ONLY bike I was after that had inimitable features I absolutely must have, then sure. I’ll buy it. But there are many other choices.

[Leah Peterson]

Oh, swoon, Alex! I’ll speak for this trio when I say we love you madly. 💛

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 16, 2019, at 6:14 PM, Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles <482...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I’ll chime in and say that as a man that has never really identified with the “manly man” persona, discovering the Just Ride ethos was very satisfying for me. Rivendell is the obvious pioneer and champion for this movement since 1994.

>
> Fast forward to Leah, Ana and Roberta participating in the forum (and in person!). My heart really does skip a beat. Thank you for being part of this little community 💕
>
> Alex Wirth
> Rochester, NY
>
>
>
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/-u5zH7CsTEU/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/314504c4-147c-40f8-b2a3-1b57693c062e%40googlegroups.com.

[brendonoid]

I was going to buy the susie purely because I have a quill stem bullmoose I want to use on it. Wont be carrying loads and only weigh 75kg.

I agree with others that I love all the names but i wish there was only one name per bike. Would totally buy the susie longbolts over the wolbis slugstone because its just a better name for a bike. 

Don't care about genders for objects, never have.

[Jason Fuller]

The Sam Hillborne got it right with only the unisex "Hillborne" logo - could/should maybe drop the first name altogether

[Grady Wright]

I had the opportunity to take a Gus Boots on an extended test ride in the Mount Diablo State Park. My test ride included all terrain types from tarmac to a steep singletrack decent down a rocky spine. My opinion is Gus is the most hili (mountain bikey) of the Rivendell lineup. It’s really a really fun and capable bike. I have also ridden a Hunq. I love both bikes. If both bikes were in my stable I don’t think the Hunq would be the primary trail bike. Gus Boots wins the trail spot and the Hunq would be the faster hili-country bike.
My thoughts are if you have a Hunq already go for the Gus Boots because the threadless set up will give you more stem and handlebar options that are up to MTB strength. For someone that doesn’t have a Hunq and wants a Rivendell with greater tire clearance then a Suzie is a great option along with the Clem’s.

Just my two cents.

Happy trails

[Joe Bernard]

Grady: Those are good points that I would need to consider, too, if I was in the market. I liked Susie/Wolbis better on my short jaunts in a direct comparison with Gus, but I already have two trail-capable street Rivs. To go for the full traily vibe a Gus would make more sense for me.

[Andy Beichler]

Is there a brochure yet where I can look at geometry, etc? I like the looks of the Gus (way too heavy for the Susie) better than most bikes these days and wonder if it would make a good all rounder.

[Christopher Cote]

Rivendell has made it a specific point to not post the geometry. I think there was a diagram with numbers leaked but retracted at one point, but not 100% sure on that. Rivelo just posted this info on their blog, which at least gives the top tube dimensions. It also introduces yet another version of the PBH range chart for each size that doesn't match previously posted charts.

http://www.rivelopdx.com/blog/2019/11/17/83pxriewy1hast2um9lep4qs34y70h

Chris

[Deacon Patrick]

Andy asked if Gus would make a good all rounder. Yes. Absolutely.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Chris L]

Am I reading that correctly, that a 57cm Gus has a 67.5 cm effective top tube length?   I thought the ETT has looked awful short in the photos I've seen but maybe that's an illusion due to most having pullback bars. 

[Keith Swanson]

I can see Leah’s perspective on the names, but I have to agree with Paul that it should be exactly the bike he wants. I understand completely as for some reason I do not particularly care for the name Atlantis so am waiting for a Joe Appaloosa (I prefer the head badge as well) although I think simply Appaloosa would be better. Silly reasons to prefer one over the other, but when committing a large amount of money, why not? I do think the single word names are better-it’s hard to beat Hunqapillar or Cheviot. For what it’s worth, I’m just finishing building my new Clem L.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/7c8e409c-efec-4279-b0c4-743d8584ae95%40googlegroups.com.

[Andy Beichler]

I found the draft brochure on Grant's blahg and magnified it enough to read that he did not want to publicize the numbers because people make ill informed decisions based on them. I can understand that but if/when I pay $1600 for a frame I have never seen in person, I need something to base it on.  I appreciate you post that link. It is helpful.

[Andy Beichler]

Thanks, Patrick.  I really like the looks of this frame.

[Weston Hein]

The Gus and Susie are showing up for me on the Geometries and Sizing page on Riv's site. Looks like 71.5 degree seat tube angles and 69 degree head tube across the whole size range. I really appreciate them posting this!

[Leah Peterson]

I hear that, Keith, I do. It’s a lot of money and a person should really love something to drop big money on it.

But if I held to that way of thinking I wouldn’t be able to get the bike I want from Rivendell. They removed Clementine and put Clem L. If I said “I don’t know if I can live with that” because I’m a woman and won’t ride a bike with a man’s name on it no matter how fantastic the bike....I guess I’d be Clem-less.

Instead, I’m living with it, because it’s a great bike.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 18, 2019, at 10:43 AM, 'Keith Swanson' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> I can see Leah’s perspective on the names, but I have to agree with Paul that it should be exactly the bike he wants. I understand completely as for some reason I do not particularly care for the name Atlantis so am waiting for a Joe Appaloosa (I prefer the head badge as well) although I think simply Appaloosa would be better. Silly reasons to prefer one over the other, but when committing a large amount of money, why not? I do think the single word names are better-it’s hard to beat Hunqapillar or Cheviot. For what it’s worth, I’m just finishing building my new Clem L.

> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/-u5zH7CsTEU/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/3375A7E3-DD4B-40C6-8B78-D1A2BF81AAF8%40icloud.com.

[Mark Roland]

Back when they decommissioned "Clementine" I wondered here why they didn't decommission "Clem Smith Jr." instead. But they probably sell more this way.

To the OP's question, I think the weight differences will get lost in the laundry. (Or the sauce. It comes out in the laundry in the end). Some have mentioned the livelier feel of the lighter gauge tubing. I wonder how much lighter a 27lb bike rides compared to a 27.75lb bike? Or thereabouts.

IIRC<r before the Clems came out, the plan was to distribute decals based on what you configured with the letters available--custom anagram decals. Correct me if I'm wrong. Might be something to bring back--I think it didn't happen due to a mix up in understanding, but maybe it's also too much trouble.

On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 1:58:34 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

I hear that, Keith, I do. It’s a lot of money and a person should really love something to drop big money on it.

But if I held to that way of thinking I wouldn’t be able to get the bike I want from Rivendell. They removed Clementine and put Clem L. If I said “I don’t know if I can live with that” because I’m a woman and won’t ride a bike with a man’s name on it no matter how fantastic the bike....I guess I’d be Clem-less.

 Instead, I’m living with it, because it’s a great bike.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 18, 2019, at 10:43 AM, 'Keith Swanson' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> I can see Leah’s perspective on the names, but I have to agree with Paul that it should be exactly the bike he wants.  I understand completely as for some reason I do not particularly care for the name Atlantis so am waiting for a Joe Appaloosa (I prefer the head badge as well) although I think simply Appaloosa would be better.  Silly reasons to prefer one over the other, but when committing a large amount of money, why not?  I do think the single word names are better-it’s hard to beat Hunqapillar or Cheviot.  For what it’s worth, I’m just finishing building my new Clem L.
>
>> On Nov 16, 2019, at 6:45 PM, PaulS <shin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, Wolbis Slugstone.
>>
>> Yes, all funky names. Just don’t want Susie on the side of the bike. What’s wrong with that? Why are people getting defensive? That’s just my preference. If that were the ONLY bike I was after that had inimitable features I absolutely must have, then sure. I’ll buy it. But there are many other choices.
>>
>>> On Saturday, November 16, 2019 at 2:50:39 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>> Paul, there's another name on the other side of Susie. Wolbis? I can't remember..
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/7c8e409c-efec-4279-b0c4-743d8584ae95%40googlegroups.com.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/-u5zH7CsTEU/unsubscribe.

> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

[PaulS]

The weight difference may not be significant; however, I've ridden stock frames (i.e. Surly) at 5lbs and custom frames at 4lbs.  Not much difference.  Surly is butted, but probably 9/6/9?  Or something like that.  Custom frame was at 8/5/8.  It was a delight to ride.  Felt so much more lively than the stock Surly.  

I don't know what the tubing specs are, but I'd venture to say you're looking at around the same tubing specs as above for Gus and Susie.  If so, I'd imagine Susie to feel more lively.  Just speculating....

[Garth]

FWIW, The original orange Clementine is PERFECT , just utterly the perfect name and color to go with it.  It is womans name, a fruit ? Either/or, it doesn't matter to me.  Calling it a Clem-L(in this case it stands for LESS the Whole name !) .... seems like it was edited to suit some agenda over their original wisdom in choosing the name in the first place. Imagine wanting to call your daughter Clementine, but "someone in the cheap seats" in the family complains because they consider it offensive for some reason. Press them on the validity of those reasons, and they go blanco and it becomes apparent they've bought into an opinion they've heard, heresay... which isn't anything at all.

I grew up with an AWESOME Mom . Amazing things happen when you trust your kids to be themselves, and she instinctively knew this in us all. That's strength you know ..... it's not about what you accomplish or don't accomplish .... it's about what you ARE ... which is THAT you ARE ..... in celebration of this utter simplicity and profondness , yes ... profound fondness... appreciation ....real LOVE ...  just for Being.

Being-Oneself is neither offensive or defensive, neither defends or offends .... in Love there is no "other" at all.

On Saturday, November 16, 2019 at 5:34:02 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

Hmm...the name, the name.... I have thought about this issue many times and I think I’m finally ready to say something about it. I expect to get some harsh responses, but hopefully it’s not because you think I’m being harsh; I am merely intending to have a conversation with you. Pretend there is coffee.

Rivendell has fans of both the male and female variety. Clearly, I’m in the latter group, so that is from where my perspective is coming to you. Over the years I’ve heard plenty of comments like “Oh, I love that bike except that it’s a mixte.” Or “I don’t know if I’m man enough to ride the Cheviot/Betty.” Once someone told me that he wouldn’t ever consider a mixte frame (due to its feminine connotation and nothing else) until he was old and feeble, and EVEN THEN, he’d still try to avoid it in favor of a diamond frame. Grant obliterated the name Clementine in favor of Clem Smith, Jr so as to take gender out of it, but really, just the feminine name was eliminated and a masculine replaced it. That one hurt. The new Hillibikes are being offered with two names, one feminine, and it seems like some consider that a knock against the bike. To say you can’t live with Susie Longbolts (sp) but Gus Boots Willsen is great seems unlikely. They are both goofy names.

2 issues:
1. Why does it seem feminine names are polarizing? What is it about a mixte or step-through that a man might see as threatening to their masculinity? Is femininity seen as derogatory? Weak? Shameful?  What?
2. Why are women expected to ride bikes with male names and not be offended? A man can’t ride a bike with the name Clementine because it doesn’t represent him, but a women is expected to ride her Joe Appaloosa, or her Clem Smith Jr without complaint.

Leah

[Mark Schneider]

Hi All,

Yes I did order a Susie today. I talked to Vince who was, as always very helpful. I talked size mostly, my longish PBH for my height and my large feets but relatively light weight put me on a large Susie. I'm pretty excited obviously.this will make us a 4 Riv household and my first long chainstay stretch limo Riv. My wifes Betty and my MUSA Homer and Atlantis make the set pretty complete. Now I just have to figure out which of my 11 other bikes to unload. I'm supposed to getting rid of bikes but the new Hillybikes have caught my attention since Gus first reared his big head (tube).

I have some Cliffhangers for it and most other parts, probably will get some Silver cranks and new shifters for it Have a spare Bosco but might look for an old Bullmoose bar of some kind...

Cheers

Mark

Pescadero Ca

On Saturday, November 16, 2019 at 4:05:14 AM UTC-8, David Wadstrup wrote:

Good morning,

I’m seriously considering buying one of Rivendell’s forthcoming Hillibikes and am having a difficult time deciding between the Gus and Susie.  Would you mind weighing in with your opinion? So far, I’ve got 1 vote for the Gus, 2 for the Susie. 

[Mark Schneider]

So I see some people don't understand that a lighter tubing =a more responsive ride and more give when you hit large bumps.If they make a lighter tubed version there's a reason. If you plan on carrying more weight (or you weigh more)you get the heavier tubing, if you weigh less get the light one if you only plan on riding with light loads.

The weight difference between threaded and threadless is insignificant. But lighter tubing should feel snappier and give more when you hit stuff.

Either way this is going to be fun.

Mark

[Mark Roland]

I understand the lighter tubing equals "flexier" "more spirited"  or "planes." I had a L'Avecaise with a 7/4/7 top tube, and currently have a Panasonic DX5000 with same.  My sweet spot is probably 531 with 8/5/8. My point is, both the Suzie and the Gus are OS tubing and likely not the lightest OS tubing, and it might be a bit difficult to feel the difference. But who knows, maybe not.

If I were getting a fillet-brazed HilliBike, I would go with the Suzie because I fall in the designer's recommended weight class, but perhaps also, deep down in that terrible dark place in my cycling soul that rejects the Just Ride ethos, in the hopes that it would be a tad snappier. However, I've been spending quite a bit of my limited saddle time lately on a beautiful red mid eighties Peugeot, and I can tell you JR is where it's at. And nothing much better than a HilliBike of whatever tubing with that objective in mind (or non-mind, or un-mind? No mind? Garth, help me out!)

[Garth]

 

Close enough Mark, there aren't enough words to describe that which is everything, including the word itself :)

My favorite ride, is this One .... it's Life Itself !

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

That’s a sharp looking Peugeot, Mark!

[Sam Kling]

I’d go with the lighter frame without a doubt. Rivs are generally very solidly built, and a lighter frame means thinner tubing and usually a livelier ride.

[masmojo]

I am a dude with a Clementine, in addition I have a Pink 26" BMX cruiser, a Lilac Polyvalent and a pinkish purple Crust Bombora so clearly my masculinity is not easily threatened, but I DO get quizzical looks & double takes. Personally, I like challenging people's ideas about things, so I get a chuckle out of it. My best friend on the other hand wouldn't be caught dead on a pink bike or a Mixte and even if he would his wife would overrule him so. . .
I hafta say that societies gender roles are assigned at an early age and it's not so much of a matter of feeling secure or anything like that it's just a thing that makes life easier for people. Cuts down the choices/decisions.

Personally, I prefer the Suzie, but I also prefer threadless. A Suzie with threadless would make it a no brainer for me. But, it doesn't matter ultimately because I have a Clementine so these are not enough different from that to make me jump.
It's fun to speculate though.

[iamkeith]

Here's another perspective on the weight vs. frame stiffness vs. stem type:  

I think I would probably prefer the stouter tubing and not-inconsequentially-bigger frame size of the large sized Gus over the equivalent Susie, but I got the later instead.  Ironically, I chose this precisely because of concerns I have regarding overall stiffness when paired with my intended handlebar selection.   Without having the opportunity to try the bike first, I'm about 85% certain I want to use Bosco bars.   But I know from experience that the aluminum version in a traditional stem is way, way too flexy for me, whereas the steel, quill-mounted, bullmoose version is just great.  

I'm probably not going to ride this as a rough trail bike (especially since I'm pushing the weight limit), but I DO like to use the leverage afforded by those wide bars for throwing a bike into corners, or while standing to accelerate.  So I'm taking a calculated risk that the benefits of the stiffer handlebar will trump the the disadvantages of a less-stiff and less-durable frame.   If I discover that the bike works or fits better with a different bar shape, I'll likely be looking to swap for the other model.  If anybody has had a chance to ride a prototype with bosco bars and has impressions about their appropriateness and/or cockpit cramping, I'd love to hear them while I might still be able to change my order.

Another general comment, as someone who already rides rigid bikes with plus-size tires most of the time, is that once you get to a 2.8" tire the "comfort" benefit of a flexier frame becomes pretty negligible. The tires, if aired properly, absorb the most commonly offensive vibrations.  If  you're relying on the frame to absorb "big" hits, you're probably pushing it harder than you should.   Conversely, it can be really annoying on a trail bike when the fork is so flexible that it twists in hard corners enough to affect steering/tracking, or when the  whole frame twists enough that your tire rubs on a chainstay during hard climbing or acceleration.

So in a nutshell, my experience regarding trail bikes with fat enough tires leads me to believe that ANY flex is basically a bad thing.  In fact, I think that if I could have made one suggestion on these bikes, it would have been to make the fork spacing 135mm OLN, so that we could have a stiffer front wheel too.  The 100mm-hubbed 29er wheel on my clem, which this bike will replace, has a lot of flex and shimmy that is NOT a good thing.  

[lconley]

I am triple digits beyond the weight limit, so I went with the Gus. The big question for me was the frame size. I am 6' and 83 PBH so I could have gone M or L. I would usually have gone L because of my long torso, but I wanted to keep as much clearance to the TT as possible so I went M, I also wanted 650B x 2.8.

I have been buying parts in anticipation of the Gus for a while. I have a Crust LD stem and 1-1/8 IRD roller bearing headset for the threadless forks, as well as Jones bars. It will be 1X gearing with a White Ind. crank. 48 spoke Cliffhangers.

Laing

Delray Beach FL

[Bill Lindsay]

Almost always a Riv frame purchase comes with a headset, so make sure they know you have one already.  If a headset is included, they may offer to give it to you separately uninstalled for future use, or maybe they'd do a gentleman's buy-back for you, and allow you to grab something else you need.  

Congrats!

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[John Johnson]

I totally agree with Leah; dudes should ride bikes with girl names too!

At the same time...Clem is short for Clémence, Clementine, or Clément. I do have several friends named Clementine that go by "Clem" (I live in France, Clementine is a common name here).

la bise,

john